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Christianity |OT| The official thread of hope, faith and infinite love.

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DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
Challenge accepted!

Now I just need to find something to say. :)

Okay here's something:

From the fact that this is GAF I gather you guys and gals are into videogames, right? What's your system of choice at the moment, and what are you playing? I'm on PS4 and biggest timesinks at the moment are Alien Isolation and Drivelub. Feel free to add me on PSN (same name) Christian GAF, I'd like to know more people of faith from around the World.

how is driveclub , i've had an itch for an open world driving game that is more polished than tdu2 and all its rough edges. PC is my choic platform for gaming but i might get a PS4 for the living room, fighting games and movies + apps would make it a good addition. Kinda waiting to see if Drive Club will come to PC , otherwise might have to go with Project Cars. You guys can add me on steam if you want , im MajorGlory++, usually get in a few games of dota 2 or some button smashing in Tera.
 
Challenge accepted!

Now I just need to find something to say. :)

Okay here's something:

From the fact that this is GAF I gather you guys and gals are into videogames, right? What's your system of choice at the moment, and what are you playing? I'm on PS4 and biggest timesinks at the moment are Alien Isolation and Drivelub. Feel free to add me on PSN (same name) Christian GAF, I'd like to know more people of faith from around the World.
I'm flipping between systems. I take either my PSV or 2DS to campus and use my PS4 at home. Lately, I've also been playing some Driveclub as well as Fire Emblem: Awakening and some of the latest PS+ offerings like Transistor. It's almost Lent, so I'll probably be cutting the more violent and involved games out of my diet for that.
how is driveclub , i've had an itch for an open world driving game that is more polished than tdu2 and all its rough edges.
If you want racing games, then Driveclub is great and Project CARS will also be great. But if you're looking for an open-world game? Absolutely not what DC and PCARS offer. They're both racetrack games. Not every game is a literal racetrack, but every track is a closed circuit with no connectivity from place to place. They're gorgeous locales though.
 

Kansoku

Member
Challenge accepted!

Now I just need to find something to say. :)

Okay here's something:

From the fact that this is GAF I gather you guys and gals are into videogames, right? What's your system of choice at the moment, and what are you playing? I'm on PS4 and biggest timesinks at the moment are Alien Isolation and Drivelub. Feel free to add me on PSN (same name) Christian GAF, I'd like to know more people of faith from around the World.

At the moment just a PC and 3DS. On PC I'm setting up some emulators, but since my classes started this week, I'll play very little on it. On 3DS I'm playing a little of FE: Awakening, and waiting for MonHun 4U. Probably will get a Wii U with Zelda + Xenoblade at the end of the year.
 
Hello. :3

I'm a Protestant living in a Buddist/Shinto country. It isn't weird or hard for me since I am very open-minded about other religions, and I don't feel like I'm "cheating on God" by following certain religious trends here. It is mostly seen as a lifestyle rather than religion. I have to respect my friends and family (my parents/family have mixed religions from being of different countries) so I choose to do certain things as a part of our life. If a family member dies, I am not going to skip the funeral just because it's a Buddist funeral. God understands my view and he knows my faith is strong, and I am just respectful towards others and their beliefs.

Either way, I suppose I am trying to introduce myself in a way. It's nice to meet you all! I find different religions to be very intersting too (as long as I can avoid negative discussions or arguements). But I prefer to read articles about it and not discuss with others. Religion and politics is something I never discuss.. Talk? Sure, I can talk about religion! But if people are being negative on purpose I am not interested. But I suppose this thread will be safe and relaxing.

What denomination are you a worshipper with?
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
Breaking news: 2,500 year old Jewish Tablets found in Iraq. Over 100 of them!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/simcha-jacobovici/2500-year-old-jewish-tabl_b_6579996.html

This is so awesome.

Yeah I read about this yesterday, i used to be so timid about this kind of stuff, didn't know just how rich the world of biblical archeology was and is becoming. Looking into the research for myself has really strengthened my faith i'm not even shocked about these finds anymore.

There's another dvd coming out on the Exodus apparently there are some sites in Egypt that lend credeance to parts of Genesis and some Exodus. Namely Joseph, a large Semitic population in teh nile delta, above ground burials, semetic slave lists etc etc. I dont think the DVD is out just yet but there are some you tube previews.

Patterns of Evidence

looks promising.
 
Hi GAF

Born and raised Catholic. Believe strongly in it but have like 6 months not going to church. I mean to but I am just making excuses about having no time and being tired.

