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[KodMoS]

This is becoming a tried and circular argument. Both sides have presented what they feel is conclusive evidence to support their position, and neither side is willing to capitulate to the other. It's time to agree to disagree and move on. The reality is that all major Christian denominations acknowledge God and the Trinity, so for the sake of this thread, it seems reasonable to operate under this general assumption, while acknowledging that there are some people who disagree. This may seem unfair to those who deny the Trinity, but Christian doctrine clearly teaches the trinity of the Godhead, and to stray from this theological principle is to be no longer be operating within the confines of Christianity (which is what this thread is for). To continue to argue the point (particularly when no new ground is being made) is akin to debating the merits of Islam or Mormonism versus Christianity. Those are certainly valid discussions to be had, but not the purpose of this thread. I invite those who wish to continue to the debate to open a new thread in which the merits of the Christian faith can be argued.

You're missing the point of the argument. Someone basically asked why does this matter (in regards to the trinity) and then someone responded by saying the Bible teaches it, which I stated was false.

There are many Christian groups who do not teach the Trinity doctrine, so this is in fact a Christian topic.

With all of this said, debates lead to nowhere so I'm not going to in depth with this argument. Again, the point I was making is that no where in the Bible does it explain the doctrine. Many trinitarians will agree to that fact but they do believe shows that God is a Triune God.

 

[JGS]

This is becoming a tried and circular argument. Both sides have presented what they feel is conclusive evidence to support their position, and neither side is willing to capitulate to the other.

It's not really that circular and some who believe in the trinity take it a step further by indicating that something completely unverified in the Scriptures is what determines if you're a Christian. Since it can be assumed that most everyone actually wants to be a Christian if that's what they are claiming, then it makes sense that non-trinitarians would want to know a more concrete reason for their heathenism than a chart indicating it.

It's time to agree to disagree and move on. The reality is that all major Christian denominations acknowledge God and the Trinity, so for the sake of this thread, it seems reasonable to operate under this general assumption, while acknowledging that there are some people who disagree.

It's extremely fair to acknowledge the majoriy od Christian churches believe in the trinity. However....

This may seem unfair to those who deny the Trinity, but Christian doctrine clearly teaches the trinity of the Godhead, and to stray from this theological principle is to be no longer be operating within the confines of Christianity (which is what this thread is for). To continue to argue the point (particularly when no new ground is being made) is akin to debating the merits of Islam or Mormonism versus Christianity.

This is not accurate and it's very unfair. It doesn't matter how many billions believe something if the root doctrine doesn't teach it. To stray away from the prionciples of the trinity is simply to draw closer to what jesus originally taught. This is not a strength in numbers type argument. If anything, it's a lesson for distibnguishing when something became Doctrine and the line in the sand regarding the trinity is clear as day and much later than the writing of the Scriptures.

Those are certainly valid discussions to be had, but not the purpose of this thread. I invite those who wish to continue to the debate to open a new thread in which the merits of the Christian faith can be argued.

This thread is about Christianity and the flippant way in which ones who can legtimatley have doubts regarding the trinity are dismissed just like in this post is the very reason the discussion continues. There are many more, valid discussions to be had instead of ones about the trinity (Which from my POV is worthless), but if some trinitarians don't even welcome us to the table, then it makes other "valid" discussions moot- EDIT: Inlcuding ones discussing faith since I have faith that the trinity is a false teaching simply adopted by the masses.

Therefore, it is often best to discuss new topics and have separate paths. It's going to be a cold day in Tuscon before I let someone determine without validation that I'm not Christian which means we can all continue to discuss things as we feel are correct. It is perfectly normal for various Christian denominations to have differing beliefs on something, so why the trinity is the thing that hinges on the definition is annoying considering the reason against it are far more convincing.

For the record, I'm not even arguing for or against the trinity anymore, but I will always question the notion of someone thinking they know more while explaining less.

