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[legend166]

Then that means he wasn't a "true" Christian to begin with.

When I was still religious, if someone had put a gun to my head and said, "Renounce Christ or I'll put a bullet in your head." I would've taken that bullet because of my fear of betraying Jesus.

It's a good thing that never happened. Haha...

I feel uncomfortable reading things like this.

You don't know what you would do in that situation. Of course, Christians would like believe that we would stand up for Christ, but you'd never know until it actually happen.

And if we said that everyone who denied Christ with their mouths during a period of danger is not a Christian, Peter might have been in trouble.

 

[Fedos]

I feel uncomfortable reading things like this.

You don't know what you would do in that situation. Of course, Christians would like believe that we would stand up for Christ, but you'd never know until it actually happen.

And if we said that everyone who denied Christ with their mouths during a period of danger is not a Christian, Peter might have been in trouble.

I think the Calvinist position is that if you are really Christian you can't completely fall away from the faith. And if you fall into sin, God will eventually bring you back into the fold. I have been saved for going on 10 years and I'm leaning towards this position.

 

[legend166]

I think the Calvinist position is that if you are really Christian you can't completely fall away from the faith. And if you fall into sin, God will eventually bring you back into the fold. I have been saved for going on 10 years and I'm leaning towards this position.

Oh, I agree.

I'm arguing against the idea that saying "I am not a Christian" when someone has a gun to your head means you're not a Christian.

Not everyone has the grace to be a martyr.

 

[JGS]

Oh, I agree.

I'm arguing against the idea that saying "I am not a Christian" when someone has a gun to your head means you're not a Christian.

Not everyone has the grace to be a martyr.

Christianity is potential martyrdom. If you don't face that fact early on, there's no point in joining. I get heat of the moment situations though where at the end of the day, you just want to live (Dying isn't a natural expectation for humans). That's what remorsefulness and repentance is for.

It's also true those of less faith denounce Christianity for a lot less than a gun to their head, but then again they could be saying they are a Christian and really not be one to begin with.

Basically, to be a Christian, you have to assume a gun (figurative or literal) will be to your head at some point.

 

[legend166]

How do you explain Peter?

He denied Christ when he had a figurative gun pointed at his head. Was he not saved?

I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying that Christians should not be prepared for potential martyrdom. What I'm saying is that if someone has a gun to their head, and in their weakness, denies Christ to save themselves, that does not mean they are not Christians.

I'm not talking about denouncing the faith, as such.

 

[Sabotage]

Now if this logic proves Jesus is God, then it also has to prove others are God also - when in fact the same logic can be applied.


GENESIS 19:19,24
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry[a] his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.'

Your example doesn't help you...

Amos 4:10I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

11I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

Why would the LORD say "I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah"?

So did God create the earth alone? Yes, he did.

Did Jesus create. No.

Did he help? Yes.

You cannot be ALONE if someone is with you

This is totally not true. The literal meaning of prōtotokos (First-Born) literally means first produced. It's alternate use denotes excellence or pre-eminence.

Right, Just like David who was the last born

Psalm 89:20I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him...
27Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

And just like Josephs' second son Ephraim

Jeremiah 31: 9They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Christ is preeminent.

Christ is God.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

You guys like to talk up the whole martyr thing, as if being a Christian is a constant battle. It's a persecution complex not based in reality, it makes for dramatic conversation I guess...?

 

[JGS]

You guys like to talk up the whole martyr thing, as if being a Christian is a constant battle. It's a persecution complex not based in reality, it makes for dramatic conversation I guess...?

Persecution has little to do with it everything Christians have to put up with. It's silly to think there's not Christian persecution otu there, but it has more to do with pressure. You are delusional if you think Christians aren't pressured to do things contrary to Christianity. Real persecution is clear as mud in several countries.

However, peer pressure & human weakness are universal. So the dangers Christians face are real. The world is built for the non-religious since it requires nothing more than to not kill someone.