I plan to visit some other churches like a few small protestant ones and maybe a "last days" church. My girlfriend is living with me, technically it's a sin but I don't share that view. She's a Christian but not yet baptised.

I am subscribing to this and share with fellow gaffers.

Is any of you a pastor/priest?
 
Hi GAF

Born and raised Catholic. Believe strongly in it but have like 6 months not going to church. I mean to but I am just making excuses about having no time and being tired.

I plan to visit some other churches like a few small protestant ones and maybe a "last days" church. My girlfriend is living with me, technically it's a sin but I don't share that view. She's a Christian but not yet baptised.

I am subscribing to this and share with fellow gaffers.

Is any of you a pastor/priest?
I'm sure this is no help, but the son of a pastor here!
 

legend166

Member
Hi GAF

Born and raised Catholic. Believe strongly in it but have like 6 months not going to church. I mean to but I am just making excuses about having no time and being tired.

I plan to visit some other churches like a few small protestant ones and maybe a "last days" church. My girlfriend is living with me, technically it's a sin but I don't share that view. She's a Christian but not yet baptised.

I am subscribing to this and share with fellow gaffers.

Is any of you a pastor/priest?

This is mainly a Protestant thread (I think there's a separate Catholic thread), but welcome.

What do you mean "you don't share that view?"
 

JohnTinker

Limbaugh Parrot
Didn't know this thread existed!

I work at a Southern Baptist megachurch in FL and we had a big students event last night, saw 44 MS & HS kids make decisions
 
Would it be worth it for a tiny minority of posters and a lot of shit posting about what the Pope did or didn't say?
Probably not honestly, and I don't know what kind of help the mods would give us. That's why I've stayed in here for the most part. I don't need to hear junk about what my Church's Patriarchs have and haven't said.
 

Chaplain

Member
New blog is up: Romans 1 (The Human Race Guilty Before God) verse 14-32.

Things discussed...

The tragic result of human guilt before God:

Why does God give a person over to their sins?
How does a person trade God's truth for the ultimate lie?
What is the ultimate lie?
What are the consequences of a person rejecting God?
What does the New Testament say about homosexuality?
What is the pro-homosexuality view of Romans 1?
Is homosexuality a violation of the sacredness of human sexuality?
What does it mean to have a debased mind?
What are the daily results of letting sin control our lives?

New apologetics videos:

The Gospel in 5 minutes
Vince Vitale on Science, Miracles and the Virgin Birth
God Is the Best Explanation of Intentional States of Consciousness In the World

New Sermons to download:

2/3/2015 - Genesis 12
2/4/2015 - Psalms 77-78
2/4/2015 - Colossians 3

Thanks for all the links GameAnalyst they are a great way to spend an afternoon pre or post reading the scriptures. Here is another archive i have found that is chock full of topics by a Dr Phil Fernandez, he's been really helpful to me and is a great lecturer on new testament reliability. This link has many many sermons/classes spanning a decade.

Ty bro. I will take a listen sometime this week.

Not that I have anything against Game Analyst's blog stuff.

No offense taken. I am just happy that there are so many believers here and hopefully more come in this thread to share their stories, hearts, and battles they are facing.
 

Chaplain

Member
A new Unbelievable podcast has been uploaded:

Suffering-Unbelievable-Debate-Main.jpg_article_image.jpg


Unbelievable? Why does God allow suffering? Vince Vitale & Julian Baggini
Saturday 7th February 2015 - 02:30 pm


Following atheist Stephen Fry's viral anti-God video, the question of how a good God could allow suffering has come into focus again.

Justin is joined by Christian Oxford philosopher Vince Vitale, author of "Why Suffering?" as he debates the issues with atheist think Julian Baggini.

Get the MP3

To watch the video of this debate and Justin's own response to Stephen Fry go to http://www.premierchristianradio.com/Shows/Saturday/Unbelievable/Videos

For Vince Vitale: www.theocca.org

For John Loftus: www.microphilosophy.net
 
This is mainly a Protestant thread (I think there's a separate Catholic thread), but welcome.

What do you mean "you don't share that view?"

I just think if there is love, passion, good friendship and we can help our finances, we can live together until we bounce up and get married.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
go and get a marriage license and finish it up then , you guys can have a wedding later looks like thats the plan. Justice of the Peace that.
 

Chaplain

Member
go and get a marriage license and finish it up then , you guys can have a wedding later looks like thats the plan. Justice of the Peace that.

