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[Zilch]

Thanks brah, I was a Christian for 20+ years, I know how the game works.

This isn't the thread for me so I'll abstain from here on out but I just had to laugh at your/the church's(?) incredibly disingenuous attempt to change the narrative vis a vis "homosexuality is a sin" (and also "God invented marriage so you gays can't call it that!" Uh, no. On so many levels, no).

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

i cant explain why some christians are consumed by a fear/hate of homosexuality. it is no more of a sin than adultery, stealing, lying, greed, and yet it seems to come to the forefront of the discussion more than anything else. i suppose the reason is simply that many in the world do not view homosexuality is wrong, but many (oftentimes religious) do.

It's a visceral issue, a gut thing if you follow me.

It's good for rallying the troops and use christians to attain unrelated political objectives. In essence, both the churches and the politicians are using it to manipulate christians. Ya know the game... you campaign on gay marriage and you privatise prisons. It also makes people oblivious to greed and corruption... meanwhile these same preachers and politicians justify and praise greed.

It saddens me. I am not much of a christian these days but I was raised in a christian environment, both family and school and I know the message of love and hope Jesus preached. What I see these days both from the United States and my own country, well... it is terribly disturbing.

edit: apologies if this post is not ok within the current thread politics and moderation policies, but I read it from time to time and I couldn't stop by to talk about this.

 

[Chaplain]

It's good for rallying the troops and use christians to attain unrelated political objectives. In essence, both the churches and the politicians are using it to manipulate Christians.

This isn't anything new.

"Edward Gibbon in his book The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire described the attitude towards religion in the last days of the Roman Empire - attitudes remarkably like our own today. (1) The people regarded all religions as equally true. (2) The philosophers regarded all religions as equally false. (3) The politicians regarded all religions as equally useful."

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

This isn't anything new.

Nope, but christians still fall for it like if someone came up with this yesterday.

 

[Chaplain]

It saddens me. I am not much of a christian these days but I was raised in a christian environment, both family and school and I know the message of love and hope Jesus preached. What I see these days both from the United States and my own country, well... it is terribly disturbing.

The Bible talks about what you are seeing. It says that the following will occur in the last days right before the Apocalypse.

For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good. They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!

This happening throughout the entire world right now.

 

[speedline]

I grew up going to Pentecostal, Charismatic, even a Holiness Church at one point in my youth back in the 1990's. During high school and afterwards I was an ever increasing agnostic and then atheist. I felt like logic should ditate my life and there was no place for faith in my life anymore. I felt like Jesus was a lie and the Supernatural was a hoax. I felt like Religion was simply used to govern people and extort money by selling a product that didn't exist.

After my mother passed away 8 years ago, pretty much all my faith in God dissappeared and I went into a depression/anxiety spell that still bothers me to this day. As everyone knows depression puts a very heavy burden on you both mentally and physically. I just don't feel happy or healthy.

Anyway, I'm telling you this because about a week or so ago I took a few minutes to pray to God during a time where I felt very down and anxious. I told him that I remembered a time in my life where I felt secure and peaceful about my life and future, and I want that back. I want the peace of God back in my life and need him more than he needs me right now. I don't have a walk with God anymore to share with anyone, I can't lead people to the Lord right now because I don't live a life that would be very pleasing to him at the moment. So I guess my prayers seem somewhat selfish atm.

I don't pretend to know all the teachings or doctorines out there, all I know is that the best times of my life where the times as a young person that I spent following Christ and living by his grace. I am now in my 30's, married with an 11 year old son whom I have never talked with about Jesus Christ. I have not been the spiritual leader of my home like my Mother was to me growing up.

So I am asking for your prayers that God will show me what direction I need to take. I have repented for my sins and plan to spend time in fasting and prayer this weekend and hopefully he will come back into my heart and feel welcomed in my home. I also need him to help me guide my wife to the Lord as I have never mentioned Church to her throughout our 11 year marriage.

Thank you for youe prayers GAF! Maybe Gaf will one day live up to it's creed "Believe"

 

[AgentP]

This happening throughout the entire world right now.

I love it when Christians read some vague nonsense from the bible and apply it to "today", as if it was not applicable for every decade since it was written. How is that end of the world crap working out for you? It was supposed to happen around the time of Christ, more mental gymnastic required?

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

The Bible talks about what you are seeing. It says that the following will occur in the last days right before the Apocalypse.

For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good. They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!

This happening throughout the entire world right now.

I'm not gonna get into a theological argument with you, because I'm sure you can scold me in all things bible related and that's not what I'm here for. I don't intend to ruffle feathers.

But this situation is not new, it's happened before and the Rapture has yet to come. So instead of saying it is the Rapture and do nothing, be good if conscious christians within the communnity got up and refused to be played like that. Because sometimes when I see good christians shield themselves behind the Rapture, I can't avoid to feel they're doing that instead of doing anything to improve their own communnity and rescue some good christians from the hands of the sinners. It feels like a way to justify inaction and... maybe I got it wrong, but Jesus didn't pray inaction as a way of life for christians.

Who knows maybe the Rapture is coming soon, but I don't think we, mere humans can predict that. Only the Lord knows. Whenever it happens, we will know.