 

[JGS]

How do you explain Peter?

He denied Christ when he had a figurative gun pointed at his head. Was he not saved?

- He was remorseful. The verses made that clear. That's the point.
- He was not a Christian yet because the congregation wasn't blessed with holy spirit. The apostles were apostles while Jesus was alive because Jesus was with them. This is why all of them split out of fear.
- They seemed to think that Jesus was estabvlishing a physical kingdom and with him captured, that did not look like it was going to happen now.
- Peter never backed down once he was used to establish the Christian congregation to Jews, Gentiles, & Samaritans. He finally became a martyr.

I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying that Christians should not be prepared for potential martyrdom. What I'm saying is that if someone has a gun to their head, and in their weakness, denies Christ to save themselves, that does not mean they are not Christians.

I'm not talking about denouncing the faith, as such.

You are talking about denouncing faith. Lying about you faith is denouncing it.

However, you are correct that it's something that is totally recoverable from unless one does it repeatedly, concerned primarily for their own neck rather than putting trust in God.

 

[KodMoS]

Your example doesn't help you...

Amos 4:10I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

11I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

Why would the LORD say "I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah"?



You cannot be ALONE if someone is with you



Right, Just like David who was the last born

Psalm 89:20I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him...
27Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

And just like Josephs' second son Ephraim

Jeremiah 31: 9They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Christ is preeminent.

Christ is God.

Actually it does. Basically what you're doing is avoiding my main points without even addressing them.

A singular pronoun was used when it said it says God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.


To make sure you don't avoid my points again, answer this.

The angels said God send us to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.

God said He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.


QUESTION: Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, the two angels or God?


What you fail to mention are scriptures that shows the firstborn is taken literal. You, again ignored my point. You said firstborn does not mean first-produced when the Greek definitions proves otherwise. Also, I never denied firstborn has having an alternate use.

LUKE 2:7
And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

This scripture here shows how firstborn can be used in it's literal use.

 

[Fedos]

You guys like to talk up the whole martyr thing, as if being a Christian is a constant battle. It's a persecution complex not based in reality, it makes for dramatic conversation I guess...?

Well, the reality is, the Church has three potential enemies: the world (this can be seen in areas of the globe where Christians are suffering for their faith, such as Islamic countries, or North Korea). Christians die every day in these countries because they refuse to deny Christ.

The next potential enemy is the flesh. The Bible mentions the flesh numerous times throughout the Epistles (mostly the Aposlte Paul's Epistles). The flesh is basically your old, fallen nature (when you become Christian, God gives you a new nature, you are allowed to partake of Christ's divine nature, and you can begin to live a supernatural life, free from the bondage of sin). It is the old you and can manifest itself in a good many ways.

And the last enemy is the devil. Devils or demons don't attack all Christians. Some Christans I am sure have enough problems without having to deal with the devil. For instance if you are Christian and you live in an Islamic country then I would guess you have enough problems without having to worry about the devil. But he attacks some, he has attacked me for instance. I've had numerous encounters with the devil.

 

[Orayn]

Well, the reality is, the Church has three potential enemies: the world (this can be seen in areas of the globe where Christians are suffering for their faith, such as Islamic countries, or North Korea). Christians die every day in these countries because they refuse to deny Christ.

I can agree with this as long as you don't start acting like America is one of those places. Some people do, and it's ridiculous.

The next potential enemy is the flesh. The Bible mentions the flesh numerous times throughout the Epistles (mostly the Aposlte Paul's Epistles). The flesh is basically your old, fallen nature (when you become Christian, God gives you a new nature, you are allowed to partake of Christ's divine nature, and you can begin to live a supernatural life, free from the bondage of sin). It is the old you and can manifest itself in a good many ways.

The idea of humanity being inherently evil is what drove me away from Christianity more than anything else. I've heard the entire spiel about original sin and the need for salvation numerous times, I just disagree with it on nearly every level, not the least of which is our hardwired (not learned!) sense of empathy.

