• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Christianity |OT| The official thread of hope, faith and infinite love.

Status
Not open for further replies.

JGS

Banned
Actually 1 Kings takes place after all of Solomon's writings so, although he may have worshipped God to a limited extent as king, he was also worshipping pagan ones too. So there's no real indication that he ever returned to God as a true worshipper.

By the time he died he wasn't practicing what he preached which is a shame since he was such an amazing writer.
 

JGS

Banned
Favorite Bible Writers (According to legend or the book itself)

Moses - This guy and the next one have been more influential, good or bad, for how the Bible is viewed in modern times. Regardless of that, his storytelling ability plus the abundance of the stories make it & the Gospels the essential parts of the Bible to read. Nearly every controversy is based on Moses' writing or the writings of...

Paul - This is a sad one because Paul is one of the most genuine and loving Christians out there but he gets flack for stating the obvious. It comes across clearly in how he writes and probably shows the most love for women of all Bible writers. However, he never lets that interfere with dropping cold hard facts up in the Bible. Amazing debater, faithful Christian, & Jewish scholar all wrapped in one

Luke - He gives nice details to the Gospel considering his background as both a researcher and apparent doctor of some type. However, his account of Acts is amazing. It's one of my favorite books as it shows the growing pains, mistakes, zeal, & faith of a host of Christians in early times. Before the rest of the books primarily focus on individual responsibility of beng good Christians, this book recounts how the entire congregation works in harmony across the board.

As an aside, I really count all the Gospels as one reading with Luke being my favorite. I ike the others too, particularly John. However, from a reading aspect, the nod goes to Luke.

Solomon - Proverbs is a great book of wise sayings as is Ecclesiastes which seems more straight to the point. Song of Solomon is a loyalty to God story masked as nice little love story. The man had mad writings skills when God was providing the wisdom.

James - In many ways, he reminds me of paul, but he packs so much info in a little book that you can read it over and over again in a few minutes time and it covers a lot of things Paul said across a few books. It's an expresso shot of Bible reading.
 

Chaplain

Member
Just a reminder. The Apologetics Conference will start in 1 hour (9am pst).

Veritas Evangelical Seminary National Apologetics Conference

Webcast link.

Speakers:

Randall Price - The Latest on the Search For Noah’s Ark
Norman Geisler - Is God a Moral Monster? & The Importance of Knowing the Attributes of God
Ron Rhodes - 10 Keys to Answering Cultists at Your Door & How We Know Christ Rose from the Dead
H. Wayne House - A Biblical, Medical, Legal, and Moral Look at Homosexuality
Ed Hindson - How We Know the End is Near: A Journey through the Book of Revelation
Ergun Caner - The Secret of Islam
Tim LaHaye - Why it is Important to Study End Times Prophecy Now


295965_2312287720635_1052646049_2648449_366226986_n.jpg


More info go here:

http://veritasseminary.com/Conferences.html
 

GhaleonQ

Member
The Reformation Day service was the best I've been to in a few years; they even did the correct, rhythmic version of A Mighty Fortress Is Our God rather than the one most people know. Hinge that on Thy Strong Word, a classic law-and-gospel sermon contextualized in mid-1800s American history, a message from our awesome synod president, and a congregation that was really intent on worshipping, and you have a service that made my week. Good stuff.
 

JGS

Banned
Daniela Rocker said:
What are your views on Halloween?
Like most holidays, it completely overshadows religious intent. Actaully I don't quite understand the religious origins of it. It seems like it is soley designed as a let loose day.
 

Fusebox

Banned
Game Analyst said:
Just a reminder. The Apologetics Conference will start in 1 hour (9am pst).

Veritas Evangelical Seminary National Apologetics Conference

Webcast link.

Speakers:

Randall Price - The Latest on the Search For Noah’s Ark
Norman Geisler - Is God a Moral Monster? & The Importance of Knowing the Attributes of God
Ron Rhodes - 10 Keys to Answering Cultists at Your Door & How We Know Christ Rose from the Dead
H. Wayne House - A Biblical, Medical, Legal, and Moral Look at Homosexuality
Ed Hindson - How We Know the End is Near: A Journey through the Book of Revelation
Ergun Caner - The Secret of Islam
Tim LaHaye - Why it is Important to Study End Times Prophecy Now


295965_2312287720635_1052646049_2648449_366226986_n.jpg


More info go here:

http://veritasseminary.com/Conferences.html
Ooh, can you come back after watching it and tell me what the secret of Islam is? My curiosity is piqued!
 

JGS

Banned
Game Analyst said:
Well, I just don't know why a religious person would view it as anything special. I get it as a secular holiday. However, I do disagree with this:
On the other hand, it isn't wrong to dress up in a costume and go door-to-door saying "Trick or Treat." Provided that the costume isn't demonic, I can't see anything wrong with this. It's just fun for the kids.
I do think it's important to look at the intent of a holiday. Trick or treat conveys the intent whether someone is wearing a demonic costume or not. I know a lot of holidays became Christian ones and a few actually replaced the original intent (Like Xmas), but Halloween seems like a different animal that never actually made the switch.

Also, the intent is clear by the overwhelming majority of people that do celebrate with a desire toward the sinister/evil/demonic. So it's kind of like guilt by association.

Again, from a secular viewpoint, I don't care. However, I think it's tough to justify it as religious based holiday that was actually suppposed to be celebrated as opposed to the day after.
 

Chaplain

Member
"A Hindu philosopher came forth after a ten-year silence and declared to his followers at an ashram in India that the whole world runs by the Ten Commandments. Now, if even a Hindu made such an observation, how could Paul say salvation comes not through the law or as a result of the law? He could do so because he contended that the sole reason the law was given was to show people that they are depraved and despicable sinners in desperate need of a Savior (3:31). “We’re not voiding the law,” Paul insisted. “We’re fulfilling the very reason for which it was given—to make you see your need of a Savior and to drive you to grace.”

The Faith of Abraham: Salvation before the Law or any good works!
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Just a quick aside GA, I picked up the nearest Bible to hand to follow through that last post - it's an unfamiliar bible (recent purchase from a charity shop, I seem to end up giving Bibles away with some regularity).

I'm kind of curious about how my thumb went straight to Romans when needed, and got within a page or two of the right psalm at first shot, but I lost it entirely when it came to Ecclesiastes, auto-pilot on left thumb failed completely. Obviously my subconscious didn't get it, but even then with conscious brain sort of engaged (it is late here) I had to go to the index.

Do you get this as well?
 

KodMoS

Banned
heyf00L said:
Concerning "firstborn":
Can you explain verse 18 then?
"he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead"
Jesus wasn't the first person to come back from the dead. The meaning must be something more like "preeminent".


