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JGS

Banned
It is not without context. The context is given. Why do you say 'as the actions of Hajar and her son'? When it was Sarah who dealt with her harshly?




Ethnicity seems the entire focus of the verse above. There is a story of a woman who is taken to Abraham (alayhis salaam) as a slave, then given to him by his wife, who is barren. Then when she comes with child, begins to despise her mistress, which is not shown through actions but seen 'in her eyes'. Then Sarah, when presented with an option of what to do with her slave, casts her out into the desert, alone, with her child.

At which point God sends an angel to save her and her child. Then all of a sudden the narrative switches up into a rant about race and her offspring. Where the 'Lord hath heard of her affliction', yet suddenly responds by decreeing that her son shall be a 'wild ass of a man', something which will be in the face of all of his descendants.

If not viewing this as a later addition by Jewish commentators in light of their circumstances and tribalism, how does a modern Christian interpret verses that seem so racially charged? They were previously, when racism was not such an issue, interpreted in a racist way. When did the shift from this interpretation occur?
I misunderstood the ethnicity angle and I also am getting that you're saying the commentary is actually added verses that we read in the Bible correct? Also, Hagar is clearly Egyptian but still race is not an issue. The issue with race isn't from Sarai or Abraham. From the verses, God is reassuring her that she will not be forgotten and a race would be formed from Ishmael since he wasn't going to claim and inheritance with God's chosen descendants of Abraham. So I reread the story and genesis 16 explains why I say Hagar & Ishmael have issues:
1 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.”
Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.
When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my slave in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me.”
6 “Your slave is in your hands,” Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.
The account is kind of funny in a old couple sort of way. To be clear, Sarah was wrong to recommend her servant to begin with Abraham didn't want her and she lost faith in God promising her a son. She was also wrong in thinking that she could simply adopt her slave's kid to fulfill God's promise. In any event, the slave forgot her place because she was pregnant with her master's kid. Sarah punished her and she ran away.

Personally I think it's a mistake to think that the hatred was as instantaneous as a glance. This had been Sarah's servant for at least some months if not longer.

Several years later, Ishmael, as a teen, is the one causing problems and they are finally, with God's permission and protection, thrown out of Abraham's camp. I'm still not getting the rant part as the story flows nicely and reveals the flaws & blessings of all involved from Sarah, Hagar, Abraham, & Ishmael.

Ishmael's descendant became a huge nation and he apparently continued to play a role in his father's life. The wild comment was an insult, it was a character trait to reflect that he would prefer to go his own way.
 
I misunderstood the ethnicity angle and I also am getting that you're saying the commentary is actually added verses that we read in the Bible correct? Also, Hagar is clearly Egyptian but still race is not an issue. The issue with race isn't from Sarai or Abraham. From the verses, God is reassuring her that she will not be forgotten and a race would be formed from Ishmael since he wasn't going to claim and inheritance with God's chosen descendants of Abraham. So I reread the story and genesis 16 explains why I say Hagar & Ishmael have issues:

Like I said, the racist interpretation is one that was dominant, as far as I am aware, for the majority of Christian history. I am asking how the moving away from this understanding occurred. The deriding of Ishmael as a 'wild ass' whose 'hand will be against all' is clearly applied not only to himself but also to 'all his descendants'. There is a clear distinction made, with Hajar being shown as Egyptian. This makes sense in the context of the composition of that particular verse, which most believe to have occurred in the 'Exhilic' period, where there is a clear motivation for describing people in such a manner.
The account is kind of funny in a old couple sort of way. To be clear, Sarah was wrong to recommend her servant to begin with Abraham didn't want her and she lost faith in God promising her a son. She was also wrong in thinking that she could simply adopt her slave's kid to fulfill God's promise. In any event, the slave forgot her place because she was pregnant with her master's kid. Sarah punished her and she ran away.
Forgot her place? I have seen nothing to indicate that, at least not in the verses I have read. There seem to accounts, one is where she 'flees her mistresses hand' and the other is where she is 'cast out'. Both appear to either be separate instances, or the same.
Several years later, Ishmael, as a teen, is the one causing problems and they are finally, with God's permission and protection, thrown out of Abraham's camp. I'm still not getting the rant part as the story flows nicely and reveals the flaws & blessings of all involved from Sarah, Hagar, Abraham, & Ishmael.
Ishmael is causing problems? To what specifically do you refer? Are you talking about this:

8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, 10 and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.”