And the last enemy is the devil. Devils or demons don't attack all Christians. Some Christans I am sure have enough problems without having to deal with the devil. For instance if you are Christian and you live in an Islamic country then I would guess you have enough problems without having to worry about the devil. But he attacks some, he has attacked me for instance. I've had numerous encounters with the devil.

Could you expound on this a little? I would like to hear more.

 

[Fedos]

I can agree with this as long as you don't start acting like America is one of those places. Some people do, and it's ridiculous.

Well America is basically the only country that has never persecuted Christians. Some Christians believe that that will change as we get closer to the rapture. I'm guessing it will change myself.

The idea of humanity being inherently evil is what drove me away from Christianity more than anything else. I've heard the entire spiel about original sin and the need for salvation numerous times, I just disagree with it on nearly every level, not the least of which is our hardwired (not learned!) sense of empathy.

Well consider that you don't have to teach a young child how to lie. Or to steal. Or to disobey their parents. If human beings were born inherently good then this world would be a much better place than it is now.

Could you expound on this a little? I would like to hear more.

Well sure. I accepted Christ back in August of 2002. And it didn't take long for me to be attacked by the devil. It happened probably a week after I accepted Christ. Suffice it to say, if I were to go into the details here you probably wouldn't believe me, but I ended up sinning and God the Father took steps to discipline me (this is all in the Bible by the way, the Father disciplining his children) and I have been suffering under the weight of that sin ever since. The thing is, sometimes when you become Christian life will get more complicated, and it certainly happened in my case.

 

[Orayn]

Well consider that you don't have to teach a young child how to lie. Or to steal. Or to disobey their parents. If human beings were born inherently good then this world would be a much better place than it is now.

I didn't mean to imply that humans are naturally paragons of virtue, just that most of us aren't inclined to murder, rape, torture, etc. because we can usually put ourselves in another person's place and realize that we're about to cause harm.

Well sure. I accepted Christ back in August of 2002. And it didn't take long for me to be attacked by the devil. It happened probably a week after I accepted Christ. Suffice it to say, if I were to go into the details here you probably wouldn't believe me, but I ended up sinning and God the Father took steps to discipline me (this is all in the Bible by the way, the Father disciplining his children) and I have been suffering under the weight of that sin ever since. The thing is, sometimes when you become Christian life will get more complicated, and it certainly happened in my case.

You sound like you've been through a lot. I don't know how much it means coming from a nonbeliever, but I hope you make progress and feel less troubled about this event at some point in the future.

 

[legend166]

There's no doubt that certain segments of Christendom like to overstate their persecution (mainly in the States), but it's a fact that if you're a practicing Christian in probably over 50% of the planet, you're going to suffer persecution. Sadly the hysterics of some who think someone saying 'Happy Holidays' is persecution means this is often overlooked.

 

[Sabotage]

QUESTION: Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, the two angels or God?

The LORD used the angels

What you fail to mention are scriptures that shows the firstborn is taken literal. You, again ignored my point. You said firstborn does not mean first-produced when the Greek definitions proves otherwise. Also, I never denied firstborn has having an alternate use.

The point is, I was discussing this with Mr JGS who said

Firstborn always, always, always denotes a birth or creation which is why God is distinguished from it.

This is simply not true, because as you pointed out there is an "alternate" use of the word. Firstborn, in the context of the verses I quoted have nothing to do with first-produced, birth or creation, but a title of distinguishment, excellence, preeminence.

Christ is preeminent.

Christ is God.

 

[KodMoS]

The LORD used the angels



The point is, I was discussing this with Mr JGS who said


This is simply not true, because as you pointed out there is an "alternate" use of the word. Firstborn, in the context of the verses I quoted have nothing to do with first-produced, birth or creation, but a title of distinguishment, excellence, preeminence.

Christ is preeminent.

Christ is God.

