I'm sure they are good parents with honourable intentions, but just as I view the Islamist of a particular sect who believes he has divine warrant to saw off his daughter's clitoris, I do certainty believe both your parents and mine were subject to some pretty "fucked up" thought processes when they had our foreskins removed without our consent to please a mythical being.
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Circumcision.. What do Evolutionary Biologists/Naturalists/Darwinists think?
- Thread starter Polioliolio
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I'm sure they are good parents with honourable intentions, but just as I view the Islamist of a particular sect who believes he has divine warrant to saw off his daughter's clitoris, I do certainty believe both your parents and mine were subject to some pretty "fucked up" thought processes when they had our foreskins removed without our consent to please a mythical being.
Why are so many people so casual about involuntary genital mutilation? This isn't some decision you and your wife should have any right to make. Let the kid choose when he's old enough to think for himself.
17 Seconds
Banned
you're really losing it now. you're the one who made a dumb ass finger nail comparison.
17 Seconds
Banned
why do YOU care so much? where are all these traumatized guys who are scarred emotionally from their circumcisions? who are you fighting for?
Where do you draw the line at telling parents how to raise their kids?
Uh.. don't bleed them unless medical procedure dictates it.
Like, at the point where they start cutting bits off their kids for no reason?
It's not that hard.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Well OP, I don't think arguments from evolution will get you very far, but roughly it look like this.
The foreskin evolved to be the way it is. We don't know why, but it must have been something that gave a marginal advantage in surviving to have children. Probably not a female preference thing like the peacock's tail, more likely purely protective. If you're running naked around a forest it's probably a good idea to have the rather sensitive glans protected from being stung by a wasp or sucked on by leeches.
Ok, you can uncross your legs now.
That reason no longer applies in modern societies because pants exist. Well, mostly. You might prefer to have been uncircumcised if you ever catch your dick in a zipper.
(I lied about the uncrossing your legs part.)
None of this is relevant to the modern practice of infant circumcision, a practice which I oppose on the grounds that if you did it to a non-consenting adult you would get banged up in jail for wounding with intent, so why the hell should it be OK to do it to an infant?
The foreskin evolved to be the way it is. We don't know why, but it must have been something that gave a marginal advantage in surviving to have children. Probably not a female preference thing like the peacock's tail, more likely purely protective. If you're running naked around a forest it's probably a good idea to have the rather sensitive glans protected from being stung by a wasp or sucked on by leeches.
Ok, you can uncross your legs now.
That reason no longer applies in modern societies because pants exist. Well, mostly. You might prefer to have been uncircumcised if you ever catch your dick in a zipper.
(I lied about the uncrossing your legs part.)
None of this is relevant to the modern practice of infant circumcision, a practice which I oppose on the grounds that if you did it to a non-consenting adult you would get banged up in jail for wounding with intent, so why the hell should it be OK to do it to an infant?
Alcotholic
Banned
What are the benefits of circumcision? "No smegma and looks better" Do not count as benefits.
So earrings are fine?
17 Seconds
Banned
i love gaf
"stop MUTILATING these poor kids penises without their consent."
-eh, i'm glad i got it done, most people think it looks better, and i agree
"whooaaaa why do you care so much about other dudes' dicks?"
"stop MUTILATING these poor kids penises without their consent."
-eh, i'm glad i got it done, most people think it looks better, and i agree
"whooaaaa why do you care so much about other dudes' dicks?"
How on Earth did you get there?
Alcotholic
Banned
Haha, I guess it's nowhere near as painful, bad comparison on my part. I get your point though, the kid suffers for a bit. Either way seems pretty benign.
I don't think it's cool to pierce a baby's ears either. But if you do it, you can take the earrings out, and eventually, the hole will close up. Worse comes to worse, you can sew them back shut.
What if someone wanted to pierce their infant son's penis? How would you feel about that?
Let me know when we start removing parts of children's brains at birth.
Let me just ask if an adult forced a 6 years old against his will to have his ear peirced, or have his dick cut because tradition, how do you feel?
It seems extremely silly to me what is unacceptable to a society to force on a six year old is fine if he is just born.