So what's your point? I never said the title "firstborn" was never used to mean "preeminent." The problem with Trinitarians is that they use this to refute Colossians 1:15, where the title firstborn was used. What I'm arguing is that it doesn't always mean preeminent, and it literally means first produced. Colossians 1:15 clearly shows Jesus was the first produced/ firstborn of God's creation.

This debate can go on for hours, days, weeks ect. The problem still exist for the trintiarian doctrine; Jesus became lord, king, judge, exalted to a higher position ect and he is still submission to his father, whom he calls God. Based on scripture, Jesus was never almighty and never will be. So he is the same god that was called the almighty throughout the scriptures? No.
 

Gileadxv

Banned
KodMoS said:
So what's your point? I never said the title "firstborn" was never used to mean "preeminent." The problem with Trinitarians is that they use this to refute Colossians 1:15, where the title firstborn was used. What I'm arguing is that it doesn't always mean preeminent, and it literally means first produced. Colossians 1:15 clearly shows Jesus was the first produced/ firstborn of God's creation.

This debate can go on for hours, days, weeks ect. The problem still exist for the trintiarian doctrine; Jesus became lord, king, judge, exalted to a higher position ect and he is still submission to his father, whom he calls God. Based on scripture, Jesus was never almighty and never will be. So he is the same god that was called the almighty throughout the scriptures? No.

Here is the entire passage:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (NIV 1984)

The word does not describe Christ as the first being created in time because the hymn proclaims that all things were “created by Him” and that “He is before all things.” Jesus is the eternal One who was before all creation. The idea of firstborn in the Hebrew culture did not require that one be the first son born. This was not the case with either Isaac or Jacob. But they were the firstborn in the sense that they were rightful heirs to the line of their fathers. Being firstborn referred more to rank and privilege than to order of birth. Since Christ is God, He is supreme in rank over all creation. Yet He is not only the transcendent deity who created us; He is the One who died on our behalf (Phil. 2:6–18) and was subsequently raised from dead. Thus, He is also the firstborn from the dead (v. 18), the first One who experienced the true resurrection (1 Cor. 15:20).
Radmacher, Earl D. ; Allen, Ronald Barclay ; House, H. Wayne: Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Commentary. Nashville : T. Nelson Publishers, 1999, S. Col 1:15

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. -- John 1:1-3
 

KodMoS

Banned
Gileadxv said:
Here is the entire passage:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (NIV 1984)

The word does not describe Christ as the first being created in time because the hymn proclaims that all things were “created by Him” and that “He is before all things.” Jesus is the eternal One who was before all creation. The idea of firstborn in the Hebrew culture did not require that one be the first son born. This was not the case with either Isaac or Jacob. But they were the firstborn in the sense that they were rightful heirs to the line of their fathers. Being firstborn referred more to rank and privilege than to order of birth. Since Christ is God, He is supreme in rank over all creation. Yet He is not only the transcendent deity who created us; He is the One who died on our behalf (Phil. 2:6–18) and was subsequently raised from dead. Thus, He is also the firstborn from the dead (v. 18), the first One who experienced the true resurrection (1 Cor. 15:20).
Radmacher, Earl D. ; Allen, Ronald Barclay ; House, H. Wayne: Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Commentary. Nashville : T. Nelson Publishers, 1999, S. Col 1:15

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. -- John 1:1-3

Jesus never created anything, but God created all things through Jesus Christ. That's why the scriptures state that things are made through him. There are some Bible translations where it states all things were made by Jesus, which is incorrect.

This passages makes this point clear.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.



If Bibles are consistent in rendering versus, they would render it through Jesus Christ and not by him.

Example:

John 1:3 -NIV
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

John 1:3 - KJV
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

1 Cor 8:6 - NIV
Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 Cor 8:6 - KJV
Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Cor 8:6 - NKJV
one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.



Firstborn as used literally in Col 1:15, and it means Jesus was the firstborn (first produced). There is a literal Greek word for preeminence and if that's what Paul meant, he would have used it, just liked it did in the later verse.
 

Chaplain

Member
KodMoS said:
Firstborn as used literally in Col 1:15, and it means Jesus was the firstborn (first produced). There is a literal Greek word for preeminence and if that's what Paul meant, he would have used it, just liked it did in the later verse.

A more in depth view on this subject:

The Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon has the following definition for this Greek word that is translated ‘image’ here:

1504 εἰκών [eikon /i·kone/] n f. From 1503; TDNT 2:381; TDNTA 203; GK 1635; 23 occurrences; AV translates as “image” 23 times. 1 an image, figure, likeness. 1a an image of the things (the heavenly things). 1a1 used of the moral likeness of renewed men to God. 1a2 the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses. 1b the image of one. 1b1 one in whom the likeness of any one is seen. 1b2 applied to man on account of his power of command. 1b3 to Christ on account of his divine nature and absolute moral excellence.

Paul says here that Christ is the ‘firstborn of all creation’, yet this does not indicate that the Son of God is a created being. He is eternal and before all that exists, just as Jesus told the Pharisees, “Before Abraham was I am.”

The Greek word that is translated ‘firstborn’ here is defined thus by Strong’s Enhanced Lexicon, indicating that the word doesn’t necessary imply a created being but rather one that was “begotten”:

4416 πρωτότοκος [prototokos /pro·tot·ok·os/] adj. From 4413 and the alternate of 5088; TDNT 6:871; TDNTA 965; GK 4758; Nine occurrences; AV translates as “firstborn” seven times, and “first begotten” twice. 1 the firstborn. 1a of man or beast. 1b of Christ, the first born of all creation.

Arius, 250-336 AD, was a priest in Alexandria, Egypt. He took this verse to teach that Christ had to have a beginning, and thus that Christ was not of one substance with the Father, but rather a created being Himself. This teaching denied the deity of Christ, and it became known as Arianism. At the Nicene Council of the church of 425 AD, Arius was declared a heretic for this belief, and then the Nicene Creed, that great definition of essential church doctrine which ensued from that council, defined this statement for us saying of Christ that He is, “begotten of His Father before all worlds.”