 

[Chaplain]

I grew up going to Pentecostal, Charismatic, even a Holiness Church at one point in my youth back in the 1990's. During high school and afterwards I was an ever increasing agnostic and then atheist. I felt like logic should ditate my life and there was no place for faith in my life anymore. I felt like Jesus was a lie and the Supernatural was a hoax. I felt like Religion was simply used to govern people and extort money by selling a product that didn't exist.

After my mother passed away 8 years ago, pretty much all my faith in God dissappeared and I went into a depression/anxiety spell that still bothers me to this day. As everyone knows depression puts a very heavy burden on you both mentally and physically. I just don't feel happy or healthy.

Anyway, I'm telling you this because about a week or so ago I took a few minutes to pray to God during a time where I felt very down and anxious. I told him that I remembered a time in my life where I felt secure and peaceful about my life and future, and I want that back. I want the peace of God back in my life and need him more than he needs me right now. I don't have a walk with God anymore to share with anyone, I can't lead people to the Lord right now because I don't live a life that would be very pleasing to him at the moment. So I guess my prayers seem somewhat selfish atm.

I don't pretend to know all the teachings or doctorines out there, all I know is that the best times of my life where the times as a young person that I spent following Christ and living by his grace. I am now in my 30's, married with an 11 year old son whom I have never talked with about Jesus Christ. I have not been the spiritual leader of my home like my Mother was to me growing up.

So I am asking for your prayers that God will show me what direction I need to take. I have repented for my sins and plan to spend time in fasting and prayer this weekend and hopefully he will come back into my heart and feel welcomed in my home. I also need him to help me guide my wife to the Lord as I have never mentioned Church to her throughout our 11 year marriage.

Thank you for youe prayers GAF! Maybe Gaf will one day live up to it's creed "Believe"

You are being prayed for and I have sent out an email chain to a bunch of churches asking for prayer on your behalf.

I just wanted to remind you about how God treated a son, written about in God's Word, that left Him and then came back.

“So he returned home to his father. And while he was still a long way off, his father saw him coming. Filled with love and compassion, he ran to his son, embraced him, and kissed him. His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against both heaven and you, and I am no longer worthy of being called your son.’

“But his father said to the servants, ‘Quick! Bring the finest robe in the house and put it on him. Get a ring for his finger and sandals for his feet. And kill the calf we have been fattening. We must celebrate with a feast, for this son of mine was dead and has now returned to life. He was lost, but now he is found.’ So the party began. Luke 15

 

[Chaplain]

Because sometimes when I see good christians shield themselves behind the Rapture, I can't avoid to feel they're doing that instead of doing anything to improve their own communnity and rescue some good christians from the hands of the sinners. It feels like a way to justify inaction and... maybe I got it wrong, but Jesus didn't pray inaction as a way of life for christians.

There is a lot of amazing things being done by Christians right now who believe in the Rapture. Here is just one example:

http://www.afterhoursministry.org/

Our Mission

Our mission is to LOVE until the last lock breaks. By finding unique ways of building relationships with the men and women we meet on the streets of Los Angeles involved in street prostitution who are hurting and searching for a God that passionately desires to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes. Isaiah 61.

Our Vision

Our vision is to cultivate a sustainable outreach program designed to reach men (including but not limited to: pimps, johns, male prostitutes, transgender prostitutes) and women involved in prostitution.

Our vision is to multiply ourselves by training and equipping bodies of believers across the nation to minister to men and women in prostitution through trainings, advocacy, awareness and outreaches.

Our vision is to raise public awareness of the issues faced by men and women involved in prostitution.

Our vision is to establish programs that will serve men, women and children at risk and involved in prostitution through physical, emotional and spiritual healing and through economic development.

Our vision is to establish an employment program to provide women involved in prostitution with healthy employment alternatives.

Our vision is to establish a safe house for women at risk because of the sex industry.

Our vision is to provide legal advocacy and support for women and children at risk in the sex industry.

Our vision is to provide counseling and support services for women who are coming out of prostitution.

About the founders of the After Hours Ministry:

The founders of After Hours Ministry are Laurie Ishii and Daryl Bargy.

Laurie went through the BADD (Born Again and Delivered Disciples) discipleship program and graduated in March 2003, where she went on to serve at the Los Angeles Dream Center. She led the Prostitute Outreach there for over 3 1/2 years. Daryl led outreaches with Laurie after they were married in 2004.

Laurie comes out of a background of heroin and cocaine addiction, prostituting to support her drug habit. In her desperation she attempted suicide numerous times and ended up on Skid Row in downtown Los Angeles. God saved and delivered her and since then she hasn’t stopped reaching out to people that share her similar past of drug addiction and darkness.

One of the people that God touched during one of her outreaches was Daryl. Daryl had a history working for a pimp and had been arrested for prostitution.

It was their desire to see people who are living similar lifestyle they came out of: sexual bondage, drug addiction, criminal activity, addiction to money or pornography, those in gangs, pimping or prostituting or any other type of bondage to be delivered and set free by the power of Jesus Christ. They were both such hard-headed people who didn’t know God or even care to know God – but despite of all of that – He loved them, saved them and gave them new lives.