11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. 13 I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”

14 Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba.

15 When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went off and sat down about a bowshot away, for she thought, “I cannot watch the boy die.” And as she sat there, she[c] began to sob.

17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.

20 God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.


The word could either mean 'playing', 'teasing' or 'mocking', the language is ambiguous. The account does however seem quite harrowing initially, where a slave woman is cast out into the desert with her child, and, thinking her child about to die, leaves him so she does not have to watch as he passes away. Then God gives her succour and promises him a great nation.
Ishmael's descendant became a huge nation and he apparently continued to play a role in his father's life. The wild comment was an insult, it was a character trait to reflect that he would prefer to go his own way.
As I understand it, this is not the way that it has traditionally been understood. We come back to the use of the word 'Saracens' to describe the Arabs: 'those that Sarah cast out', as well as the use of the story as a metaphor for the law and grace, where Sarah is viewed as the positive, and Hajar the negative.
 

JGS

Banned
Like I said, the racist interpretation is one that was dominant, as far as I am aware, for the majority of Christian history. I am asking how the moving away from this understanding occurred. The deriding of Ishmael as a 'wild ass' whose 'hand will be against all' is clearly applied not only to himself but also to 'all his descendants'. There is a clear distinction made, with Hajar being shown as Egyptian. This makes sense in the context of the composition of that particular verse, which most believe to have occurred in the 'Exhilic' period, where there is a clear motivation for describing people in such a manner.
It's not clear though and I already explained the wild ass/zebra comment. Neither of those are racist terms, there are personality traits.
Forgot her place? I have seen nothing to indicate that, at least not in the verses I have read. There seem to accounts, one is where she 'flees her mistresses hand' and the other is where she is 'cast out'. Both appear to either be separate instances, or the same.
It wasn't her place because she was the servant. This is all semantics at this point because you assume she didn't do anything beyond look at Sarah funny. I assume there was more to it than a glance.
Ishmael is causing problems? To what specifically do you refer? Are you talking about this:



The word could either mean 'playing', 'teasing' or 'mocking', the language is ambiguous. The account does however seem quite harrowing initially, where a slave woman is cast out into the desert with her child, and, thinking her child about to die, leaves him so she does not have to watch as he passes away. Then God gives her succour and promises him a great nation.
He was teasing or mocking. It happening on his day and him being about 5 years old and it being written to explain this seems to indicate it was pretty harsh. Plus, Sarah, for whatever reason, links this to Isaac's inheritance meaning that could have been what the mocking was about.

I still can't understand why you throw the race card in there when it still seems like Sarah has personal issues with Hagar & Ishmael that God, knowing more than we do, backs her up on even when Abraham doesn't.
As I understand it, this is not the way that it has traditionally been understood. We come back to the use of the word 'Saracens' to describe the Arabs: 'those that Sarah cast out', as well as the use of the story as a metaphor for the law and grace, where Sarah is viewed as the positive, and Hajar the negative.
Sarah is portrayed in a negative light too as is Abraham. How someone who is born a slave but is made a nation can be considered an overall negative turn of events is odd. Jewish record of the account has little ill will toward Ishmael & his descendants, so a made up account should have been a bit more hostile than alluding to race by calling some a wild horse.
 
It isnt me playing the race card bro. It is the traditional Christian and Jewish interpretation of the verse. You are the one with the divergent interpretation in this respect.

It is not merely Ishmael (alayhis salaam) who is called a wild ass, but it is said that this will be the character of all his defendants, those 'of Egypt'.

The Hebrew word in question could imply playing just as much as teasing. The use of 'teasing' is a deliberate one by the translator, for whatever reason.

My central point here isnt to debate the verses in question though, it is to ask if anyone is familiar with the way that mainstream Christian biblical exegesis moved away from this understanding. As, as seems clear from what I have read, up until quite recently, this was the primary understanding, one that resides alongside the 'Hajar as analogy for the law' explanation.

You attempting to say that it is not a racist narrative is besides the point, as traditionally it has been one. The understandings, both Jewish and Christian, were of a condemnation of not just Ishmael (alayhis salaam) but his entire 'nation', having its origins in Abram's (alayhis salaam) lineage tainted by the blood of Egypt.
 

