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[Taco_Human]

Straight up murder, holy shit. Another one to the list.

This is bullshit. Illegal or not, what he did doesn't deserve to be killed for.

 

[Squalor]

That whole no obligation bullshit needs to stop being passed around. You're fucking wrong. If a cop tells you to exit your vehicle it's a lawful order. Just do it. Don't give a cop a reason to escalate the situation.

After checking up on it, you're correct on one account. I apologize. You must exit. You still have the right to ask if you're being detained and why.

It doesn't matter that he was right.

The murderer never asked the man to leave the car. He told him to take his seatbelt off, and then he opened his door for him.

Never. He never said "Get out the car." Coins's argument is bullshit.

They've probably never even watched the videos.

 

[Log4Girlz]

BUT.... again there was zero injustice going on until cop took it to 100 and shot the guy. The guy was in the wrong. Driving without ID, refusing to open the door on a direct order. Those things are actually illegal. That doesn't mean the cop should have shot him. The cop murdered him. The cop had no right to shoot him. But the injustice happened in this case at the moment of shooting.



Cop murdered dude. Not apologizing for him.

Damn Jackson. You've shown me the light. If this idiot only did what the officer said, he may not have been murdered maybe. Thank you for this insight. Boy, black people have like, no reason to fear the police if they just comply with them to lower their chances of being slaughtered in cold blood.

 

[blankempathy]

On that point we do agree. So why care about why he didn't comply? He probably would have murdered him anyway and he was right to panic.

Really? Do you have proof that the cop was just waiting to kill him? The suspect was acting fishy. He couldn't produce a license which could mean a range of things ranging from a suspended license to so on. Did you expect him to just say "No license? no problem have a good day! oh and I totally trust you'll have that plate fixed next time." The cop absolutely fucked up but to blame it on blood lust is ridiculous.

 

[Jackson]

Why are you even defending the person you say is a murdering? Why are you defending a murder?

Not defending. Stating facts.

 

[foodtaster]

Not defending. Stating facts.

Facts that are irrelevant, unless you those things are justification. If you do, ok, then we can discuss that. If you do not think they are justification, then they are irrelevant.

 

[Slayven]

they are told all the time "today is the day you might not make it home to your wife and kids" and it's stupid.

and they say being a cop is the most dangerous job in the USA. But when they count deaths they include nonviolent shit like heart attack and diabetes. And even then the numbers aren't there.

 

[DrForester]

And you don't see a problem with that, we have to treat those that "protect and serve" like a rabid animal?

Someone in the Sandra Bland thread compared cops to wild, feral animals, and should be treated as such. You never know if they're nice, or rabid. It's kind of sad just how true that comparison is.

they are told all the time "today is the day you might not make it home to your wife and kids" and it's stupid.

Well, I think part of that has to due with the public perception. It seems like people are so concerned about the safety of Police Officers, that it's better to have some dead innocents than a dead cop.

 

[Volimar]

Any protests tonight?

These university pigs should be riding a fucking Segway with a walkee talkee.

No they really shouldn't.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

That whole no obligation bullshit needs to stop being passed around. You're fucking wrong. If a cop tells you to exit your vehicle it's a lawful order. Just do it. Don't give a cop a reason to escalate the situation.

This type of bullshit needs to stop. We have countless examples of police brutality or otherwise that happen regardless of what the victim does.

 

[Nafai1123]

Not defending. Stating facts.

Claiming the cop ordered him out of the car is not a fact. Watch the video.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

That goes without saying...

However, speaking generally - even if you are not legally obliged - a cop telling you to get out of the car doesn't seem unreasonable. Nothing about this incident or any other incident I have seen on footage justified a weapon being undrawn. But were we to analyse some of these videos and try to pinpoint moments that led up to the flashpoint, behaviour that can be construed as antagonistic or passive aggressive should be at least acknowledged.

Any cop can be a potential trigger happy, hot head. You can't give them any reason to get irritated, especially as a black man. If they tell you to get out of the car, or put out a cigarette, you respond with: "Yes, sir". Don't give them a reason.

It doesn't matter.