To hear more of Laurie’s testimony go to the 700 Club Amazing Stories:

http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/amazing/Laurie_Ishii030607.aspx

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

There is a lot of amazing things being done by Christians right now who believe in the Rapture. Here is just one example:

That's amazing, but see... special mention of "dirty" sins, no mention of lies, slander, greed, envy, pride, etc...

As great as what these people are doing... it's still "on message" if you get my drift.

 

[Chaplain]

That's amazing, but see... special mention of "dirty" sins, no mention of lies, slander, greed, envy, pride, etc...

As great as what these people are doing... it's still "on message" if you get my drift.

I do not understand. Could you please explain?

 

[njean777]

Hopefully the following video will shed some light on this subject for you:

Is it possible for a homosexual to live a sincere Christian life?



I do not agree, but I do understand where you are coming from.

I do not agree with this though, I understand the bible preaches morality. Thou shall not kill, rob, etc. But when you are born gay and then you are told that you cannot act those feelings out if you do find some man/woman you love, but straight people can because that is just what god wants, then I do have a problem with that. If you do believe in creationism and that god has a part in creating every human being, why would he create some that are gay and the majority not gay? What is his endgame here? To make them suffer a life with no connections?

 

[Chaplain]

I do not agree with this though, I understand the bible preaches morality. Thou shall not kill, rob, etc. But when you are born gay and then you are told that you cannot act those feelings out if you do find some man/woman you love, but straight people can because that is just what god wants, then I do have a problem with that. If you do believe in creationism and that god has a part in creating every human being, why would he create some that are gay and the majority not gay? What is his endgame here? To make them suffer a life with no connections?

A question for you? Do you believe humans commit the following sins (act out on the following feelings)?

Hostility
Quarreling
Jealousy
Outbursts of anger
Selfishness
Envy
Slander
Lying
Bitterness
Pride
Greed

Please let me know and I will answer you questions.

 

[njean777]

A question for you? Do you believe humans commit the following sins (act out on the following feelings)?

Hostility
Quarreling
Jealousy
Outbursts of anger
Selfishness
Envy
Slander
Lie
Bitterness
Pride
Greed

Please let me know and I will answer you questions.

Well yes they do, but the problem with your list is that all of those are choices. Sexual orientation is not a choice (at least from my opinion). Choosing what gender you like is not a choice, if you are gay, you are gay. You don't like women and never will or vice versa for lesbians. Straight people do not have this problem obviously as they are "right" according to the bible. But for gay people they cannot help but feel for the same gender as they were born with it.

I mean sure you can choose not to act on those homosexual feelings, but why do straight people get to have close connections with their lovers, but gays/lesbians do not? Why is it a sin for them, but not straight people? It just doesn't make sense. Especially if you cannot help being gay. The choices you listed you can not do as you are not born with those impulses, but being born gay is a whole different ballgame.

 

[speedline]

You are being prayed for and I have sent out an email chain to a bunch of churches asking for prayer on your behalf.

I just wanted to remind you about how God treated a son, written about in God's Word, that left Him and then came back.

“So he returned home to his father. And while he was still a long way off, his father saw him coming. Filled with love and compassion, he ran to his son, embraced him, and kissed him. His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against both heaven and you, and I am no longer worthy of being called your son.’

“But his father said to the servants, ‘Quick! Bring the finest robe in the house and put it on him. Get a ring for his finger and sandals for his feet. And kill the calf we have been fattening. We must celebrate with a feast, for this son of mine was dead and has now returned to life. He was lost, but now he is found.’ So the party began. Luke 15

THANK YOU for the prayers and those words I needed to hear! I sincerely believe a revelation from the Lord will be coming for myself and my family very soon. God Bless You!

 

[Chaplain]

Sexual orientation is not a choice (at least from my opinion). Choosing what gender you like is not a choice, if you are gay, you are gay. You don't like women and never will or vice versa for lesbians. Straight people do not have this problem obviously as they are "right" according to the bible. But for gay people they cannot help but feel for the same gender as they were born with it.

US scientists have discovered a Adultery Gene. That would mean it is not a choice for some people (if this proves to be true). But God says that adultery is a sin and if a christian does not repent of this sin (stop doing it) they will not go to heaven.

Do you see where I am going with this?

 

[The Technomancer]

US scientists have discovered that they found a Adultery Gene. That would mean it is not a choice for some people. But God says that adultery is a sin and if a christian does not repent they will not go to heaven.

Do you see where I am going with this?

Normally I don't post in here but this argument seems pretty level-headed on both sides and I am interested in hearing your responses to this GA. I think one of the points that njean is asking is also why homosexuality is a sin and if there is more to it besides God's proclamation. Almost all of the other things God declares as sin (including adultery) we also recognize as having a negative effect on other people.

 

[Chaplain]

Normally I don't post in here but this argument seems pretty level-headed on both sides and I am interested in hearing your responses to this GA. I think one of the points that njean is asking is also why homosexuality is a sin and if there is more to it besides God's proclamation. Almost all of the other things God declares as sin (including adultery) we also recognize as having a negative effect on other people.

Great question.