 

[Chaplain]

Galatians 6 - Final Instructions

Helping those who are slaves to sin again.
What is the difference between the carnal man and the spiritual man?
Sharing each other’s burdens means fulfilling the law of Christ.
Believing we are too important to help someone in need.
The trap of comparing ourselves to other people.
Learning when to help and when to receive help.
Giving materially to those who teach us spiritually.
We will always harvest what we plant.
Never give up doing good.
Legalizers hate that the cross of Christ alone can save.
How did Paul lose interest in worldly things?

Ephesians 1 - God’s Ultimate Plan

How God uses our personalities and experiences to be his ministers at work, school, or with our family and friends.
Why ALL believers are saints.

 

[Chaplain]

Some excellent articles on biblical Christian Doctrine and Theology for those that are interested.

Basic Christian Doctrine

Take a Christian Doctrine Test
Yes, there are essential Christian Doctrines
Christian Doctrine: The Bible, God, Creation, and Man
Christian Doctrine: Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Salvation
Essential Doctrines of Christianity
Basic Christian Doctrine
Doctrine Grid - A chart that offers a layout of biblical orthodoxy
Jesus' Two Natures: God and Man
Jesus is God
Jesus is a man
100 Truths About Jesus
Verses showing identity, ministry, and personhood of the Holy Spirit

The Trinity

What is the Trinity?
Response to criticism of "What is the Trinity?"
Another Look at The Trinity
Yet another Look at the Trinity: The Plurality Study
The Ontological and Economic Trinity
List of all New Testament Verses Listed using "hupotasso"
Early Trinitarian Quotes
Verses showing the plurality of God in the Old and New Testaments
Who is God?
Let us make man in our image
If Jesus were not God, then explain...
If God is unchanging, how can Jesus be God in flesh?
Did Paul think Jesus was God?

Objections to the Trinity answered

The Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, and the Communicatio Idiomatum
The word Trinity is not in the Bible
The Trinity is really teaching three gods
Col. 2:9 and Eph. 3:19
God cannot die. Jesus died. Therefore, Jesus is not God.
God cannot be tempted. Jesus was tempted. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God.
If Jesus is God, then who did He pray to?
If Jesus is God, then why did not know the time of His return?
If Jesus is God, why did He say the Father was greater than He?

 

[Sabotage]

Some excellent articles on biblical Christian Doctrine and Theology for those that are interested.

Good post

CARM is an excellent resourcr

 

[JGS]

Not quite sure how one thinks those links help. It's not like they are anymore irrefutable than what's already been stated. Further, that a lot of links considering all the answers should be crystal clear from Scripture.

EDIT:This one was pretty interesting although not so much in a correct way:http://carm.org/questions-if-jesus-god-then-who-did-he-pray

If Jesus is God, then who did He pray to?
by Matt Slick

This is a very common question and the answer is found in understanding the Trinity and the incarnation of Jesus.

The Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all existence. This one God exists as three persons: The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are not three gods, but one God. Each is a separate person, yet each of them is, in essence, divine in nature.

A close analogy of the Trinity can be found by looking at the concept of time. Time is past, present, and future. There are three "aspects" or "parts" of time. This does not mean that there are three "times," but only one. Each is separate, in a sense, yet each shares the same nature, or essence. In a similar way, the Trinity is three separate persons who share the same nature.

The Incarnation
The doctrine of the incarnation in Christian teaching is that Jesus, who is the second person of the Trinity, added to himself human nature and became a man.

The Bible says that Jesus is God in flesh, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.....and the word became flesh and dwelt among us," (John 1:1, 14); and, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). Jesus, therefore, has two natures. He is both God and man.

Jesus is completely human, but He also has a divine nature.

As a man, Jesus needed to pray. When He was praying he was not praying to Himself, but to God the Father.

I thought this was interesting because the time analogy assumes that they are all the same and yet the one statement that answers the question indicates that they are not the same. Am I getting that correctly?

 

[OttomanScribe]

I notice that it doesn't harden the hearts for those who are open to discussing and sharing views. Those with set beliefs are the ones that become hostile (telling me that they want me dead) and I can usually tell where the conversation will go (just by their responses).