The Bible Knowledge Commentary says the following about this passage:

Christ’s supremacy is shown in His relationship to Creation. He is the Firstborn over all Creation. Though it is grammatically possible to translate this as “Firstborn in Creation,” the context makes this impossible for five reasons: (1) The whole point of the passage (and the book) is to show Christ’s superiority over all things. (2) Other statements about Christ in this passage (such as Creator of all [1:16], upholder of Creation [v. 17], etc.) clearly indicate His priority and superiority over Creation. (3) The “Firstborn” cannot be part of Creation if He created “all things.” One cannot create himself. (Jehovah’s Witnesses wrongly add the word “other” six times in this passage in their New World Translation. Thus they suggest that Christ created all other things after He was created! But the word “other” is not in the Gr.) (4) The “Firstborn” received worship of all the angels (Heb. 1:6), but creatures should not be worshiped (Ex. 20:4-5). (5) The the ‘firstborn’: Greek word for “Firstborn” is prōtotokos. If Christ were the “first-created,” the Greek word would have been prōtoktisis.

he Bible Knowledge Commentary says the following about Christ being called here

“Firstborn” denotes two things of Christ: He preceded the whole Creation, and He is Sovereign over all Creation. In the Old Testament a firstborn child had not only priority of birth but also the dignity and superiority that went with it (cf. Ex. 13:2-15; Deut. 21:17). When Jesus declared Himself “the First” (ho prōtos; Rev. 1:17), He used a word that means “absolutely first.” “Firstborn” also implies sovereignty. The description “firstborn” was not a fairly common Old Testament designation of the Messiah-God. “I will also appoint Him My Firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth” (Ps. 89:27). While this regal psalm refers to David, it also designates the Messiah, as seen in Revelation 1:5, where Christ is called “the Firstborn from the dead (cf. Col. 1:18) and the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” So “Firstborn” implies both Christ’s priority to all Creation (in time) and His sovereignty over all Creation (in rank).

More here.
 

KodMoS

Banned
Game Analyst said:
A more in depth view on this subject:

The Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon has the following definition for this Greek word that is translated ‘image’ here:

1504 εἰκών [eikon /i·kone/] n f. From 1503; TDNT 2:381; TDNTA 203; GK 1635; 23 occurrences; AV translates as “image” 23 times. 1 an image, figure, likeness. 1a an image of the things (the heavenly things). 1a1 used of the moral likeness of renewed men to God. 1a2 the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses. 1b the image of one. 1b1 one in whom the likeness of any one is seen. 1b2 applied to man on account of his power of command. 1b3 to Christ on account of his divine nature and absolute moral excellence.

Paul says here that Christ is the ‘firstborn of all creation’, yet this does not indicate that the Son of God is a created being. He is eternal and before all that exists, just as Jesus told the Pharisees, “Before Abraham was I am.”

The Greek word that is translated ‘firstborn’ here is defined thus by Strong’s Enhanced Lexicon, indicating that the word doesn’t necessary imply a created being but rather one that was “begotten”:

4416 πρωτότοκος [prototokos /pro·tot·ok·os/] adj. From 4413 and the alternate of 5088; TDNT 6:871; TDNTA 965; GK 4758; Nine occurrences; AV translates as “firstborn” seven times, and “first begotten” twice. 1 the firstborn. 1a of man or beast. 1b of Christ, the first born of all creation.

Arius, 250-336 AD, was a priest in Alexandria, Egypt. He took this verse to teach that Christ had to have a beginning, and thus that Christ was not of one substance with the Father, but rather a created being Himself. This teaching denied the deity of Christ, and it became known as Arianism. At the Nicene Council of the church of 425 AD, Arius was declared a heretic for this belief, and then the Nicene Creed, that great definition of essential church doctrine which ensued from that council, defined this statement for us saying of Christ that He is, “begotten of His Father before all worlds.”

The Bible Knowledge Commentary says the following about this passage:

Christ’s supremacy is shown in His relationship to Creation. He is the Firstborn over all Creation. Though it is grammatically possible to translate this as “Firstborn in Creation,” the context makes this impossible for five reasons: (1) The whole point of the passage (and the book) is to show Christ’s superiority over all things. (2) Other statements about Christ in this passage (such as Creator of all [1:16], upholder of Creation [v. 17], etc.) clearly indicate His priority and superiority over Creation. (3) The “Firstborn” cannot be part of Creation if He created “all things.” One cannot create himself. (Jehovah’s Witnesses wrongly add the word “other” six times in this passage in their New World Translation. Thus they suggest that Christ created all other things after He was created! But the word “other” is not in the Gr.) (4) The “Firstborn” received worship of all the angels (Heb. 1:6), but creatures should not be worshiped (Ex. 20:4-5). (5) The the ‘firstborn’: Greek word for “Firstborn” is prōtotokos. If Christ were the “first-created,” the Greek word would have been prōtoktisis.

he Bible Knowledge Commentary says the following about Christ being called here

“Firstborn” denotes two things of Christ: He preceded the whole Creation, and He is Sovereign over all Creation. In the Old Testament a firstborn child had not only priority of birth but also the dignity and superiority that went with it (cf. Ex. 13:2-15; Deut. 21:17). When Jesus declared Himself “the First” (ho prōtos; Rev. 1:17), He used a word that means “absolutely first.” “Firstborn” also implies sovereignty. The description “firstborn” was not a fairly common Old Testament designation of the Messiah-God. “I will also appoint Him My Firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth” (Ps. 89:27). While this regal psalm refers to David, it also designates the Messiah, as seen in Revelation 1:5, where Christ is called “the Firstborn from the dead (cf. Col. 1:18) and the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” So “Firstborn” implies both Christ’s priority to all Creation (in time) and His sovereignty over all Creation (in rank).

More here.

What you're doing is offering someone opinion on this subject.

Notice what he says on this part

The the ‘firstborn’: Greek word for “Firstborn” is prōtotokos. If Christ were the “first-created,” the Greek word would have been prōtoktisis

One can say if Paul meant supremacy, he would have use the literal Greek word for supremacy or preeminence, which he did not do. So this argument can go both ways.

Notice what he says again.

Though it is grammatically possible to translate this as “Firstborn in Creation”

So yes, there is not denying this word can be translated to mean that Jesus was created.

Now this is where he falls apart.

(1) The whole point of the passage (and the book) is to show Christ’s superiority over all things. (2) Other statements about Christ in this passage (such as Creator of all [1:16], upholder of Creation [v. 17], etc.) clearly indicate His priority and superiority over Creation. (3) The “Firstborn” cannot be part of Creation if He created “all things.” One cannot create himself. (Jehovah’s Witnesses wrongly add the word “other” six times in this passage in their New World Translation. Thus they suggest that Christ created all other things after He was created! But the word “other” is not in the Gr.)


1) Christ is not superior of all things, and God has headship over him. He was exalted to a superior position, which contradict his interpretation of scripture. (Philip 2:9)

2) Christ is superior over all creation, since he is part of the creation, this obviously doesn't include himself.

3) That's not what the contract shows. Contract shows Jesus OF (key word OF) the creation, which obviously means he is part of the creation. Same point is brought out in Revelation 3:14.
 

JGS

Banned
Although I am resisting the urge to get ito a trinity debate (Which is why I'm not reading in detail), from the lexicon I'm getting that the some view the verse wrong on the subject of firstborn solely for the "fact" that Jesus is Divine.

It also seemed to indicated that the Nicene creed put an end to all that non-trinity "rubbish" rather than the Scriptures themselves. Would this be accurate?
 