The worst effect that homosexuality has (and this includes all other sins as well), is that it breaks the relationship with God and the person committing the sin. God loves people so much that he wants to save them and have a relationship with them (just like Adam and God had in the Garden of Eden). Any time we sin, we break the relationship with God. Just like if I sin against my wife by cheating on her, the relationship with my wife would be broken, and the relationship wouldn't be the same anymore. I would be forgiven if I stopped, but the effects of my actions would be felt in her life, and in my life for many years to come.

So, God hates all sins because they put a wall between Him and us. Jesus came to break down these walls and to reconnect us with God. Any time we sin, we hurt ourselves, our relationship with God, and this flows into other relationships we have with others (most of the time).

Did that make sense?

 

[The Technomancer]

Great question.

The worst effect that homosexuality has (and this includes all other sins as well), is that it breaks the relationship with God and the person committing the sin. God loves people so much that he wants to save them and have a relationship with them (just like Adam and God had in the Garden of Eden). Any time we sin, we break the relationship with God. Just like if I sin against my wife by cheating on her, the relationship with my wife would be broken, and the relationship wouldn't be the same anymore. I would be forgiven if I stopped, but the effects of my actions would be felt in her life, and in my life for many years to come.

So, God hates all sins because they put a wall between Him and us. Jesus came to break down these walls and to reconnect us with God. Any time we sin, we hurt ourselves, our relationship with God, and this flows into other relationships we have with others (most of the time).

Did that make sense?

Yes and no. It answers why God doesn't want us to sin, but it doesn't answer why homosexuality is included in the category of sins. Is there any rationale given for its condemnation in the Bible?

 

[njean777]

US scientists have discovered a Adultery Gene. That would mean it is not a choice for some people (if this proves to be true). But God says that adultery is a sin and if a christian does not repent of this sin (stop doing it) they will not go to heaven.

Do you see where I am going with this?

I see where you are going, but then that just brings the argument if these people are more liable to commit adultery due to genetics, then why were they made this way? Also the article stated that more research is needed, not to mention they clearly state that alcohol and drugs lead to it happening more then if they were sober. Drugs or alcohol will not not make somebody gay, there is no choice when you are gay... just as if this article is correct there would be no choice for them as there genes are made for them to be more promiscuous. So again we are in a grey area that man nor the bible can answer...

 

[Switters]

All the laws in the old testament only apply to the Jews. They were not meant for any other tribe. The OT is basically genetics and tells the prophecy of Christ, by giving a detailed history of his lineage.

So, it's not okay for Jews to be gay. It doesn't say anything about anyone else, because they really didn't matter to God at the time... Other than to be chattel for the sword.

 

[Chaplain]

Yes and no. It answers why God doesn't want us to sin, but it doesn't answer why homosexuality is included in the category of sins.

In order to answer this we must go to the beginning of God's creation. Have you ever heard the statement, "You complete me"? If you stop and think about it, this really began with Adam and Eve.

When God brought all of the animals to Adam in pairs (couples) so he could name them, God allowed Adam to see that he was missing something. Adam was with God, and yet, Adam still desired companionship. Someone that was like him. God then made Eve. Adam realized that he now had a partner that completed him.

God put certain emotional needs in men and women that can only be met between a man and wife (each of them complement each other). This sacred relationship has been designed by God in marriage. God gave male and female humans and male and female animals the awesome ability to create life through this union.

Homosexuality goes against God's original design by attempting to redefine what God originally met. Just as God made male and female animals to be mates, so God intended man to be with woman, and through this union the power to create life.

All the laws in the old testament only apply to the Jews. They were not meant for any other tribe. The OT is basically genetics and tells the prophecy of Christ, by giving a detailed history of his lineage..

This view is not 100% accurate. The Law of Moses had divisions in how it was to be categorized (Civil, Priestly, and Moral). Certain things are not valid anymore because the context of those Laws were for a theocratic system (God ruled government), or they were for the priests. The theocratic system is done away with because we are not under that form of rule, and the priestly was fulfilled in Christ (so these laws are done away with).

So, let’s look at homosexuality specifically. The answer to why this law is still a sin to Christians is found in Leviticus 18:24, 27-28, “Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, for the people I am driving out before you have defiled themselves in all these ways.”

God explained that the people of the land that He was removing were doing these things (committing sexual sins) before they (the Jews) even got to the land. God showed that the people who lived in the land were wrong for doing these things and the Jew’s would be wrong in doing the same things.

From the context, we can see that these are the moral things that are specific to all morality not just Israel. God is then specific about what he wanted the Jew’s to do specifically; Do not eat shellfish, don’t cross bread seeds, don’t do this and don’t do that.

 

[mrbagdt]

All the laws in the old testament only apply to the Jews. They were not meant for any other tribe. The OT is basically genetics and tells the prophecy of Christ, by giving a detailed history of his lineage.

So, it's not okay for Jews to be gay. It doesn't say anything about anyone else, because they really didn't matter to God at the time... Other than to be chattel for the sword.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_New_Testament

an interesting article in my opinion. while there might be some gray areas that people can become confused about, i still think the biggest disagreement will come down to 1) is homosexuality a choice and 2) is it a sin. whatever your beliefs are on those two answers, i have a hard time believing that even civil discussion can change anyones mind.