The problem with your statement is that you said firstborn does not mean firstcreated but it denotes a title.

Firstborn does not mean first created, it simple denotes a title of authority, excellence, or preeminence, not the start of the existence of the person. David was born last

If Paul meant preeminence in Col 1:15, he would have said it. Paul used the Greek word prōteuōn in verse 18, which literal means preeminence. Paul was very clear on this matter, and he would have used the greek word prōteuōn if he mean't preemineance. Knowing he was talking about creation, he clearly says Jesus means Jesus literal firstborn.


I used the same logic between God and angels you simply do not refute it.

The LORD clearly states that he (uses the singular pronoun "I") will destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, not "we."

Let's use another example..

Jude 9:8
American King James Version
Which alone spreads out the heavens, and treads on the waves of the sea.


Wait, here it says God alone spreads out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea. Based on your logic, Peter must be God since he also walked on water along side Jesus.

If you want to use this understanding to support your belief Jesus is God, then you have to include Peter too.

 

[heyf00L]

Concerning "firstborn":
Can you explain verse 18 then?
"he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead"
Jesus wasn't the first person to come back from the dead. The meaning must be something more like "preeminent".

 

[JGS]

Concerning "firstborn":
Can you explain verse 18 then?
"he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead"
Jesus wasn't the first person to come back from the dead. The meaning must be something more like "preeminent".

He was firstborn to a permanent resurrection. The others that were raised died again.

 

[YoungHav]

Question. How does someone in heaven meetup with a beloved friend or family member who happened to go to hell?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Question. How does someone in heaven meetup with a beloved friend or family member who happened to go to hell?

Not sure it serious.

 

[Shanadeus]

Question. How does someone in heaven meetup with a beloved friend or family member who happened to go to hell?

They don't.
They won't care though when they're in heaven.

 

[crazy monkey]

They don't.
They won't care though when they're in heaven.

holyshit you are back

 

[Chaplain]

Question. How does someone in heaven meetup with a beloved friend or family member who happened to go to hell?

The Bible is silent on this issue.

 

[JGS]

It's silent primarily because their loved one isn't burning in Hell to be talked to.

The dead and the living don't communicate with each other since, Scripturally, the dead know nothing.

 

[slidewinder]

And you, as one of the living, know that you're going to die and join the dead, right? And that death is to know nothing?

 

[JGS]

And you, as one of the living, know that you're going to die and join the dead, right? And that death is to know nothing?

Not a all.

I'm going off what scripture says about it.

Dead is dead

Now if one believes in eternal torment then I guess they could be resurrected first and then sent to hell

 

[Chaplain]

The dead and the living don't communicate with each other since, Scripturally, the dead know nothing.

There is only one case where the dead communicated with the living in the Bible:

But Saul took an oath in the name of the Lord and promised, “As surely as the Lord lives, nothing bad will happen to you for doing this.” Finally, the woman said, “Well, whose spirit do you want me to call up?” “Call up Samuel,” Saul replied. When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed, “You’ve deceived me! You are Saul!” “Don’t be afraid!” the king told her. “What do you see?” Saul asked. “He is an old man wrapped in a robe,” she replied. Saul realized it was Samuel, and he fell to the ground before him.

“Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?” Samuel asked Saul. “Because I am in deep trouble,” Saul replied. “The Philistines are at war with me, and God has left me and won’t reply by prophets or dreams. So I have called for you to tell me what to do.” But Samuel replied, “Why ask me, since the Lord has left you and has become your enemy? The Lord has done just as he said he would. He has torn the kingdom from you and given it to your rival, David. 18 The Lord has done this to you today because you refused to carry out his fierce anger against the Amalekites. What’s more, the Lord will hand you and the army of Israel over to the Philistines tomorrow, and you and your sons will be here with me. The Lord will bring down the entire army of Israel in defeat.” 1 Samuel 28

And that death is to know nothing?

Biblically death is to live for eternity without God and without love (or loved ones).

“Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side. “The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.’

“But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’

“Then the rich man said, ‘Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father’s home. For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don’t end up in this place of torment.’ “But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.’

“The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.’ “But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’” - Luke 16

Although people mistakenly believe that, at best, when they die they will cease to exist, the fact is that not only will they continue to exist—but they will be able to remember the good things they received on earth—the blessings God poured out upon them, the patience God showed to them, the manifold opportunities He gave them to turn to Him. Therefore, I suggest that one of the most horrendous aspects of hell is the memory people will have of the times they could have received the free gift of salvation, but chose to harden their hearts instead

 

[JGS]

There is only one case where the dead communicated with the living in the Bible:

But Saul took an oath in the name of the Lord and promised, “As surely as the Lord lives, nothing bad will happen to you for doing this.” Finally, the woman said, “Well, whose spirit do you want me to call up?” “Call up Samuel,” Saul replied. When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed, “You’ve deceived me! You are Saul!” “Don’t be afraid!” the king told her. “What do you see?” Saul asked. “He is an old man wrapped in a robe,” she replied. Saul realized it was Samuel, and he fell to the ground before him.

“Why have you disturbed me by calling me back?” Samuel asked Saul. “Because I am in deep trouble,” Saul replied. “The Philistines are at war with me, and God has left me and won’t reply by prophets or dreams. So I have called for you to tell me what to do.” But Samuel replied, “Why ask me, since the Lord has left you and has become your enemy? The Lord has done just as he said he would. He has torn the kingdom from you and given it to your rival, David. 18 The Lord has done this to you today because you refused to carry out his fierce anger against the Amalekites. What’s more, the Lord will hand you and the army of Israel over to the Philistines tomorrow, and you and your sons will be here with me. The Lord will bring down the entire army of Israel in defeat.” 1 Samuel 28

That example was likely demonic for a couple of reasons:

1. Jews were not allowed to seek out fortune tellers or involve themselves with sorcery. The medium herself was scared to perform it since Saul should have had her killed.
2. The spirit in question got the details wrong. The parts the spirit got right were already known ahead of time when Saul messed up to begin with.

It's a pretty easy thing to mimic a ghost when you are a spirit creature or lie and say you are a servant of God.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

"Archbishop backs William and Kate's decision to live together before marriage"

The Archbishop of York backed Prince William and Kate Middleton’s decision to live together before marriage, saying that many modern couples want to “test the milk before they buy the cow”.​

The title is actually quite misleading. He never 'backs' it, but gives the impression that it isn't relevant. Note, this was in response to the question of them living together before they were married.

 

[DeathIsTheEnd]

"Archbishop backs William and Kate's decision to live together before marriage"

The Archbishop of York backed Prince William and Kate Middleton’s decision to live together before marriage, saying that many modern couples want to “test the milk before they buy the cow”.​

I think I heard him say this on a BBC interview before the wedding. My jaw was on the ground. Is pre-marital sex an open question in Christianity now?

The Anglican Church is rather more liberal than many other Christian denominations.

 

[JGS]

The Anglican Church is rather more liberal than many other Christian denominations.

From what I can tell, most denominations are non-condemnatory of the practice. It's along the lines of "Don't ask, don't tell" until the couple ask to get married.

This actually has me wondering what other Christian denominations do when it comes to kicking people out of the church. This is a part of the discussion going on in the Jehovah's Witness thread. Now some are all bent out of shape because they kick out people according to their view of the Scriptures.

Now the only thing the Archbishop could do is either shrug it off, encourage it, or kick them out. I'm assumng that expelling people from a church is a rarity for anything up to apostasy. Is this the case?

My congregation has a particular view on matters but never actually enforces those views on individuals. So people can indeed shack up or smoke or be for gay marriage with no major ramifications (Of course, I'm not privvy to confidential conversations).

 

[Chaplain]

A commentary on Jesus' prayer about Christians being united as one.

