ServBotPhil
Member
JGS said:I didn't say it was required for salvation. I said it was a requirement for being a Christian.
But "Christian" is just a made-up title. True Christianity - what really matters - is invisible.
JGS said:I didn't say it was required for salvation. I said it was a requirement for being a Christian.
Ok so you don't really have to be a Christian to be a Christian then correct?ServBotPhil said:But "Christian" is just a made-up title. True Christianity - what really matters - is invisible.
JGS said:I explained this repeatedly and you refused to even acknowlege the reasons.
Originally Posted by me:
Isaiah 44 is clearly talking about idolotry. Isaiah 44:24 is discussing how God needed no help from foreign gods that other worship.
Sabatoge said:Wrong, there are 3 "Thus saith the LORD" in Isaiah 44
"Thus saith the LORD" denotes the beginning of a NEW topic/decree/act etc...
Isaiah 44:24-28 has nothing to do with idolatry...
JGS said:It would make more sense for God &/or Jesus to be the represent wisdom at which point you could have linked them together some kind of way. However, that doesn't work either since it's talking about something being created by God and used in creation which would mean Jesus obviously still fits the bill.
JGS said:You keep saying this but you are making a connection that simply isn't there. There is NO connection between trinity and Jesus & God between the verses you mentioned.
JGS said:If I were one of Jehovah's Witnesses...
Ah, so I did answer and you just have a skipping needle. Got it.Sabotage said:I refused to acknowledge it? Again, you're just reacting without reading
post 2549
This is true, but that doesn't mean it couldn't represent Jesus' role in creation that is verified in Colossians 1.Are you sure about that? Wisdom seems to be represented by a woman....
Well, if you think I'm lying about being a Jehovah's Witness than so be it. I capitalize Catholic too, it doesn't mean I am one. I just like capitalizing when using proper nouns. I brought up Proverbs 8 because it coincides with Jesus role in creation, just like Colossians does. I mistakenly minimized wisdom in the chapter, but it doesn't diminish jesus playing the part. Both of them fit better than merging Isaiah 44 and Colossians and than asking the same inane question over and over so you can restate you take.Sabotage said:Actually I'm leaning towards this, you deny Christ being God which jw's do, you capitalized the J and W, you brought up Proverbs 8 which no one was talking about and coincidentally is part of watchtower propaganda "Should You Believe in the Trinity?". If you're not a jw, then what denomination are you part of?
JGS said:I know. It's the only one you used to link it to the trinity. I'm only working with the material given and the other verses don't link with a trinity either.
JGS said:I'm not disputing this at all.
JGS said:This isn't correct. You are generally not Christian if you don't get baptized although it's possible there are exceptions. Again I couldn't find them Biblically. The general rule from scripture requires it. It's just that salvation is not necessarily dependent on you being a Christian.
I certainly agree that you can follow the steps toward baptism:
1. Knowledge
2. Repentance
3. Turning away from the sin once repentant
4. Dedication
In fact, you have to do all of that before you qualify. However, that doesn't change the last step needing to be done too. The difference might lie in the question:
"If you do everything that Christians are supposed to do, then what the heck is stopping you from getting baptized?" If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, & quacks lke a duck, why not let it be known you're a duck? If something is physically inhibiting you from the act, it's a different story, but those kinds of hindrances are few and far between and baptism is easy for ones who claim to be Christain.
JGS said:With the exception of the God is Son part which is entirely a translation issue, I'm not seeing the dispute.
For board purposes, I label myself as Christian only which I like to think was Fernando's intention to begin with.ecurbj said:Hi JGS, I'm new here kinda been a lurker for awhile and been following this thread for some time now but I have a few questions if you don't mind me asking.
~what denomination are you with? Or do you label yourself just a Christian? Because each Christian will hold an denomination doctrine or ways regardless.
Everyone with a belief thinks their belief is the correct one. Otherwise, they lack faith/confidence/conviction in what they were taught. This argument has gone on for a few pages primarily because ones are absolutely convinced that the trinity is true and they have enough proof for themselves to hold fast to that. That's a good thing. I'm just contrarian to the group so it stands out. Faith isn't based on peer pressure, but rather persuasion.ecurbj said:~And why is your interpretation of the Scripture true than anyone else's?
Again, why isn't that simply a conversation? Why does the trinity need to talk to itself? Reading that just helps me see that God's actions are carried out by servants or that more than he is looking down on men.Fedos said:It's not the only passage that indicates the trinity.