I agree. No reason to wait. God wants to bless both of them and wont do it until they submit to his plan of marriage. Until then, God's hands are tied since He won't bless disobedience. ^_~
 

Chaplain

Member
New blog is up: Romans 1 (The Guilt of the Moralist and the Jew) verse 1-3.

Things discussed..

God's judgment upon the morally educated (Part 1)

Why is the moralist guilty of condemning others?
Are Christians allowed to judge people's fruit?
What is evil?
What is the moralist saying to God when they judge some-else?
What does it mean that moral absolutes exist?
Why does God condemn the moralist?
How will God judge the moralist?
Why is God the best explanation for morality?
Why is the moralist guilty like everyone else on earth?
Can being good buy God's favor in the afterlife?.

Some new videos:

John Lennox gives the best explanation of Christianity I've ever heard as an Atheist

Does Science Argue for or Against God?

Why are we here? Literally. The latest science says we shouldn’t be. It says that the chance life exists at all is less than zero. So, is science the greatest threat to the idea of Intelligent Design or is science its greatest advocate? Best-selling author and lecturer, Eric Metaxas, poses this intriguing question and comes up with a very unexpected and challenging answer.

An article on Apologetics:

What is ‘Apologetics’?

New sermons (Right Click/Save As):

2/8/15 - Jesus Stands Alone (Colossians 1:15-19)
2/8/15 - 2 Timothy 1:1-7
2/8/15 - Choose Your Words Carefully (James 3:9-12)
2/8/15 - God's Bailout for Sinners (Selected Scriptures)
2/8/15 - Nahum 1
2/8/15 - Revelation 2:12-17
2/8/15 - I Will Carry You (Is 46:1-4)
2/8/15 - Isaiah 44:21-45:25
 

Chaplain

Member
New blog is up: Romans 2 (The Guilt of the Moralist and the Jew) verse 4-10.

Things discussed...

God's judgment upon the morally educated (Part 2)

What does it mean to despise the God's goodness, forbearance, and long-suffering?
What are the riches of God's mercy toward us?
Is it a sin to assume we deserve God's graciousness?
How do people misinterpret God's forbearance and longsuffering?
Is there why God is good to wicked people?
What does God want the wicked to understand about His goodness?
Does God force people to repent?
Are remorse and repentance the same thing?
Why are moralist's building up God's wrath towards them?
Is God's salvation merit based?
How are people saved in the three monotheistic religions?
God will judge the moralist because their works also fall short of God's perfect standard.
Is Paul now saying Salvation is merit based?
The depiction of religion as a way or a path.

Ravi Zacharias' article on the national prayer breakfast:

A PRESIDENTIAL BLUNDER: MY RESPONSE TO OBAMA’S ADDRESS AT THE NATIONAL PRAYER BREAKFAST

Four new apologetic lectures

Absolute Truth in Relative Terms - EP2

Have you ever wondered why some temptations are much harder to say no to than others? What makes those allurements so attractive and can we find a way to change our desires? Author and apologist Ravi Zacharias discusses the dilemma today on Let My People Think

Is America Really Christian? - EP1

Pluralism is a hallmark of American life. But in today's culture many think that means moral relativity. Is the result an end of Christianity in America? Ravi Zacharias explores that question in a lecture to an audience in Atlanta.

2015 Veritas Forum @ Pepperdine University - One God, Many Paths? (2/9/2015)

2015 Veritas Forum @ Pepperdine University - God of Love; God of Judgement (2/10/2015)

This year, Pepperdine is honored to host the renowned Michael Ramsden on February 9th and 10th in the Firestone Fieldhouse. Michael is a passionate apologist, professor at Oxford Center for Christian Apologetics, and the European Director of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries
.
 
What's everyone's relationship with (Christian) music?

Anyone a big fan of some contemporary group? Or big into hymns? Or perhaps into participating in contemporary worship music? Any cantors around?

Personally, I am in a Christian rock group, so obviously Christian music is kind of a big deal for me. I play the bass and write most of the lyrics. I'd say we're half 50/50 preachy and self-reflecting. It has been a very important way of sharing my faith and my thoughts about life. I am a shy guy, so it's easier for me to write that stuff down and let someone else sing it, than discuss my faith face-to-face.
 
What's everyone's relationship with (Christian) music?

Anyone a big fan of some contemporary group? Or big into hymns? Or perhaps into participating in contemporary worship music? Any cantors around?