 

[Chaplain]

Free conference on 10/28/11 - 10/29/11 - Veritas Evangelical Seminary National Apologetics Conference will be hosted at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (3800 S Fairview Ave Santa Ana, CA 92704). The conference will be broadcast live over the net at this link.

Speakers:

Randall Price - The Latest on the Search For Noah’s Ark
Norman Geisler - Is God a Moral Monster? & The Importance of Knowing the Attributes of God
Ron Rhodes - 10 Keys to Answering Cultists at Your Door & How We Know Christ Rose from the Dead
H. Wayne House - A Biblical, Medical, Legal, and Moral Look at Homosexuality
Ed Hindson - How We Know the End is Near: A Journey through the Book of Revelation
Ergun Caner - The Secret of Islam
Tim LaHaye - Why it is Important to Study End Times Prophecy Now

More info go here:

http://veritasseminary.com/Conferences.html

 

[JGS]

Top 5 lists of favortie Bible people after Jesus.

1. Paul - Man gets a lot of grief for a couple of verses but the epitome of what it means to be bold, brave & humble.

2. Daniel - The book is a perfect blend of history, prophecy, storytelling, and great examples in the 3 Hebrews but particularly Daniel who is the epitome of a Stranger in a Strange Land.

3. Jonah - Funniest book of the Bible and Jonah is a great example of God giving 2nd, 3rd, & 4th chances even when direct disobedience is involved.

4. David - Lived a relatively short life but accomplished quite a bit LIKE A BOSS. Great example of what repentance means.

5. Samson - Satisfies my inner movie maker when I read this story

Might do one on Bible writers one day as it will likely skew back to NT, but Paul. Might also try a minor characters version.

 

[Chaplain]

A commentary on the Jews rejecting Jesus but accepting Caesar and the woman that stuck with Jesus until the end.

 

[Chaplain]

At some point during our walk with the Lord, we are vunerable to be like our brother doubting Thomas.

 

[phisheep]

Top 5 lists of favortie Bible people after Jesus.

1. Paul - Man gets a lot of grief for a couple of verses but the epitome of what it means to be bold, brave & humble.

2. Daniel - The book is a perfect blend of history, prophecy, storytelling, and great examples in the 3 Hebrews but particularly Daniel who is the epitome of a Stranger in a Strange Land.

3. Jonah - Funniest book of the Bible and Jonah is a great example of God giving 2nd, 3rd, & 4th chances even when direct disobedience is involved.

4. David - Lived a relatively short life but accomplished quite a bit LIKE A BOSS. Great example of what repentance means.

5. Samson - Satisfies my inner movie maker when I read this story

Might do one on Bible writers one day as it will likely skew back to NT, but Paul. Might also try a minor characters version.

What, no room for Job? I have a soft spot for Solomon as well.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

What, no room for Job? I have a soft spot for Solomon as well.

phisheep, do you find that you a greater appreciation for the legal system found in the Bible due to you being an attorney?

 

[Shanadeus]

The title of this thread kinda suggests that christianity is about infinite love.
Well, the other day I met a christian baptist from Nigeria named Friday who told me that he is for the death punishment.

That kinda made me surprised, as killing someone kinda reduce the amount of time they have to introspect and chose to accept Jesus into their heart.

What do you think of this?

 

[JGS]

What, no room for Job? I have a soft spot for Solomon as well.

Love Job. He's probably 6 or 7. He falls from grace a little as a charcater because most of his story is largely debate. It reminds me of religion thread on Gaf reading it. However, it is one of my favorite books - probably top 5.

Solomon starts on a high for me as well and imo speaks wise words better than anyone other than Jesus. However, he turns away from God. So he is actually one of the biggest failures amongst all Bible characters- pert near close to Adam. He's like his dad, David, if David never actually repented for various sins which were oftentimes major.

The title of this thread kinda suggests that christianity is about infinite love.
Well, the other day I met a christian baptist from Nigeria named Friday who told me that he is for the death punishment.