JGS

Banned
It isnt me playing the race card bro. It is the traditional Christian and Jewish interpretation of the verse. You are the one with the divergent interpretation in this respect.
I'm telling you that as a Christian this is not the traditional interpretation of the verse. I have never heard of Jews or Christians singling out Egyptians over Sarah & Hagar ever. Now if you are saying that the Scriptural verses of the account itself are the proof, I still don't buy that because there is a clear misinterpretation of what a "wild ass" denotes and the significance of what God tells Hagar.

It is not merely Ishmael (alayhis salaam) who is called a wild ass, but it is said that this will be the character of all his defendants, those 'of Egypt'.
His descendants aren't Egyptians. They are Ishmaelites and they were alweays distinct from Egyptians.
The Hebrew word in question could imply playing just as much as teasing. The use of 'teasing' is a deliberate one by the translator, for whatever reason.
This doesn't matter. The conversation provoked Sarah enough to verify that there was a feud brewing in the family and Sarah & her family took precedent over Hagar & his family. The account makes it pretty clear that Sarah was irrational to an extent just for asking Abraham to sleep with Hagar and this is all a culmination of that whacky decision.
My central point here isnt to debate the verses in question though, it is to ask if anyone is familiar with the way that mainstream Christian biblical exegesis moved away from this understanding. As, as seems clear from what I have read, up until quite recently, this was the primary understanding, one that resides alongside the 'Hajar as analogy for the law' explanation.
The difficulty in answering that is that there is no indication that we moved away from it so more clarity is needed. It would be helpful if you state clearly whether you mean that Christians moved away from Biblical verse or moved away from commentary outside the Bible that explains why this was a race thing.
You attempting to say that it is not a racist narrative is besides the point, as traditionally it has been one. The understandings, both Jewish and Christian, were of a condemnation of not just Ishmael (alayhis salaam) but his entire 'nation', having its origins in Abram's (alayhis salaam) lineage tainted by the blood of Egypt.
It's only beside the point to the extent that you can verify things. At this point, you are making a statement and I'm simply making one back. I admit to being a skeptic of it and since it's your statement, it would be nice to have some kind of source to the racism you speak of.

I'm also not necessarily arguing it, just that I have never heard of it beyond the admonition to not mix with other nations in general. Maybe if someone else can chime in on it.
 
I do not mean to call you ignorant of the history of your religion bro, but I can assure you that that is one of the predominant interpretations. When I return home I will give you some references. I can scan some primary sources for you even :D

Your request for them is reasonable :) it is however interesting that something so mainstream is not taught to you.

As to the ass thing, it is very clear that the verse is referring to both Ishmael (alayhis salaam) and his descendants, the Ishmaelite's (Arabs).

'And he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren.'

As to your other question, as to what they have moved on from, it is the interpretation. The Old Testament is clearly written by various people across time, all of whom use it at various points to air their grievances against other nations/races.

In this respect, as we aren't talking about the NT, I don't know that Christians would take it as.. Gospel.. would they? 
 

JGS

Banned
I do not mean to call you ignorant of the history of your religion bro, but I can assure you that that is one of the predominant interpretations. When I return home I will give you some references. I can scan some primary sources for you even :D

Your request for them is reasonable :) it is however interesting that something so mainstream is not taught to you.
Yep, new to me & not being a scholar, I'm fine with being schooled. I am still grasping the trinity after all.

To be clear, the idea Jews wannting a pure heritage is not new, just specifically the notion that it started with Sarah & Hagar.

As to the ass thing, it is very clear that the verse is referring to both Ishmael (alayhis salaam) and his descendants, the Ishmaelite's (Arabs).

'And he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren.'
I agree with this. It's going to be a personality trait of his people and it was. They're like the Dothraki in Game of Thrones with maybe a few less horses.
As to your other question, as to what they have moved on from, it is the interpretation. The Old Testament is clearly written by various people across time, all of whom use it at various points to air their grievances against other nations/races.
Well, I don't agree with this for obvious reasons. The OT was written by various people (Which is a good thing), but it is highly unified in thought. The primary reason that there are grievances with other nations constantly is because of God backing only one of them at the time and that one was linked to Abraham & Isaac. It didn't stay that way though.
In this respect, as we aren't talking about the NT, I don't know that Christians would take it as.. Gospel.. would they? 
Which is why we have the NT. However, the NT exists primarily to show how God's dealings with Israel foreshadowed something greater to come. You can't have one without the other without considering the NT flawed as much as the OT. That's another debate though lol.
 