7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Genesis 11: 7-9
In this passage we have God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit confounding the languages of the people at the tower of Babel.
I had to doublecheck that one. KJV is the only one referring to it like that that I could find. Here is what NIV says:Fedos said:Also here, a passage which points to the deity of Christ: He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Daniel 3: 25
Since Nebuchadnezzar, a non-Jew and reason they were in the furnace to begin with, he worshipped other gods and would have not know who the son of God would be.25 Look! Nebuchadnezzar shouted. I see four men, unbound, walking around in the fire unharmed! And the fourth looks like a god[a]!
1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
I don't believe God is loiving if he has no problem torturing people eternally. This would be the case even with Scriptural support. However, the first punishment was death, the wages sin pays is death, & quite frankly death is more than sufficient considering no one happy actually wants to experience. Eternal torture is literally overkill and pure evil.Fedos said:Ok. But you said for instance that you don't believe in the docrtine of hell.
What do you believe in? Annhilation?
A baptismal pool isn't required for baptism. I've known people who get baptized in pools, lakes, bathtubs, etc... I may be a bit clueless on this, but is there any denomination that doesn't baptized either literally or symbolically (Like with sprinkles)?Fedos said:There could be many reasons why a person isn't baptized at the start of their walk with Christ. They could be going to a church that doesn't have a baptismal pool for instance.
That could be a problem although extremely remote, and I mentioned exceptions everytime I mentioned it as a requirement.Fedos said:They could be living in a foreign country (say an Islamic country) hear the Gospel preached to them over the air waves (over Christian broadcasting) and get converted that way. How long would it take for someone who was bought up in an Islamic country to get baptized, for instance?
I never dsiputed that salvation is by grace. However, it is incorrect that Christians were not expected to get baptized. You almost seem to be wroding it as a discouragement which I can't grasp since it was a Scriptural mandate. So even if I'm wrong and baptism isn't necessary, it's certainnly encourages by Jesus and the early Christians.Fedos said:Salvation is by grace through faith; placing our trust and hope in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. We're not supposed to add anything to our salvation.
JGS said:Ok so you don't really have to be a Christian to be a Christian then correct?
A disciple of Jesus. Someone who believes as Jesus believes.ServBotPhil said:What's your definition of a "Christian"?
JGS said:Again, why isn't that simply a conversation? Why does the trinity need to talk to itself? Reading that just helps me see that God's actions are carried out by servants or that more than he is looking down on men.
JGS said:I had to doublecheck that one. KJV is the only one referring to it like that that I could find. Here is what NIV says:
Since Nebuchadnezzar, a non-Jew and reason they were in the furnace to begin with, he worshipped other gods and would have not know who the son of God would be.
In any event, Son of God" oftentimes referred to angels. They use the term way back in Genesis 6:
JGS said:I don't believe God is loiving if he has no problem torturing people eternally. This would be the case even with Scriptural support. However, the first punishment was death, the wages sin pays is death, & quite frankly death is more than sufficient considering no one happy actually wants to experience. Eternal torture is literally overkill and pure evil.
The opposite of life is not torture, but death.
JGS said:A baptismal pool isn't required for baptism. I've known people who get baptized in pools, lakes, bathtubs, etc... I may be a bit clueless on this, but is there any denomination that doesn't baptized either literally or symbolically (Like with sprinkles)?
JGS said:That could be a problem although extremely remote, and I mentioned exceptions everytime I mentioned it as a requirement.
I never dsiputed that salvation is by grace. However, it is incorrect that Christians were not expected to get baptized. You almost seem to be wroding it as a discouragement which I can't grasp since it was a Scriptural mandate. So even if I'm wrong and baptism isn't necessary, it's certainnly encourages by Jesus and the early Christians.
JGS said:True, baptism is not a magic cure. It is a public display of what you put faith in...unless you are afraid of the repercussions. Not getting baptized is possibly a sign, with the exceptions you mentioned, that you aren't ready to commit to that level. Not want baptism is similar to not wanting to dedicate yourself to belief in the first place. Basically, dedication leads to baptism even if there is an anomaly that holds up the inevitable.
JGS said:Baptism is not a "work" anymore than knowledge is a "work" or repentance is a "work". Paul references baptism often and does so as an afterthought since it's a basic requirement although not a forced one.