That kinda made me surprised, as killing someone kinda reduce the amount of time they have to introspect and chose to accept Jesus into their heart.

What do you think of this?

Well, death penalty and Christian love don't have much to do with each other. You can be pro-love and punishment. I'm not for the death penalty but it's largely for legal reasons not moral ones. Generally speaking, if someone kills someone, I think it very justifiable to kill them.

Biblically, it's an acceptable form of punishment and, at the end of the day, is what's foretold to happen to everyone against God (Unless one believes the harsher sentence of eternal torture. In any event hugs and kisses are not what's received by the wrongdoer).

Love is definitely the default as a principle, but it's not unconditional by any means. Uncondition is largely the same as all accepting. However, I agree that it's a relief that I am not obligated/encouraged in any way, shape, or form to actually engage in violence or death with my fellow man.

It doesn't help that how a Christian shows love often is interpretted as insulting to non-Christians.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

I bet he's not a true Scotsman either.

lololol, dude hahaha

 

[phisheep]

phisheep, do you find that you a greater appreciation for the legal system found in the Bible due to you being an attorney?

I'd pluralise that. There's more than one legal system in the Bible.

But of course I do - or at least I think I do. Certainly it is something that I am drawn to just out of interest. I guess we all find a particular professional slant in whatever wwe read.

For example, one book that steered me towards law in the first place is Frank Morison's "Who Moved the Stone?" purely for the way he handled evidence. Masterful. If the man wasn't a lawyer then probably he should have been (just checked, and apparently he was an advertising executive instaed).

The title of this thread kinda suggests that christianity is about infinite love.
Well, the other day I met a christian baptist from Nigeria named Friday who told me that he is for the death punishment.

That kinda made me surprised, as killing someone kinda reduce the amount of time they have to introspect and chose to accept Jesus into their heart.

What do you think of this?

I don't see any inherent contradiction in a Christian (or a follower of any other religion for that matter) supporting the death penalty.

Sure, it may reduce the time available for conversion but, as Dr Johnson said, "Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully."

Don't see what your problem is with this.

What I do find strange, very strange indeed, is the liberal atheist morality that everyone should be kept alive as long as medically possible - which doesn't appear to have anything in the way of justification behind it when considered on its own terms.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

Love Job. He's probably 6 or 7. He falls from grace a little as a charcater because most of his story is largely debate. It reminds me of religion thread on Gaf reading it. However, it is one of my favorite books - probably top 5.

Solomon starts on a high for me as well and imo speaks wise words better than anyone other than Jesus. However, he turns away from God. So he is actually one of the biggest failures amongst all Bible characters- pert near close to Adam. He's like his dad, David, if David never actually repented for various sins which were oftentimes major.
Well, death penalty and Christian love don't have much to do with each other. You can be pro-love and punishment. I'm not for the death penalty but it's largely for legal reasons not moral ones. Generally speaking, if someone kills someone, I think it very justifiable to kill them.

Biblically, it's an acceptable form of punishment and, at the end of the day, is what's foretold to happen to everyone against God (Unless one believes the harsher sentence of eternal torture. In any event hugs and kisses are not what's received by the wrongdoer).

Love is definitely the default as a principle, but it's not unconditional by any means. Uncondition is largely the same as all accepting. However, I agree that it's a relief that I am not obligated/encouraged in any way, shape, or form to actually engage in violence or death with my fellow man.

It doesn't help that how a Christian shows love often is interpretted as insulting to non-Christians.

So... is Solomon not in Heaven?

 

[Dude Abides]

What I do find strange, very strange indeed, is the liberal atheist morality that everyone should be kept alive as long as medically possible - which doesn't appear to have anything in the way of justification behind it when considered on its own terms.

That's not the liberal atheist position. It certainly wasn't liberal atheists making a ruckus about pulling the plug on Terry Schiavo.

