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Live Sunday evening webcast right now on 2 Kings chapters 11-12 (verse by verse).
Link: http://azulweb.streamguys.com/calvary.mov
Link: http://azulweb.streamguys.com/calvary.mov
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Christianity |OT| The official thread of hope, faith and infinite love.
- Thread starter Fernando Rocker
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What I like about the story is who it's for. The first verse of chapter 15 is talking baout religious leaders whining about who Jesus talks to.phisheep said:
Finally at the end of it, the account is never really resolved. The religious leaders were the ones that were supposed to look to the Messiah and thus rejoice too when sinners came on board. However, by the end, the dutiful son (The one who never supposedly left the faith but did indeed lose faith) still has not resolved to forgive either the sinner or the father.
Jesus was giving them a chance to change their atitude, but by the end of the Gospels we know what their choice was and it wasn't a good one.
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A commentary on the Parable of the Pharisee and Tax Collector.
Fernando Rocker
Banned
Wow... great post, Game Analyst.
I really enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing.
I really enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing.
phisheep said:
I agree. I mean if such an esteemed Rabbi found out that Jesus was the Messiah through a vision, I doubt God would have told him to secretly code it in a note to be opened a year after his death. He would be proclaiming it before death and then be persecuted mercilessly like the prophets before him.
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A commentary on the The Last Supper.
Fernando Rocker
Banned
Very interesting reading as always, Game Analyst.
Thanks for sharing all these stories.
Thanks for sharing all these stories.
Fernando Rocker
Banned
One question... how are the wedding ceremonies at your Churches?
Chaplain
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Jesus Appears to the Disciples and drops bombs of knowledge.
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Alucrid said:
None.
The Apostle Paul sums up my views about following people (denominationalism):
"When one of you says, I am a follower of Paul, and another says, I follow Apollos, arent you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only Gods servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. Its not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. Whats important is that God makes the seed grow. The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work. For we are both Gods workers. And you are Gods field. You are Gods building." - 1 Corinthians 3
Triple Oceans
Member
Game Analyst said:
Very interesting take. Hadn't seen this scripture used in reference to denominational-ism before. I've always seen (and used) this scripture in reference to encouraging me that it's not me or what I say that will influence someone to follow God, but him and the Bible.
The Lamp said:
This is me as well. I believe anyone can preach the gospel if they have the faith to do so.
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Triple Oceans said:
My point is that we are all followers of Christ, linked by him, to each other and God the Father. I think it is a huge error to say that I am Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Anglican, or any other denomination. Jesus prayed:
I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are oneas you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me."
Calling myself anything thing other than a Christian (Christ like), goes against what Jesus said about all of us being united as one. Denominations put people into factions/categories. Jesus never said to this.
eternaLightness
Member
Yea I don't think I really liked the idea of being categorized as a certain Christian though most of my family would be considered Baptists. I agree, I can listen to different pastors if I feel they are preaching the right thing
I have a question for Christians. I was born Christian and had both attended Baptist church from birth to 17 and went to Catholic school for 9yrs. Something that had always bothered me is why does Satan appear to be as equally powerful as God? (Nevermind that I thought it was weird that if God was all powerful, why not just destroy Satan?). For example, the Devil tempted Jesus... how does this even make sense? When I was a Christian I secretly believed there were two gods (God/Satan) instead of just one, they seemed like two sides of the same coin.
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An introduction to the Gospel of John.
It's kind of important to identify with one particular group rather than just a particular person since that religion is supposed to point people to Christ. One of the more obvious prophecies Jesus and the early Christians preached on and on about was the need to be easily identified since the majority of people wouldn't actually be Christian, so the Christian had to shine in comparison. One of the ways they do that is by explaining Chrisianity accurately.eternaLightness said:
Different denominations obviously have different beliefs and if Jesus taught one belief, then it makes sense that only one group would have his backing- especially considering how different the beliefs across religions are.
The hard part is finding the right one out there, but that doesn't mean it good to settle or that there's good in all religious beliefs. not saying I know what that correct religion is (Obviously I like mine), but I do think it's a good idea to change views when a Christian religion is found that match up more closely with doctrine.
Triple Oceans
Member
Game Analyst said:
You're right and really man is to blame for this. Most denominations were started as a result of differencing of interpretation from the Bible. The reason we have so many denominations is a result of where people feel comfortable with where that want to put there faith at.
Fernando Rocker
Banned
What do you guys understand by the fear of God?
ServBotPhil
Member
Doesn't add up. The crux of the Trinity is that all three beings are G-d. Therefore, Jesus coming down and having intelligent conversations with the rabbis when he was a child was miraculous. The words dependency, obedience, and Jesus don't belong in the same sentence - He is G-d and he asks no one for permission or to tell Him what He needs to do. The Holy Spirit coming down was to impart faith - instead of having to believe in something invisible. "Holy Ghost goose bumps." Yeah, I'd say this guy a wakko.
