I have.
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Circumcision.. What do Evolutionary Biologists/Naturalists/Darwinists think?
- Thread starter Polioliolio
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I have.
Lonewulfeus
Member
Duh cut the gay off.
TickleMeElbow
Member
I bet James Bond wasn't circumcised.
Think about that before you go through with it.
Think about that before you go through with it.
Wanna play this game ?
Please, reply to this when you can.
Let's try to defend children genital mutilation without the report you quoted a bunch of times, which appear not to be as truthful as you might want it to be.
My husband and I opted against circumcising our son, for similar reasons that you referenced OP: We just didn't have a strong reason to do it and, in the absence of significant benefits, it seemed best to leave it be. But it is such a hard decision to make and I still worry about whether we've set him up to be judged, later in life, for being uncircumcised.
I selfishly hope circumcision becomes less common in the U.S., so I don't have to worry about that.
I selfishly hope circumcision becomes less common in the U.S., so I don't have to worry about that.
I have as well.
perfectchaos007
Member
Basically this. uncut is so rare in the US, that it would freak out an American woman. Its not normalized here. If you are in Europe and hope to hook up with a Euro woman its no big deal of course.
Judged by who? I think it is declining in the US as well, just not as quickly as the test of the world
Everyone is fine with how they are besides the rare medical condition, neither circumcised nor uncircumcised guys are going to have an issue with it, but it's the same for people who had accidents as very small kids, if a baby loses his or her small toe out of some accident he or she won't find a problem with their feet later in life since it always has been like that. That isn't really a good argument. The point is why even do it in the first place? That's where the argument lies.
If we remove the religious reasons and the aesthetic reasons there is little compelling evidence to remove a part of the body. Studies cited have already shown babies do feel pain and it does affect their development, from an evolutionary standpoint there is no real argument pro circumcision that I know of, the foreskin is not like the appendix, and even then no medical professional would ever remove the appendix of anyone just because. The only scientific research has been the one study in Africa about HIV reduced​ risk, that first, isn't that big of a reduction, second, it has been contested over and over and no one has followed up trying to do the same study again and/or elsewhere. What we do know is that the US has bigger STI rates than Europe where circumcision is rare, and unless sexual activity is widely different it seems that at least in the developed world it's simply not an important factor.
finalflame
Member
The American Academy of Pediatrics seems to think otherwise (reposting link for visibility, and because the "no real benefits" posts are getting annoying):
In a task force study citing over 200 studies related to male circumcision.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/3/e756
Skellig Gra
Member
As a parent I find the whole concept absurd. So I was dismissing the argument. I'm not chopping off a piece of my sons body. I firmly believe in evolution. If there was no use for it we wouldn't have foreskin.
Mostly by future love interests. Also, I'd hate it if he felt different or abnormal for being uncircumcised, so I'm glad to hear it's declining in the U.S.
Again, your report doesn't have much credibility:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/early/2013/03/12/peds.2012-2896.full.pdf
You repost your link for visibility, I'll repost mine everytime you do that without acknowledging mine as well.
Stop spreading your biased report and claim it as universal truth, it's pretty damn clear it's not as strong an argument as you might think.
no, that's just cutting off the offending part. there's ways to treat it that don't involve chopping off parts of your penis.
finalflame
Member
So, after reading this, it's essentially a weakly cited commentary by European physicians in an attempt to undermine the validity of the opinion of American pediatricians? Seems like a matter of choice here, then. Go with whatever your culture has raised you to believe/do.
Where's the citation for this "growing consensus"? I see none, so basically, they are talking out of their asses on the final statement. Neato.
yeah, it should be below 50% now, last numbers from 2010 had it around 55%, down from 63% in 2001.
oh and in the western states it's below 30%.
My parents had me circumcised when I was around a week old or something. I don't have any problem with it. Even though it seems to still be relatively popular in the states, I'd probably choose not to have it done to my son if I had one. They could choose to have it done later if they wish.
Ploid 3.0
Member
Reminds me of that abandoned baby girl that was found covered in ants or something. I wonder how many people would think, "thank goodness she was a baby, that would be too much for a older person."
I guess I didn't do my research properly. Lol but yea I see it now..this is my life. Retracting is not comfortable either way for me. If I can take care of the frenulum..maybe I don't need the full circumcision, we'll see.
Yea I'm definitely weighing my options right now..