I'm not sure this is the best place to ask this, and I fear it will lead to the trinity debate JGS does not want to get into, but has the trinity always existed?

Until Jesus' birth he can't have been part of the trinity, but to my knowledge of most Christian ideas God does not change. The two don't seem to mix.

I suppose you could argue Jesus' spirit has always existed, so the trinity has always been around in some form, but I'm not sure Jesus' spirit would be the same as him in a human body.
 

JGS

Banned
From what I gather from the explanations, the trinity was around since Genesis when God & Jesus are talking about making man. So from a trinitarian perspective, it's always been around. This is why firstborn does not mean the traditional definition.
 

KodMoS

Banned
The belief is that The Father, son and Holy spirit always existed. They are co-equal and eternal. They're all God, not three God but one God existing in 3 forms.
 
KodMoS said:
The belief is that The Father, son and Holy spirit always existed. They are co-equal and eternal. They're all God, not three God but one God existing in 3 forms.
So Jesus as part of the trinity is his soul rather than Jesus as a person?
 

Chaplain

Member
KodMoS said:
Arius, 250-336 AD, was a priest in Alexandria, Egypt. He took this verse to teach that Christ had to have a beginning, and thus that Christ was not of one substance with the Father, but rather a created being Himself. This teaching denied the deity of Christ, and it became known as Arianism. At the Nicene Council of the church of 425 AD, Arius was declared a heretic for this belief, and then the Nicene Creed, that great definition of essential church doctrine which ensued from that council, defined this statement for us saying of Christ that He is, “begotten of His Father before all worlds.”

I think this case is closed (for those on the fence about this) because of the fact that the Nicene Council considered Arius a heretic for saying that Jesus was a created being.

Jesus is the first born of the new creation (his humanity). The first to live a perfect/sinless life, pay for mankind's sins and resurrect from the dead. Something that the first Adam did not do because of his sin. The first Adam blew it and Jesus came to Earth to fix his mistake.

That is what those verses are taking about if we examine the whole console of God's Word, because the Bible is clear that Jesus always existed (before becoming a man).

Philippians 2:5-7
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
John tells us that the Word was God (not an aspect of God, but God Himself) in the beginning.

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
We know God does not change.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

Jn 5:16-18
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Jn 8:23
But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jn 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jn 18:4-6
Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that are coming upon him, having gone forth, said to them, `Whom do ye seek?’ they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;’ Jesus saith to them, `I am [he];’ — and Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; – when, therefore, he said to them – `I am [he],’ they went away backward, and fell to the ground.

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Jn 8:54-58,
Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
 
Game Analyst said:
Jesus is the first born of the new creation (his humanity). The first to live a perfect/sinless life, pay for mankind's sins and resurrect from the dead. Something that the first Adam did not do because of his sin. The first Adam blew it and Jesus came to Earth to fix his mistake.

That is what those verses are taking about if we examine the whole console of God's Word, because the Bible is clear that Jesus always existed (before becoming a man).
Do you mean anything by referring to Adam as 'the first Adam'?
 

KodMoS

Banned
Game Analyst said:
I think this case is closed (for those on the fence about this) because of the fact that the Nicene Council considered Arius a heretic for saying that Jesus was a created being.

Jesus is the first born of the new creation (his humanity). The first to live a perfect/sinless life, pay for mankind's sins and resurrect from the dead. Something that the first Adam did not do because of his sin. The first Adam blew it and Jesus came to Earth to fix his mistake.

That is what those verses are taking about if we examine the whole console of God's Word, because the Bible is clear that Jesus always existed (before becoming a man).

Philippians 2:5-7
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
John tells us that the Word was God (not an aspect of God, but God Himself) in the beginning.

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
We know God does not change.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

Jn 5:16-18
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Jn 8:23
But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jn 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jn 18:4-6
Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that are coming upon him, having gone forth, said to them, `Whom do ye seek?’ they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;’ Jesus saith to them, `I am [he];’ — and Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; – when, therefore, he said to them – `I am [he],’ they went away backward, and fell to the ground.

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Jn 8:54-58,
Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”


The problem is, it's not a close case. There has always been a problem with the Trinity doctrine, and that's why people have been debating it for years. It's not a scriptural based doctrine, but it comes from teachings of men.


Now if you have actually read my post, I never denied that Jesus pre-existed before he became a man, the problem is, he never was God almighty.


So what are the main problems with the scriptures that you used to support the idea that Jesus is God?


John 1:1
--Since the definite article (the) is missing from John 1:1c, John obviously was not calling the God Almighty. It's an indefinite noun, which is a qualitative. If John was saying Jesus is God the Almighty, He would have used that article.


John 1:18
--The Greek actually says "the only begotten Son" NOT "but God the One and Only"

John 5:18
--This is merely commentary from John as it says making himself equal to God as accused by the Jews. John 5:19, Jesus denies being equal to God by saying the Son cannot do anything alone, which contradicts your point.

John 8:58
--I AM is not a title for God. If Jesus went by the title in Exodus, he would not said it in Greek, and it was not I AM (Greek Ego Eimi).

Revelation 21:6
--This is not Jesus speaking.
 

Chaplain

Member
DeathIsTheEnd said:
Do you mean anything by referring to Adam as 'the first Adam'?

"The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:45

"Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven." - 1 Corinthians 15:47

KodMoS, I am sorry for you that you deny that Jesus is God.

"Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen." - Romans 9

"You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being." - Philippians 2
 

KodMoS

Banned
Game Analyst said:
"The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:45

"Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven." - 1 Corinthians 15:47

KodMoS, I am sorry for you that you deny that Jesus is God.

"Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen." - Romans 9

"You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being." - Philippians 2

Nothing that you have posted proves Jesus is God. You're posting two scriptures that prove Jesus had a pre-human existence, which I also believe.

Philippians 2:9 does not say "Though he was God" in the Greek text, that was added by the translator.

Romans 9:5 doesn't even translate to "And he is God." The expression God who is over all can apply to Christ grammatically, or God himself.

Examples:

The New American Bible
according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever, Amen."

Revised English Bible
from them by natural descent came the Messiah. May God, supreme above all, be blessed forever!"

An American Translation
and from them physically Christ came - God who is over all be blessed for ever!"

The expressions in these verses apply to God not Christ. But like I said before, based on grammar, it can be applied to Christ or to God the Father. If this applied to Christ, this would have never equated Jesus with God the Greek word thoes is used without an indefinite article. It would have just referred to him as a diving being.


There are many scriptures that shows Jesus is not God.

---John 17:3, Jesus calls his father the Only True God, which excludes him.

---1 Corinthians 15:28 says Jesus will be in subjection to his God (Almighty God is not in subjection to anyone ) If Jesus was part of a Trinity or if he was God, he will never be in subjection to God.

