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[Subpar Spatula]

They saved the world from shit they started.

Loki was allowed to take over earth if he got the tesseract. This was not instigated by any of the Avengers.

Hydra took over SHEILD not because of any of the Avengers.

The Avengers did not create Ulton, Tony Stark did based off previous world ending encounters. He would have done so regardless because those events happened for reasons outside their input.

Vision's line is supremely stupid because conflict has and will always exist with or without the Avengers.

 

[Ravek]

They saved the world from shit they started.

Um...

They made the Chittauri invade earth?

This.

And Thanos is coming. Are The Avnegers to be blamed for that too?

Spoiler

yes I'm aware the movie isn't out yet and we don't know the plot. CYT

 

[pigeon]

The only thing that didn't make sense was Tony wanting to blame Bucky for things he did under hydra brain washing.

Tony's emotionally unstable. The movie is pretty clear about that. You might say it's DUMB for Tony to blame Bucky but it's definitely not, like, surprising or out of character.

 

[Ovid]

Because comics make a whole lot of sense.

Come on dude. Just watch the movie and enjoy it for what is. They're not meant to be award winning films that are supposed to stand the test of time.

 

[Alienous]

The only thing that didn't make sense was Tony wanting to blame Bucky for things he did under hydra brain washing.

It'd take a heck of a person to see their mother get beaten to death on video by a person standing in front of them and have the attitude of 'Ah, don't worry about it, I know you weren't in your right mind'.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Stark and Captain Americas motives were totally backwards. It would have made much more sense for Captain America to tow the Government line and Stark to go against. That was practically their character traits in every movie up until then. The role reversal was ham fisted and it wouldn't have happened if it was Avengers Civil War instead of Captain America Civil War

 

[BruceCLea]

It's a fun flick but just idiotic...I mean, if I were Cap I'd be like...
"Didn't we just purge your entire administration of Hydra and you want to put us on checks and balances? Is this a fucking joke?"

The movies move way too quickly away from the fact that SHIELD was controlled by Hydra for 70 plus years.

I'd tell them to fuck right off if I were a super hero.

 

[jon bones]

mmmmm

 

[The Kree]

Because comics make a whole lot of sense.

Come on dude. Just watch the movie and enjoy it for what is. They're not meant to be award winning films that are supposed to stand the test of time.

This is not about enjoying movies. This is a crusade.

 

[neojubei]

The only thing that didn't make sense was Tony wanting to blame Bucky for things he did under hydra brain washing.

I bet you won't be cool with a neighbor killing someone you loved then him telling you he was brainwashed. Brainwashed isn't a good defense.

In any case Civil War was better than BvS in story, characters and action.

Stark and Captain Americas motives were totally backwards. It would have made much more sense for Captain America to tow the Government line and Stark to go against. That was practically their character traits in every movie up until then. The role reversal was ham fisted and it wouldn't have happened if it was Avengers Civil War instead of Captain America Civil War

no. just no.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

The only thing that didn't make sense was Tony wanting to blame Bucky for things he did under hydra brain washing.

Tony said himself it didn't make sense. He didn't care and he was a having a literal mental breakdown.

 

[pigeon]

Which is even more odd since the government and superiors have shown to either be super corrupt or would drop a nuke on New York.

Like, why would anyone believe oversight is good considering this world's track record?

But then again, the movie pits oversight vs freedom in general without taking into account that world's history.

Oh well.

I mean, the movie also makes it clear that Tony is correct. The Avengers have an internal disagreement over how to handle something and the result is that they level an entire airport. They're not safe to be around! Their problem solving techniques are extremely destructive to everything near them.

But, also, Tony is a little bit of a narcissist. When he says the Avengers need adult supervision he means that he, personally, needs adult supervision. And given that he built Ultron, it's kind of inarguable that he's right. The problem is that that oversight needs to come from somebody who can actually stand up to him. That probably limits it to just other Avengers and Pepper Potts, and she left him, which is the other reason all of this is happening.

Which means that Steve is also correct -- the Avengers are in charge, because they're the only ones who can control the Avengers, and they need to accept that.