To be honest I worry about discussions with those that are 'open' because sometimes this is a negative thing. I am not, for example, open to the assertion that I am not beholden to the laws of gravity. Similarly, neither you, not I, it seems, are 'open', in the sense that we both have ikhlas (certitude) when it comes to our different taruq (paths). This is not a bad thing.

It is however something we should always keep in mind, it is easy to forget that something so obviously logical for me, may seem not nearly so obvious to you.

I always have the intention to continue. At the same time, I do not have time to respond to multiple people in threads that I never talked to in the first place. Luckily, like today, I have plenty of time because I have a week of vacation. In many threads, dozens of people will respond, most of which are their to vent their anger at someone they disagree with. This happens on the gaming side of this forum as well. To many people are her just to yell and debate. These things lead to wasted time and do not benefit others reading the thread.

I know this feeling. However it can often be that one can confuse ikhlas with rage at those who disagree. Sometimes certainty manifests as anger, or even a lack of manners. One cannot fault such people for their convictions, merely point out that an angry word is rarely listened to.

I apologize to you for not continuing the conversation. I will do my best to not have this happen between us in the future.

May the Lord bless you as well.

You have my sincere thanks. May we both find ourselves happy in Jannah (the Garden) when the time comes. Amin.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

Hey guys, hope everyone is well.
Umm, I have little interest in religion but a great interest in culture. I was reading some comments by Neil Degrasse Tyson about the most important literature, etc.. and he recommended reading the bible. I'm not exactly sure I'll follow through with it, but it definitely inspired me to at least check it out.

Whats the most up to date/popular version out there? I'm assuming its public domain so I'm just gonna grab an epub file of it.

Thanks! Happy New Years!

 

[OttomanScribe]

Good post. I think me and OS have had some good interfaith discussions. He is VERY knowledgable about Islam and talking with him Riz or Jason raize is very fun.

Thank you for your kind words. All that is good that you see, is from God, and all praise is due to Him. Anything that you see bad, is from myself, and I ask forgiveness to the Creator for it.

 

[JGS]

Hey guys, hope everyone is well.
Umm, I have little interest in religion but a great interest in culture. I was reading some comments by Neil Degrasse Tyson about the most important literature, etc.. and he recommended reading the bible. I'm not exactly sure I'll follow through with it, but it definitely inspired me to at least check it out.

Whats the most up to date/popular version out there? I'm assuming its public domain so I'm just gonna grab an epub file of it.

Thanks! Happy New Years!

Most popular would be King James and it's also the most literary. Not the most up to date though obviously.

New International is the one I use for general discussions (I think that's the translation at least)

EDIT: More I think about it, the catholic Bible would probably be a bit more popular given their size.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

would there be a perceivable difference between king James and new international to a completely ignorant person? or are they more alike than not?

 

[KodMoS]

would there be a perceivable difference between king James and new international to a completely ignorant person? or are they more alike than not?

The King James version is the most popular one but it's one of the worst Bible translations out there.

 

[JGS]

The King James version is the most popular one but it's one of the worst Bible translations out there.

This is true imo. However, if you like English literature and reading for readings sake, it's not bad as it doesn't actually remove any of the accounts. For faith building and/or research, though, it's a dud.

EDIT: If I'm not mistaken, though, many translation are really modernized translations of King James, so you still run into a problem there unless you research the translation.

 

[KodMoS]

Not quite sure how one thinks those links help. It's not like they are anymore irrefutable than what's already been stated. Further, that a lot of links considering all the answers should be crystal clear from Scripture.

EDIT:This one was pretty interesting although not so much in a correct way:http://carm.org/questions-if-jesus-god-then-who-did-he-pray

I thought this was interesting because the time analogy assumes that they are all the same and yet the one statement that answers the question indicates that they are not the same. Am I getting that correctly?

The logic that is used to support the doctrine is totally flawed. The flawed logic is used to excuse scriptures that disprove the Trinity doctrine.

The site answers critics that if God cannot die and Jesus die that he cannot be God. It states that Jesus didn't die but his the humanity side of Jesus died. That is in no way scriptural. It's basically saying that Jesus' resurrection wasn't really a resurrection.