Thanks GAF. Haha
PHOENIXZERO
Member
I'm not pro-circumcision or anything but do you have a source for that stat that isn't from Dan Bollinger flawed, non-peer reviewed study?
finalflame
Member
They don't, as I've already asked and they failed to produce sources. Go figure! Seems the anti-circumcision crowd is big on making claims without citing sources, much like the "growing consensus" above.
No it's not.
You quoted your report like it's the "right way" to think about this issue because one pediatric organization did an article on it.
I'm showing you multiple other pediatric organizations, who are rather neutral culturally to circumcision, contrary to the american one who's very deeply involved with it, saying this report was poorly done and very questionnable.
You choose to listen to what suits your belief, and that's a pretty damn damaging way of going about things in general.
Leave babies' genitalia out of this pretty poor way of finding truths please.
What benefits are there to circumcision in the western society ?
Just tell me what you think those are, in your own opinion.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
I'll never understand why you lot across the pond have such a self loathing for your penises you feel the need to chop a bit of it off XD. Thing works fine as it is, leave it be. It's really strange how it's considered normal to just hack a piece of your body off for the sheer sake of it.
Stallion Dan
Member
Sue the hospital that done it, doesn't matter if had parents consent, you can do that.
Why are American women so freaked out about it? The women in europe doesn't seem to have problems with circumsized dicks even though they are accustomed to uncut dicks. A lot women here have been with a circumsized man and I've never heard anyone freaking out about it. Just weird.
BlitzEngineer
Member
Who the fuck wants to sleep with a chick who would refuse you on the basis of your flaccid penis looking weird to her? Your son dodged a fucking bullet if that ever happens to him, for real. That chick has issues.
It's like, if I decided at the last second I didn't want to sleep with a girl because her labia were too big. She would think I was a massive fucking asshole, and so would anybody else who heard about it.
As far as feeling different or abnormal: in my experience, this is a good thing. I mean, maybe my opinion is jilted since I was often an outsider in my teenage years, but although it felt crappy back then I feel now that it taught me some great lessons about how to identify shitty people. Someone ostracizes people who are different than them, and I know instantly I have no reason to give a shit what that person thinks about anything, and can tell them to fuck off at the soonest opportunity. If I had gone through life without ever feeling different I probably would have ended up just like all those other assholes who stumble through life never learning the skill of sympathy.
That growing consensus you're doing your damn hardest to keep out of yourself is reflected in the rates of circumcision declining in the US for over 3 decades now it seems like.
I can source with several news website but it's pretty easy to find.
Why are people saying North America when it is just the US. In Canada, the rate is down to 32% and dropping every year. Unheard of in Mexico pretty much as well. But the US does it because some girls may think its gross lol or they don't an unnatural looking dick, when cutting off a piece if your dick is the most unnatural thing in the world. American porn especially has exacerbated this. And those who say they feel no effects. How much do you enioy sex with condoms? Curious.
But you can be sure that girls in Canada definitely see more uncut dicks than cut one ones.
njean777
Member
Personally I would circumsize my boy. That is just me though.
I have had es sex both with and without a condom and both feel fine. Would rather have it without any day of the week, but that is my preference.
I have had es sex both with and without a condom and both feel fine. Would rather have it without any day of the week, but that is my preference.
By the way, is that something you disagree on, the quote below from the report I linked.
It's no different to the way people relate to "outie" vaginas. Some people care a lot about labia size. Others don't. Plenty prefer big lips; but vaginoplasty is typically done to reduce lip size. Most people won't care at all, wherever they're from.
Perfectly fine lol. Like what?
Mammoth Jones
Member
Absolutely not. I'm not doing it to my kid. I had it done to me and miss my foreskin. Would make jerking it 1000x times better.
As far as the hygiene argument it makes about as much sense as surgically removing my ass to make sure I don't let it get dirty from not washing it properly.
Proper bathing techniques make it a dumb fucking point. Teach your kid how to wash their junk.
As far as the hygiene argument it makes about as much sense as surgically removing my ass to make sure I don't let it get dirty from not washing it properly.
Proper bathing techniques make it a dumb fucking point. Teach your kid how to wash their junk.
finalflame
Member
Honestly, I think the benefits are slim in modern western society where we generally are not at a huge risk of contracting HIV due to other preventative methods. With that said, an objective look at studies conducted shows that it reduces the risk to some extent. The argument largely made in the commentary/response is that "well it's not enough to make up for not giving your son a choice", which can be a valid argument, but does not excuse saying "there are absolutely no benefits of getting circumcised", as it has been proven to reduce, to some degree, the likelihood of contracting HIV, genital warts and genital herpes.