Although I agree it doesn't add up trinity wise, his knowledge wasn't really miraculous. He simply read what they read which was public record. Plus, although he was approved by God yet because he had dedicated himself yet, he still was perfect (I guess that in and of itself is miraculous though).ServBotPhil said:
The approval had to be public for Jesus and the first Christians at Pentecost because everyone was either looking to disprove any messiah to maintain their position or looking for the Messiah as the genral timeframe for his appearance was near.
However, I don't believe the scriptures paint this scenario in a way that suggests that Jesus was simply getting his divinity back. He was getting the full details of what being God's son meant which would qualify him completely for his ministry.
I also appreciate the account because it contradicts a common view that if you are simply good you are saved. The reality is that even Jesus wasn't guarenteed his position until he symbolized his dedication by baptism.
The way it's been explained to me is it's a bit different than being scared of them.Fernando Rocker said:
Fear is another way to view respect in this context which is why so many worshippers are fine with questioning God even though they would never be stupid enough to curse him. Very few are concerned with repercussions as much as they are concerned with God's view on the matter.
It's very similar to a kid's view of his parents unless his parents suck.
ServBotPhil
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JGS said:
You make it sound like he was getting orders from someone else. I'm quite confused by the highlighted texts. Baptism isn't that important. Nothing Jesus did made Him more or less G-d.
Not so much taking orders as much as accepting responsibility. After all, he could have foregone his responsibilities anytime he wanted. However, once you accept respnsibility, you accept the terms of it. Jesus, as he stated, dedicated himself to doing the will of his father. This was particularly crucial for Jesus considering what he was going to go through.ServBotPhil said:
Baptism isn't nearly as important as dedication imo which is why it's kind of pointless when babies get it. The order is basically repent (Which Jesus being perfect never had to do), convert, dedicate, & baptism for public record of accepting Christianity. Jesus baptism was extremely important though because it was at this time that God responded to his acceptance of Jesus as the one would save mankind.
YoungHav said:
Satan is not as equally as powerful as God. He can only do what God allows him to do. He basically has to get permission from God to do anything to believers. He's on a leash. Read the book of Job. That would give you a good idea of how God and the devil operate in the life of a believer.
YoungHav said:
No, you misunderstand. God has allowed to devil to continue instead of immediately judging him as a test for mankind, whether we would choose God and his Son Jesus Christ, or live a life in slavery and bondage to sin, thus choosing the devil. In the Old Testament God says I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. Deuteronomy 30: 19.
In terms of how Jesus could be tempted by the devil well, Jesus had two natures; divine and human. Jesus was tempted to disregard God the Father's plan for his work by Satan in his human nature, but he also had a divine nature.
Fernando Rocker
Banned
JGS said:
I see.
Thank you for your response.
ServBotPhil
Member
Fedos said:
But Jesus cannot sin. Wasn't Satan just wasting his time?
Jesus was a man so he could definitely sin.ServBotPhil said:
However he knew about his existence in heaven and his purpose on the Earth making a successful temptation by Satan very unlikely.
However it would have been the most amazing corruption if Satan pulled it off so he had to try.
Triple Oceans
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ServBotPhil said:
You know if you really think about it, WE decide as to whether or not Satan is just "wasting his time" when we're being tempted.
ServBotPhil
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JGS said:
G-d is perfect; therefore He cannot sin.
Herpes Reasons
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GOD is a title, its not his name.ServBotPhil said:
ergo, its not some holy thing to spell fully.
examples of names:
JHVH
YHWH
ServBotPhil
Member
That's why it's written G-d. To symbolize it's something more than that.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
if the OLD and NEW testament writers wrote the word "GOD" in hebrew and greek with full spelling, pretty sure it would be ok by your standards as well.ServBotPhil said:
its was by jewish tradition that the names were too holy to spell out fully, the word GOD was always spelled in full.
Your assumation is that a word/title is too holy to spell out.
its not necessary. if you're not gonna spell a title in full, why not just go ahead and pronounce it the way you spell it. lol
ServBotPhil
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viakado said:
The word G-d goes beyond words. It is transcribed into text because that is how its translated. But, the word is too derogatory. It's too simple. He's more than just G-d. It's a matter of respect, like how the term isn't respected. Furthermore, it's our word - as in the Greek gods. It has become a weak word. "In God We Trust" - Which one? By saying G-d, it establishes a high holiness that is beyond our stupid language. "The man upstairs" - go ahead.
Edit: This is a Christianity thread, not an English (subject) thread.