That's what I'm trying to say. Yes, in a "perfect" world, there would be full compliance to these psychopaths we hire to "protect" us so that we don't have to worry about being murdered by them. In an actual perfect world, we wouldn't be employing these people, and there would be strict guidelines about the use of force, and there'd be serious consequences for breaking those. There also wouldn't be union protection.

However, that's not at issue here.

His compliance or non-compliance is not a factor in his murder, and people who continue to throw around this talking point are changing the conversation we should be having. I won't speak to everyone's intent here in doing this, but in other places, including our AMAZINGLY biased media, that's being done to shift the focus off police and back on the victim.

...Victim blaming.

He was murdered. That's it. Nobody needs to hear about how he should have complied. It's not relevant, especially considering COMPLIANCE CAN ALSO GET YOU SHOT.

Edit:

What Mass One said.

 

[Mass One]

That goes without saying...

However, speaking generally - even if you are not legally obliged - a cop telling you to get out of the car doesn't seem unreasonable. Nothing about this incident or any other incident I have seen on footage justified a weapon being undrawn. But were we to analyse some of these videos and try to pinpoint moments that led up to the flashpoint, behaviour that can be construed as antagonistic or passive aggressive should be at least acknowledged.

Any cop can be a potential trigger happy, hot head. You can't give them any reason to get irritated, especially as a black man. If they tell you to get out of the car, or put out a cigarette, you respond with: "Yes, sir". Don't give them a reason.

A couple things I find weird about your statement. 1st he never asked the guy to get out. So he's shit cop. 2nd your admitting that inherently as a black person your a second class human. Your asking a whole ethnicity to behave in a way as to not be at fault for being killed. Don't you think that's incredible fucked. Like he's black, he should have know to be extraordinary courteous and be aware of all local laws so he won't have a reason to be pulled over.

 

[Squalor]

You keep saying "statistics," but you haven't actually sited one stat or study.

 

[Jackson]

Facts that are irrelevant, unless you those things are justification. If you do, ok, then we can discuss that. If you do not think they are justification, then they are irrelevant.

They aren't irrelevant, you said injustice happened before the shooting. I said that's not correct.

 

[riotous]

Some things that wouldn't exist of people just complied to government/police abuse:
1. Women's suffrage
2. The end of slavery
3. Gay marriage


The very fabric and creation of this very country hinges on a lack of compliance/tolerance for government abuse. People need to go read a book.

So are you saying it's important to have the right not to show your driver's license or get out of cars when cops ask you too?

You are drawing ridiculous parallels here.

The issue of Police on minority violence in general can be paralleled to those issues, but none of those issues relate well to "non compliance with basic Police interactions."

I don't know how anyone can suggest general non-compliance is a good solution to the problem. It's dangerous as hell.

 

[Squalor]

That's what I'm trying to say. Yes, in a "perfect" world, there would be full compliance to these psychopaths we hire to "protect" us so that we don't have to worry about being murdered by them.

In a perfect world, cops wouldn't exist because there would be no need for them to protect us from the nonexistent criminals and other cops, not that they do the latter much anyway.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Really? Do you have proof that the cop was just waiting to kill him? The suspect was acting fishy. He couldn't produce a license which could mean a range of things ranging from a suspended license to so on. The cop absolutely fucked up but to blame it on blood lust is ridiculous.

Blaming an obvious, indefensible murder on blood lust is ridiculous. Really Log4Girlz? Really? You are what's wrong with this country Log, not the police. None of the police are blood thirsty. Killing a man in cold blood for an incredibly minor infraction surely could never be done in cold blood. What proof do you have he would have killed anyway? Are you really not giving the benefit of the doubt to this officer? What is wrong with you Log4Girlz.

Has anyone considered if the cop was just having an off day? Why didn't this black behemoth just comply? Its baffling? I'm not saying the officer wasn't a murderer, no siree bob. But what was this black man thinking? He had nothing to fear. Certainly shouldn't have feared being murdered.

Anyone? Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[Slayven]

You keep saying "statistics," but you haven't actually sited one stat or study.

And facts too, for some bringing them up a lot he isn't posting very many.