Personally, I am in a Christian rock group, so obviously Christian music is kind of a big deal for me. I play the bass and write most of the lyrics. I'd say we're half 50/50 preachy and self-reflecting. It has been a very important way of sharing my faith and my thoughts about life. I am a shy guy, so it's easier for me to write that stuff down and let someone else sing it, than discuss my faith face-to-face.
Traditional Byzantine cantor here.

I don't mind most contemporary Christian music. Since I find modern pop music so bleugh, sometimes I use it to fill that void. Definitely not something I usually go out of my way to find, but if I'm flipping radio stations, I'll stop and listen if I hear it.
 

Kansoku

Member
I don't really like Christian music.

My parents were new to faith when I was a kid and were very conservative and naive, so much so that they've burned everything I had that was from Disney during the subliminal message craze. So only Christian music in the house. As such i never really cared about music. The church music never did anything to me. But when I was in 8th grade, I had a group work for English class (I'm from Brazil), in which we had to pick a song, and make new lyrics for it, and then play/sing it later. My friend suggested Trouble from Coldplay, and listening to their other stuff it was the first time I enjoyed music. He showed me later the band Red (a Christian hardcore band) which I loved and made me search for more like that. When searching for new music I always checked if they were Christian. But as time went on, I cared less about that. I saw Coldplay lyrics and they were really nice, and not Christian, so why would it matter. Eventually I cared less and less about lyrics. Then I discovered the Japanese music thread here around the time I decided to learn Japanese and it was then when I actually fell in love with music. I discovered many new genres. And this sealed the deal for me. I went from only Christian music, to actively disliking it.

There are may reasons. Listening to Japanese music I've seen so many creative stuff. Stuff that I never even imagined. From tricot to Kinoko Teikoku, from Gesu no Kiwami Otome to Ling Toshite Shigure, from indigo la End to Perfume. And then there are stuff like BABYMETAL that are extremely novel and creative even in "secular" music. It made the flaws in Christian music even more apparent. There's a lack of diversity, a lack of creativity. The "holy trinity" of christian music is Hardcore/Metal, Rap/Hip-hop and the Worship/Pop-Rock/Singer-Songwriter that I like to call Gospel (which are stuff like Hillsong). There's nothing after that. The day I see krautrock, drone, lowercase, avant garde, shoegaze, dream pop, noise, dark ambient, free jazz, or other genres Christian music, I'm going to be in awe. Aside from that, I fell that, especially in the "Gospel" genre, which it's what is often played at the church, lyrics are pretty mediocre at best. This video show pretty well what I dislike (and the fact that the song at the end really sounds like a real song it's solid). The only Christian band that I like is Emery. Their lyrics are great, as they talk about life, instead of "God is good. Repeat 30 times". They have songs that talk about the relationship with God, but they also have songs that have nothing to do with it (Like Piggy Bank Lies that is about finding that a girl is cheating on you). And there's also the fact that I don't think segregating Christian stuff from the rest is good, but oh well.

I want to like Christian music. I want to listen to a song that talks about the struggles one find when tying to live a "Christian" live and relate to it. But I never found that. For example, right now I'm struggling with trying to find my place in the "church culture". I'm not really going to church and I don't really feel like I belong for a multitude of reasons, but I'm trying to understand what I should do. But I never listened to a song that talks about struggling with going to church, and even if I did it would probably not talk about the reasons that I do.
 
The "holy trinity" of christian music is Hardcore/Metal, Rap/Hip-hop and the Worship/Pop-Rock/Singer-Songwriter that I like to call Gospel (which are stuff like Hillsong). There's nothing after that. The day I see krautrock, drone, lowercase, avant garde, shoegaze, dream pop, noise, dark ambient, free jazz, or other genres Christian music, I'm going to be in awe.

There's some things I agree with you in your post, and some things I'd like to discuss more. Sadly I don't have much time right now, but wanted to answer to this one point you are making.

I agree that in (American?) scene those listed are prevalent, but there are people making music in niche genres too. It's just that they are hard to find. Niche artist in niche genres.

I don't know if this counts as dream pop or anything you'd like, but this is one of my favourite songs.

The Violet Burning - Song of the Harlot

lol I ended up listening to it after a long time and it sort of destroyed me again
 

Kansoku

Member
Also, there's two thing that I forgot to mention. Here in Brazil a lot of the songs are actually translations of songs from other bands. And ok, it's nice to bring these songs to more people, but I find it sad that people have to do that.

And also, there's a lack in instrumental songs. They can be extremely powerful. For example, I absolutely love Tokyo Shoegazer's Waltz Matilda or té's 思想も.... They're dauntingly beautiful. And then you have some more artistic stuff...