Helscream

Banned
Nice job on the scriptures there Game Analyst. I think most people who read The Bible do not realize just how intelligent or how well versed the Apostle Paul/Sha'ul was in The Torah or really the Old Testament/Tanahkh in general. He sat at the feet of of Gamaliel I. Which is (from my understanding) one of the most revered Rabbi's to ever live.

Paul the Apostle was extremely intelligent and because he had so much knowledge of the old testament. He could undeniably prove that Jesus was the Messiah. And could easily refer to all the prophecies that were fulfilled. It doesn't surprise me he ended up writing 2/3 of the New Testament.

Since am I new among your ranks I will share a verse I have always looked to that proves the unparalleled might of the God of Israel.

Psalms 82:

1. God (YHWH) stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods(Elohim).

2. How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked?

3. Defend the poor and the fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4. Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.

5. They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.

6. I said, "You are gods(Elohim),
And all of you are children of the
Most High (YHWH).

7. But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes."

8. Arise, O God(YHWH), judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.


I added YHWH and Elohim in parenthesis to clarify the identity of who is God is talking to. I truly love this chapter in Psalms because it means all of those false gods and deities will die like men. So Christians that concerned about the existence of other deities do not need to worry. Because regardless if they exist or not, our God is omnipotent and His strength is unparallelled.
 

Chaplain

Member
"Love Costs Every Thing" Trailer

Christ In Youth presents, in association with The Voice of the Martyrs, "Love Costs Every Thing".

Persecution is a reality for nearly two hundred million Christians around the world. Daily, they risk their lives simply because they believe in Jesus. They could surrender, or convert, or quit but the love of Jesus is worth the sacrifice. For many of them, this road leads to death.

Christ In Youth invites you on a journey around the world. From the jungles of Colombia to the war-torn streets of Baghdad, LOVE COSTS EVERY THING tells the real-life stories of Christians standing firm in the face of death.

Though persecution is severe, the faithful continue to rise. The church is advancing. God’s people are risking it all in the name of love. And it is worth it, because love costs every thing.
 

Chaplain

Member
Expect to be tested.

Matthew 4:1
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.


If God is calling you to do something for Him, expect to be tested. Temptation is a test of your true character. Literally, it is a proving of the heart -- a demonstration of your inner motives. It challenges your convictions and exposes your weaknesses. But it serves an important purpose.

Jesus, here in Matthew 4, is being led up into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. No doubt He was dreading such a trip -- He hadn't eaten in 40 days, the weather was likely hot, and the mountainous terrain would be rugged. But it wasn't the devil who led Him up into the wilderness, it was the Spirit of God.

Yes, the Holy Spirit led Jesus. Notice that word "led." The transliterated Greek word is "anago," which means "to lead up into a higher place." You see, the Holy Spirit was leading Jesus into a higher place. And today, it's so important for you to understand that a testing from God will lead you into a higher place. So often we think that when negative things happen, they bring us down. But God's plan is to take you to a higher place. He wants to broaden your perspective, to deepen your understanding. And when you overcome, you will see that the real purpose of the test was not merely for you to succeed in a challenge, but for the Holy Spirit to empower you like never before.

Maybe you are in the middle of temptations right now. Maybe you are experiencing challenging testings. Realize that God is leading you with a purpose. Life's trials and setbacks will make you either bitter or better. They will leave you empowered by God -- strengthened in spirit and grateful in heart -- or bitter and defeated. It all depends on whether you place your focus on yourself, or on the Lord. After all, the only difference between being bitter and better is the letter "I".
 

Chaplain

Member
Dr. Wallace: Earliest Manuscript of the New Testament Discovered?

http://www.dts.edu/read/wallace-new-testament-manscript-first-century/

Note: Several websites (NT Blog, Gospel Coalition, Andreas Köstenberger, Evangelical Textual Criticism, Hypotyposeis, etc.) have been writing about Dan Wallace's comments to Bart Erhman about the discovery of several New Testament papyri. Dr. Wallace has already written a summary of the debate, and below he clarifies what these papyri might mean.

On 1 February 2012, I debated Bart Ehrman at UNC Chapel Hill on whether we have the wording of the original New Testament today. This was our third such debate, and it was before a crowd of more than 1000 people. I mentioned that seven New Testament papyri had recently been discovered—six of them probably from the second century and one of them probably from the first. These fragments will be published in about a year.