You can't have fellowship with yourself. The trinity is 3 beings into ONE. One does not normally talk to themselves. There's no reason to communicate in that manner unless you are talking to another distinct individual. That's what I'm trying to get clarification on or else it sounds as if we're saying the same thing except I'm not entwining them since there's not a need to in order to reflect communication.Fedos said:It is a conversation. A conversation between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Love for instance, is not just true, but God himself is love. Love is an eternal truth, from everlasting to everlasting. And in the Trinity God can be love, before there was anything else. Fellowship is true too. It is good for man to have fellowship (particularly Christian fellowship). But the trinity being true even God has fellowship with himself.
Ok. No issues regarding this difference. I'm moving onto something that touches on this in regards to Michael. If Jesus can appear as an anonymous angel, then what's wrong with thinking he's the bos of the angels - Michael? This isn't something you brought out, but something that was taken issue with & I didn't realize there was a controversy about it beyond simple disagreement.Yes, son of God was used to describe angels in the Old Testament. So it could have been an angel spoken of here, or it could have been a theophony (ie a time when Jesus Christ manifested himself in the form of an angel). This happened many times throughout the Old Testament.
Admittedly Revelation and me do not get along and I primarily like reading it for the visuals. However, John makes it clear it's largely a book of sign and symbols to grasp what will happen in the future- something that was already very common in OT.But if you read what is written here in Revelation: 'And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14: 11
Death does not mean torture. Fire has never acros any culture meant torture. Fire in judgement terms, almost always means destruction since that is what fire does. Revelation 20 discusses the resurrection for judgement of the the dead (Where were they all this time?). Basically they were resurrected from their first death. After judgement, they face a second death if wicked. That does not mean torture forever and ever.And here: 'But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.'
Revelation 21: 8. One cannot but help after reading these verses that there is very real danger in losing ones soul of being tormented in fire. It even speaks of death here, calling it 'the second death.'
Justice is not torture. The debt paid for sin since Adam has been death. That's fair and just and people still have a hard time with that. It makes perfect sense why they would have a problem with something worse than waterboarding happening eternally for all time against their loved ones. That is a debt that can never be paid. How is that just?God is indeed love, but he is also just. Sinning against God is an infinite offense, since he is infinitely holy. When you die in your sins, you have to pay the debt of your sin. Since God is infinitely holy and worthy of our adoration, you pay the price of an infinite offense.
This is the point. It all boils down to religious belief. I'm not saying anything about your Church, but the one I left didn't have answers for why they did things. Again, if baptism isn't that important to begin with, I don't see what the issue is in doing it if it's Scripturally encouraged. You've already experienced the hard stuff. Despite my views of the trinity (I am in the minority), I am going to avoid debating particular denominational beliefs- especially since I don't share mine and the ones mentioned against JW's have been disturbing. Speaking of JW's...Well, I'm not discouraging anything. It's just that I've personally experienced being saved for a long time without being baptized, and I'm still saved. Still living a holy life, still suffering as a Christian can only suffer (persecution by the devil for instance--that's not to say that all Christians are attacked of the devil), God the Father taking steps to discipline me for sins I committed a very long time ago). The church I was going to in years past didn't have a baptismal pool, and didn't consider it necessary.
I probably don't have a position on it and it's drivng me loco. I think of it largely as a ritual. Since I view it rather dogmatically, I tend to go to my uncle's Kingdom Hall (Or another spot as they get huge in comparison to normal meetings) and no one actually participates since no one is "annointed" there. They have a talk, pass the bread and wine, then it's over. I like that because it's passive. The information they provide makes perfect sense if you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses.Let me ask you this: what is your position on communion? Do you also believe communion is necessary to remain Christian?
JGS said:You can't have fellowship with yourself. The trinity is 3 beings into ONE. One does not normally talk to themselves. There's no reason to communicate in that manner unless you are talking to another distinct individual. That's what I'm trying to get clarification on or else it sounds as if we're saying the same thing except I'm not entwining them since there's not a need to in order to reflect communication.
JGS said:Ok. No issues regarding this difference. I'm moving onto something that touches on this in regards to Michael. If Jesus can appear as an anonymous angel, then what's wrong with thinking he's the bos of the angels - Michael? This isn't something you brought out, but something that was taken issue with & I didn't realize there was a controversy about it beyond simple disagreement.