I agree that in (American?) scene those listed are prevalent, but there are people making music in niche genres too. It's just that they are hard to find. Niche artist in niche genres.

There definitely is someone making niche music. But then chances are they don't explicit say they are Christian, or even if they do, chances are they're more know outside of Christian circles than in. A lot of Christians I've talked to (I know, not everyone it's like that) are extremely averse to "outside" music. I still remember when metal was "of the devil". These people don't find value in (such) diversity, and so these niches can't really thrive by targeting these audiences. They're much better off "appealing" to the "secular" crowd.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
I don't really like Christian music.

My parents were new to faith when I was a kid and were very conservative and naive, so much so that they've burned everything I had that was from Disney during the subliminal message craze. So only Christian music in the house. As such i never really cared about music. The church music never did anything to me. But when I was in 8th grade, I had a group work for English class (I'm from Brazil), in which we had to pick a song, and make new lyrics for it, and then play/sing it later. My friend suggested Trouble from Coldplay, and listening to their other stuff it was the first time I enjoyed music. He showed me later the band Red (a Christian hardcore band) which I loved and made me search for more like that. When searching for new music I always checked if they were Christian. But as time went on, I cared less about that. I saw Coldplay lyrics and they were really nice, and not Christian, so why would it matter. Eventually I cared less and less about lyrics. Then I discovered the Japanese music thread here around the time I decided to learn Japanese and it was then when I actually fell in love with music. I discovered many new genres. And this sealed the deal for me. I went from only Christian music, to actively disliking it.

There are may reasons. Listening to Japanese music I've seen so many creative stuff. Stuff that I never even imagined. From tricot to Kinoko Teikoku, from Gesu no Kiwami Otome to Ling Toshite Shigure, from indigo la End to Perfume. And then there are stuff like BABYMETAL that are extremely novel and creative even in "secular" music. It made the flaws in Christian music even more apparent. There's a lack of diversity, a lack of creativity. The "holy trinity" of christian music is Hardcore/Metal, Rap/Hip-hop and the Worship/Pop-Rock/Singer-Songwriter that I like to call Gospel (which are stuff like Hillsong). There's nothing after that. The day I see krautrock, drone, lowercase, avant garde, shoegaze, dream pop, noise, dark ambient, free jazz, or other genres Christian music, I'm going to be in awe. Aside from that, I fell that, especially in the "Gospel" genre, which it's what is often played at the church, lyrics are pretty mediocre at best. This video show pretty well what I dislike (and the fact that the song at the end really sounds like a real song it's solid). The only Christian band that I like is Emery. Their lyrics are great, as they talk about life, instead of "God is good. Repeat 30 times". They have songs that talk about the relationship with God, but they also have songs that have nothing to do with it (Like Piggy Bank Lies that is about finding that a girl is cheating on you). And there's also the fact that I don't think segregating Christian stuff from the rest is good, but oh well.

I want to like Christian music. I want to listen to a song that talks about the struggles one find when tying to live a "Christian" live and relate to it. But I never found that. For example, right now I'm struggling with trying to find my place in the "church culture". I'm not really going to church and I don't really feel like I belong for a multitude of reasons, but I'm trying to understand what I should do. But I never listened to a song that talks about struggling with going to church, and even if I did it would probably not talk about the reasons that I do.


meh... nothing its better than the hymnal book selections for me, grew up on em,and to hear them done properly, very few "christian" branded albums compare. I would get you have to dig for things genuinely good just like any other genre...i just don't. Gimmie my hymnals, though i think some of the newer songs are pretty great...i guess.
 

Red Mage

Member
What's everyone's relationship with (Christian) music?

Anyone a big fan of some contemporary group? Or big into hymns? Or perhaps into participating in contemporary worship music? Any cantors around?

Personally, I am in a Christian rock group, so obviously Christian music is kind of a big deal for me. I play the bass and write most of the lyrics. I'd say we're half 50/50 preachy and self-reflecting. It has been a very important way of sharing my faith and my thoughts about life. I am a shy guy, so it's easier for me to write that stuff down and let someone else sing it, than discuss my faith face-to-face.

I dislike contemporary music. For me, generally, the older the better. My church has the early service which is more traditional and late service which is more modern. As soon as my Eldership is up I'm jumping to early service. xD
 
I don't really like Christian music.