These fragments now increase our holdings as follows: we have as many as eighteen New Testament manuscripts from the second century and one from the first. Altogether, more than 43% of all New Testament verses are found in these manuscripts. But the most interesting thing is the first-century fragment.

It was dated by one of the world’s leading paleographers. He said he was ‘certain’ that it was from the first century. If this is true, it would be the oldest fragment of the New Testament known to exist. Up until now, no one has discovered any first-century manuscripts of the New Testament. The oldest manuscript of the New Testament has been P52, a small fragment from John’s Gospel, dated to the first half of the second century. It was discovered in 1934.

Not only this, but the first-century fragment is from Mark’s Gospel. Before the discovery of this fragment, the oldest manuscript that had Mark in it was P45, from the early third century (c. AD 200–250). This new fragment would predate that by 100 to 150 years.

How do these manuscripts change what we believe the original New Testament to say? We will have to wait until they are published next year, but for now we can most likely say this: As with all the previously published New Testament papyri (127 of them, published in the last 116 years), not a single new reading has commended itself as authentic. Instead, the papyri function to confirm what New Testament scholars have already thought was the original wording or, in some cases, to confirm an alternate reading—but one that is already found in the manuscripts. As an illustration: Suppose a papyrus had the word “the Lord” in one verse while all other manuscripts had the word “Jesus.” New Testament scholars would not adopt, and have not adopted, such a reading as authentic, precisely because we have such abundant evidence for the original wording in other manuscripts. But if an early papyrus had in another place “Simon” instead of “Peter,” and “Simon” was also found in other early and reliable manuscripts, it might persuade scholars that “Simon” is the authentic reading. In other words, the papyri have confirmed various readings as authentic in the past 116 years, but have not introduced new authentic readings. The original New Testament text is found somewhere in the manuscripts that have been known for quite some time.

These new papyri will no doubt continue that trend. But, if this Mark fragment is confirmed as from the first century, what a thrill it will be to have a manuscript that is dated within the lifetime of many of the eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection!
 

t-ramp

Member
Have any of you guys watched courageous? What did you think?
I watched it with the family a week or two ago. As a film it's done well enough, although the overall story isn't strong enough to carry the whole movie, which makes it feel unfocused at times. Despite that, it has some entertaining and interesting subplots. The Christianity is overt as one would expect, although as a skeptic (at best) I didn't find it too annoying. It probably won't convert anybody, though.
 

Chaplain

Member
Sunday Morning (Expostional Sermons)

2/12/2012 One Nation Under God (Selected Scriptures)
2/5/2012 Paul, the Loving Shepherd (1 Corinthinas 1:1-9)
1/29/2012 Marriage and Divorce (Matthew 19:1-12)
1/22/2012 God's Role for Parents (Ephesians 6:4)
1/15/2012 God's Role for Children, Pt. 2 (Ephesians 6:2-3)
1/8/2012 God's Role for Children, Pt. 1 (Ephesians 6:1)
1/1/2012 The Believer's Heavenly Hope (2 Peter 3)
12/25/2011 The Greatest Day (Selected Scriptures)
12/18/2011 The Two Shall Become One Flesh (Ephesians 5:31)
12/11/2011 God's Role for Men, Pt. 2 (Ephesians 5:31-33)
12/4/2011 God's Role for Men, Pt. 1 (Ephesians 5:25-30)
11/27/2011 God's Role for Women, Pt. 2 (Ephesians 5:22-24)
11/20/2011 God's Role for Women, Pt. 1 (Ephesians 5;22-24)
11/13/2011 Christian Submission (Ephesians 5:21)
11/6/2011 Life in the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18)
10/30/2011 The Source of Joy in Marriage (John 2:1-12)

Sunday Evening (Through the Bible)

2/12/2012 The Mission of Jesus (Mark 1:91-15)
2/5/2012 Introduction to 1 Corinthians
1/22/2012 The Church and Her Vision (Selected Scriptures)
1/15/2012 The Opposition Within the Church (Selected Scriptures)
12/18/2011 Jesus, Redeemer (Selected Scriptures)
12/11/2011 The Lordship of Christ (Selected Scriptures)
12/4/2011 The Distinguishing Mark of the Church (Selected Scriptures)
11/27/2011 The Life-Transforming Twins of the Church
11/20/2011 The Life Source of the Church
11/13/2011 The Priesthood of the Believer (Selected Scriptures)
11/6/2011 God Created Everything (Genesis 1:1)
10/30/2011 What is the Church? (Selected Scriptures)