JGS said:Admittedly Revelation and me do not get along and I primarily like reading it for the visuals. However, John makes it clear it's largely a book of sign and symbols to grasp what will happen in the future- something that was already very common in OT.
IMO, it's tough to take a book filled with imagery and symbolism and then take part of that symbolism and apply it to something literal. No one is literally worshipping a wild beast or has a mark on their head, so why would anyone assume that the torment is literal (Or that it's even happening at death) too? Is The Lamb (Jesus) actually witnessing this torment forever and ever? Further, it only appears that part of wicked people actually experience this torment.
JGS said:Death does not mean torture. Fire has never acros any culture meant torture. Fire in judgement terms, almost always means destruction since that is what fire does. Revelation 20 discusses the resurrection for judgement of the the dead (Where were they all this time?). [/B
JGS said:Basically they were resurrected from their first death. After judgement, they face a second death if wicked. That does not mean torture forever and ever.
Justice is not torture. The debt paid for sin since Adam has been death. That's fair and just and people still have a hard time with that. It makes perfect sense why they would have a problem with something worse than waterboarding happening eternally for all time against their loved ones. That is a debt that can never be paid. How is that just?
JGS said:This is the point. It all boils down to religious belief. I'm not saying anything about your Church, but the one I left didn't have answers for why they did things. Again, if baptism isn't that important to begin with, I don't see what the issue is in doing it if it's Scripturally encouraged. You've already experienced the hard stuff. Despite my views of the trinity (I am in the minority), I am going to avoid debating particular denominational beliefs- especially since I don't share mine and the ones mentioned against JW's have been disturbing. Speaking of JW's...
JGS said:I probably don't have a position on it and it's drivng me loco. I think of it largely as a ritual. Since I view it rather dogmatically, I tend to go to my uncle's Kingdom Hall (Or another spot as they get huge in comparison to normal meetings) and no one actually participates since no one is "annointed" there. They have a talk, pass the bread and wine, then it's over. I like that because it's passive. The information they provide makes perfect sense if you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Until I figure it out, however, I don't really participate in my own church's at all. Not saying it's not important, I just can't figure out how it is important. Once I get the whole who goes to heaven thing down and why it's supposed to be done so often (There's no particular Scriptural reference) past annually, I'll have a better grasp of what I need to do there. Basically, no one is hassling me about it, so I'm not hassling myself.
Fernando Rocker said:Game Analyst
I really enjoy the articles you post (I'm pretty sure most of us in this thread likes to read them). And to b honest, I have learned a lot by reading them.
Fernando Rocker said:But I would love to hear your personal opinion in some things... for example, the topic being discussed in these days (very interesting, by the way).
This isn't correct unless you believe the trinity. It's a tail wagging the dog scenario.Game Analyst said:1. Jesus is God
The whole message of the Bible is about God's message to mankind, that he would come down and save us in the body of Jesus. Jesus said no man has seen God the father at any time. We have a huge problem then because Moses said he saw God, Jacob said he saw God, Hagar said that she saw God & Isaiah said he saw God (just to name a few in the OT who saw God). This is an easy problem to understand when we realize who it is that they saw.
I agree with this, but there still remains the difference.Fedos said:There was nothing that was created without the Son. Similarly there was nothing that was created without the Holy Spirit.
The Bible also doesn't indicate the anonymous angels mentioned are Jesus either, but the assumption may be there.Fedos said:Well, because the Bible doesn't say he's Michael the archangel, it says that he is God the Son. For instance: 'For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?'
Hebrews 1:5
Michael the archangel is the watcher over the nation of Israel, according to what the Bible says.
So you believe that Revelation is possibly not largely symbolic?Well that happens in the future, after the rapture of the church. Just for instance, fifty years ago it was hard to imagine how someone could force everyone on the planet to take a mark in their right hand or forehead without which you wouldn't be able to buy or sell. But technology today is moving in that direction, and fast. The mark of the beast is very possible in today's computer age.
This doesn't have much to do with eternal torment though. Why couldn't the 2nd death = death?Fedos said:Well they were in hell, which is not the lake of fire, called the second death. Hell is in the center of the earth. At the end of the millenium, death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death that the book of Revelation speaks of. But before that happens they have to stand before Jesus at the judgement.