---Revelation 1:6 says Jesus has a God, and it's his father. A God does not have a God.

---Jesus was made Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36 ). Almighty was always Lord.

---Jesus and men have the same God, whom is the Father alone (John 20:17). God almighty would never claim to have a God since no one has authority over the almighty. If jesus was God, he or any of his disciples would have never said he had a God.

---Jesus became Judge as he was appointed by the Father (Acts 10:42).


There's nothing in scriptures that show Jesus as being Almighty God. There are many scriptures in the Bible that contradicts the idea of Jesus being God Almighty.

Almighty is one who expresses authority over anyone and anything. Jesus never has been almighty, he was exalted several times, showing that he had to gain authority. After all is said in done, he will be in subjection to his father who is also his God. That's the main problem in this false doctrine, and his not even logical to call or equate Jesus to being God almighty.
 

Fedos

Member
KodMoS said:
There are many scriptures that shows Jesus is not God.

---John 17:3, Jesus calls his father the Only True God, which excludes him.

Well the Father calls Jesus God as well, even from the Old Testament, which is quoted in Hebrews:

'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of thy kingdom is a right scepter.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath annointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.' Psalms 45: 6-7.

Here we have the Father calling his Son God. This was quoted for clarification in the book of Hebrews: 'But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. Thou has loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath annointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.' Hebrews 1 :8-9


-
KodMoS said:
--1 Corinthians 15:28 says Jesus will be in subjection to his God (Almighty God is not in subjection to anyone ) If Jesus was part of a Trinity or if he was God, he will never be in subjection to God.

That can be explained by saying that God is a God of order.


-
KodMoS said:
---Revelation 1:6 says Jesus has a God, and it's his father. A God does not have a God.

---Jesus was made Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36 ). Almighty was always Lord.

---Jesus and men have the same God, whom is the Father alone (John 20:17). God almighty would never claim to have a God since no one has authority over the almighty. If jesus was God, he or any of his disciples would have never said he had a God.

---Jesus became Judge as he was appointed by the Father (Acts 10:42).

I believe I have shown that the Father even calls the Son God.
 

KodMoS

Banned
Fedos said:
Well the Father calls Jesus God as well, even from the Old Testament, which is quoted in Hebrews:

'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of thy kingdom is a right scepter.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath annointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.' Psalms 45: 6-7.

Here we have the Father calling his Son God. This was quoted for clarification in the book of Hebrews: 'But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. Thou has loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath annointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.' Hebrews 1 :8-9


-

That can be explained by saying that God is a God of order.


-

I believe I have shown that the Father even calls the Son God.

This is another debated scripture. If we took your interpretation of this verse, it would put you in dangerous grounds. Psalms 45: 6-7 is actually addressed to a king (maybe Solomon), so clearly God was not calling him God. So if God is calling Jesus God, then he would be calling a human king God also.


I can offer different translations and facts how this verse can be understood but based on the fact that Psalms 45: 6-7 was addressed to a man (not Jesus) then it's obvious God was not calling anyone else God. There are several different ways to translate this verse and the Trinitarian interpretation obviously has flaws based on who Psalms 45: 6-7 was originally addressed to.
 

Fedos

Member
KodMoS said:
This is another debated scripture. If we took your interpretation of this verse, it would put you in dangerous grounds. Psalms 45: 6-7 is actually addressed to a king (maybe Solomon), so clearly God was not calling him God. So if God is calling Jesus God, then he would be calling a human king God also.

I can offer different translations and facts how this verse can be understood but based on the fact that Psalms 45: 6-7 was addressed to a man (not Jesus) then it's obvious God was not calling anyone else God. There are several different ways to translate this verse and the Trinitarian interpretation obviously has flaws based on who Psalms 45: 6-7 was originally addressed to.




It is talking about Jesus because Jesus is unique in that he is Prophet, Priest, and King. He fulfills all the Old Testament types and is the incarnate Son of God. So yes, it is talking about Jesus, even the writer of Hebrews clarifies that that is what the verse is referring to. And the Bible says that all scripture is given by inspiration of God, that would include the book of Hebrews scripture I quoted.
 

KodMoS

Banned
Fedos said:
It is talking about Jesus because Jesus is unique in that he is Prophet, Priest, and King. He fulfills all the Old Testament types and is the incarnate Son of God. So yes, it is talking about Jesus, even the writer of Hebrews clarifies that that is what the verse is referring to. And the Bible says that all scripture is given by inspiration of God, that would include the book of Hebrews scripture I quoted.

You're making no sense. You're saying Psalms 45: 6-7 was originally addressed to Jesus, when it was not. There was an appointed King prior to Jesus, and these words in Psalms was FIRST addressed to him. It was then applied to Jesus when he became King. So yes, these words were applied to a human and to Jesus Christ. If this proves Jesus is God, then it would also prove that this man is God.

In this scripture God is not calling Jesus God but it's talking about the Throne of God.
 

Chaplain

Member
KodMoS said:
If this proves Jesus is God, then it would also prove that this man is God.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

&

For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man. Do I understand how this is possible? No.

KodMoS said:
In this scripture God is not calling Jesus God but it's talking about the Throne of God.

Not true. The following verses of Hebrews show God calling Jesus God and saying Jesus created the Heavens and the Earth:

He also says to the Son,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth
and made the heavens with your hands.
They will perish, but you remain forever.
They will wear out like old clothing.
You will fold them up like a cloak
and discard them like old clothing.
But you are always the same;
you will live forever.”
- Hebrews 1:10-12
 

JGS

Banned
Something I've always been interested in is the chronology of important times. I am a firm believer that the Bible is sufficient to understand the basic beliefs found in it. I'm thinking about this now because things would be so much easier if translations used more concrete wording than what is used now. An obvious example is the omission of God's name in all but a couple of places. It now seems that the translations that have done this are by and large standard and without controversy in removing Jehovah or Yahweh from the texts.

I guess I'm trying to figure out at what point non-Biblical things became as imporetant as the Bible itself. After arguing for an eternally tormented time about the trinity, I see the timeline as:

1. Genesis allegedly speaks of the trinity
2. John 1:1 allegedly speaks of the trinity
3. Other verses (the majority of them actually) speak of Jesus being seperate and unequal from God
4. Founding fathers are mixed result of trinity. Basicaly, the later they found, the more likely it's trinitarian.
5. Nicene creed makes trinity official despite obvious controversy with the decision
6. The most popular translation of the Bible omits God's name.
7. Ones who believe in seperateness are considered cultist
8. It is now acceptable to not understand how the trinity exists or basically not to understand an extremely important portion of Biblical belief (In theory)

What I don't quite understand is how points 4-8 carry more weight than points 1-3. There is no question that there is no Biblical basis for the last four, but that apparently doesn't mean too much. Why?