Man, the pro circumcision crowd just can't contemplate that there might be people who would prefer to have had a choice in whether or not to keep their foreskin.
I'm one of those people who is pissed off over having been circumcised. I know plenty of other people who are also pissed off about it, as well as one or two who attempted to "grow" it back with some weight clip thing, but gave up in frustration after the practice became too disruptive. (you have to keep at it for years to very little effect.)
I draw the line at literally removing parts of their bodies for stupid religious reasons. How is this difficult to understand?
Ok, it's pretty clear that you're trolling at this point.
If you aren't. Dear christ.
I'm one of those people who is pissed off over having been circumcised. I know plenty of other people who are also pissed off about it, as well as one or two who attempted to "grow" it back with some weight clip thing, but gave up in frustration after the practice became too disruptive. (you have to keep at it for years to very little effect.)
I draw the line at literally removing parts of their bodies for stupid religious reasons. How is this difficult to understand?
Ok, it's pretty clear that you're trolling at this point.
If you aren't. Dear christ.
It's their son, up to them.
I wouldn't really think about it nor feel much. If I see the kid crying later from the pain I would feel sad though.
What if they wanted to cut off their infant son's earlobes? Or tattoo a large "TRUMP 2016" on their infant son's chest?
Are you anti-vax and for faith healing by any chance?
Thats cool, but maybe other people don't draw the line there and decided to circumcise their kid so I don't really want to be involved in that since it's their responsibility.
I assure you I'm not trolling.
Anti-vax is anti vaccine? That would be weird no?
What if they wanted to literally murder their child?
To put it in a more amenable way: Where do a parent's rights end and an individual child's rights begin, in your opinion?
Again, it's their kid I'm not sure how I have any say in that hypothetical.
You can say "Fuck, no" like a normal human
If murder of course that's abhorrent and absolutely morally bankrupt.
So you don't believe society should protect children from anything at all, and we should allow parents to do anything to their children they feel is reasonable? So far you've been okay with parents:
Cutting off their children's ears
Tattooing political messages on them
Piercing their dicks
You're either a troll or mentally unstable.
Yup, crazy hypocrisy.
Adult women shouldn't have to deal with men's expectations about shaving the hair on their genitals (something that grows back) while newborn boys apparentely have to get their dick operated on without their consent to appease dumb NA women who don't respect the natural human male anatomy.
You really should look up the word "empathy" in the dictionary, because your posts seem to indicate that your life is devoid of it.
edit - GAF letting me down in all sorts of ways today
Nostremitus
Member
After working in geriatrics, I will always suggest circumcision. Nothing worse than having to help men whose foreskin has grown almost closed...
plus.... smegma...
plus.... smegma...
Normal human? I guess I can do that but what do I accomplish here? If they are torturing their kid for amusement I'll call the police or something. I guess I can also tell people their child will suffer over the circumcision too, but a lot of people here are super religious or culturally it's what they do so even if I do that I'm not sure I would convince them.
curiouscharles
Member
i can't even imagine wanking without foreskin.. like seriously wtf.
OP i don't know why you're even asking this, it's very simple:
are you jewish?
if you answer yes - then circumcise.
otherwise, there's zero reason to do it, unless you want your son to suffer from a chaffed penis his whole life?
if your only reason to circumcise will only become relevant when you're at death's door... well i think that answers itself really.
also, smegma?
i wash my penis thank you.
also, never had a woman say anything about my uncut dick... if anything, only heard the opposite.
also personally think circumsized penises look painful.
OP i don't know why you're even asking this, it's very simple:
are you jewish?
if you answer yes - then circumcise.
otherwise, there's zero reason to do it, unless you want your son to suffer from a chaffed penis his whole life?
if your only reason to circumcise will only become relevant when you're at death's door... well i think that answers itself really.
also, smegma?
i wash my penis thank you.
also, never had a woman say anything about my uncut dick... if anything, only heard the opposite.
also personally think circumsized penises look painful.
I think the only conclusion you can draw OP is that you won't be a reasoned debate on this subject as there is too much emotion on both sides of the argument. It's a decision you'll have to reach by yourself.
FWIW, and I'm genuinely not attempting to sway you one way or the other, my son was recently circumcised and the whole procedure took less than 5 minutes and he was fully healed within a week.