The site also has a response for John 17:3 where Jesus calls his father the only true God. It states that Both the father and the son are called the true light, so this doesn't exclude the father or the son from being the true light. It also states Jesus is called the only lord, and this doesn't exclude the Father from being Lord. The problem with this that Jesus didnt just call his father the only God but called him the only true God.


Site and the doctrine contradicts it's self many times, which is why there are many bjections to this false doctrine.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Question about marriage.

Can a Christian marry a non-Christian without the obligation of having to convert them?

 

[Buckethead]

Question about marriage.

Can a Christian marry a non-Christian without the obligation of having to convert them?

No.

They "can't" at all.
Goes against reason and common sense.

See 2 Corinthians: "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"

Also, Chris Rock's standup comedy.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

No.

They "can't" at all.
Goes against reason and common sense.

See 2 Corinthians: "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"

Also, Chris Rock's standup comedy.

No as in can't try to convert to marry, or marry without converting?

 

[Buckethead]

No as in can't try to convert to marry, or marry without converting?

Can't marry without converting.
I mean they 'can' but would be sin per the Bible and have consequences.

It sounds extreme but I wouldn't advise a non-Christian to date a Christian.
You're connecting yourself with another person who doesn't share your beliefs or values, it is unwise and will end up in dysfunction and hurt.

Several of my friends "converted" their wives but a majority of them was adjusting their lifestyle from "American Christianity" to the Christianity of the Bible.

 

[Jackson]

Can't marry without converting.
I mean they 'can' but would be sin per the Bible and have consequences.

There is no biblical consequences for marrying a non-Christian because God doesn't punish us for our sins. Jesus doesn't sit there and cast a curse on you for sinning, if that was true we'd all probably be dead because we sin daily, whether we are Christian or not.

However, from a simply practical point of view (which is what Paul was mainly talking about) you might have lots of fights with your partner regarding how to raise your child, how you spend your free time or what you two think is morally correct. Basically it's not very smart to marry someone you're not compatible with.

 

[Buckethead]

There is no biblical consequences for marrying a non-Christian because God doesn't punish us for our sins.

That's a nice opinion but unfortunately not one found in the Bible.

 

[Jackson]

That's a nice opinion but unfortunately not one found in the Bible.

Please enlighten me. Faith not works, friend. Bibically speaking only way to Hell is lack of belief in Christ's atonement. Jesus died for your sins so you don't have to atone for them anymore. God doesn't give you cancer cause you've been a bad boy.

I recall reading Jesus healing the sick and casting out demons, teach humans how to live a truly fruitful life both individually and communally, how to have a deep relationship with their Creator and mostly importantly atoning for our sins. I think I missed the part where he said cause you married a non-Christian I'm going to smite you good!

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Several of my friends "converted" their wives but a majority of them was adjusting their lifestyle from "American Christianity" to the Christianity of the Bible.

What are the differences

 

[Pollux]

What are the differences

"American Christians" depending on the denomination basically just pick and choose which beliefs they want to follow.

Then you get into evangelicals, mega-church goers, Protestants (Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, etc.), Baptists, and Roman Catholics to name a few.

It's confusing to be honest.

 

[Jackson]

"American Christians" depending on the denomination basically just pick and choose which beliefs they want to follow.

Then you get into evangelicals, mega-church goers, Protestants (Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, etc.), Baptists, and Roman Catholics to name a few.

It's confusing to be honest.

It's just culture. Jesus's words have been the same for 2,000 years. Humans just decide how to interpret it -- usually from a culturally closed minded and uneducated standpoint. Don't confuse God's word with human agenda.

 

[KodMoS]

Question about marriage.

Can a Christian marry a non-Christian without the obligation of having to convert them?

The scriptures says to marry only in the lord. A Christian has to marry a fellow believer.

 

[Pollux]

It's just culture. Jesus's words have been the same for 2,000 years. Humans just decide how to interpret it -- usually from a culturally closed minded and uneducated standpoint. Don't confuse God's word with human agenda.