This isn't a debate point, just a curious point. There are probably other examples that I'm just not in the mood to cover. For ones who largely gather their beliefs through Bible reading, it's kind of important to know why these other actions constitute something that requires me to accept it or face eternal torture.
 

KodMoS

Banned
Game Analyst said:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

&

For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man. Do I understand how this is possible? No.



Not true. The following verses of Hebrews show God calling Jesus God and saying Jesus created the Heavens and the Earth:

He also says to the Son,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth
and made the heavens with your hands.
They will perish, but you remain forever.
They will wear out like old clothing.
You will fold them up like a cloak
and discard them like old clothing.
But you are always the same;
you will live forever.”
- Hebrews 1:10-12

The word "God" in 1 Timothy 3:16 is not in Greek. It was added later into the Greek text by scribes. Same goes for 1 John 5:7, where it states "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Since these text were altered later, they cannot be used to support the fact that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity.

I find it funny they you fail to address any of the points that I made previously when I refuted your arguments and quoted my own scripture. If you're going to defend your beliefs, you have to respond because it looks like you cannot support your beliefs if you're just jumping over the scriptures that we were previously discussing.


Hebrews 1:10-12 is quoting Psalm 102:25-27. Psalm 102:25-27 is talking about God, not Jesus. Since all things were made through Jesus (as stated in 1 Corinthians 8:6), this scripture can be applied to him. The prophetic words in Hebrews chapter one are inspired words that have connection to Jesus and Solomon. Jesus and Solomon are not the same, neither are they God. So if you're using Hebrews to prove Jesus is God, then this would make Solomon God also. But like I said before, that's not the case.

I can't keep discussing scripture with someone who chooses to jump to scripture after scripture without staying discussing it in depth after I bring out flaws in someone interpretation. Im just wasting my time.
 

Chaplain

Member
KodMoS said:
The word "God" in 1 Timothy 3:16 is not in Greek. It was added later into the Greek text by scribes. Same goes for 1 John 5:7, where it states "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Since these text were altered later, they cannot be used to support the fact that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity.

I find it funny they you fail to address any of the points that I made previously when I refuted your arguments and quoted my own scripture. If you're going to defend your beliefs, you have to respond because it looks like you cannot support your beliefs if you're just jumping over the scriptures that we were previously discussing.


Hebrews 1:10-12 is quoting Psalm 102:25-27. Psalm 102:25-27 is talking about God, not Jesus. Since all things were made through Jesus (as stated in 1 Corinthians 8:6), this scripture can be applied to him. The prophetic words in Hebrews chapter one are inspired words that have connection to Jesus and Solomon. Jesus and Solomon are not the same, neither are they God. So if you're using Hebrews to prove Jesus is God, then this would make Solomon God also. But like I said before, that's not the case.

1) In regards to 1Tim3:16 from Barnes.

Verse 16. And, without controversy. Undeniably, certainly. The object of the apostle is to say that the truth which he was about to state admitted of no dispute.

Great is the mystery. On the meaning of the word mystery, See 1Co 2:7. The word means that which had been hidden or concealed. The meaning here is not that the proposition which he affirms was mysterious, in the sense that it was unintelligible, or impossible to be understood; but that the doctrine respecting the incarnation and the work of the Messiah, which had been so long kept hidden from the world, was a subject of the deepest importance. This passage, therefore, should not be used to prove that there is anything unintelligible, or anything that surpasses human comprehension, in that doctrine, whatever may be the truth on that point; but that the doctrine which he now proceeds to state, and which had been so long concealed from mankind, was of the utmost consequence.

Of godliness. The word godliness means, properly, piety, reverence or religiousness. It is used here, however, for the gospel scheme, to wit, that which the apostle proceeds to state. This "mystery" which had "been hidden from ages and from generations, and which was now manifest," Col 1:26, was the great doctrine on which depended religion everywhere, or was that which constituted the Christian scheme.

God. Probably there is no passage in the New Testament which has excited so much discussion among critics as this, and none in reference to which it is so difficult to determine the true reading. It is the only one, it is believed, in which the microscope has been employed to determine the lines of the letters used in a manuscript; and, after all that has been done to ascertain the exact truth in regard to it, still the question remains undecided. It is not the object of these Notes to enter into the examination of questions of this nature. A full investigation may be found in Wetstein. The question which has excited so much controversy is, whether the original Greek was yeov, God, or whether it was ov, who, or o, which. The controversy has turned, to a considerable degree, on the reading in the Codex Alexandrinus; and a remark or two on the method in which the manuscripts of the New Testament were written, will show the true nature of the controversy. Greek manuscripts were formerly written entirely in capital letters, and without breaks or intervals between the words, and without accents. See a full description of the methods of writing the New Testament, in an article by Prof. Stuart in Dr. Robinson's Bibliotheca Sacra, No. 2, pp. 254, seq. The small, cursive Greek letters which are now used, were not commonly employed in transcribing the New Testament, if at all, until the ninth or tenth centuries. It was a common thing to abridge or contract words in the manuscript. Thus, pr would be used for, pathr, father; kv for kuriov, Lord; yv for yeov, God, etc. The words thus contracted were designated by a faint line or dash over them. In this place, therefore, if the original were yC, standing for yeov, God, and the line in the y and the faint line over it, were obliterated from any cause, it would be easily mistaken for ov, who. To ascertain which of these is the true reading, has been the great question; and it is with reference to this that the microscope has been resorted to in the examination of the Alexandrian manuscript. It is now generally admitted that the faint line over the word has been added by some later hand, though not improbably by one who found that the line was nearly obliterated, and who meant merely to restore it. Whether the letter O was originally written with a line within it, making the reading, God, it is now said to be impossible to determine, in consequence of the manuscript at this place having become so much worn by frequent examination. The Vulgate and the Syriac read it, who, or which. The Vulgate is, "Great is the sacrament of piety which was manifested in the flesh." The Syriac, "Great is the mystery of godliness, that he was manifested in the flesh." The probability in regard to the correct reading here, as it seems to me, is, that the word, as originally written, was yeov --God. At the same time, however, the evidence is not so clear that it can be properly used in an argument. But the passage is not necessary to prove the doctrine which is affirmed, on the supposition that that is the correct reading. The same truth is abundantly taught elsewhere. Comp. Mt 1:23 Joh 1:14.

Was manifest. Marg., Manifested. The meaning is, appeared in the flesh.

But even if the word there is "who" instead of "God", you have to ask yourself- Who is it speaking of? Who is Paul writing about? The context is the same.