What kind of sick, twisted individual would lose happiness knowing that wicked people merely died? Why would they seek enjoyment ensuring the wicked suffer for all eternity?Fedos said:Well the Bible teaches that God will wipe away all tears from the saints eyes when they get to heaven. God will not allow another persons decision to reject him effect the saints enjoyment of heaven.
Again, baptism isn't about way of life since your way of life has already changed before you even qualify for baptism (I know different churches have different timeframes for that). It's simply about acknowledgement. Honestly, I was under the impression that baptisms were how religions kept track of their numbers which makes sense since that is what Acts did.Fedos said:Well the church I'm attending now does not have a baptismal pool either, but at the end of September we're going to another church to be baptized. But I've been Christian since August 1st of 2002, and not being baptized has not had an effect on my lifestyle (ie holy living), the fact that God has chastised and continued to chastise me (for sins I committed when I first accepted Christ) or from Satanic attacks (though as I have said not all Christians experience Satanic attacks).
Meus Renaissance said:So why the command for them not to look back when in reality they would have had the opportunity to see God's power up front in the way the Israelites did when Moses parted the sea?
Game Analyst said:Jesus gives a commentary on this situation:
And the world will be as it was in the days of Lot. People went about their daily businesseating and drinking, buying and selling, farming and buildinguntil the morning Lot left Sodom. Then fire and burning sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. Yes, it will be business as usual right up to the day when the Son of Man is revealed. On that day a person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack. A person out in the field must not return home. Remember what happened to Lots wife! If you cling to your life, you will lose it, and if you let your life go, you will save it.
Meus Renaissance said:So her looking back wasn't mere curiousity but rather a display of attachment to that city, that society, in which God condemned?
JGS said:Ah, so I did answer and you just have a skipping needle. Got it.
JGS said:I explained this repeatedly and you refused to even acknowlege the reasons.
Originally Posted by me:
Isaiah 44 is clearly talking about idolotry. Isaiah 44:24 is discussing how God needed no help from foreign gods that other worship.
Sabotage said:Wrong, there are 3 "Thus saith the LORD" in Isaiah 44
"Thus saith the LORD" denotes the beginning of a NEW topic/decree/act etc...
Isaiah 44:24-28 has nothing to do with idolatry...
Isaiah 44:1-5, talks about Jacob/Israel being chosen
Isaiah 44:6-23, talks about idols
Isaiah 44:24-28, talks about creation and building of Jerusalem
JGS said:I brought up Proverbs 8 because it coincides with Jesus role in creation, just like Colossians does. I mistakenly minimized wisdom in the chapter, but it doesn't diminish jesus playing the part.
JGS said:Maybe if you came out with a piece of propaganda entitled "How Isaiah = Colossians...
JGS said:Non-belief in the trinity has little to do with denomination since it's not a Bible teaching. The trinity is a denominational teaching. Just because the two largest denominations believe in it does not change it's status as a fringe teaching away from Doctrine.
Lot has never been that good of an example to me. Lot and his whole family had a problem with letting go of stuff. Lot landed in Sodom to begin with because he wasn't satisfied with hanging around Abraham. He starts out living on the edge of the city but by the time the city is destroyed, he is actually in the city and hanging out in the town square.Meus Renaissance said:So her looking back wasn't mere curiousity but rather a display of attachment to that city, that society, in which God condemned?
The Lamp said:Just wanted to say that Gungor's new album is out today (I told some of you about them)
Here's an acoustic rendition of one of their new songs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vHFsXOdTt0
And you can preview their album here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005DZMQA4/?tag=neogaf0e-20
They wrote this album as a narrative to try to explain the beauty of God's character, creation, and bemoaning its darkness and frailty. One of the songs itself attempts to musically express the moment of creation itself. I just ordered mine, can't wait for it to come in :]
Fernando Rocker said:Thanks. I have been listening to some Christian music lately, so I appreciate the links.
http://img.ibtimes.com/www/articles/20110929/222139_iranian-pastor-sentenced-to-death.htm
September 29, 2011 10:35 AM EDT
Iranian Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani, who is facing the death penalty, again refused to convert to Islam to save his life.
Nadarkhani was arrested in 2009 for the crime of apostasy because he allegedly abandoned Islam for Christianity. As a pastor, Iranian clerics believe that Nadarkhani was preaching in order to convert Muslims.
archnemesis said:Why not "convert", leave for a civilized country and the deconvert again?