 

[Chaplain]

I see where you are going, but then that just brings the argument if these people are more liable to commit adultery due to genetics, then why were they made this way?

God didn't make them this way. Sin got transferred to all humanity (the virus of sin) and it manifests itself differently in each person. Look at the following picture with me.

When we harbor bitterness in our hearts, you can see that it will manifest itself into slander, malice, anger, etc. God never intended for us to have to experience any of these things that make a person not love another person (in reference to the picture). These unloving actions are all the result of sin being brought into the world. Jesus came to die on the cross so that each of us could receive the cure for this virus. God then comes to live in us, and He gives us the ability not to give into those desires anymore.

I hope that made some sense to you.

 

[The Technomancer]

In order to answer this we must go to the beginning of God's creation. Have you ever heard the statement, "You complete me"? If you stop and think about it, this really began with Adam and Eve.

When God brought all of the animals to Adam in pairs (couples) so he could name them, God allowed Adam to see that he was missing something. Adam was with God, and yet, Adam still desired companionship. Someone that was like him. God then made Eve. Adam realized that he now had a partner that completed him.

God put certain emotional needs in men and women that can only be met between a man and wife (each of them complement each other). This sacred relationship has been designed by God in marriage. God gave male and female humans and male and female animals the awesome ability to create life through this union.

Homosexuality goes against God's original design by attempting to redefine what God originally met. Just as God made male and female animals to be mates, so God intended man to be with woman, and through this union the power to create life.

Is it also a sin to live your life alone? I'm not trying to argue anything here, just understand your positions (argument can be saved for other threads )

 

[Chaplain]

Is it also a sin to live your life alone? I'm not trying to argue anything here, just understand your positions (argument can be saved for other threads )

It is not a sin. The Bible actually says it is better for people to remain single, because they can just focus on serving God and others. Married people are focused on taking care of their families and then doing God's Work.

 

[The Technomancer]

It is not a sin. The Bible actually says it is better for people to remain single, because they can just focus on serving God and others. Married people are focused on taking care of their families and then doing God's Work.

I guess I don't understand how that reconciles with:

God put certain emotional needs in men and women that can only be met between a man and wife (each of them complement each other). This sacred relationship has been designed by God in marriage

I took that statement to mean that because these emotional needs and complementary relationship occur (in your belief) between a man and a woman then the problem was that gay individuals/pairings aren't achieving that emotional fulfillment and sacred union. But single individuals also don't achieve that emotional pairing. Gay individuals don't procreate and have children, but neither do single individuals.

 

[likedamaster]

Speedline, wow. I'm so encouraged by your story. I had a similar experience last night and wow @God's mercy. He shows us that no matter what we do, he forgives us. I pray the Lord blesses you with wisdom on how to go about these things you're dealing with.

I've had so many amazing experiences with the Lord throughout my life, there's no way I would not acknowledge God for them. He's been good to me. Words cannot explain.

God has given me much, and for that much I'm thankful. I've also seen many, many things. Both physically and spiritually. I encourage you to seek the Lord with all you've got, and never look back. God bless you.



On topic a little and because GA never came out and said it.

All homosexuality is wrong, and Jesus the Christ is the only way to heaven & spiritual fulfillment.

So that we're clear. Details to why we believe this can be explained. Cheers to everyone on this thread. I'll be hopping on & off every so often to keep up, but no promises.

 

[mrbagdt]

I guess I don't understand how that reconciles with:

I took that statement to mean that because these emotional needs and complementary relationship occur (in your belief) between a man and a woman then the problem was that gay individuals/pairings aren't achieving that emotional fulfillment and sacred union. But single individuals also don't achieve that emotional pairing. Gay individuals don't procreate and have children, but neither do single individuals.

corinthians 7 has a lot of dealing with this. paul remained single.

 

[njean777]

Speedline, wow. I'm so encouraged by your story. I had a similar experience last night and wow @God's mercy. He shows us that no matter what we do, he forgives us. I pray the Lord blesses you with wisdom on how to go about these things you're dealing with.

I've had so many amazing experiences with the Lord throughout my life, there's no way I would not acknowledge God for them. He's been good to me. Words cannot explain.

God has given me much, and for that much I'm thankful. I've also seen many, many things. Both physically and spiritually. I encourage you to seek the Lord with all you've got, and never look back. God bless you.



On topic a little and because GA never came out and said it.

All homosexuality is wrong, and Jesus the Christ is the only way to heaven & spiritual fulfillment.

So that we're clear. Details to why we believe this can be explained. Cheers to everyone on this thread. I'll be hopping on & off every so often to keep up, but no promises.

So if people are born gay then why will they be punished? If god wanted to stomp out sin then he could if he was all powerful (like the bible says and many Christians believe), but he doesn't. Why make somebody suffer being gay then? Why are people born this way if god thinks it is wrong? This is something I wonder because if god is forgiving/merciful and all powerful why not just create people all the same and not gay? Why?

If you want to bring free will into it that is not a good enough argument when it isn't a gay persons choice to be gay, they don't have the choice to say whether they are gay or not. They just are... I have heard many gay people wish they were not gay but they cannot help it.