I want to like Christian music. I want to listen to a song that talks about the struggles one find when tying to live a "Christian" live and relate to it. But I never found that. For example, right now I'm struggling with trying to find my place in the "church culture". I'm not really going to church and I don't really feel like I belong for a multitude of reasons, but I'm trying to understand what I should do. But I never listened to a song that talks about struggling with going to church, and even if I did it would probably not talk about the reasons that I do.

Bro I feel you. I feel that way being a contemporary person who enjoys contemporary things, but the church crowd is much older and more... decided in their ways.

A lot of my musical tastes originated from hip-hop and split from there. Hip-hop is a large genre, but the more violent, misogynistic, sexist artists sell and not the stuff that talks about religion and church and growing up in a secular world. "Jesus Walks" by Kanye West is the best I've received, which is why I'm a huge fan of his.

I was really excited when Mase came out with an album that was for the more church-going crowd, but after a full listen through, it wasn't evocative or pushing anything. I expected a man who became a preacher to want to push bigger ideas of how people struggle with religion and how the Church can guide people to rationalize their lives, but he played it safe and it was mediocre to underwhelming.
 
You'll need to educate me on what this means!

Well, there's a lot of things I could say, but I'll try to condense it and make it easy to get through.

This historical background is that Byzantine Chant is the traditional musical (vocal) style of the Eastern Orthodox Church (if you don't know what that Church is, that's a totally different discussion) and is still used in the Eastern Orthodox Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Greece, and Albania. We use it in all our services.

The Slavic Eastern Orthodox Churches (Russia, Ukraine, Estonia, etc) use their own style of music. Some of them use Byzantine Chant, but probably most of the big Slavic Churches use a more Western choral style of music. They used to use Byzantine music predominantly centuries ago, but Western influences have changed their music a bit.

Anyhoo. That's history. Without delving too much into musical theory, the basic is that the chant is built on eight modes (tones), each mode with its own specific tonality. The modes change from week to week, rotating through eight-week cycles. Given our unique musical foundation, our music actually has its own musical notation, which you can check out here. It is (obviously) completely different and foreign from Western notation.

So all that is to say that I'm trained in chanting in this style.

That was a whole lot of words and doesn't do much to explain what it sounds like.

Here's some in Arabic: http://youtu.be/9bmzoxLk51g

Here's some in Greek (this is a rendition of Psalm 102): http://youtu.be/im3Wuv4ILAY

Here's a concert performance in Greek, obviously done outside of a church setting: http://youtu.be/a_KtS3FanCc

And more usefully for this forum, here's some in English. This is part of what we sing at a funeral: http://youtu.be/Bf7LKa9w9hM

Hopefully that explains something.
 

ST2K

Member
The thing I've come to decide is to look for music made by Christians, not for Christian Music.

There's a very critical difference there. One is made for a specific industry to cater to an audience as broad as can be, an is thus doctrinally empty as possible from a lyrical standpoint, in addition to being mostly vapid both musically and lyrically. The other is music that reflects a person or band's life in its totality, in terms of both musical structure and how they craft lyrics. They can make sad songs in addition to happy songs. They can make songs that talk about broader principles and don't feel the need to namedrop Jesus to make a label happy. It's just way more genuine, edifying to the hearer, and just plain more fun to listen to.

Of course, not all Christian music bands are like my caricature. And I think there should be a distinct line drawn between music we listen to recreationally and music we listen to for worship. But I've gotten a ton out of that principle -- finding and listening to Christians making music rather than Christian Music -- so I felt compelled to share.
 
The thing I've come to decide is to look for music made by Christians, not for Christian Music.

There's a very critical difference there. One is made for a specific industry to cater to an audience as broad as can be, an is thus doctrinally empty as possible from a lyrical standpoint, in addition to being mostly vapid both musically and lyrically. The other is music that reflects a person or band's life in its totality, in terms of both musical structure and how they craft lyrics. They can make sad songs in addition to happy songs. They can make songs that talk about broader principles and don't feel the need to namedrop Jesus to make a label happy. It's just way more genuine, edifying to the hearer, and just plain more fun to listen to.

Of course, not all Christian music bands are like my caricature. And I think there should be a distinct line drawn between music we listen to recreationally and music we listen to for worship. But I've gotten a ton out of that principle -- finding and listening to Christians making music rather than Christian Music -- so I felt compelled to share.

I agree. It should be about honesty and letting the faith show in a natural way, rather than catering to an industry. ("Luckily" we don't really have a Christian music industry in Finland, we're all more or less indie here.)