Tuesday Evening Men's Bible Study

2/14/2012 2 Samuel 15
2/7/2012 2 Samuel 14
1/31/2012 2 Samuel 13
1/24/2012 2 Samuel 12
1/17/2012 2 Samuel 11
1/10/2012 2 Samuel 10
1/3/2011 2 Samuel 9
11/29/2011 2 Samuel 8
11/22/2011 2 Samuel 7
11/15/2011 2 Samuel 6
11/8/2011 2 Samuel 5
11/1/2011 2 Samuel 4
10/25/2011 2 Samuel 3
10/18/2011 2 Samuel 2
10/10/2011 2 Samuel 1

Tuesday Evening Women's Bible Study

2/14/2012 The Revived Heart (Psalm 119:25-40)
2/7/2012 The Healed Heart (Psalm 77)
1/24/2012 The Worshipful Heart (Psalm 145)
1/17/2012 The Trusting Heart (Psalm 37)
1/10/2012 The Seeking Heart (Psalm 63)
11/22/2011 The Comforted Heart (Psalm 23)
11/15/2011 The Disciplined Heart (Psalm 1)
11/8/2011 The Encouraged Heart (Psalm 31)
11/1/2011 The Forgiven Heart (Psalm 32)
10/25/2011 Search My Heart (Psalm 139)
10/18/2011 The Heart (Various Scriptures)
10/11/2011 Introduction (Various Scriptures)

Thursday Evening Bible Study (In-Depth)

2/16/2012 The Coming of Jesus for His Church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18)
2/9/2012 The Death and Sorrow of the Believer (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14)
1/26/2012 Brotherly Love (1 Thessalonians 4:9-12)
1/19/2012 A Call to Sexual Purity, Pt. 2 (1 Thessalonians 4:6b-8)
1/12/2012 A Call to Sexual Purity, Pt. 1 (1 Thessalonians 4:3-6a)
12/29/2011 The Future of Israel (Ezekiel 37:1-14)
12/22/2011 A Gift for All Ages (Isaiah 9:6)
12/15/2011 A Call to Holiness (1 Thessalonians 4:1-2)
12/8/2011 Paul's Abounding Love (1 Thessalonians 3:11-13)
11/17/2011 Paul's Joyful Love (1 Thessalonians 3:6-10)
11/10/2011 Paul's Sacrificial Love (1 Thessalonians 3:1-5)
10/27/2011 Paul's Undying Love (1 Thessalonians 2:17-20)
10/20/2011 Christ's Encounter with a Young Man (Matthew 19:16-22)
10/13/2011 Jewish Opposition to the Gospel (1 Thessalonians 2:15-16)
9/29/2011 Verdict for the Defense (1 Thessalonians 2:13-14)
9/22/2011 The Evidence of Conduct (1 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
9/15/2011 The Evidence of Character (1 Thessalonians 2:5-8)
9/8/2011 Witness for the Defense (1 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
8/25/2011 Marks of a Model Church (1 Thessalonians 1:8-10)
8/18/2011 The Gospel of Salvation (1 Thessalonians 1:5-7)
8/11/2011 Why Suffering? (Acts 8:1-8)
8/4/2011 Prayer (Jeremiah 33:3)
7/28/2011 Paul's Prayer of Thanks (1 Thessalonians 1:2-4)
7/21/2011 Paul Greets the Thessalonians (1 Thessalonians 1:1)
7/14/2011 Introduction to 1 Thessalonians
6/30/2011 The Holy Spirit's Personality (Selected Scriptures)

Marriage Ministry Bible Study

2/26/2011 Life in the Spirit (Valentine's Dinner)
 

Sweeper17

Neo Member
Thing about god is if you believe in him he comes to you everything in your life since day1 he already knows how you will die and if you will believe in him or not. He knows everything about you before your born.
 

Canuck76

Banned
Have any of you guys watched courageous? What did you think?

I actually like those movies quite a bit. I know it is a bit cheesy in some spots but it is a good message and i think it's good to be taking in something with a positive message rather than constantly taking in crap.