 

[JGS]

So... is Solomon not in Heaven?

Can't answer the heaven question, but indications are that Solomon is in a similar position as his father. Basically, if he had an honorable burial like his dad he would receive the same rewards as David and others. I don't know why I know this (lol), but burials were tied closely to Godly favor.

It doesn't change the fact that Solomon dies a far worse man than he was when he wrote various books of the Bible and during the building of the Temple. However, it's a good example of why people are not qualified to judge salvation or know who should receive forgiveness from God.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I don't see any inherent contradiction in a Christian (or a follower of any other religion for that matter) supporting the death penalty.

Sure, it may reduce the time available for conversion but, as Dr Johnson said, "Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully."

Don't see what your problem is with this.

What I do find strange, very strange indeed, is the liberal atheist morality that everyone should be kept alive as long as medically possible - which doesn't appear to have anything in the way of justification behind it when considered on its own terms.

I do find a contradiction for a Christian to support the death penalty. So often the idea of the Mosaic law having passed away and the New covenant having superseded it. I cannot find any justification in the new covenant for being in favor of killing an individual. The concept of an eye for an eye is quite absent in the NT.

 

[phisheep]

I do find a contradiction for a Christian to support the death penalty. So often the idea of the Mosaic law having passed away and the New covenant having superseded it. I cannot find any justification in the new covenant for being in favor of killing an individual. The concept of an eye for an eye is quite absent in the NT.

Well that's sort of true as regards Christians themselves, though I'd qualify that by saying that the absence of the concept from the NT doesn't prove anything one way or another. The NT doesn't mention Facebook either, but that isn't determinative of whether Facebook is right (or, indeed, wrong).

However, what we're talking about with reference to the death penalty is not individual acts of revenge but the laws of the ruling state - and I'd venture that there is at least tangential NT support for them, say in Romans 13 and Acts 5.

I'm not claiming that the Bible supports, or even mandates, the death penalty. Or that I support it (I don't, but mostly on the grounds that mistakes are too easily made). All I'm saying is that the Bible isn't determinative of the issue and so it is perfectly feasible for a Christian to bend either way.

 

[JGS]

I do find a contradiction for a Christian to support the death penalty. So often the idea of the Mosaic law having passed away and the New covenant having superseded it. I cannot find any justification in the new covenant for being in favor of killing an individual. The concept of an eye for an eye is quite absent in the NT.

Not really. Only the concept of who and how justice is administered. In the NT God metes out punishment but also allows governments to carry out laws as they see fit outside of worship (Actually within too).

In other words, the Bible allows governments to make laws in absence of a theocratic rule and those laws have almost always included capital punishment alongside imprisonment.

Jesus sacrifice is based on the principle of a soul for a soul so the NT is actually about condoning that equivalency. Again, it's just that Christians don't engage in it themselves as worshippers. As citizens of a secular country though, they may hold a different view since the theoretically aren't supposed to mix the two anyway. In reality, the truth is more along the lines that death penalties are an acceptable form of punishment across OT and NT with only the excutionaer changing.

 

[Chaplain]

The title of this thread kinda suggests that christianity is about infinite love.
Well, the other day I met a christian baptist from Nigeria named Friday who told me that he is for the death punishment.

That kinda made me surprised, as killing someone kinda reduce the amount of time they have to introspect and chose to accept Jesus into their heart.

What do you think of this?

God is clear about his views on capital punishment (God said this 400 years before giving the Mosaic law):

"If anyone takes a human life, that person’s life will also be taken by human hands. For God made human beings in his own image." Genesis 9:6

The whole justice system has fallen apart when this law was thrown out.

So... is Solomon not in Heaven?

At the end of Solomon's life, Solomon continued walking with God (after his long backsliding journey).

"Here now is my final conclusion: Fear God and obey his commands, for this is everyone’s duty. God will judge us for everything we do, including every secret thing, whether good or bad." - Ecclesiastes 12:13