You misunderstood what I was saying..."American Christian" has so many different meanings that in order to define it, it has to be taken in context.

I agree with you man, I'm just trying to answer the question.

 

[Jackson]

You misunderstood what I was saying..."American Christian" has so many different meanings that in order to define it, it has to be taken in context.

I agree with you man, I'm just trying to answer the question.

Oh. OK. I thought you were like "lulz Bible is dumb look at the 38,000 different sects as proof!" To which I wanted to refute that the Jesus's teachings never changed, just what people think the Bible says has.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

The scriptures says to marry only in the lord. A Christian has to marry a fellow believer.

What does this mean? What happens if you don't? Do you lose your salvation and go to Hell? Does God hate you now? Does God hate you more or less than someone who has commited a "bigger" sin like murder? Does God punish you? Does He kill the first born in your "unholy union" to show you He's boss? What does it mean that you have to marry a fellow believer from God's perspective?

 

[Buckethead]

Please enlighten me. Faith not works, friend. Bibically speaking only way to Hell is lack of belief in Christ's atonement. Jesus died for your sins so you don't have to atone for them anymore.

The Bible teaches both faith and deeds. The two working in unison.

And "Once saved, always saved" is a false doctrine of teaching.

For starters:
Romans 6:1-2 - What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!
Hebrews 10:26 - If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

Study out the concepts of grace, mercy, and forgiveness.

Charis, eleos, aphemi - having God's favor, being given mercy from God, and a response in line with these facts by leaving one's sin.

However, from a simply practical point of view (which is what Paul was mainly talking about) you might have lots of fights with your partner regarding how to raise your child, how you spend your free time or what you two think is morally correct. Basically it's not very smart to marry someone you're not compatible with.

See 2 Corinthians 6:14-17, 2 Corinthians 15:33, 1 Peter 3:1, Hebrews 6:4-10.

The Bible talks about two people becoming one flesh. Oil and water do not mix. Neither do non-Christians and Christians truly living for God.

 

[Buckethead]

What are the differences

There are plenty of differences.

But several people claim to be "Christians" yet do not follow the teachings of Christ. They get drunk, do drugs, have sex, lie, etc.

John 14:23-24:
Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

The teachings of Christ and the Bible are anti-capitalistic, minimization of the importance of money, minimization of self and the ego, importance of community, community oversight, deep relationships, etc.

"American Christianity" has diluted and watered down the Bible's teaching.

 

[Pollux]

Oh. OK. I thought you were like "lulz Bible is dumb look at the 38,000 different sects as proof!" To which I wanted to refute that the Jesus's teachings never changed, just what people think the Bible says has.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

No worries! It all comes back to the Bible, and every teaching you receive can't be taken with blind obedience. Those teachings are HUMAN creations and if they don't jive with the Bible, then there are problems.

I was just naming the different denominations to point out, as I said, that "American Christian" is something of a misnomer since there are so many denominations in America that it is virtually impossible to encompass them in one term. Christian would do it, but then you get into those who are casual followers of a particular faith, and then into different sects etc. When debating and discussing faith, or in this context I believe that it would be dogma, there is nothing more important than specificity. When there is confusion in terms that can potentially lead to large misunderstandings.

If we're talking about Mary, I as a Catholic am going to have different beliefs than my mega-church going friend. But it's important to know, for an outsider, that my POV is shaded by my Catholic belief structure and my friend's is shaded by his belief structure.

If that makes any sense, sorry for rambling.

But yes, you are 110% correct, that in the end it all comes back to the Bible.

 

[KodMoS]

What does this mean? What happens if you don't? Do you lose your salvation and go to Hell? Does God hate you now? Does God hate you more or less than someone who has commited a "bigger" sin like murder? Does God punish you? Does He kill the first born in your "unholy union" to show you He's boss? What does it mean that you have to marry a fellow believer from God's perspective?

This is where judgment day comes in. If he sees a reason to do so, then he will not give a Christian everlasting life. The fact still remains, there's no denying that the scripture states to marry ONLY in the lord.

 

[Jackson]

The Bible teaches both faith and deeds. The two working in unison.