And the same applies to the next verse:


2) In regards to 1John 5:7 (Also from Barnes)

Verse 7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, etc. There are three that witness, or that bear witness--the same Greek word which, in 1Jo 5:8, is rendered bear witness --Greek. There is no passage of the New Testament which has given rise to so much discussion in regard to its genuineness as this. The supposed importance of the verse in its bearing on the doctrine of the Trinity has contributed to this, and has given to the discussion a degree of consequence which has pertained to the examination of the genuineness of no other passage of the New: Testament. On the one hand, the clear testimony which it seems to bear to the doctrine of the Trinity, has made that portion of the Christian church which holds the doctrine reluctant in the highest degree to abandon it; and on the other hand, the same clearness of the testimony to that doctrine, has made those who deny it not less reluctant to admit the genuineness of the passage. It is not consistent with the design of these Notes to go into a full investigation of a question of this sort. And all that can be done is to state, in a brief way, the results which have been reached, in an examination of the question. Those who are disposed to pursue the investigation further, can find all that is to be said in the works referred to at the bottom of the page.* The portion of the passage, in 1Jo 5:7,8, whose genuineness is disputed, is included in brackets in the following quotation, as it stands in the common editions of the New Testament: "For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth,] the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one." If the disputed passage, therefore, be omitted as spurious, the whole passage will read, "For there are three that bear record, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one." The reasons which seem to me to prove that the passage included in brackets is spurious, and should not be regarded as a part of the inspired writings, are briefly the following:

I. It is wanting in all the earlier Greek manuscripts, for it is found in no Greek Ms. written before the sixteenth century. Indeed, it is found in only two Greek manuscripts of any age--one the Codex Montfortianus, or Britannicus, written in the beginning of the sixteenth century, and the other the Codex Ravianus, which is a mere transcript of the text, taken partly from the third edition of Stephen's New Testament, and partly from the Complutensian Polyglott. But it is incredible that a genuine passage of the New Testament should be wanting in all the early Greek manuscripts.

II. It is wanting in the earliest versions, and, indeed, in a large part of the versions of the New Testament which have been made in all former times. It is wanting in both the Syriac versions--one of which was made probably in the first century; in the Coptic, Armenian, Sclavonic, Ehiopic, and Arabic.

III. It is never quoted by the Greek fathers in their controversies on the doctrine of the Trinity--a passage which would be so much in point, and which could not have failed to be quoted if it were genuine; and it is not referred to by the Latin fathers until the time of Vigilius, at the end of the fifth century. If the passage were believed to be genuine--nay, if it were known at all to be in existence, and to have any probability in its favour--it is incredible that in all the controversies which occurred in regard to the Divine nature, and in all the efforts to define the doctrine of the Trinity, this passage should never have been referred to. But it never was; for it must be plain to any one who examines the subject with an unbiased mind, that the passages which are relied on to prove that it was quoted by Athanasius, Cyprian, Augustin, etc., (Wetstein, II., p. 725,) are not taken from this place, and are not such as they would have made if they had been acquainted with this passage, and had designed to quote it.

IV. The argument against the passage from the external proof is confirmed by internal evidence, which makes it morally certain that it cannot be genuine.

(a.) The connexion does not demand it. It does not contribute to advance what the apostle is saying, but breaks the thread of his argument entirely. He is speaking of certain things which bear "witness" to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah; certain things were well known to those to whom he was writing--the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. How does it contribute to strengthen the force of this to say that in heaven there are "three that bear witness"--three not before referred to, and having no connexion with the matter under consideration?

(b.) The language is not such as John would use. He does, indeed, elsewhere use the term Logos, or Word, Greek Joh 1:1,14 1Jo 1:1, but it is never in this form, "The Father, and the Word;" that is, the terms "Father" and "Word" are never used by him, or by any of the other sacred writers, as correlative. The word Son--Greek--is the term which is correlative to the Father in every other place as used by John, as well as by the other sacred writers. See 1Jo 1:3 2:22-24 4:14 1Jo 3:9; and the Gospel of John, passim. Besides, the correlative of the term Logos, or Word, with John, is not Father, but God. See Joh 1:1. Comp. Re 19:13.

(c) Without this passage, the sense of the argument is clear and appropriate. There are three, says John, which bear witness that Jesus is the Messiah. These are referred to in 1Jo 5:6; and in immediate connexion with this, in the argument, (1Jo 5:8,) it is affirmed that their testimony goes to one point, and is harmonious. To say that there are other witnesses elsewhere, to say that they are one, contributes nothing to illustrate the nature of the testimony of these three--the water, and the blood, and the Spirit; and the internal sense of the passage, therefore, furnishes as little evidence of its genuineness as the external proof. It is easy to imagine how the passage found a place in the New Testament. It was at first written, perhaps, in the margin of some Latin manuscript, as expressing the belief of the writer of what was true in heaven, as well as on earth, and with no more intention to deceive than we have when we make a marginal note in a book. Some transcriber copied it into the body of the text, perhaps with a sincere belief that it was a genuine passage, omitted by accident; and then it became too important a passage in the argument for the Trinity, ever to be displaced but by the most clear critical evidence. It was rendered into Greek, and inserted in one Greek manuscript of the 16th century, while it was wanting in all the earlier manuscripts.

VI. The passage is now omitted in the best editions of the Greek Testament, and regarded as spurious by the ablest critics. See Griesbach and Hahn. On the whole, therefore, the evidence seems to me to be clear that this passage is not a genuine portion of the inspired writings, and should not be appealed to in proof of the doctrine of the Trinity. One or two remarks may be made, in addition, in regard to its use.

(1.) Even on the supposition that it is genuine, as Bengel believed it was, and as he believed that some Greek manuscript would yet be found which would contain it **; yet it is not wise to adduce it as a proof-text. It would be much easier to prove the doctrine of the Trinity from other texts, than to demonstrate the genuineness of this.

(2.) It is not necessary as a proof-text. The doctrine which it contains can be abundantly established from other parts of the New Testament, by passages about which there can be no doubt.

(3.) The removal of this text does nothing to weaken the evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity, or to modify that doctrine. As it was never used to shape the early belief of the Christian world on the subject, so its rejection, and its removal from the New Testament, will do nothing to modify that doctrine. The doctrine was embraced, and held, and successfully defended without it, and it can and will be so still.

3) Regarding the Heb 1:10

I don't understand what you are talking about. The reference in the Psalm is to God being the one who laid the foundations and so on, speaking of creation, not Solomon, especially since it was David who probably wrote this psalm.

The writer of Hebrews is saying that Psalm 102:25 was speaking of Jesus as the creator, so then all you have to do is go to Genesis 1.

Could you please answer the following questions?

Isa 41:4
Who has performed and done it, Calling the generations from the beginning? ‘I, the LORD, am the first; And with the last I am He.’”

Who is this? This is God, Jehovah.

Isa 44:6
“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Again,who is this? This is God, Jehovah. God makes sure we understand that there is no other God.

On a side note, "God" there is plural "Elohim", a compound word that means 3 or more. Same word used in Genesis 1.