Then that means he wasn't a "true" Christian to begin with.archnemesis said:I don't really see the point of him throwing away his life though. Why not "convert", leave for a civilized country and the deconvert again?
archnemesis said:Maybe he'll be better off in the afterlife then.
Atramental said:When I was still religious, if someone had put a gun to my head and said, "Renounce Christ or I'll put a bullet in your head." I would've taken that bullet because of my fear of betraying Jesus.
Columbine Girl "Martyred" for Faith
26 April, 1999
(CNS) Cassie Bernall, the 17-year-old who was shot after telling one of two teen-age gunmen she believed in God, is due to be buried Monday.
Her story has made an impact around the world.
According to the Denver Post one of the perpetrators of last Tuesday's armed assault had taunted Bernall: "Do you believe in God?" When she replied that she did, "he pulled the trigger," said an eyewitness.
Atramental said:Then that means he wasn't a "true" Christian to begin with.
When I was still religious, if someone had put a gun to my head and said, "Renounce Christ or I'll put a bullet in your head." I would've taken that bullet because of my fear of betraying Jesus.
It's a good thing that never happened. Haha...
I know. My private Christian school teachers used her death as a means to teach my eight year old self and my fellow classmates the importance of not denying Christ. Even at gunpoint.Game Analyst said:This happened during the Columbine massacre.
Yeah, because if you live long enough you might find out that this whole Christ thing is an elaborate tale told by superstitious men.Dunk#7 said:It is easier to die for Christ than it is to live for Christ
Sabotage said:I refused to acknowledge it? Again, you're just reacting without reading
post 2549
Isaiah 44:1-5, talks about Jacob/Israel being chosen
Isaiah 44:6-23, talks about idols
Isaiah 44:24, talks about creation and building of Jerusalem
You still cannot account for the fact that in Isaiah 44:24 says The LORD makes all things, heaven alone, earth by himself.
If God created all things through Jesus, how exactly is God BY HIMSELF and ALONE?
Are you sure about that? Wisdom seems to be represented by a woman....
8:1 Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise HER voice? 2At the highest point along the way, where the paths meet, SHE takes HER stand; 3 beside the gate leading into the city, at the entrance, SHE cries aloud:
V11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with HER.
How about some more of Proverbs:
P 1:20 Out in the open wisdom calls aloud, SHE raises HER voice in the public square;
p 4:7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. 8 Cherish HER, and SHE will exalt you; embrace HER, and SHE will honor you. 9 SHE will give you a garland to grace your head and present you with a glorious crown.
P 9:1 Wisdom has built HER house; SHE has set up its seven pillars. 2 SHE has prepared HER meat and mixed HER wine; SHE has also set HER table.
Jesus fits the bill? She fits the bill? It's a figure of speech to personify wisdom, which is what Solomon is doing.
There's none, none at all?
Isaiah 44:24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am The LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Col1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
No connection?
Isaiah: I am the LORD that makes all things
Colossians: For by him were all things created
Isaiah: I am the LORD that makes all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone
Colossians: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven
Isaiah: I am the LORD that makes all things; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself
Colossians: For by him were all things created, that are in earth
Both talking about creating all things, both talking about creating heaven, both talking about creating earth.
NO connection?
Actually I'm leaning towards this, you deny Christ being God which jw's do, you capitalized the J and W, you brought up Proverbs 8 which no one was talking about and coincidentally is part of watchtower propaganda "Should You Believe in the Trinity?". If you're not a jw, then what denomination are you part of?
Highly unlikely as it is difficult to collaborate across years when it's the same writer, much less so when there are different writers across decades.Atramental said:Yeah, because if you live long enough you might find out that this whole Christ thing is an elaborate tale told by superstitious men.
ClovingSteam said:Individuals like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, etc. who clearly supported the full divinity of Jesus are portrayed as arguing the very opposite.
Sabotage said:Firstborn is a title that has nothing to do with rank of birth/creation, it's a title of distinguishment, excellence, or preeminence.
Atramental said:Then that means he wasn't a "true" Christian to begin with.
When I was still religious, if someone had put a gun to my head and said, "Renounce Christ or I'll put a bullet in your head." I would've taken that bullet because of my fear of betraying Jesus.
It's a good thing that never happened. Haha...
I bet he's not a true Scotsman either.Fedos said:So you basically admit that you weren't a true Christian. According to this verse: 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.'
1 John 2: 19