 

[old manatee]

Some things that wouldn't exist of people just complied to government/police abuse:
1. Women's suffrage
2. The end of slavery
3. Gay marriage


The very fabric and creation of this very country hinges on a lack of compliance/tolerance for government abuse. People need to go read a book.

4. N.W.A.'s Straight Outta Compton

 

[NickFire]

BUT.... again there was zero injustice going on until cop took it to 100 and shot the guy. The guy was in the wrong. Driving without ID, refusing to open the door on a direct order. Those things are actually illegal. That doesn't mean the cop should have shot him. The cop murdered him. The cop had no right to shoot him. But the injustice happened in this case at the moment of shooting.



Cop murdered dude. Not apologizing for him.

Anyone who suggests you are more likely to die, statistically, by complying than you are by resisting is probably too caught up in the emotion of this situation and similar others to think straight, or simply unable to think logically for one reason to another. You are 100% correct that compliance is the safer choice in the vast majority of these cases.

If you were wrong, then the US would not be leading the world in its incarceration rate.

 

[foodtaster]

So are you saying it's important to have the right not to show your driver's license or get out of cars when cops ask you too?

You are drawing ridiculous parallels here.

The issue of Police on minority violence in general can be paralleled to those issues, but none of those issues relate well to "non compliance with basic Police interactions."

I don't know how anyone can suggest general non-compliance is a good solution to the problem. It's dangerous as hell.

I wasn't comparing it to this situation, I was comparing it to this mentality that people should obey even if they feel that they are being wronged, because reasons. It's one thing to feel wronged, it's another to feel like you've done something wrong. There's no good way to quantify which is which, but my point is that blind compliance isn't always the best thing to do.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

In a perfect world, cops wouldn't exist because there would be no need for them to protect us from the nonexistent criminals and other cops, not that they do the latter much anyway.

Yeah.

 

[blankempathy]

Claiming the cop ordered him out of the car is not a fact. Watch the video.

Thats the route it was going. " go ahead and take your seat belt off for me". while trying to open the door pretty much means i'm going to tell you to step out of your vehicle. Thats when the driver grabs the door to keep it shut and from there on it escalates. Lets not act like the driver wasn't acting suspicious. Didn't mean he deserved to die.

 

[Toxi]

they are told all the time "today is the day you might not make it home to your wife and kids" and it's stupid.

It's especially strange when the police officers are at less risk than other occupations like construction.

and they say being a cop is the most dangerous job in the USA. But when they count deaths they include nonviolent shit like heart attack and diabetes. And even then the numbers aren't there.

It's nowhere near the most dangerous job in the USA.

Also, fishers have an obscenely high rate of fatal injury in their line of work. Like Jesus, you're nearly ten times more likely to die in fishing than you are in law enforcement.

 

[pigeon]

Strange since you mocked someone over the topic and made strong arguments that it can't be proven. Actually you claimed nobody can have evidence.

And it's still true! The fact that I have a personal belief doesn't change the question of whether there is, or can be, statistical proof.

How about 25-50 million traffic tickets being given out a year? That represents 10's of millions of instances of compliance where nobody is being harmed. It would take 10's of millions of instances of non-compliance leading to harm to prove that it wasn't safer to comply.

I well understand now how you got your tag.

Evidence of an interaction where a person complies with the police and is not killed does not constitute proof that compliance is less likely to get you killed. Correlation/causation, etc.

 

[x-Lundz-x]

The cop does not ask him to exit the vehicle at any point in time. He tries to open the door, arguably without any reason for search or seizure, which could be considered a violation of the 4th amendment.

Guy has open container, no license plate, and no drivers license on him. And you are saying the cop has no reason to be suspicious? Come on man.

He knew he was about to get busted and got combative with the cop and then started his car. You don't start your fucking car when you are in a traffic stop with the police. That is clearly a sign that you are thinking about running.

Watching that video it's hard to tell exactly took place. To me it looks like the cop reaches for the keys because he knows the guy is about to gun it and tries to take his gun out and it went off. At the point of the gun going off the camera is going crazy so it's hard to say for certain if something happens and the gun went off or if he just pulled the trigger on purpose. This is most assuredly not a case of clear cut murder. Thankfully we have a justice system that can go through evidence and analyze things like this and bring the truth out.