I respect peoples' position that someone is entitled to choose whether or not a procedure is performed on them. That said, I really don't agree with this "mutilation" labelling. Dictionary definitions aside, people know full well what mental imagery is implied by choosing to use that kind of a word and it is clearly hyperbolic in this context.
This isn't a thing. It's no more true than saying all uncut penises have smegma. Don't be silly.
FWIW, and I'm genuinely not attempting to sway you one way or the other, my son was recently circumcised and the whole procedure took less than 5 minutes and he was fully healed within a week.
I respect peoples' position that someone is entitled to choose whether or not a procedure is performed on them. That said, I really don't agree with this "mutilation" labelling. Dictionary definitions aside, people know full well what mental imagery is implied by choosing to use that kind of a word and it is clearly hyperbolic in this context.
This isn't a thing. It's no more true than saying all uncut penises have smegma. Don't be silly.
So does the foreskin. It protects the penis and its surface nerves from outside matter and contact, and it lubricates and stimulates the penis during sex.
Neither the foreskin nor the fingernails are necessary to live or have sex, however, so his comparison holds up in that regard.
I'm sorry if I seem that way to you. I'll talk to people of the dangers of circumcision. I'm not sure I would do that to my own kid if have one.
It is correlated with lower risk of STI and lower risk of yeast/bacterial infections of the penis, and of course you don't have to deal with the risk of phimosis, but unless you have those problems, why preemptively remove it? I had a yeast infection last year due to immune problems. My derm just gave my some antimicrobial steroid creams and it resolved. There are usually non-invasive solutions to to trivial problems.
Circumcizing to preemptively avoid something like that could be to me like justifying preemptively removing the appendix at birth because it could explode one day and kill you.
I can't even imagine how that happens unless you are so old or suffer from dementia so you don't even cleanse or control your continence anymore. At which point, I don't justify circumcising myself to make my nurse's life easier in 60 years. Dealing with old women who don't bathe or control their continence is also difficult and horrible. I live with my grandmother who has Alzheimers. They will suffer from infections and UTIs. It's no different. Being old is terrible.
And considering infants have had their penises botched or even died from circumcision before, no matter how rare, I would say yes, there are worse things out there than a struggle to catheterize an old man.
Whether or not you "agree" with the definition of a word is irrelevant. You mutilated your son's penis without his consent. Maybe he'll appreciate your decision, and maybe he'll be upset. Either way, his body is forever changed and he won't be able to make his own decision about it.
You can choose to engage in cognitive dissonance if you want, but you did what you did.
Government should outlaw child murder and labor/slavery. But there are so many different cultures that are okay with circumcision. I will make sure my friends know what they're going into if they circumcise their kid but if Government gets involved in this sort of thing nobody walks out happy, since you'll soon see a rise in people circumcising their kids at their home, leading to worse problems. Maybe there is a cultural disconnect here that I don't get?
Fun fact: more countries outlaw cropping dogs' ears and and docking their tails than ban male circumcision.
Nostremitus
Member
I was referencing the old folks. 9/10 uncircumcised men who came in were in constant pain, their penis heads were just raw, smegma covered sores under the foreskin. I'd have to use a cotton swab covered in ointment and go in and clean the areas out. It was heartbreaking watching them be in pain.
Read above, that has nothing to do with it.
To add to that, we had one gentleman who had force his foreskin back but it had a tourniquet effect on his penis. It, the fact that it trapped blood in the penis head caused it to swell and he was unable to pull the skin back up. His skin had split open (The skin on his penis head)... It was not a pleasant experience for him. He was lucky it didn't become gangrenous or need amputation.
Reminds me of how many people said they wouldn't play Zelda's Breath of the Wild because horses can die, but they never gave a shit about the fact Link dies when he runs out of hearts lol.
Always-honest
Banned
It's cultural and religious nonsense.
Having said that. It looks better and it's cleaner.
Having said that. It looks better and it's cleaner.
"But those people own their dogs, they should be able to chop body parts off if they want!!!"
- some of the people in here advocating for circumcision because "it's the parent's child, they can do what they want with it."
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