And "Once saved, always saved" is a false doctrine of teaching.

For starters:
Romans 6:1-2 - What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!
Hebrews 10:26 - If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

Study out the concepts of grace, mercy, and forgiveness.

Charis, eleos, aphemi - having God's favor, being given mercy from God, and a response in line with these facts by leaving one's sin.


See 2 Corinthians 6:14-17, 2 Corinthians 15:33, 1 Peter 3:1, Hebrews 6:4-10.

The Bible talks about two people becoming one flesh. Oil and water do not mix. Neither do non-Christians and Christians truly living for God.

False doctrine huh?

Romans 3
21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

29 After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. 30 There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.[j] 31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

That seems pretty clear to me.

Also... you haven't responded to my original question. As a Christian does God punish you for your sins on this earth? Does he punish anyone on this earth?

But several people claim to be "Christians" yet do not follow the teachings of Christ. They get drunk, do drugs, have sex, lie, etc.

Are they going to hell because of this? Are you going to heaven because you've never done any of this?

 

[Buckethead]

That seems pretty clear to me.

All that states is that we cannot "earn" salvation or forgiveness. It is a gift given to us, freely from God. But God requires a faithful response, not living in your sin. God hates sin and won't tolerate sin.

James 2:24 - You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

James comments on faith and deeds in James 2:14-26.

Believing that you cannot lose your salvation is like saying you can't be pulled over by the police if the officer lets you out of a ticket. You can't rationalize breaking the law - you must simply follow the law or there will be consequences. Timothy shines light onto the subject in 2 Timothy 4:1-5.

People want a "have it your way" faith but it's simply contrary to the Bible. This isn't Burger King. You can't have it your way. It's God way or the broad way.

As a Christian does God punish you for your sins on this earth?

No.

 

[KodMoS]

False doctrine huh?

Romans 3
21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

29 After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. 30 There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.[j] 31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

That seems pretty clear to me.

Also... you haven't responded to my original question. As a Christian does God punish you for your sins on this earth? Does he punish anyone on this earth?

You need to actually read what it says. It doesn't say anything about once saved always saved. Men from long ago and today are saved based on their faith in the ransom of Jesus Christ. As stated in James faith without works is dead.

Humans cannot simply just have belief in Jesus, they need to exercise that belief by their actions, meaning showing they are Christ-like in their conduct and following God's commands.

We're not talking about just minor sins but serious sins that shows that one is not putting faith in God.

 

[Jackson]

You need to actually read what it says. It doesn't say anything about once saved always saved. Men from long ago and today are saved based on their faith in the ransom of Jesus Christ. As stated in James faith without works is dead.

Humans cannot simply just have belief in Jesus, they need to exercise that belief by their actions, meaning showing they are Christ-like in their conduct and following God's commands.

I need to actually read what it says? I think you do. It literally says multiple times that obeying the law will not get you saved. Unequivocally.

We're not talking about just minor sins but serious sins that shows that one is not putting faith in God.

What's a minor sin? What's a serious sin? Where does it say sins have different levels? Where are these defined in the Bible?

 

[Jackson]

All that states is that we cannot "earn" salvation or forgiveness. It is a gift given to us, freely from God. But God requires a faithful response, not living in your sin. God hates sin and won't tolerate sin.

James 2:24 - You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

James comments on faith and deeds in James 2:14-26.

Believing that you cannot lose your salvation is like saying you can't be pulled over by the police if the officer lets you out of a ticket. You can't rationalize breaking the law - you must simply follow the law or there will be consequences. Timothy shines light onto the subject in 2 Timothy 4:1-5.

People want a "have it your way" faith but it's simply contrary to the Bible. This isn't Burger King. You can't have it your way. It's God way or the broad way.

No.

Mr. Buckethead I have grave news for you. You are still a sinner, even though you are now (presumably) a Christian, your physical mind and body will continue to cause you to sin until the day you die. How then can you atone for this? You cannot! All sin is equal. If you lied, even a white lie. You sinned! If you cursed, exploded in your anger, snuck a peek a girl lustfully. You sinned! Even in your thought life... You sin! You are incapable for stopping yourself from sinning. How, then, are you justified in God's sight? You are not. Hence, Jesus!

Are you better than "American Christians"? Do you sin less then them? Probably... Are you better than some hardcore pastor of a mega church who prays 5 hours a day and never allows himself to be alone with a woman. Probably not. Is he the standard for which we are all judged? Are you? No. Jesus is! All have sinned and all fall short. Your good "works" do not atone for your sins. Faith alone my friend.

 

[Buckethead]

Mr. Buckethead I have grave news for you. You are still a sinner

Indeed I am.

Are you better than "American Christians"?

I am better than no one.

Is he the standard for which we are all judged? Are you? No. Jesus is!

If Jesus is the standard, a man who taught repentance and who said "go now and leave your life of sin" why do you so readily accept sin?

Faith alone my friend.

In direct conflict with the Bible. Like I said, it's a nice opinion.

 

[KodMoS]

I need to actually read what it says? I think you do. It literally says multiple times that obeying the law will not get you saved. Unequivocally. ?

You're missing what he said. He said once saved always saved is a false doctrine. You quoted a scripture that states obeying the law is not required but faith in Jesus Christ is. As he quoted in James, faith without works is dead. The Law in this verse is pretty much talking about the Mosaic Law, which humans are no longer under.

As I stated before, based on the scripture faith without works is dead.

To put it simply, dead faith = no faith.

It's clear that you do you have faith as stated in James.

What's a minor sin? What's a serious sin? Where does it say sins have different levels? Where are these defined in the Bible?

Do I need to quote the scripture where it states drunkards, fornicators ect. will not inherit god's kingdom? Or what about kids who disobey their parents. These are not simply once act of disobedience, this is a life style once chooses to live without repenting.

 

[Jackson]

Indeed I am.


I am better than no one.


If Jesus is the standard, a man who taught repentance and who said "go now and leave your life of sin" why do you so readily accept sin?


In direct conflict with the Bible. Like I said, it's a nice opinion.

I don't readily accept sin at all. Sin causes so much heartache in this word. Sin is awful. God hates sin because it hurts his children and hurts Him! God delights in our joy and does not want sorrow for us. If we didn't have Jesus we'd be totally unworthy since we cannot stop sinning.

I started this whole line of questioning when you said marrying a non-Christian would have Biblical consequences because it's a sin. Implying God smites people for sinning which I took issue with.

So my question is this as a Christian if you marry a non-Christian, then die on your way to your honeymoon in a car accident what happens? Do you go to hell?

How about if you stub your toe in the shower and say "fuck!" hitting your head on the tile, knocking yourself out and then drown to death. Do you go to hell now because you sinned and weren't able to repent for it before death?

How about this scenario... A scared Jesus loving 18 year old girl gets an abortion, due to her bible belt loving family's issues with pre-martial sex. She dies. Does she go to hell?

Or a Christian pastor who has a problem with porn and dies before he can get a handle on it? Does he go to hell? Didn't he love Jesus? If he truly loved Jesus would he have stopped? Is it that black and white?

How about a Christian man who lost his wife to illness and can't take it and commits suicide? Does he go to hell?

Was there a point in your life when you were a Christian yet made stupid decisions? If you died then would you have gone to hell?

We are imperfect, Jesus is perfect. We are meant to strive to be like Jesus, but we cannot. But we still must try. However to say we lose salvation due to sin has caused so much hate and fear of Jesus. If this is true, then we're all going to hell because we all sin daily and probably will die before we can repent.

Your works cannot get you into heaven, that's why God set it up the way He did, so we don't have to atone.

 

[Jackson]

Do I need to quote the scripture where it states drunkards, fornicators ect. will not inherit god's kingdom? Or what about kids who disobey their parents. These are not simply once act of disobedience, this is a life style once chooses to live without repenting.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In regards to salvation... (which is all I'm really concerned about in this debate's context) all sin is equal.

 

[KodMoS]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In regards to salvation... (which is all I'm really concerned about in this debate's context) all sin is equal.