If the cop straight up murdered him then he will be put away, but to me it doesn't look as clear cut as that.

 

[Jackson]

Anyone who suggests you are more likely to die, statistically, by complying than you are by resisting is probably too caught up in the emotion of this situation and similar others to think straight, or simply unable to think logically for one reason to another. You are 100% correct that compliance is the safer choice in the vast majority of these cases.

If you were wrong, then the US would not be leading the world in its incarceration rate.

Correct.

 

[foodtaster]

Thats the route it was going. " go ahead and take your seat belt off for me". while trying to open the door pretty much means i'm going to tell you to step out of your vehicle. Thats when the driver grabs the door to keep it shut and from there on it escalates. Lets not act like the driver wasn't acting suspicious. Didn't mean he deserved to die.

"Let's not act like that girl wasn't dressed like she wanted it." "Didn't mean she deserved to be raped."

 

[old manatee]

noncompliance = suicide by cop

compliance = 50% chance suicide by cop, 50% chance to plead guilty for a reduced sentence.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Thats the route it was going. " go ahead and take your seat belt off for me". while trying to open the door pretty much means i'm going to tell you to step out of your vehicle. Thats when the driver grabs the door to keep it shut and from there on it escalates. Lets not act like the driver wasn't acting suspicious. Didn't mean he deserved to die.

Having a reaction to an officer opening your door and reaching toward you without warning is "acting suspicious" now?

 

[riotous]

I wasn't comparing it to this situation, I was comparing it to this mentality that people should obey even if they feel that they are being wronged, because reasons.

It's not just "reasons."

It's actually illegal in general, even if the cop is wronging you. And as witnessed in this and many videos, all too often leads to violence.

I believe it's quite probable the guy in the video was profiled; quite possible if he weren't a black guy the cop might have never pulled him over. Quite probable that the cop also had his weapon drawn because he was black, etc.

But not complying is fucking dangerous as hell, not to mention helps feed in to the gross mentality so many cops and the public have about minorities and crime.

 

[foodtaster]

They aren't irrelevant, you said injustice happened before the shooting. I said that's not correct.

I believe it is an injustice for a cop to pull their gun out on you before they shoot you when you've done nothing wrong, which is clearly what happen, given he was shot. So yes, I believe there was injustice for him to have even pulled his gun out on him. Everything else is irrelevant unless you believe those "facts" justify the pulling of the gun, which lead to the murder of an unharmed civilian.

It's not just "reasons."

It's actually illegal in general, even if the cop is wronging you. And as witnessed in this and many videos, all too often leads to violence.

I believe it's quite probable the guy in the video was profiled; quite possible if he weren't a black guy the cop might have never pulled him over. Quite probable that the cop also had his weapon drawn because he was black, etc.

But not complying is fucking dangerous as hell, not to mention helps feed in to the gross mentality so many cops and the public have about minorities and crime.

Slavery was also illegal, as was women's right to vote, and gay marriage. Not complying is dangerous, yes, I do not disagree. But when large groups comply to injustice they only perpetutate their suffering, hence civil disobedience, and hence the very founding of this country.

 

[Nafai1123]

Thats the route it was going. " go ahead and take your seat belt off for me". while trying to open the door pretty much means i'm going to tell you to step out of your vehicle. Thats when the driver grabs the door to keep it shut and from there on it escalates. Lets not act like the driver wasn't acting suspicious. Didn't mean he deserved to die.

Last I checked cops aren't supposed to just open your car door. They are supposed to ask you to get out of the vehicle.

 

[Enron]

And these cop motherfuckers were reluctant to release the video. Fuck 'em all.

"these cop motherfuckers" were reluctant to release the video because they didn't want to deal with a bunch of shit ahead of an indictment, and didn't want to make the prosecution's job that much more difficult. They did everyone a favor.

 

[MHWilliams]

How about 25-50 million traffic tickets being given out a year? That represents 10's of millions of instances of compliance where nobody is being harmed. It would take 10's of millions of instances of non-compliance leading to harm to prove that it wasn't safer to comply.