This is what I also try to achieve myself as a writer. I don't think I have ever made anything worthwhile by trying to make lyrics that "the audience would like". I just write about life and how I feel and what I see. The Christianity in the lyrics comes from me being unable to write about sadness without my greatest comfort, about life without it's goal, about nature without it's Creator and so on.

But I want honesty on both ends. I sometimes get annoyed when musicians seem to go through great loops in trying to say things that Christians sort of understand to be about God or faith, but secular audiences wont pick up. I get it, they are trying to earn a living and being "too Christian" could hurt that. But as a listener I have my right to be annoyed. :)
 

legend166

Member
I think most Christian 'pop' music is pretty trite and shallow. A lot of it is man-centred. But I've got no real issue with people who listen to it for enjoyment purposes. I've got a pretty big problem with it when it's used for worship. Most music in churches today is designed around it being a performance rather than corporate worship. Give me a hymn that was written for the church to sing rather than a song written for a band to perform.

And don't get me started on Hillsong. Wolves in sheeps clothing.
 

Chaplain

Member
New blog is up: Romans 2 (The Guilt of the Moralist and the Jew) verse 11-16.

Things discussed...

God's judgment upon the Jewish man (Part 1).

What is God's principle of impartiality?
Why are the Jew and Gentile both condemned by God?
What is a hazard many Christians commit?
Why can the Gentile be condemned if they never had God's Laws?
Can people be saved by obeying their conscience?
What does sin do to the human conscience?
What does it mean that all humanity has a moral compass?
What does the human conscience ultimately point to?
Do we need God in order to be good or evil?
On what basis will God judge people in the afterlife?
Why does Paul call the gospel his gospel?
Why will Jesus judge people in the afterlife?
A Summary of Romans 2:1-16.
What is Paul's whole point of the Romans 1 and 2?

Five short apologetics videos:

01. Isn't religion just a psychological crutch?
02. Islam and Christianity: Is it the same God?
03. Isn't faith just for the stupid and gullible?
04. What does it really mean to be human?
05. Why is the Bible against sexual freedom?

New Sermons (Right Click/Save As)

2/11/2015 - Lesson 9 - Joseph (Hebrews 11:1)
2/11/2015 - Proverbs 1
2/11/2015 - Psalms 79-81
 
I think most Christian 'pop' music is pretty trite and shallow. A lot of it is man-centred. But I've got no real issue with people who listen to it for enjoyment purposes. I've got a pretty big problem with it when it's used for worship. Most music in churches today is designed around it being a performance rather than corporate worship. Give me a hymn that was written for the church to sing rather than a song written for a band to perform.

And don't get me started on Hillsong. Wolves in sheeps clothing.

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Why can't church music be contemporary and exclusive to that denomination?
 

legend166

Member
Why does it have to be one or the other?

Why can't church music be contemporary and exclusive to that denomination?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean? My point isn't that there's something inherently wrong with contemporary music. Something isn't inherently better because it's 400 years old and the other thing is 4 years old. That's an appeal to tradition that the Reformation was trying to eradicate from the church.

My point was more often than not, contemporary worship music isn't written as something to be participated in by a congregation of people who may or may not be able to sing or play instruments. It's written to be performed by the church band while the congregation awkwardly looks on or gets involved through a purely emotional connection (i.e. the adult equivalent of that gif from Jesus Camp where the baby is waving his hand around). The music team at modern churches has now become more important than the pastor and the sermon. The preaching of the Word is constantly pushed into the background whilst the music becomes more and more prominent.

The modern church sees it's entire mission as trying to draw in the biggest crowd as possible. Mega churches are the order of the day. Every church needs as many programs as possible (along with a great house band!) in order to draw in the crowds, because what's better proof that God is blessing us than if we've got 500 people in our Sunday service?

The problem is, none of that is scriptural and is only doing harm to the spreading of the Gospel.

As for Hillsong, they absolutely typify this movement, mixed in with a healthy dose of prosperity teaching (Brian Houston's salary is $300,000. Think about that for a minute). It's Christianity as a business. It'sthe excess of the Roman Catholic Church all over again, except hidden by modern trappings. I live in Sydney - I've met many people who have come out of it and are still in it. It's a false church, and I have no qualms saying it. I mean, they have Joyce Meyer speak at their conferences.
 

Mecha

Member
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean? My point isn't that there's something inherently wrong with contemporary music. Something isn't inherently better because it's 400 years old and the other thing is 4 years old. That's an appeal to tradition that the Reformation was trying to eradicate from the church.