No,not equal. Tell me, if all sins were equal, why did God have people killed as recorded in the scriptures? Why does it state that fornicators ect. will not inherit God's kingdom? If all sins are equal, why are people going to be sent into the "lake of fire" for removing the words of the prophecy (as recorded in the book of revelation).

 

[Jackson]

No,not equal. Tell me, if all sins were equal, why did God have people killed as recorded in the scriptures? Why does it state that fornicators ect. will not inherit God's kingdom? If all sins are equal, why are people going to be sent into the "lake of fire" for removing the words of the prophecy (as recorded in the book of revelation).

Again though it is through faith. Let's look at your quoted verse.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Here Paul is saying... Sin is evil and will cause you to go to Hell. First he says all sinners will go to Hell, then he lists some of those sins. However, Jesus made you right by your belief in Him! You were cleansed simply by calling on Jesus's name and nothing more! You didn't "stop sinning" first, you simply asked for help through belief in Jesus's atonement.

 

[KodMoS]

Again though it is through faith. Let's look at your quoted verse.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.[/B]

Here Paul is saying... Sin is evil and will cause you to go to Hell. However, Jesus made you right by your belief in Him! You were cleansed simply by calling on Jesus's name and nothing more! You didn't "stop sinning", you simply asked for help through belief in Jesus's atonement.

That's totally false.

Read it again, it say's thats what they were. This mean's they repented from their former life course.

It doesn't say you are all fornicators, adulterers ect and are washed clean. That's what you want to believe but that's not what it says. Fact of the matter is, the scriptures show us that we must repent from these serious sins. Being a fornicator is more serious than saying a simple bad word. So is committing the unforgivable sin is more serious than being a fornicator.

Like I said before, why did god have people killed because they have sinned?

 

[Jackson]

That's totally false.

Read it again, it say's thats what they were. This mean's they repented from their former life course.

Well of course you have to repent! Acknowledging your sin is literally part of your salvation process.

So is committing the unforgivable sin

Just so we're on the same page here, what do you describe the "unforgivable sin" as?

 

[KodMoS]

Well of course you have to repent! Acknowledging your sin is literally part of salvation.


Just so we're on the same page here, what do you think the "unforgivable sin" is?

Before I even continue, you have to answer my question which I asked several times already. Why did god have people killed if sins were equal?

 

[Jackson]

Before I even continue, you have to answer my question which I asked several times already. Why did god have people killed if sins were equal?

In the OT? Or NT? If it's OT... God killed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah except for Lot and his family. If you want to go more broad than that, God killed everyone in the world but Noah and his family. Surely not everyone in those towns, or the world were murderers and adulterers. Surely some had to have committed lesser sins than others.

 

[KodMoS]

In the OT? Or NT? If it's OT... God killed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah except for Lot and his family. If you want to go more broad than that, God killed everyone in the world but Noah and his family. Surely not everyone in those towns, or the world were murderers and adulterers. Surely some had to have committed lesser sins than others.

I asked why did he do it. This is in the OT and in the NT. Golden calf, David's family? List goes on.

 

[Jackson]

I asked why did he do it. This is in the OT and in the NT. Golden calf, David's family? List goes on.

Well in the OT it was due to defiantly going against God, usually through disobeying the law of Moses.

The only recorded people to die directly by God in the NT were Ananias, Sapphira and Herod as Luke describes in Acts. Again through sinning against God.

 

[KodMoS]

Well in the OT it was due to defiantly going against God, usually through disobeying the law of Moses.

The only recorded people to die directly by God in the NT were Ananias, Sapphira and Herod as Luke describes in Acts. Again through sinning against God.

But again, you said all sins were equal.

 

[Jackson]

But again, you said all sins were equal.

Hence he destroyed the world in the flood of Noah! Killing someone is not the same as them going to hell.

All sins are equal because sin stops us from going to Heaven, period. Jesus died for our sins, not some of our sins or the big sins, but all sins.

Anyway it's late, Buckethead left long ago! We can just agree to disagree.