I agree with part of what you're saying, but disagree with the bolded. We have no clue of the compliance or overall situation in the 25-50 million traffic tickets handed out. It entirely possible that many were handed out because of non-compliance. Or compliance did not improve or harm those situations.

The point is compliance may increase your odds of survival, but you don't know. It's a toss up. Because... people.

We have much larger problems, where non-compliance or compliance paired with derision can end in death. Law enforcement is theoretically there to protect the citizens, but as it stands, they are more worried with protecting themselves first and foremost. This extends to situations where the officer was indeed in the wrong, like this one. Situations where fellow officers seek to protect those who have done wrong, rather than find justice for those citizens that have been wronged.

Even beyond that, the system allows that if you feel an order is illegal, you have little restitution in the matter. Many of the officers involved in similar incidents have past crimes under their belts, yet were still allowed to serve, many times by simply switching jurisdiction. It is a broken system and depending on your situation, you may fear compliance can end in death. Judging from some incidents, you would be absolutely right to believe that.

I wouldn't make the same choice, but the focus here is the officer's incorrect actions. That situation did not justify murder.

 

[Xcellere]

I remember you victim blaming in past race-related threads. Mind showing me where in the video there was an open alcohol container? And fleeing a traffic stop =/= pulling a gun out and holding it to the motorist's head, let alone pulling the trigger. Your post is quite baffling.

Guy has open container, no license plate, and no drivers license on him. And you are saying the cop has no reason to be suspicious? Come on man.

He knew he was about to get busted and got combative with the cop and then started his car. You don't start your fucking car when you are in a traffic stop with the police. That is clearly a sign that you are thinking about running.

Watching that video it's hard to tell exactly took place. To me it looks like the cop reaches for the keys because he knows the guy is about to gun it and tries to take his gun out and it went off. At the point of the gun going off the camera is going crazy so it's hard to say for certain if something happens and the gun went off or if he just pulled the trigger on purpose. This is most assuredly not a case of clear cut murder. Thankfully we have a justice system that can go through evidence and analyze things like this and bring the truth out.

If the cop straight up murdered him then he will be put away, but to me it doesn't look as clear cut as that.

 

[Slayven]

Guy has open container, no license plate, and no drivers license on him. And you are saying the cop has no reason to be suspicious? Come on man.

He knew he was about to get busted and got combative with the cop and then started his car. You don't start your fucking car when you are in a traffic stop with the police. That is clearly a sign that you are thinking about running.

Watching that video it's hard to tell exactly took place. To me it looks like the cop reaches for the keys because he knows the guy is about to gun it and tries to take his gun out and it went off. At the point of the gun going off the camera is going crazy so it's hard to say for certain if something happens and the gun went off or if he just pulled the trigger on purpose. This is most assuredly not a case of clear cut murder. Thankfully we have a justice system that can go through evidence and analyze things like this and bring the truth out.

If the cop straight up murdered him then he will be put away, but to me it doesn't look as clear cut as that.

Then the police lied about what happened

 

[Afrocious]

Welp, I'm done dealing with the victim blaming in this thread. Gotta continue being a black and crossing my fingers that a white person and/or cop doesn't feel threatened by my existence. We all know how that can turn out.

 

[blankempathy]

Having a reaction to an officer opening your door and reaching for without warning is "acting suspicious" now?

Not producing a license is strange don't you agree? He also gave him plenty of opportunities to look for it.

 

[TAJ]

This has nothing to do with police given statistics. We're talking about what we see in the media.

The amount of police shootings where a suspect is handcuffed and lying down and then shot vs the amount of suspects not complying and shot is less.

Small sample size.

 

[Velcro Fly]

are people really trying to justify this by saying he might have been in the process of ordering him out of the car? because it looks like he blew a hole in the dude before he would have even had a chance to get out of his car

 

[Slayven]

"these cop motherfuckers" were reluctant to release the video because they didn't want to deal with a bunch of shit ahead of an indictment, and didn't want to make the prosecution's job that much more difficult. They did everyone a favor.