I figured this was the best place to put a small snippit of my testimony. Early this year I lost sight of God and became selfish in my ambition and pretty much ignored the needs of those around me. So much so that my wife left me. During the following six months I decided to turn my thoughts back towards God and attending church again. It came down to each week I would pray heavily and each sunday after God would give me a blunt answer that helped me grow in faith. Then after meeting my pastor he told me that God wants her to return so we prayed. One week later again (a few weeks ago) my wife called and said she wanted to come back. Its been a hard process ever since with her still trying to trust me again and her fending off the advances of the guy friend she made when she left me. Its really hard now because I can't move in again yet for a while. In the mean time I've been trying to raise funds for a Japan relief that would also get me two tickets to a secret linkin park show (my wifes favorite band). I want to get this for her for a welcome back present. Haha but raising funds has been very unsuccessful so far. Actually if you are brave enough to check out the site for my part of the fund raising it is
http://www.give2gether.com/projects/music-for-relief.midramble/
There is even more to this testimony; however, I figured I'd put up only a bit of it just encase it only annoyed people.
http://www.give2gether.com/projects/music-for-relief.midramble/
There is even more to this testimony; however, I figured I'd put up only a bit of it just encase it only annoyed people.
JGS said:
John 12:39-41: "Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, 'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.' Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him."
Isaiah 6:1 "And it came to pass in the year in which king Ozias died, that I saw the Lord sitting on a high and exalted throne, and the house was full of his glory....And he said, Go, and say to this people, Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
John quotes Isaiah 6:8-10, stating that Isaiah said that specific prophecy because Isaiah saw His (Jesus') glory and spoke of Him. Isaiah 6 (the quoted passage) makes reference to Isaiah seeing Yahweh's glory. Thus Yahweh = Jesus.
The Gospel of John is saturated in such texts which demonstrate the equality of Jesus and Yahweh.
If you refer to verses, you have to consider at a minimum the whole chapter. It's the only way to get full context. John quotes two sections of Isaiah in the clump of verses you mention. The one you mention (which is why it says again) has to do with the attitude of the people in both Isaiah's day and Jesus' day. In neither case were a large portion of the people receptive of the message. If anything those verses denote that Jesus = Isaiah symbolically.Aristion said:
However, John 12:38 is dealing with Isaiah 53 which is clearly referring directly to Jesus and his persecutions by a hard hearted people. Reading that chapter makes it pretty evident that God was revealing his purpose through this twig, undoubtedly Jesus. There is no mistaking God & Jesus in those verses since it's clear that God is both allowing the suffering and bestowing blessing for enduring them.
I didn't mean to get into this debate but it winds up being inevitable with some questions so sorry. For me, holding onto the trinity as a belief opened up loopholes big enough for an atheist to jump through, so I read Scripture on what I view is the most logical choice. I understand if others don't though. I'm clearly outnumbered regarding that belief (& maybe eternal torment).
ServBotPhil
Member
JGS said:
The term man means he was encased in skin. He is G-d limited to a human body. Not limited in power or abilities. Jesus is perfect and cannot sin.
GhaleonQ
Member
Triple Oceans (among others) said:
While I obviously agree, encourage broad religious education (non-Christian, too), and think that even a united Christianity would do well to have a diversity of views, there are 2 issues at hand.
1. It's not the listening that's the problem. That's intellectual openness. It's affirmation of faith that matters. For example, as a Missouri Synod Lutheran, I do not believe in Catholicism. It's awesome and important, but I think it's wrong. I would lie and offend both churches if I affirmed the Catholic faith aloud. Likewise, I'm strongly, STRONGLY discouraged to receive communion at non-Missouri Synod/foreign equivalent churches. This is not because Catholicism or whatever is bad, but because taking communion from a Catholic priest makes me affirm (1 Corinthians 11:29) something I do not believe from a structure that I think errs significantly enough to avoid.
2. Likewise, denominationalism, to me, is intellectual humility. It acknowledges that smart people have already asked every question I could invent, debated them, and come to separate conclusions. Aquinas is a really interesting person and someone I'm proud to call a Christian, but he and I differ in large and small ways. Now, that I believe in Luther's and Kierkegaard's existentialist theology is not enough for a schism. That I believe in Luther's and Kierkegaard's interpretation of the sacraments, the canon, the proper hierarchy, and the nature of salvation is. To ignore them is to pretend that theology is less important than administration.
He was more than encased or else he wouldn't be born, develop, & be powerless prior to his baptism (Although still perfect). The miracles themselves do not prove he is God because people before and after him performed miracles as well- up to and including resurrections.ServBotPhil said:
Jesus is perfect because he didn't sin which is quite a bit different than your take.
Jesus is the equivalent of Adam prior to sinning which is what's necessary for redemption.
Christianity usually would require understandng that the OT in many ways foreshadowed Christianity and the switch from being a citizen of a physical kingdom to a spiritual one. It also requires acceptance of prophecy.Raist said:
With that in mind, there are many verses in OT that relate to Jesus- although I'm the wrong one to explain a link that God=Jesus since I don't believe that.
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