 

[Chaplain]

Great questions so far. Let me respond to each one at a time.

So if people are born gay then why will they be punished?

All humanity is guilty of breaking God's Laws. This is one of the reasons Jesus came. So, gay people are punished no differently then any other person, because we have all sinned against God.

If god wanted to stomp out sin then he could if he was all powerful (like the bible says and many Christians believe), but he doesn't.

Once Jesus returns, God will remove all sin and restore the planet to the condition before Adam and Eve sinned. In the meantime, God offers a cure for all sins and His Spirit so that we will have the strength not to give into the desires of sin. We will not be perfect by any-means (not until we are given our new bodies - see Jesus' body after his resurrection for an example), but we will still sin because of our human bodies and mistakes we make.

Why make somebody suffer being gay then?

All humanity suffers. There doesn't go a day that I do not suffer in some way. But God can use this suffering, look at everything Jesus went through for an example, to help others who are suffering. I will say it again, suffering was never God's intention. Humanities representatives in the Garden of Eden messed up God's plan when they decided to do things without God, by disobeying him.

Why are people born this way if god thinks it is wrong?

God thinks all sins are wrong. Yet, we are all born with the infection of sin that causes us to do things that hurt ourselves, and the people we love. Basically, sin causes us to be selfish instead of selfless. God has offered the cure and help if we are willing to ask for it.

This is something I wonder because if god is forgiving/merciful and all powerful why not just create people all the same and not gay? Why?

God did create all the people the same way in the beginning. Adam and Eve decided they didn't want to remain in relationship with God when they ate from the tree God said not to eat from.

If you want to bring free will into it that is not a good enough argument when it isn't a gay persons choice to be gay, they don't have the choice to say whether they are gay or not.

But Jesus taught, that with God's help, we do not have to give into to the feelings we feel. He asks us to deny ourselves, and follow Him. We can choose to do what He says or not do what he says. If we choose His will, he will help us in all of the things we know we cannot change by ourselves and much more.

They just are... I have heard many gay people wish they were not gay but they cannot help it.

They cannot change because it is impossible for a human to change this. But with God, as Jesus said, "All things are possible." God is willing to help anyone who wants to stop sinning. It is up to each person to admit they have sinned, cannot change through Human effort, and ask God for help.

 

[njean777]

From everything you post it seems that even if people are not gay or are we are all sinners, which of course is true. So why do Christians not like gays even thought they themselves are sinners? That is what doesn't make since to me. How can you preach a all loving religion when you hate people due to their sexual orientation.

 

[mrbagdt]

From everything you post it seems that even if people are not gay or are we are all sinners, which of course is true. So why do Christians not like gays even thought they themselves are sinners? That is what doesn't make since to me. How can you preach a all loving religion when you hate people due to their sexual orientation.

if someone says they are a christian and then says they hate someone because they are a homosexual, IMO they are doing it wrong. it is simply the belief that it is / is not a sin that is the main point of contention from the discussion ive seen.

perhaps someone could say they 'hate' homosexuality, which i guess would be a true statement for christians in general, but it would be better to just say they hate sin.

I'm curious what the people here think about secular music?

as long as they lyrics arnt absurdly bad, i love all music. i did change up some of what i listened to when i was saved, but i didnt listen to that much music that had excessive swearing and such. im sure there is some stuff i enjoy that doesnt have a great message, but music is probably something im not as good about as others. one example- i love girl talk, but the rap lyrics make me cringe sometimes!

 

[Chaplain]

So why do Christians not like gays even thought they themselves are sinners?

I think many Christians forget, according to what the Bible teaches, that everyone who has not accepted Jesus is walking in darkness and that their are spiritual forces at work behind the scenes influencing people. So, what does this mean? This means that everyone on this planet is constantly be bombarded with images and sounds that are there to either pull us closer to Christ or push us away from Him. Christians should be praying before they say or do anything, so that their heart, mind, and spirit are aligned with God's. If they are not, what they are saying might sound hateful because their words are not mixed with love.

Jesus modeled perfectly how to speak the truth in love. Take the women caught in adultery for example. Jesus loved her by telling her He forgave her, but then told her the truth that she needed to stop committing that sin (because it was something unloving that she was doing).

My point in all of this is that many Christians are not filled with God's love, and since they are not filled with God's love, they say things that sound hurtful because they are hurtful.

All of us Christians, at times, stumble and misrepresent Christ. The media loves to focus on the bad apples and use them as an example that God and His Son are unloving because of the mistakes people make who represent God. When David committed adultery with his next door neighbor, and then had her husband killed to cover up the pregnancy, God sent a prophet to talk to David that told David, that because of the evil he had committed, God was being blasphemed by the surrounding nations. I think this is what you are seeing and I am sorry if others who represent God have hurt you or the ones you loved by not loving you and others.

That is what doesn't make since to me. How can you preach a all loving religion when you hate people due to their sexual orientation.

I personally do not hate people do to their sexual orientation. If I hated people for the sins they committed, I would hate everyone I know, because everyone I know sins in some way or another.