Bwahahahahahaha

they didn't want to release because they knew one of their own fucked

 

[DrForester]

Guy has open container, no license plate, and no drivers license on him. And you are saying the cop has no reason to be suspicious? Come on man.

He knew he was about to get busted and got combative with the cop and then started his car. You don't start your fucking car when you are in a traffic stop with the police. That is clearly a sign that you are thinking about running.

Watching that video it's hard to tell exactly took place. To me it looks like the cop reaches for the keys because he knows the guy is about to gun it and tries to take his gun out and it went off. At the point of the gun going off the camera is going crazy so it's hard to say for certain if something happens and the gun went off or if he just pulled the trigger on purpose. This is most assuredly not a case of clear cut murder. Thankfully we have a justice system that can go through evidence and analyze things like this and bring the truth out.

If the cop straight up murdered him then he will be put away, but to me it doesn't look as clear cut as that.

The guy was about to flee, I can agree with that. He was acting suspicious, I can agree with that. It does not appear that he had an open container though. The bottle he handed the officer appears to be full and sealed, and unless I missed something, the officer never stated that he smelled alcohol or thought the man was drunk. I think it's also safe to assume that if he was drunk, we'd know by now as Blood Alcohol tests were no doubt performed on his body.

That all being said, he was not acting in a way that warranted the officer escalating the situation by pulling out his gun. And what fucking moron dives into a car that they think is about to speed off? This officer had the guys plates, and even if he thought the vehicle was stolen, he had the guys face clearly on his body camera for identification. If he had been trained to use his head, and not automatically go for the gun because a guy didn't have an ID, he would have just let the guy go.

Now certainly there are reasons that could justify him using his gun. If the guy was drunk, he poses an immediate threat to others. If he was armed, he would pose an immediate threat to others.

This guy did no pose a threat. The video makes it clear that he did not pose a threat. Yes he was acting suspiciously, but he showed no signs of violent intention.

 

[Toxi]

Guy has open container, no license plate, and no drivers license on him. And you are saying the cop has no reason to be suspicious? Come on man.

He knew he was about to get busted and got combative with the cop and then started his car. You don't start your fucking car when you are in a traffic stop with the police. That is clearly a sign that you are thinking about running.

Watching that video it's hard to tell exactly took place. To me it looks like the cop reaches for the keys because he knows the guy is about to gun it and tries to take his gun out and it went off. At the point of the gun going off the camera is going crazy so it's hard to say for certain if something happens and the gun went off or if he just pulled the trigger on purpose. This is most assuredly not a case of clear cut murder. Thankfully we have a justice system that can go through evidence and analyze things like this and bring the truth out.

If the cop straight up murdered him then he will be put away, but to me it doesn't look as clear cut as that.

I can't believe this is a serious argument.

 

[Enron]

Bwahahahahahaha

they didn't want to release because they knew one of their own fucked

Bwahahahahaahahahahahahaah uh no, releasing it ahead of the indictment just complicates things for the side actually trying to charge and prosecute this guy.

 

[Hazmat]

we already know this trick, news:

the flag is such a nice touch.

This is simple and pretty powerful.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

are people really trying to justify this by saying he might have been in the process of ordering him out of the car? because it looks like he blew a hole in the dude before he would have even had a chance to get out of his car

It's really morbidly comical how he shot the guy and then started screaming about the car dragging him.

 

[DrForester]

So has the cop been arrested yet? News said there's a warrant out for him. Did he turn himself in? Did we get a good perp walk out of him?

 

[riotous]

Evidence of an interaction where a person complies with the police and is not killed does not constitute proof that compliance is less likely to get you killed. Correlation/causation, etc.

I didn't say it proved it.

It's evidence that shows it is likely true; you are selectively quoting and ignoring that my sentence right before that stated you claimed you couldn't "Show any evidence" of it.

I then stated in my next sentence what it would take for proof.

You can piss off if this is how this conversation is going to go. Suggesting it isn't safer to comply is dangerous as hell. I get that people are emotional and that the topic isn't something to necessarily bring up in this thread (note: I didn't bring it up), but mocking someone for claiming it's safer to comply? Ridiculous and dangerous.