Ultimately I think the person who's actually the most correct in the whole movie is Natasha -- who says, essentially, "big deal, so we sign the Accords, we're still the Avengers." The government can't actually manage or contain them. What does it matter what they sign?

 

[BronsonLee]

mmmmm

NO PUT THAT BACK

Tony's mom wasn't even worth killing with the jack arm to Bucky, that's the real kicker

 

[Alienous]

Stark and Captain Americas motives were totally backwards. It would have made much more sense for Captain America to tow the Government line and Stark to go against. That was practically their character traits in every movie up until then. The role reversal was ham fisted and it wouldn't have happened if it was Avengers Civil War instead of Captain America Civil War

I thought the role reversal was a good display of character development.

Tony realizes that, left to his own devices, he'll fuck up again. He's trying to mature into what he thinks a good guy should be - what he was told in Iron Man 2 that he should be.

Steve saw HYDRA burrow out of SHIELD - he understands that, ultimately, he can only have trust in his own ability to make decisions, not in any government.

It made sense for both characters.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

I mean, the movie also makes it clear that Tony is correct. The Avengers have an internal disagreement over how to handle something and the result is that they level an entire airport. They're not safe to be around! Their problem solving techniques are extremely destructive to everything near them.

But, also, Tony is a little bit of a narcissist. When he says the Avengers need adult supervision he means that he, personally, needs adult supervision. And given that he built Ultron, it's kind of inarguable that he's right. The problem is that that oversight needs to come from somebody who can actually stand up to him. That probably limits it to just other Avengers and Pepper Potts, and she left him, which is the other reason all of this is happening.

Their problem solving techniques are not character traits, they're story boards.

He would have built Ultron regardless because all these world ending events would have happened even if the Avengers did not exist.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

It's a fun flick but just idiotic...I mean, if I were Cap I'd be like...
"Didn't we just purge your entire administration of Hydra and you want to put us on checks and balances? Is this a fucking joke?"

The movies move way too quickly away from the fact that SHIELD was controlled by Hydra for 70 plus years.

I'd tell them to fuck right off if I were a super hero.

That's...exactly what Cap did? He said he didn't trust the government to control the Avengers because they couldn't control SHIELD/Hydra. That was the basis of his entire argument.

 

[PanSexual_Peacock]

Stark and Captain Americas motives were totally backwards. It would have made much more sense for Captain America to tow the Government line and Stark to go against. That was practically their character traits in every movie up until then. The role reversal was ham fisted and it wouldn't have happened if it was Avengers Civil War instead of Captain America Civil War

I agree. I also wasn't emotionally invested in the conflict between Stark and Rodgers. I never got the impression that they were actually friends from the previous movies. I thought that aspect of the conflict was unearned.

 

[Grexeno]

Stark and Captain Americas motives were totally backwards. It would have made much more sense for Captain America to tow the Government line and Stark to go against. That was practically their character traits in every movie up until then. The role reversal was ham fisted and it wouldn't have happened if it was Avengers Civil War instead of Captain America Civil War

So Tony Stark, who kickstarted the last Avengers movie by building an AI that then went rogue and almost destroyed the world, should be arguing against government oversight, while Captain America, who just fought against a massive government organization that had secretly been infiltrated and controlled by fascists, should be arguing for government oversight.

huh

 

[InsaneTiger]

As I say to my wife, "Don't think about it, it just movie."

 

[jon bones]

NO PUT THAT BACK

Tony's mom wasn't even worth killing with the jack arm to Bucky, that's the real kicker

i didn't think anyone would find it brutal without an older woman slo mo crying mascara with WHORE drawn on her forehead

 

[thehypocrite]

Yeah. Zemo is definitely a plot baby. Nothing feels earned. This movie it's so bad, so stupid that I felt offended while watching it. A film made for peasants to consume while munching on pop corn, and sipping oversized soda.

 

[The Kree]

Stark and Captain Americas motives were totally backwards. It would have made much more sense for Captain America to tow the Government line and Stark to go against. That was practically their character traits in every movie up until then. The role reversal was ham fisted and it wouldn't have happened if it was Avengers Civil War instead of Captain America Civil War

Captain America's first movie starts with him breaking the law trying to get into the military by faking his identity because he kept getting rejected. He's been a criminal since jump because the powers that be won't let him be a hero.