My point was more often than not, contemporary worship music isn't written as something to be participated in by a congregation of people who may or may not be able to sing or play instruments. It's written to be performed by the church band while the congregation awkwardly looks on or gets involved through a purely emotional connection (i.e. the adult equivalent of that gif from Jesus Camp where the baby is waving his hand around). The music team at modern churches has now become more important than the pastor and the sermon. The preaching of the Word is constantly pushed into the background whilst the music becomes more and more prominent.

The modern church sees it's entire mission as trying to draw in the biggest crowd as possible. Mega churches are the order of the day. Every church needs as many programs as possible (along with a great house band!) in order to draw in the crowds, because what's better proof that God is blessing us than if we've got 500 people in our Sunday service?

The problem is, none of that is scriptural and is only doing harm to the spreading of the Gospel.

As for Hillsong, they absolutely typify this movement, mixed in with a healthy dose of prosperity teaching (Brian Houston's salary is $300,000. Think about that for a minute). It's Christianity as a business. It'sthe excess of the Roman Catholic Church all over again, except hidden by modern trappings. I live in Sydney - I've met many people who have come out of it and are still in it. It's a false church, and I have no qualms saying it. I mean, they have Joyce Meyer speak at their conferences.

I have gone to this one church a few times during Christmas eve and the service is similar to what you described. The band sings like 7+ songs with a sentence or two about a scripture in between the songs every now and then. It feels more like a poor concert than a church service.
 

Chaplain

Member
A new episode of Unbelievable? has been uploaded:

Unbelievable? Paula Gooder answers your Bible Questions
Saturday 14th February 2015 - 02:30 pm


New Testament scholar, author and speaker Paula Gooder joins Justin to tackle a range of questions sent in by listeners. The Old Covenant, eyewitness testimony, how the Gospels were written and much more is covered.

Justin also airs the audio of his “Dear Stephen…” response video to Stephen Fry… available here

Get the MP3

Dr Paula Gooder is a writer and lecturer in Biblical Studies. Her research areas include the writings of Paul the Apostle (with a particular focus on 2 Corinthians), New Testament Interpretation and the development of Ministry in the New Testament Period but her passion is to ignite people's enthusiasm for reading the Bible today.

She is the Theologian in Residence for the Bible Society and also holds a number of honorary positions such as Canon Theologian of Birmingham and Guildford Cathedrals, Lay Canon at Salisbury Cathedral, a Six preacher of Canterbury Cathedral, Vice president of the Bible Society, Visiting lecturer at King's College, London, and Associate lecturer both at St Mellitus College, London and at trinity College, Bristol. She is a Reader in the Church of England and a member of General Synod.
 
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean? My point isn't that there's something inherently wrong with contemporary music. Something isn't inherently better because it's 400 years old and the other thing is 4 years old. That's an appeal to tradition that the Reformation was trying to eradicate from the church.

My point was more often than not, contemporary worship music isn't written as something to be participated in by a congregation of people who may or may not be able to sing or play instruments. It's written to be performed by the church band while the congregation awkwardly looks on or gets involved through a purely emotional connection (i.e. the adult equivalent of that gif from Jesus Camp where the baby is waving his hand around). The music team at modern churches has now become more important than the pastor and the sermon. The preaching of the Word is constantly pushed into the background whilst the music becomes more and more prominent.

The modern church sees it's entire mission as trying to draw in the biggest crowd as possible. Mega churches are the order of the day. Every church needs as many programs as possible (along with a great house band!) in order to draw in the crowds, because what's better proof that God is blessing us than if we've got 500 people in our Sunday service?

The problem is, none of that is scriptural and is only doing harm to the spreading of the Gospel.

As for Hillsong, they absolutely typify this movement, mixed in with a healthy dose of prosperity teaching (Brian Houston's salary is $300,000. Think about that for a minute). It's Christianity as a business. It'sthe excess of the Roman Catholic Church all over again, except hidden by modern trappings. I live in Sydney - I've met many people who have come out of it and are still in it. It's a false church, and I have no qualms saying it. I mean, they have Joyce Meyer speak at their conferences.

Ah I misunderstood then. I agree that the rise of the mega church, especially in America(there's only so much of Joel Osteen/TD Jakes one can listen to) really commoditized the spirituality and importance of the Good Book by conflating it with a flashy presentation, a suit, and a white smile.

But I also appreciate music acts, like the example I gave of Kanye West, who are not afraid of their religion and do not need to proclaim Jesus as a commodity but can sing about Christianity. By most people's account, they would not allow him to be treated as "good Christian music" and I have a problem with that.
 
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