Isa 48:12
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last."

Who is this? God.

Rev 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Who is this? THis is God, Jehovah

Rev 1:11
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”

Again, Jehovah.

Rev 1:17
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

Jehovah, right.

Now please read the following

Rev 1:18
“I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."

Could you please explain to me "When did Jehovah die?"

Jesus is saying that He is God by using the same phrases that Jehovah uses in Isaiah. So, he either is God or crazy or a liar.

C.S.Lewis said.

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God”. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
 

KodMoS

Banned
Game Analyst said:
1) In regards to 1Tim3:16 from Barnes.



But even if the word there is "who" instead of "God", you have to ask yourself- Who is it speaking of? Who is Paul writing about? The context is the same.

And the same applies to the next verse:


2) In regards to 1John 5:7 (Also from Barnes)



3) Regarding the Heb 1:10

I don't understand what you are talking about. The reference in the Psalm is to God being the one who laid the foundations and so on, speaking of creation, not Solomon, especially since it was David who probably wrote this psalm.

The writer of Hebrews is saying that Psalm 102:25 was speaking of Jesus as the creator, so then all you have to do is go to Genesis 1.

Could you please answer the following questions?

Isa 41:4
Who has performed and done it, Calling the generations from the beginning? ‘I, the LORD, am the first; And with the last I am He.’”

Who is this? This is God, Jehovah.

Isa 44:6
“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Again,who is this? This is God, Jehovah. God makes sure we understand that there is no other God.

On a side note, "God" there is plural "Elohim", a compound word that means 3 or more. Same word used in Genesis 1.

Isa 48:12
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last."

Who is this? God.

Rev 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Who is this? THis is God, Jehovah

Rev 1:11
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”

Again, Jehovah.

Rev 1:17
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

Jehovah, right.

Now please read the following

Rev 1:18
“I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."

Could you please explain to me "When did Jehovah die?"

Jesus is saying that He is God by using the same phrases that Jehovah uses in Isaiah. So, he either is God or crazy or a liar.

C.S.Lewis said.

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God”. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”


So is this your entire tactic? Just ignore the scriptures that I previous quoted and just post another scripture that you believe support the Trinity doctrine (or the belief that Jesus is God)? That's not debating at all. You just want to post scripture without answering to any of the scriptures that I quoted. This is another tactic used by those who support the idea that Jesus is God, since there are many scripture that contradict the belief that Jesus is God almighty.

I stated that 1 Timothy 3:16 does not include the word "God" Greek, and that is my point. You used a translation that calls Jesus God in this passage when it was false. Who is it talking about? Jesus obviously. Does it call him God in this passage? No. I used 1 John 5:7 as an example of words inserted in the text by Trinitarians to support their false doctrine.



You don't understand what I'm talking about in regards to Hebrews chapter 1? Well it's important that you do. You're using this chapter to prove Jesus is God, and if you're using these passages to prove that he is God, then you also have to prove Men are God too since most these prophetic words were applied to men also.

The fact is, these scriptures were applied to Jesus and Solomon, but it doesn't mean the verse is talking about them directly.

You're using false logic to prove Jesus is God. When the same Logic you're using is applied to anyone other than Jesus, you completely ignore it. I stated before, and I will say it again - The most of the prophetic words quoted in Hebrews chapter 1 were first applied to Men. Solomon sat on YHWHs throne, which is why Psalms 45: 6-7 was first applied to him. All things were made through Jesus which is why Hebrews 1:10 was applied to him. Yet still doesn't mean he created all things, he just took part in fulfilling the scripture.


Example: Zechariah 14:3 says YHWH fought before in battle, yet the one who actually fought in battle was actually David and not literally Jehovah.




So now you're talking about the first and the last?

Again, you're using false Trinitarian logic, scriptural logic. Just because God and Jesus both were called the first and the last, doesn't mean they're both the same. Just like kings were call kings of kings just like YHWH and Jesus, does not make them all the same. You cannot use this false logic when it also has connection to men.



Elohim? There no evidence that Elohim means multiple beings or persons within themselves (compound), so your understanding of this is false. Exodus 7:1 says Moses was made God (elohim) to Pharaoh. There are several scriptures just like this that prove your understanding is false.

Jesus is actually speaking in Revelation 1:17,18 not God almighty. The first and the Last is not an exclusive title, they are just phrases used in different context. Using this logic is not scriptural, so it's best not to use it. You're going to have major flaws in your interpretation when you can apply the same logic to men.
 

KodMoS

Banned
This is going no where. I can't even debate with someone who chooses to ignore points and scriptures backing up my statements.. It's like a one sided argument.
 

Chaplain

Member
KodMoS said:
This is going no where. I can't even debate with someone who chooses to ignore points and scriptures backing up my statements.. It's like a one sided argument.

I ignore certain points because I would be sitting here all day responding to each of your lies about Jesus. The Bible, from cover to cover, says Jesus is the God of the entire Bible. The only people, of faith, that do not agree with this statement are Jehovah Witnesses, Mormon's or unbelievers.

According to you, translations are inaccurate when it comes to the deity of Christ. So, God made a huge mistake by not making everyone read and speak Greek because people are now deceived into believing a lie from Satan. I believe that is what you continue to hint at by saying it doesn't say that in original Greek language. My professors at the seminary I attend, who speak Greek, do not have a problem with Jesus being God because the Bible says Jesus is God (God's Son who always existed).

You do not believe what is in the Bible about Jesus being God. That is your choice. Christian dogma, from the beginning, has said that Jesus is the God of the Bible.

Thanks for your time.
 

JGS

Banned
Romans 6 is great since it explains what happens to us as sinners.

Can anything be more succinct than Romans 6:21-23 about the matter?
21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It seems so fair especially in relation to what we can gain and lose by resisting sin.
 

Chaplain

Member
"If anyone is wrestling with depression, I have good news for you: You’re in the right place, for Romans 8 is the true antidote for depression. You see, when a person is going through depression, it is always in one of three areas. He is either haunted by something in his past, anxious about something in his future, or weighed down by something presently."

Romans 8
 

Chaplain

Member
The following subjects will be discussed in this lesson:

The purpose of prayer
Remembering that regardless of our circumstances, God causes everything to work together for our good.
God's predestination vs. humanities free will
Who condemns believers when we sin? Satan.
Who convicts believers when we sin? The Holy Spirit.
Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love?


Romans 8
 

Chaplain

Member
Please tune in to our Sunday Morning broadcast that is about to start in 5 minutes. Below is the information for the service:

Sunday Morning, November 20th, 2011 — 7:30am, 9:30 am & 12:00 pm (PST)
Marriage & Family: “God's Role for Women, Part 1” Ephesians 5:22-24
by Pastor Xavier Ries


Webcast Link
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom