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Christianity |OT| The official thread of hope, faith and infinite love.

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KodMoS

Banned
Hence he destroyed the world in the flood of Noah! :) Killing someone is not the same as them going to hell.

All sins are equal because sin stops us from going to Heaven, period. Jesus died for our sins, not some of our sins or the big sins, but all sins.

Anyway it's late, Buckethead left long ago! We can just agree to disagree. :)

Now you agree there is a different level of sins?

What's a minor sin? What's a serious sin? Where does it say sins have different levels? Where are these defined in the Bible?

Pretty much contradicted yourself.
 

Chaplain

Member
Ephesians 1 - God’s Ultimate Plan

Our heart’s desire will only be truly fulfilled in Jesus!
God loved us and chose each of us before he made the world.
Freewill vs. Election
Who does God predestine?
We are adopted in to God's family.
Why does God adopted us?
We are accepted by God because we’re in Christ.
The doctrine of redemption.
Everything in life is about Christ and for Christ.
Remembering that we are the clay and God is the Potter.
When we believe in Christ, God identifies us as his own by giving us the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is God's down payment.
 

Fedos

Member
There is no biblical consequences for marrying a non-Christian because God doesn't punish us for our sins. Jesus doesn't sit there and cast a curse on you for sinning, if that was true we'd all probably be dead because we sin daily, whether we are Christian or not.

Actually, he does:

' For those whom the Lord loves he disciplines,
and he scourges every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had [a]earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.' Hebrews 12: 6-13. That's one of the ways that you can know if you are Christian or not, by whether or not God disciplines you when you sin.



You're missing what he said. He said once saved always saved is a false doctrine. You quoted a scripture that states obeying the law is not required but faith in Jesus Christ is. As he quoted in James, faith without works is dead. The Law in this verse is pretty much talking about the Mosaic Law, which humans are no longer under.

As I stated before, based on the scripture faith without works is dead.

To put it simply, dead faith = no faith.

It's clear that you do you have faith as stated in James.



Do I need to quote the scripture where it states drunkards, fornicators ect. will not inherit god's kingdom? Or what about kids who disobey their parents. These are not simply once act of disobedience, this is a life style once chooses to live without repenting.


I have been saved for going on almost ten years and I am learning and leaning more and more towards the Calvinist doctrine. For one thing, there is this passage in 1 John 2: 19: 'They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.' This is teaching the doctrine of the perserverance of the saints, that God knows those who are his and they will ultimately persevere until the end, under varying adverse circumstances. The Puritians wholeheartedly espoused this doctrine and I have been reading their works over the past few months.
 

legend166

Member
The idea that God does not discipline us on earth for our sins doesn't seem to fit into Biblical doctrine for me. The New Testament writers mention it too often, as Fedos just showed.

As for marrying non-Christians, I think the answer lies between what Jackson is saying and what others are saying. I think it's the wrong thing to do. I'm not exactly sure why a Christian would want to marry a non-Christian in the first place. Believers are warned against doing it.

But as Jackson mentioned, we all still sin. I know I do. Someone may do it - that doesn't mean they aren't a Christian. It means they've made a mistake.

At the same time though Jackson, (and this may just be how it's coming across in text, not what you actually believe), what you're saying does sound like a flippant attitude towards sin. We should all be striving to be Christlike and constantly be undergoing sanctification. Where we can help it, we shouldn't sin. Of course it's impossible to be entirely sinless, and we are not saved by our works, but we don't have free reign to sin and just think "Oh well, our works don't matter."

I feel like such a hypocrite writing this though, considering how much I sin. But it is what it is.

One could say the discipline from God for that could be the lifetime of conflict that is sure to follow when a believer marries a non-believer.

On a completely different note, my church has now been added to Sermon Audio: http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sydneyreformed
 

KodMoS

Banned
Actually, he does:

' For those whom the Lord loves he disciplines,
and he scourges every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had [a]earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.' Hebrews 12: 6-13. That's one of the ways that you can know if you are Christian or not, by whether or not God disciplines you when you sin.






I have been saved for going on almost ten years and I am learning and leaning more and more towards the Calvinist doctrine. For one thing, there is this passage in 1 John 2: 19: 'They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.' This is teaching the doctrine of the perserverance of the saints, that God knows those who are his and they will ultimately persevere until the end, under varying adverse circumstances. The Puritians wholeheartedly espoused this doctrine and I have been reading their works over the past few months.


The thing about this entire doctrine is that it's goes beyond what's written in the scriptures. If this were the case, then the Bible commandments would be pointless. The scripture also speaks of the names being blotted out of the book of life. Those who think they're finished after they "give their life to Christ' are fooling themselves.


Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
 

Chaplain

Member
For those who are interested, in less than two hours my church will be webcasting their Sunday morning services. I assume the message will be centered on this new year.

Happy New Year!

Sunday Morning, January 1st, 2012 — 7:30, 9:30 am & 12:00 pm PST
A special message, by Pastor Xavier Ries

Watch Live Webcast Now (requires Quicktime).
 

Fedos

Member
The thing about this entire doctrine is that it's goes beyond what's written in the scriptures. If this were the case, then the Bible commandments would be pointless.

The scripture also speaks of the names being blotted out of the book of life. Those who think they're finished after they "give their life to Christ' are fooling themselves.

The book of life is different from the Lamb's book of life. Everyone who was ever born on earth name is written in the book of life, and when you continually live in and practice sin and reject God then he blots your name out of that book. The Lamb's book of life is reserved for those who trust in and follow Christ. The book of life was mentioned as far back as Moses.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Well consider this resource:
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/security_believer.html
He even references this verse:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left."57 Again, we must ask the question whether this verse is talking about a believer or a non-believer. The first big hint is that the verse is about people who "deliberately keep on sinning." This does not describe the typical behavior of a believer. Yes, believers sin, but do not live in a state of continual sin. In addition, verse 27 describes these people as "enemies of God," which definitely does not describe believers, who are children of God. These people are described as having "received the knowledge of the truth" of the gospel. However, it does not say that they ever accept the truth and put into effect in their own lives. Hundreds of atheists have written me at this site and have "received the knowledge of the truth," although very few have actually become Christians. Here, the author is suggesting that if a person receives the knowledge of the truth of the gospel, but rejects it and keeps on sinning, he is lost and cannot be saved, since he has rejected Jesus' sacrifice for sins."

I grew up in Pentacostal cicles and only recently began reading Puritan works and am finding them to be a treasure trove of Christian knowledge.
 

JGS

Banned
The book of life is different from the Lamb's book of life. Everyone who was ever born on earth name is written in the book of life, and when you continually live in and practice sin and reject God then he blots your name out of that book. The Lamb's book of life is reserved for those who trust in and follow Christ. The book of life was mentioned as far back as Moses.



Well consider this resource:
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/security_believer.html
He even references this verse:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left."57 Again, we must ask the question whether this verse is talking about a believer or a non-believer. The first big hint is that the verse is about people who "deliberately keep on sinning." This does not describe the typical behavior of a believer. Yes, believers sin, but do not live in a state of continual sin. In addition, verse 27 describes these people as "enemies of God," which definitely does not describe believers, who are children of God. These people are described as having "received the knowledge of the truth" of the gospel. However, it does not say that they ever accept the truth and put into effect in their own lives. Hundreds of atheists have written me at this site and have "received the knowledge of the truth," although very few have actually become Christians. Here, the author is suggesting that if a person receives the knowledge of the truth of the gospel, but rejects it and keeps on sinning, he is lost and cannot be saved, since he has rejected Jesus' sacrifice for sins."

I grew up in Pentacostal cicles and only recently began reading Puritan works and am finding them to be a treasure trove of Christian knowledge.
Those verses are talking about believers. The verse specifically states it's a the continual sinning is AFTER accurate knowledge is gained. 27 seems to suggest that this affects them for the worse because they aware of their condemnation. Those verse are discussing a reason for making sure believers stay together for encourage in 24 & 25.

Paul is almost always writing specifically to believers and his recommendations are assuming that believers are the ones who received the letter.
 

Fedos

Member
Those verses are talking about believers. The verse specifically states it's a the continual sinning is AFTER accurate knowledge is gained. 27 seems to suggest that this affects them for the worse because they aware of their condemnation. Those verse are discussing a reason for making sure believers stay together for encourage in 24 & 25.

Paul is almost always writing specifically to believers and his recommendations are assuming that believers are the ones who received the letter.

How would you then reconcile in the same book of Hebrews where it is stated here: 'Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.' Hebrews 13: 5. Or scriptures like this:

'My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.' St. John 10: 27-29.

I believe if you are really Christian and if you fall away (for any reason) from the faith then God will eventually bring you back into the fold. And even if you do fall away or fall into sin, it was God who allowed it to happen because the Holy Spirit is the one that keeps you and sustains you in the first place.

Notwithstanding this verse: '1 John 2: 19: 'They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.' Meaning that they were never really Christians.
 

Chaplain

Member
How would you then reconcile in the same book of Hebrews where it is stated here: 'Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.' Hebrews 13: 5.

Again, all of the writings in the New Testament, except for the Gospels, are written to specifically to believers to grow in Christ and to learn sound doctrine (so we are not deceived).

God will never leave or forsake us, but we can walk away from God if we do not want to be with him. That is why the writer of the book of Hebrews says what he does. The book is written to God's children (unsaved people are Satan's children).

'My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

We do follow Jesus. But to say Christians cannot be deceived, when over and over again the Apostles warn to not be deceived, flies in the face of what the Apostles wrote.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.' St. John 10: 27-29.

Jesus is 100% right. No one can pluck us out of God's hand. But we can leave God's hand and go back to walking with the world and Satan if we desire. Here is an example of such a warning:

Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. or the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world. And this world is fading away, along with everything that people crave. But anyone who does what pleases God will live forever.

John is talking to Christians. Unbelievers already love the things that God hates. John is warning believers not to get sucked back into worldy things that lead to sin and break our fellowship with God.

I believe if you are really Christian and if you fall away (for any reason) from the faith then God will eventually bring you back into the fold.

I agree.

And even if you do fall away or fall into sin, it was God who allowed it to happen because the Holy Spirit is the one that keeps you and sustains you in the first place.

God will not force anyone to follow him. That is why Jesus said we, Christians, must daily pick up our crosses and follow him. It is something we chose to do so every day.

Knowing that, God warns believers when they are about walk back into sin. The Holy Spirit will convict once they are slaves to sin again.

When we sin, we do so because we want to sin. God does not force anyone to sin.

And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death. James 1

James is writing to Christians and not nonbelievers. Nonbelievers do not need to be warned about sinning because they are slaves to sin, sin because they love to sin and are already lost.
 

Fedos

Member
Again, all of the writings in the New Testament, except for the Gospels, are written to specifically to believers to grow in Christ and to learn sound doctrine (so we are not deceived).

I think you could make the case that everything in the Bible is either referring to the saints, sinners, or Israel. At least I've heard this mentioned before.
God will never leave or forsake us, but we can walk away from God if we do not want to be with him. That is why the writer of the book of Hebrews says what he does. The book is written to God's children (unsaved people are Satan's children).


We do follow Jesus. But to say Christians cannot be deceived, when over and over again the Apostles warn to not be deceived, flies in the face of what the Apostles wrote.

I don't doubt that a Christian can be deceived. I myself have suffered under deceptions from Satan, and am still suffering under sins that I committed a long time ago.



Jesus is 100% right. No one can pluck us out of God's hand. But we can leave God's hand and go back to walking with the world and Satan if we desire. Here is an example of such a warning:

Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. or the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world. And this world is fading away, along with everything that people crave. But anyone who does what pleases God will live forever.

Yes this is talking about Christians.

John is talking to Christians. Unbelievers already love the things that God hates. John is warning believers not to get sucked back into worldy things that lead to sin and break our fellowship with God.

Your fellowship can be broken, true (my father backslid once and came back to God) but I am doubting whether your sonship can be revoked.


If you agree with that then what is the point of contention?



God will not force anyone to follow him. That is why Jesus said we, Christians, must daily pick up our crosses and follow him. It is something we chose to do so every day.

Knowing that, God warns believers when they are about walk back into sin. The Holy Spirit will convict once they are slaves to sin again.

When we sin, we do so because we want to sin. God does not force anyone to sin.

And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death. James 1

James is writing to Christians and not nonbelievers. Nonbelievers do not need to be warned about sinning because they are slaves to sin, sin because they love to sin and are already lost.

Well if we go back into practicing sin and remain doing so, say God's patience with us runs out, can't God just call us home or put us on the shelf? And John says this in 1st John:

'And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.' 1 John 2: 28. Doesn't that imply that if you fall into sin (for any reason) that you won't lose your salvation but that you'll instead be ashamed at the rapture of the church, for practicing sin?
 

Chaplain

Member
I think you could make the case that everything in the Bible is either referring to the saints, sinners, or Israel. At least I've heard this mentioned before.

Each book, from Romans to Revelations, is addressed to saved believers.

I don't doubt that a Christian can be deceived. I myself have suffered under deceptions from Satan, and am still suffering under sins that I committed a long time ago.

Paul writes that some Christians, in the last days, will walk away from Jesus and be deceived.

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. - 1 Timothy 4

"For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. They will reject the truth and chase after myths." - 2 Timothy 4

IYour fellowship can be broken, true (my father backslid once and came back to God) but I am doubting whether your sonship can be revoked.

That is a gamble with ones soul. Paul clearly says that if Christians go back into sin, like in Galations 5, 1 Corinthians 6 and Ephesians 5, they will not inherit the kingdom of GOd.

There is nothing to worry about if we are walking with the Lord. Those warnings are there for Christians who have one foot in the world and one foot in the kingdom of heaven. As James wrote to believers:

You adulterers! Don’t you realize that friendship with the world makes you an enemy of God? I say it again: If you want to be a friend of the world, you make yourself an enemy of God. - James 4

Well if we go back into practicing sin and remain doing so, say God's patience with us runs out, can't God just call us home or put us on the shelf?

I think God does do this. But I wouldn't want to be taken home because of this. Would you?

And John says this in 1st John:

'And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.' 1 John 2:28.

Doesn't that imply that if you fall into sin (for any reason) that you won't lose your salvation but that you'll instead be ashamed at the rapture of the church, for practicing sin?

Here is a Biblical commentary on the verse you shared.

a. Abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed: Abiding in Jesus means that we need not be afraid or ashamed when Jesus returns. This is because we have intimately known Him, and therefore we can have confidence at His coming.

i. John brings up a challenging image. When Jesus returns, some people will be afraid, because they never knew Jesus at all. But among those who know Him, some will not be afraid, they will be ashamed before Him at His coming. They will realize that they have been living worldly, unfruitful lives. In one moment, the understanding will overwhelm them that whatever else they accomplished in life, they did not abide in Him as they could have.

ii. Paul the Apostle speaks of those who are “barely saved”: he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire (1 Corinthians 3:15). There are those who, for at least a moment, the coming of Jesus will be a moment of disappointment rather than glory.

iii. It is important for us to carefully consider these matters, because it is difficult to measure the distance between “barely saved” and “almost saved.” It is dangerous to contemplate questions such as, “how little can I do and still make it to heaven?” or “how far can I stray from the Shepherd and still be part of the flock?” Instead we should be diligent to not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

iv. “What is the way to prepare for Christ’s coming? By the study of the prophecies? Yes, if you are sufficiently instructed to be able to understand them. ‘To be prepared for the Lord’s coming,’ some enthusiasts might say, ‘had I not better spend a month in retirement, and get out of this wicked world?’ You may, if you like; and especially you will do so if you are lazy. But the one Scriptural prescription for preparing for his coming is this, ‘Abide in him.’ If you abide in the faith of him, holding his truth, following his example, and making him your dwelling-place, your Lord may come at any hour, and you will welcome him.” (Spurgeon)

b. When He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed: We never grow beyond our need to abide and find our confidence in abiding in Jesus. Because John used "we" instead of "you," we know that he needed this confidence also.

c. Abide in Him: This is the way to be confident when Jesus comes. When you abide in Him, you are ready for Jesus to come at any time.

i. The idea of living in Jesus is so important in the Bible. Jesus promised in John 14:23: If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

ii. Paul expressed this idea in his prayer for the Ephesians in Ephesians 3:17: that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. There are two Greek words to convey the idea of “to live in”; one has the idea of living in a place as a stranger, and the other has the idea of settling down in a place to make it your permanent home. Dwell in Ephesians 3:17 uses the Greek word for a permanent home; Jesus wants to settle down in your heart, not just visit as a stranger.

iii. Do you abide in Him? Or do you just visit Jesus every once in a while? Abiding in Jesus gives us confidence, because we know we wouldn’t change our lives substantially if we somehow knew Jesus would come back next week. We would already be abiding in Him.

Please pray about what you read and tell me what you think.
 

Fedos

Member
Paul writes that Christians, in the last days, will walk away from Jesus and be deceived.

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. - 1 Timothy 4

"For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. They will reject the truth and chase after myths." - 2 Timothy 4

Yes no doubt this is certainly true and you can see it already happening with the Emerging Church. But some of the things they practice makes me wonder if they were really Christian to begin with.



That is a gamble with ones soul. Paul clearly says that if Christians go back into sin, like in Galations 5, 1 Corinthians 6 and Ephesians 5, they will not inherit the kingdom of GOd.

Well, as I said in the instant message, God has sufficiently made me afraid of breaking his laws, so I don't want to sin anyway.




I think God does do this. But I wouldn't want to be taken home because of this. Would you?

No, I wouldn't.


Here is a Biblical commentary on the verse you shared.



Please pray about what you read and tell me what you think.

Well, I am certainly not as close to God as I could be. I HAVE been seeking him more and more over the years (buying books on theology, spending more time in the word), but I am living a holy life.
 

KodMoS

Banned
The book of life is different from the Lamb's book of life. Everyone who was ever born on earth name is written in the book of life, and when you continually live in and practice sin and reject God then he blots your name out of that book. The Lamb's book of life is reserved for those who trust in and follow Christ. The book of life was mentioned as far back as Moses.

Malachi 3:16
Then those who feared the LORD talked with each other, and the LORD listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the LORD and honored his name.

The book is made up of those fearing him. This is not simply a book of everyone who has lived.


Well consider this resource:
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/security_believer.html
He even references this verse:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left."57 Again, we must ask the question whether this verse is talking about a believer or a non-believer. The first big hint is that the verse is about people who "deliberately keep on sinning." This does not describe the typical behavior of a believer. Yes, believers sin, but do not live in a state of continual sin. In addition, verse 27 describes these people as "enemies of God," which definitely does not describe believers, who are children of God. These people are described as having "received the knowledge of the truth" of the gospel. However, it does not say that they ever accept the truth and put into effect in their own lives. Hundreds of atheists have written me at this site and have "received the knowledge of the truth," although very few have actually become Christians. Here, the author is suggesting that if a person receives the knowledge of the truth of the gospel, but rejects it and keeps on sinning, he is lost and cannot be saved, since he has rejected Jesus' sacrifice for sins."

I grew up in Pentacostal cicles and only recently began reading Puritan works and am finding them to be a treasure trove of Christian knowledge.

The problem with this reference is that it does speak of those who believed. This speaks of anyone who received the knowledge of truth. A believer can become a no believer, and he is not forced to believe anything. God doesn't make the decision for us, it's our own decision.

This is common sense. Deliberately meaning they have no repentant attitude towards what they're doing. No one is automatically forgiven, you have to ask for it first.

The scriptures speak of Satan being Good and in the truth. He turned bad. In genesis, he spoke of all things being good, which included Satan and the angels who rebelled. The fact of the matter is, people change, and people who Deliberately sinned are not saved, especially those who have been baptized in Christ.
 

JGS

Banned
How would you then reconcile in the same book of Hebrews where it is stated here: 'Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.' Hebrews 13: 5. Or scriptures like this:

'My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.' St. John 10: 27-29.

I believe if you are really Christian and if you fall away (for any reason) from the faith then God will eventually bring you back into the fold. And even if you do fall away or fall into sin, it was God who allowed it to happen because the Holy Spirit is the one that keeps you and sustains you in the first place.

Notwithstanding this verse: '1 John 2: 19: 'They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.' Meaning that they were never really Christians.
On the iPhone so can't type much but not see a need for reconciliation on those verses.
 

Chaplain

Member
Ephesians 1 - God’s Ultimate Plan

Verses 15-23

Praying for those who are walking with the Lord.
How often should we pray?
All wisdom and revelation is found only in Jesus.
Praying for the root of the problem.
Why carnal Christians are depressed and discouraged.
Why is there evil in the world?
Remembering the power in us.
Why we go back into slavery.
God has put all things under the authority of Christ.
The church is Jesus' body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.


Ephesians 2 - God’s Way of Reconciliation

Verses 1 - 3

There are three types of Death.
Who is the god of Earth?
Everyone is a slave to sin until we are born again.
Before we were born again we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
 

Chaplain

Member
Ephesians 2 - God’s Way of Reconciliation

Verses 4 - 22

God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.
God raised us from the dead.
God saves us by his grace and even gives us our faith.
We are God's living poem.
Before God saved us, we lived in this world without God and without hope.
Christ has brought us peace and united the Jews and Gentiles (that's us) into one people.
We are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple.
 

Fedos

Member
I never see anyone here talking about christian music, odd.
Anyway, i came across this song by matt redman a few days ago and its been stuck in my head ever since. Been playing it on guitar for myself too. Beautiful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=9jYLTn4fKYQ

What songs have you been listening to? :p

The link in your post doesn't work. I listen to African American Gospel, songs like Ricky Dillard's "If We Faint Not," James Hall's "No Joy No Strength," and Hezekiah Walker's "Lift Him Up," or "Lord Do It."
 

Emwitus

Member
The link in your post doesn't work. I listen to African American Gospel, songs like Ricky Dillard's "If We Faint Not," James Hall's "No Joy No Strength," and Hezekiah Walker's "Lift Him Up," or "Lord Do It."

Are you sure? Will check. I listen to all types of christian music from old hymn/folk to urban pop contemporary. I love walker. Have you heard "bread of life". In regards to other african american music, check out MALI MUSIC. He's relatively unknown, but his music will carry you away :)

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ryop64-c_M&feature=related

Beautiful.
 

HeySeuss

Member
How does the bible remedy people in isolated parts of the world that may never come in contact with anyone who would teach them about Christianity?

Seems pretty dark of an omnipotent god to intentionally let someone live their entire life knowing that they have zero chance of learning about Jesus and just sitting idly by as they are sent to hell.
 

JGS

Banned
How does the bible remedy people in isolated parts of the world that may never come in contact with anyone who would teach them about Christianity?
1. There are very few remnants of the planet that have not had Christians visiting
2. Spreading Christianity is not the same thing as judgement work.
Seems pretty dark of an omnipotent god to intentionally let someone live their entire life knowing that they have zero chance of learning about Jesus and just sitting idly by as they are sent to hell.
3. Christian or not, the only reason there is salvation at all is grace from God. So if someone doesn't know about God, it's pretty presumptuous to assume God will kill them for that.
4. In any event, it's not our place to know who will or won't gain salvation
 

HeySeuss

Member
1. There are very few remnants of the planet that have not had Christians visiting
2. Spreading Christianity is not the same thing as judgement work.

3. Christian or not, the only reason there is salvation at all is grace from God. So if someone doesn't know about God, it's pretty presumptuous to assume God will kill them for that.
4. In any event, it's not our place to know who will or won't gain salvation
While I agree that there are few corners of the earth that people remain secluded from the rest of the world, they do still exist. And for an all knowing loving god, even one soul left behind without learning of the way to reach heaven would be too many. Think of all the people in the last 2000 years that lived their entire life without knowing about Jesus, and therefore never had a chance to become saved. Native Americans, mayans, south Americans,etc.

And unless these people live forever, its not presumptuous because all people are born with sin, and the penalty for sin is death. So we know they will die.

And you say its not your place to know who will or will not be saved? Isn't that the cornerstone of Christianity? "There is no way to the father but through me". Christianity dictates who will or will not be saved by the nature of the religion.

All I'm saying is that its really disturbing to think of all the people who have lived on this planet since the crucifixion who never even had the opportunity to become saved, and by proxy have been condemned to eternal damnation for something they never even had the chance to believe in in the first place. And for a god that knows all of the events that have happened and will ever happen, to just look at those people and say, "well thems the breaks", just really doesn't sit well with me.
 

Pollux

Member
While I agree that there are few corners of the earth that people remain secluded from the rest of the world, they do still exist. And for an all knowing loving god, even one soul left behind without learning of the way to reach heaven would be too many. Think of all the people in the last 2000 years that lived their entire life without knowing about Jesus, and therefore never had a chance to become saved. Native Americans, mayans, south Americans,etc.

And unless these people live forever, its not presumptuous because all people are born with sin, and the penalty for sin is death. So we know they will die.

And you say its not your place to know who will or will not be saved? Isn't that the cornerstone of Christianity?

I would assume that they would be judged the same way those who died before Jesus came along were judged by Christ when he descended into Hell after the Crucifixion.


And you say its not your place to know who will or will not be saved? Isn't that the cornerstone of Christianity?

No, WE don't know who will be saved. We can only do our best to follow the teachings set before us. We can't pass judgement on anyone.
 

JGS

Banned
While I agree that there are few corners of the earth that people remain secluded from the rest of the world, they do still exist. And for an all knowing loving god, even one soul left behind without learning of the way to reach heaven would be too many. Think of all the people in the last 2000 years that lived their entire life without knowing about Jesus, and therefore never had a chance to become saved. Native Americans, mayans, south Americans,etc.

And unless these people live forever, its not presumptuous because all people are born with sin, and the penalty for sin is death. So we know they will die.
I gave you an answer and then you repeated the flaw. So I'll ask a question: If someone doesn't know God, why do you think God would punish them for that?

And you say its not your place to know who will or will not be saved? Isn't that the cornerstone of Christianity? "There is no way to the father but through me". Christianity dictates who will or will not be saved by the nature of the religion.
That is a cornerstone of Christianity. However, your application of it is not. The verse doesn't mention anything about us knowing who will be saved. Without Jesus, no one gains salvation. That is not the same thing as a requirement to be Christian (Although that would certainly increase the possibility). It's like saying someone can't breathe because they never heard of air.

Now I'm not saying that ones who willfully reject God will gain salvation, nor am I saying that everyone calling themselves Christians will be either. We don't know. However, refusal and ignorance are not the same thing.
All I'm saying is that its really disturbing to think of all the people who have lived on this planet since the crucifixion who never even had the opportunity to become saved, and by proxy have been condemned to eternal damnation for something they never even had the chance to believe in in the first place. And for a god that knows all of the events that have happened and will ever happen, to just look at those people and say, "well thems the breaks", just really doesn't sit well with me.
There's no reason for it to sit well with you. Thank God that's not a Christian teaching.

What would be beneficial is to concern yourself with what you can do to gain salvation which is a Christian cornerstone as well as taking that info and telling others about it.
 

Fedos

Member
How does the bible remedy people in isolated parts of the world that may never come in contact with anyone who would teach them about Christianity?

Seems pretty dark of an omnipotent god to intentionally let someone live their entire life knowing that they have zero chance of learning about Jesus and just sitting idly by as they are sent to hell.

Watch this sermon by Adrian Rogers 'No other way to heaven except through Jesus,' where he explains that those who never hear the Gospel are judged based on general revelation of God and their consciences. You should certainly listen to the whole sermon to get the full explanation. There are five parts to it. Hopefully this answers some of your concerns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lU0Ven7-L4&list=FLwNq7Pa-fuxeo7pPV89CWog&index=2&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbGajQjadmY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGaWIUKxTaw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdcP8NRHFBM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqPNvQH7kg&feature=related
 

Chaplain

Member
Live Sunday morning webcast streaming right now:

Sunday Morning, January 8th, 2012 — 7:30, 9:30 am & 12:00 pm PST
“God’s Role for Children – Part 1,” Ephesians 6:1, by Pastor Xavier Ries

Watch Live Webcast Now (requires Quicktime).
 

Emwitus

Member
While I agree that there are few corners of the earth that people remain secluded from the rest of the world, they do still exist. And for an all knowing loving god, even one soul left behind without learning of the way to reach heaven would be too many. Think of all the people in the last 2000 years that lived their entire life without knowing about Jesus, and therefore never had a chance to become saved. Native Americans, mayans, south Americans,etc.

And unless these people live forever, its not presumptuous because all people are born with sin, and the penalty for sin is death. So we know they will die.

And you say its not your place to know who will or will not be saved? Isn't that the cornerstone of Christianity? "There is no way to the father but through me". Christianity dictates who will or will not be saved by the nature of the religion.

All I'm saying is that its really disturbing to think of all the people who have lived on this planet since the crucifixion who never even had the opportunity to become saved, and by proxy have been condemned to eternal damnation for something they never even had the chance to believe in in the first place. And for a god that knows all of the events that have happened and will ever happen, to just look at those people and say, "well thems the breaks", just really doesn't sit well with me.

You should listen to this song from casting crowns. :) Any fans of casting crowns here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9Kcm2OAWNA
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
How does Christian-GAF feel about Tim Tebow?

I mean, all kidding and cynicism aside. He's doing it right. By all accounts, who he appears to be is who he is.

The only problem is that a misunderstanding of Christianity by the greater public is why people seem to think he's over pious.
 

jl4855

Member
How does Christian-GAF feel about Tim Tebow?

I mean, all kidding and cynicism aside. He's doing it right. By all accounts, who he appears to be is who he is.

The only problem is that a misunderstanding of Christianity by the greater public is why people seem to think he's over pious.

as long as he's doing good work i have no problems with it - his foundation partners with one of my favourite charities (http://cure.org/tebow) so i'm rooting for the guy.
 
How do you all feel mainstream Christianity has moved on from racist biblical scholarship? I am thinking specifically of the stuff about Hajar and Sarah and how it was used to justify slavery and paternalism towards non-White people.

I am thinking partly because the whole 'Saracen' thing lingers (Saracen being a perjorative term meaning 'those who Sarah expelled', meaning Arabs and Africans, but also Muslims) but also because I still see such theological points brought up now and again on racist forums. I have seen similar in historic sources less than 80 years old, and they were pretty mainstream then it seemed.

I wonder if anyone knows how the shift occurred? Have there been any reinterpretations of the story of Hajar ( who was a lone non-white slave, a single mother cast out, yet was presented as almost evil)? What do you understand of Ishmael? (alayhis salaam) whose name means 'God's promise fulfilled/ God has heard'.
 

Chaplain

Member
Live Sunday morning church is about going to start in 7 minutes. Below is the info for the webcast.

Sunday Morning, January 15th, 2012 — 7:30, 9:30 am & 12:00 pm PST
“God’s Role for Children – Part 2,” Ephesians 6:1-3, by Pastor Xavier Ries

Watch Live Webcast Now (requires Quicktime).
 

JGS

Banned
How do you all feel mainstream Christianity has moved on from racist biblical scholarship? I am thinking specifically of the stuff about Hajar and Sarah and how it was used to justify slavery and paternalism towards non-White people.

I am thinking partly because the whole 'Saracen' thing lingers (Saracen being a perjorative term meaning 'those who Sarah expelled', meaning Arabs and Africans, but also Muslims) but also because I still see such theological points brought up now and again on racist forums. I have seen similar in historic sources less than 80 years old, and they were pretty mainstream then it seemed.

I wonder if anyone knows how the shift occurred? Have there been any reinterpretations of the story of Hajar ( who was a lone non-white slave, a single mother cast out, yet was presented as almost evil)? What do you understand of Ishmael? (alayhis salaam) whose name means 'God's promise fulfilled/ God has heard'.
I'm not quite following the whole thing, but the reasons for her being tossed out weren't racial. I don't think there's been a mass view to move away from regarding the account. It was largely about baby mama drama where Sarah had legitimate complaint against Hagar. She may have thought that since her son was born first, he would be the heir although that was contradictory to what God wanted.

Abraham & Sarah weren't white and in all likelihood, Hagar had similar ethnic features. She was thrown out because of the friction in the family and God told Abraham not to worry about her which there was no reason to since he was taken care of by God despite his hard headedness (zebra like).
 
I'm not quite following the whole thing, but the reasons for her being tossed out weren't racial. I don't think there's been a mass view to move away from regarding the account. It was largely about baby mama drama where Sarah had legitimate complaint against Hagar. She may have thought that since her son was born first, he would be the heir although that was contradictory to what God wanted.
I didn't say they were racial, but the story took on a racial character in the Jewish and later Christian commentaries of it. In general, if I am looking at a woman who expels a slave into the desert with her son, or the woman expelled, I know I'm supporting the later, not the former.

Abraham & Sarah weren't white and in all likelihood, Hagar had similar ethnic features. She was thrown out because of the friction in the family and God told Abraham not to worry about her which there was no reason to since he was taken care of by God despite his hard headedness (zebra like).