As you read in this thread today, homosexuality is a sin, and so is all selfishness (which summarizes all sins). God calls every human out for sinning, offers every single person a pardon through His Son, and then offers them His Spirit to live a life like His Son lived (a life in full fellowship with God and free of slavery to sin). This is the message of the Bible, and the message all Christians should be sharing with all people we come across (in love).

I hope you have a good evening. I am off to church with my wife. If you respond, I will try my best to do it when I come home or when I wake up tomorrow morning.

Andrew

 

[Makonero]

I don't hate gays, and no Christian who follows Christ seriously does as far as I'm concerned. I do not accept, however, having pride in your sin. I remember meeting a girl who told me she was gay. I mentioned that I was a Christian, and then she said she was Catholic. I said, "No offense, but how do you reconcile that?" And her response was basically that she ignores the parts of the Bible she doesn't agree with.

I think that moment made me realize that what gets me angry about homosexuality is the pride people have in it. I don't go around talking about how great I am at sex or how much I've stolen from others. I am not proud of my sin. I hate the attitude of people who are proud of their sin, Christian or otherwise. I have trouble loving non-Christians who are proud of their sin, but I recognize that they don't know Jesus yet, so I do my best to love them as Jesus would. It's the ones who claim they know Jesus and yet still engage in sin proudly that upset me.

 

[Orayn]

I think that moment made me realize that what gets me angry about homosexuality is the pride people have in it. I don't go around talking about how great I am at sex or how much I've stolen from others. I am not proud of my sin. I hate the attitude of people who are proud of their sin, Christian or otherwise.

Well hey, guess what? Your notion of sin is very different from the consequentialist morality that most of the world, many religious people included, runs on. Killing and stealing are "sins" even among secular people because they cause demonstrable harm, but no one is getting hurt by a stable, loving homosexual relationship. The problem is that you have a notion of morality that's so horribly disconnected from the real world.

I'm going to put this in the nicest way I can: You're off in la-la land where facts and truth are determined by a compilation of bronze age and iron age writings instead of being sussed out through testable, reliable methods. If you don't care about this sinful world, you might as well go the way of Christian Science and stop using medicine because it just means prolonging this sinful illusion.

Let's fight about it. This is the problem I have with you, Game Analyst, and several other people in this thread. We can take it to the atheism vs. theism thread if need be.

 

[Jake Tower]

You're off in la-la land where facts and truth are determined by a compilation of bronze age and iron age writings

Such as the Rape of Ganymede?

Acceptance of homosexual behavior was indicative of the moral ambivalence of the ancient hedonistic pagan world preceding Christianity. It's actually the 'old-fashioned' view.

 

[VitalNerve]

So if people are born gay then why will they be punished? If god wanted to stomp out sin then he could if he was all powerful (like the bible says and many Christians believe), but he doesn't. Why make somebody suffer being gay then? Why are people born this way if god thinks it is wrong? This is something I wonder because if god is forgiving/merciful and all powerful why not just create people all the same and not gay? Why?

If you want to bring free will into it that is not a good enough argument when it isn't a gay persons choice to be gay, they don't have the choice to say whether they are gay or not. They just are... I have heard many gay people wish they were not gay but they cannot help it.

A gay is not facing judgement b/c he/she is gay, but b/c they are a sinners, like everybody else. Rev 21:8 explains who will face the lake of fire. And as far as them being born gay, I can somewhat agree with that statement, only b/c the Bible says we are born with sin and we are afflicted with certain sins more than others, some lie more, others steal etc. But through Jesus he can help us fight our sins, he understands our troubles, worries, sins (Isaiah 63:9) it is only a matter of whether you accept him or not.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

How do Christians who believe in a literal hell reconcile it with the notion that God is meant to be all loving? Can someone explain to me why a supposed sinner (lets say someone who has told a lie), deserves to be tortured for eternity?

 

[vagabondarts]

The Church in Ephesus (A.D. 33 to A.D. 100)
Taken from Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1672). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

I just want to say thank you for posting this. It sums up where I'm at exactly and it encouraged me.

Missing the closeness I felt to God in the early times. Looking back I don't know how I drifted so far away. Regardless of my drifting, He is still faithful.

 

[njean777]

I don't hate gays, and no Christian who follows Christ seriously does as far as I'm concerned. I do not accept, however, having pride in your sin. I remember meeting a girl who told me she was gay. I mentioned that I was a Christian, and then she said she was Catholic. I said, "No offense, but how do you reconcile that?" And her response was basically that she ignores the parts of the Bible she doesn't agree with.

I think that moment made me realize that what gets me angry about homosexuality is the pride people have in it. I don't go around talking about how great I am at sex or how much I've stolen from others. I am not proud of my sin. I hate the attitude of people who are proud of their sin, Christian or otherwise. I have trouble loving non-Christians who are proud of their sin, but I recognize that they don't know Jesus yet, so I do my best to love them as Jesus would. It's the ones who claim they know Jesus and yet still engage in sin proudly that upset me.

Why not have pride on who you are? Not every gay is going around shoving it in peoples faces. You can be prideful of who you are, but not so prideful you subject your pride on others. I wouldn't want them to be ashamed of what they are for the entirety of their life as it would make the world a horrible place.