Had an interesting back and forth, me and a old friend on facebook, who have taken drastically different paths through life. He and i both went to the same Lutheran school but after we went to high school i kept going to church and he stopped and got into the bad side of the internet, (basically desensitizing himself ) had a huge falling out with his parents (they're super rich so they just gave him a bunch of money and left him alone when they moved out of their house and went somewhere else for work) and now from what i get the sense of is pretty lonely and in a bad place.

Anyways we talk occasionally and we were having a conversation about why he left the church and he was just hating on christianity and i was just asking him why and whatnot, because i can certainely understand atheisim and get why someone would believe that, but he eventually just blocked me so i thought that was that. Well today i see an apology so it'll be interesting just to see where this goes.

Pray for this kid and if anything pray for his relationships with his family which are really broken. While he's pretty wealthy he's had a tough life and his parents have always been super demanding and his brother is a mental case (threatned my sister with a knife, got in trouble numerous times for stealing, went to a military school eventually) and he's always just kind of wanted a more normal life for himself.
 
Is The Word (that Christ is the Son of God) and the Trinity one and the same belief or they can be separate? For example, whilst Unitarianism doesn't believe in the Trinity, do they believe that Christ was the Son of God?

To be a Christian of any denomination, must you believe that Jesus was the Son of God and if not then what fundamentals must you believe in to be a Christian of any kind?
 

JGS

Banned
Is The Word (that Christ is the Son of God) and the Trinity one and the same belief or they can be separate? For example, whilst Unitarianism doesn't believe in the Trinity, do they believe that Christ was the Son of God?

To be a Christian of any denomination, must you believe that Jesus was the Son of God and if not then what fundamentals must you believe in to be a Christian of any kind?

To be Christian you have to believe Jesus.

So if Jesus says he's the son of God then we believe (of course this doesn't mean we believe just because he says so. There is ample evidence in the Bible to verify it)

Jesus saying he is the son of God and him saying he belongs to a Trinity are different things though.
 
To be Christian you have to believe Jesus.

So if Jesus says he's the son of God then we believe (of course this doesn't mean we believe just because he says so. There is ample evidence in the Bible to verify it)

Jesus saying he is the son of God and him saying he belongs to a Trinity are different things though.

Are there any denominations that do not see him as the Son of God? Is this a fundamental universal belief?
 

Emwitus

Member
To be Christian, no, to be a child of God, you need to accept that Christ was sent by God to die for your sins and obey God's commandments. Because their is only one way to the father and faith without works is dead. All in all, he judges the heart and only he can know who realy is for him and we wil know them by their works.
 
We're having this in England of what it means to be Christian and I came across this comment by the Arbishop of Canterbury; he is Anglican and plays a prominent role as a public face of Christianity in the country.

Q. You were a prominent part of a Spectator survey in the current issue which headlined' Do you believe in the virgin birth?' there are some people in this survey who would say they were Christian who don't have a problem if you don't believe in the Virgin birth;' how important it is it to believe in that bit?

Bishop: I don't want to set it as a kind of hurdle that people have to get over before they, you know, be signed up;, but I think quite a few people that as time goes on, they get a sense, a deeper sense of what the virgin birth is about. I would say that of myself. About thirty years ago I might have said I wasn't too fussed about it - now I see it much more as dovetailing with the rest of what I believe about the story and yes​

Believing in the virgin birth of Christ isn't a required belief to be a Christian, or shouldn't be. What do you make of this?
 

Chaplain

Member
Believing in the virgin birth of Christ isn't a required belief to be a Christian, or shouldn't be. What do you make of this?

Believing in the virgin birth is not required to be saved (only Jesus saves a person).

The Bible clearly says though that Mary was a virgin and that this was foretold hundreds of years before Jesus' birth:

Matthew 1:22-23
All of this occurred to fulfill the Lord’s message through his prophet: “Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel, which means ‘God is with us.’” - New Living Translation (NLT)

Matthew 1:22-23
All this took place that it might be fulfilled which the Lord had spoken through the prophet, Behold, the virgin shall become pregnant and give birth to a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel--which, when translated, means, God with us. - Amplified Bible (AMP)

Matthew 1:22-23
Now all this is come to pass, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us. - American Standard Version (ASV)

Matthew 1:22-23
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” - New King James Version (NKJV)

A person who doesn't believe what the Bible says actually has an issue with God. A person who doesn't know God very well is not going to believe what His Word says. Both go hand in hand.
 
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