The commentaries I am talking about disagree. Most commentaries say there is a strong racial element to the story, in that Sarah was viewed as being Jewish, while Hagar was viewed as being Egyptian.
 
Legalising gay marriage was a trending topic on twitter and reading the tweets reminded me of how confused I am about the attitudes towards from a Biblical standpoint. There are two prominent positions, and equally prominent.

1. God loves everyone and doesn't condemn gay marriage in the Bible
2. Gay marriage is condemned in the Bible

Having opinions is one thing but why is what the Bible says in this regard so disputed?
 

JGS

Banned
I didn't say they were racial, but the story took on a racial character in the Jewish and later Christian commentaries of it. In general, if I am looking at a woman who expels a slave into the desert with her son, or the woman expelled, I know I'm supporting the later, not the former.
You support them by default without context? If that's the case, there's not much reason to explain further. However, later commentaries don't seem to illustarte the racial element involved as the account is largely self-explanatory. As a result of the actions of both Hagar & her son, it was not safe for them to dwell together. Because the promised heir was to go through Abraham & Sarah, this meant Hagar had to go rather than to risk harm coming to Isaac &/or Sarah.
The commentaries I am talking about disagree. Most commentaries say there is a strong racial element to the story, in that Sarah was viewed as being Jewish, while Hagar was viewed as being Egyptian.
Although that may be true (Abraham had tons of slaves and they could have come from anywhere), ethnicity was not the driving factor. Otherwise, Sarah wouldn't have wanted Abrahma to hook up with her to begin with. It would be interesting, I guess, to see how commentators could flip the story to a racial one.
 

JGS

Banned
Legalising gay marriage was a trending topic on twitter and reading the tweets reminded me of how confused I am about the attitudes towards from a Biblical standpoint. There are two prominent positions, and equally prominent.

1. God loves everyone and doesn't condemn gay marriage in the Bible
2. Gay marriage is condemned in the Bible

Having opinions is one thing but why is what the Bible says in this regard so disputed?
The Bible doesn't discuss gay marriage because no one discussed gay marriage back then. It wasn't an issue. Something not being condemned doesn't mean it's something sanctioned.

What is condemned is immorality. Since there was no stipulation for gay marriage, all gay sex is likely considered immoral. How severe that sin is remains totally debateable, but I've never seen an "out" for gay marriage in Christianity. This has nothing to do with the fact that they should be allowed to get married from a secular standpoint imo.
 
You support them by default without context? If that's the case, there's not much reason to explain further. However, later commentaries don't seem to illustarte the racial element involved as the account is largely self-explanatory. As a result of the actions of both Hagar & her son, it was not safe for them to dwell together. Because the promised heir was to go through Abraham & Sarah, this meant Hagar had to go rather than to risk harm coming to Isaac &/or Sarah.
It is not without context. The context is given. Why do you say 'as the actions of Hajar and her son'? When it was Sarah who dealt with her harshly?

And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to Abram her husband to be his wife.

And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.

And Sarai said unto Abram: 'My wrong be upon thee: I gave my handmaid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.'

But Abram said unto Sarai: 'Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her that which is good in thine eyes.' And Sarai dealt harshly with her, and she fled from her face.

And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

And he said: 'Hagar, Sarai's handmaid, whence camest thou? and whither goest thou?' And she said: 'I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.'

And the angel of the LORD said unto her: 'Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.'

And the angel of the LORD said unto her: 'I will greatly multiply thy seed, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

And the angel of the LORD said unto her: 'Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son; and thou shalt call his name Ishmael, because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

And he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren.'

Although that may be true (Abraham had tons of slaves and they could have come from anywhere), ethnicity was not the driving factor. Otherwise, Sarah wouldn't have wanted Abrahma to hook up with her to begin with. It would be interesting, I guess, to see how commentators could flip the story to a racial one.
Ethnicity seems the entire focus of the verse above. There is a story of a woman who is taken to Abraham (alayhis salaam) as a slave, then given to him by his wife, who is barren. Then when she comes with child, begins to despise her mistress, which is not shown through actions but seen 'in her eyes'. Then Sarah, when presented with an option of what to do with her slave, casts her out into the desert, alone, with her child.

At which point God sends an angel to save her and her child. Then all of a sudden the narrative switches up into a rant about race and her offspring. Where the 'Lord hath heard of her affliction', yet suddenly responds by decreeing that her son shall be a 'wild ass of a man', something which will be in the face of all of his descendants.

If not viewing this as a later addition by Jewish commentators in light of their circumstances and tribalism, how does a modern Christian interpret verses that seem so racially charged? They were previously, when racism was not such an issue, interpreted in a racist way. When did the shift from this interpretation occur?
 

Emwitus

Member
God loves everyone.....and he is also a just God, slow to anger. But, as Christians, we should also remember he is not mocked. What we sow we reap. We can not live in sin and profess being a Christian....
 
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