Also what is wrong with her picking out which parts of the bible she likes? Most Christians do it when they are trying to make a point and taking the literal meaning of every word, yet in my opinion the bible should be used as an allegorical source and not taken literal. I don't agree with everything the bible says and I am sure you don't either.

Also what about the fundamentalist Christians that are supposedly on God's side? Pushing it down everybody's throats with bigotry comments and judgement on soldiers/gays? Do you hate their sin also?

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Love thy neighbor as thyself

 

[Helscream]

Also what about the fundamentalist Christians that are supposedly on God's side? Pushing it down everybody's throats with bigotry comments and judgement on soldiers/gays? Do you hate their sin also?

People like that a really "Christians in Name only". They practice a "salvation through works" type of doctrine. They think the more people they can condemn the holier they are and the more God will like them. They are like the Pharisee's and Sadducee's. They spend their lives damning everyone else and try to make them feel like shit. People who do this are hollow. They have no love in their lives nor compassion.

I will say that they are the most dangerous and harmful to Christianity. Its one thing for a Atheist to tell you there is no god and make his claim and present his research to prove why. Its far more damning for a person who claims to be a "christian", but gives you a demonstration or example that is far from what the faith is.

So yes I hate their sin, but I hate their ignorance even more. I actually end up arguing with other Christians about their incorrect/corrupt doctrine then I do a person who is Atheist/Agnostic because is this crap.

 

[Chaplain]

My church had a free concert last night. The concert featured the music of nineteen year old, singer/song writer Moriah Peters. Here are some of her songs for those that are interested:

Moriah Peters - Well Done
Moriah Peters - "I Choose Jesus" acoustic (live)
Moriah Peters - Waves of Love
Moriah Peters - How He Loves (Live)

 

[mrbagdt]

an outreach my church did this past saturday where we gave out 400 backpacks filled with school supplies to area families that needed help. this is what its all about!

http://vimeo.com/47123430

 

[Helscream]

an outreach my church did this past saturday where we gave out 400 backpacks filled with school supplies to area families that needed help. this is what its all about!

http://vimeo.com/47123430

Your efforts are commendable, it is good to see that it succeeded.

You and Game Analyst got me trumped. My Church is always got something going own, but with my work schedule all I really do is just attend Sunday/Wednesday church service.

Good work none the less though.

 

[mrbagdt]

Your efforts are commendable, it is good to see that it succeeded.

You and Game Analyst got me trumped. My Church is always got something going own, but with my work schedule all I really do is just attend Sunday/Wednesday church service.

Good work none the less though.

well, our college age ministry that leads this, and it is one of the two sorta big events that ministry does each year. it was crazy- last year we gave away 200 backbacks and gave away that number on the button. this year we bought 400 backpacks... and had to turn away at least 200-300 people because we ran out. it was hard having to tell people we ran out of backpacks and they were understandably upset (standing outside waiting in line in the heat of louisiana). next year we will just have to get even bigger.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Love thy neighbor as thyself

Unfortunately, the problem with giving this advice back to a lot of Christians is that it doesn't instill the desired interpretation of the metaphor.

Many Christians have deeply internalized vast self-hatred and shame, regarding themselves as miserable and vile creatures purely because they're human. An inescapable state of suffering. How can they 'love thy neighbor' when they hate themselves?

Within that mental trap, it's proper and right to feel disgust at other people who are merely acting normal and human, because normal and human is a vile evil thing God has said is a sin.

Witness someone in this conversation expressing how they're upset that gay people say they're gay, because he doesn't go around talking about sex himself, since it's just so sinful.

You can't have a rational conversation about humanity with someone who is convinced humanity is inherently evil ('sinful'). That goes btw for anyone, not just Christians. Plenty of non-religious cynics and nihilists are impossible to talk to because they're wallowing in their own justification for self hatred and misery at the mere existence of humanity.

Though it may be easier to convince a cynic to reconsider their point of view, than someone whose hatred of humanity is based on supernatural doctrine that can never be 'disproved' with rational conversation.

 

[Chaplain]

Are We Too "Negative"?
The Harbinger-A Matter of Critical Discernment
A Generation Adrift (Part 2)
A Generation Adrift (Part 1)
Who Can Understand the Gospel?
Warning the Witnesses
Chrislam? Christian Palestinianism??
God's Plan for the Clueless: A personal testimony
Is Your Eschatology Showing?
The Less Than Truthful "Truth Project"
From Oprah to Oz—And Beyond
Is "Heaven Is for Real" for Real?: An Exercise In Discernment
Beck's Bogus Beliefs
Apostasy and Its Antidote
The Temporal Delusion (Part 1)
The Temporal Delusion (Part 2)
The Temporal Delusion (Part 3)
Knowing & Loving God
The New Inquisition
Reflections on a Reasonable Faith
The Value of Suffering
Cosmos, Creator, and Human Destiny (Part 1)
Cosmos, Creator, and Human Destiny (Part 2)
True Love - Part One
True Love Part Two: Morals and Meaning
The Battle over Truth for Our Youth
The "Jesus" the World Loves
Confronting the Enemies of God
The Shameful Social Gospel
Ancient-Future Heresies
Evangelical Mysticism?
An Eternal Perspective