Even if there are other, more effective methods available, it's still wrong to say there are absolutely no benefits. You can happily argue that the benefits do not outweigh the ethical dilemma of not giving your son a choice, but that argument doesn't appeal to me, personally, as I don't think that choice is morally loaded.
At the end of the day, it's up to the parents to decide what they want to do. Again, your parents, at that stage of your life, do have agency over you as a child. I see no significant reasons not to get your son circumcised, if you decide it's something you want. I personally don't like the way uncircumcised dicks look, that's just my preference, so I'm glad mine is circumcised. I've also never met a chick who said she'd be put off by my circumcised dick, but have met a couple who said they were not down with uncircumcised. Anecdotal, but a life experience I've had. It's probably true most chicks don't care, in the grand scheme of things.
Anyways, it probably just comes down to choice. I don't care which choice you make, as long as you don't ardently criticize mine.
Basketball
Member
hello most women
Wow, I had no idea it was dropping so much. I'm glad to hear that it's unlikely this will be an issue for him. I mean, even just having it 50/50 is enough to normalize being uncut.
Yeah, I agree. If you really care about someone, there's no way that's going to stand in the way. It's just easy to worry, I guess. This is probably the first irreversible decision parent's of boys make. Thanks for your response though, it helps! Now I can just focus on worrying about the other million things involved in raising a child.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Well even if they did isn't this a problem in itself? If we're pushing to a more progressive future, being judgemental about whether someone has not opted to have a piece of their body cut off should be on the list of things that need changing.
So inflicting pain on others is OK as long as the person doesn't remember it?
"It offers no benefits and is too painful and scary for adults - so let's do it to our baby."
finalflame
Member
Sure -- my parents within their legal right to make that decision when I was an infant, as they have agency over me. I don't really care, pain is temporary, and I'd rather have it be far in my past than something I have to deal with and remember for the rest of my adult life.
YMMV.
The reason circumcised penises are more very slightly more prone to STI's and STD's is becauss the skin is more sensitive and prone to microtears during sex that do not hurt and are not felt but might allow the infectious bacteria to enter. But this again comes back to safe sex and condom use. With a foreskin, there is almost always sensitivity and arousal with a condom or without. Feels near identical, while a lot of circumcised men I've heard from say they need to masturbate longer, would prefer sex without a condom so they can feel it easier because the sensitivity is massively declined throughout the years.
Proper bathing and shower techniques is simple. Soap your junk and clean it. If you are getting urinary tract infections, you are doing something horrendously wrong with bathing. My cousin had to get circumcision due to societal pressure and phimosis and regrets it. Only because he knows what it was like with his foreskin. He regrets the surgery as a first step now that there are non surgical options for phimosis. Surgeons push it because it is a way to make money and keep a hundred million+ a year elective surgery windfall alive. It is why they always pushback when insurers say they won't cover it anymore etc. Whatever. I think in a global world, and with demographic shift, you are already seeing the decline in the US. Outside of Jewish and Muslim communitiea, you will see it decline and continue. Look at South America, Asia and Europe.
Refusing your son's physical integrity isn't morally loaded ?
I'll continue to criticize the choice you take unless it's your own and remains your own. When you choose for your son on how his body should be, that's a big no-no and it should only be done when medical intervention is absolutely needed.
Not because you find cut penises to be more aesthetically pleasing.
I am in no position to choose anything on your body, and nobody but yourself only should be. Just think about that. The body of your son isn't your property or your own, he should be given the freedom to choose for himself as he's the only one who'll be living in it, his entire life.
I wish someone had the balls to stand out for my right to bodily integrity when I was a baby and couldn't on my own.
If I really wanted to be circumcised I could have done it later in life.
This "prevention of pain" is wrong (as it's been proven that babies experience pain the same way/intensity you do), and you trade freedom of choice over your own body in doing so. It's morally disgusting to me, that's all.
This is a twisted way of trying to rationalize having choice over your body taken away.
"YMMV" indeed.
Skellig Gra
Member
I'm curious, is there any circumcised guys here that feel like their body was violated and their right was taken away?
I am not one. I honestly don't view it as that serious. It's a parent's choice.
Geno Breaker
Banned
This thread really has a lot circumcision remorse lol
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