 

[Veelk]

I thought the role reversal was a good display of character development.

Tony realizes that, left to his own devices, he'll fuck up again. He's trying to mature into what he thinks a good guy should be.

Steve saw HYDRA burrow out of SHIELD - he understands that, ultimately, he can only have trust in his own ability to make decisions.

It made sense for both characters.

Yeah. And it should be noted that while the Accords are a omnipresent background element, the actual plot of the movie is driven by personal stakes. Steve wants to save his friend while thinking there is an imminent danger looming overhead once Zemo gets the other Winter Soldiers up and running, so even if he did agree with the accords, this is a circumstance where he needs to break the rules to stop a bigger threat.

Meanwhile, Tony is just trying to hold the Avengers together. It's not just a philosophical debate, he's trying not to lose the people he cares about to government forces that aren't letting them do what they want anymore. It's not just about the accords, but very real personal stakes that drive the characters to do what they do in the movie.

 

[BronsonLee]

i didn't think anyone would find it brutal without an older woman slo mo crying mascara with WHORE drawn on her forehead

Snyder ain't one for subtlety

Captain America's first movie starts with him breaking the law trying to get into the military by faking his identity because he kept getting rejected. He's been a criminal since jump because the powers that be won't let him be a hero.

If only we had arrested him when we got the chance, we could've prevented Civil War!

 

[BruceCLea]

That's...exactly what Cap did? He said he didn't trust the government to control the Avengers because they couldn't control SHIELD/Hydra. That was the basis of his entire argument.

No it wasn't. It was all about the casualties of war and his relationship with Bucky. The Hydra stuff is glossed right over...

 

[pigeon]

Their problem solving techniques are not character traits, they're story boards.

It's a movie. The stuff that happens in the movie is revelatory of the character traits possessed by the characters.

He would have built Ultron regardless because all these world ending events would have happened even if the Avengers did not exist.

If the Avengers didn't exist everybody would have been murdered by the Chitauri so Ultron would not really be a thing.

 

[Oblivion]

Stark and Captain Americas motives were totally backwards. It would have made much more sense for Captain America to tow the Government line and Stark to go against. That was practically their character traits in every movie up until then. The role reversal was ham fisted and it wouldn't have happened if it was Avengers Civil War instead of Captain America Civil War

Thank you. This is the other big issue that doesn't get mentioned. Why would Iron Man of all people be the government lapdog, and Captain America the one who rejects following orders?

 

[jon bones]

Yeah. Zemo is definitely a plot baby. Nothing feels earned. This movie it's so bad, so stupid that I felt offended while watching it. A film made for peasants to consume while munching on pop corn, and sipping oversized soda.

doesn't even get raisenetes at the theatre 😂

Captain America's first movie starts with him breaking the law trying to get into the military by faking his identity because he kept getting rejected. He's been a criminal since jump because the powers that be won't let him be a hero.

oh shit theres levels to this MCU stuff

 

[Vermillion]

Stark and Captain Americas motives were totally backwards. It would have made much more sense for Captain America to tow the Government line and Stark to go against. That was practically their character traits in every movie up until then. The role reversal was ham fisted and it wouldn't have happened if it was Avengers Civil War instead of Captain America Civil War

Captain America: Winter Soldier - government is secretly evil

Avengers: Age of Ultron - Tony accidentally creates robot that kills people

That's why.

 

[BronsonLee]

Yeah. Zemo is definitely a plot baby. Nothing feels earned. This movie it's so bad, so stupid that I felt offended while watching it. A film made for peasants to consume while munching on pop corn, and sipping oversized soda.

yo why do you suck so much

all films are made for entertainment fool and if I want to have to pee like a race horse because I got all of the flavors in the Coke Freestyle machine I'll do it

doesn't even get raisenetes at the theatre 😂

The true movie candy king

 

[Tookay]

Stark and Captain Americas motives were totally backwards. It would have made much more sense for Captain America to tow the Government line and Stark to go against. That was practically their character traits in every movie up until then. The role reversal was ham fisted and it wouldn't have happened if it was Avengers Civil War instead of Captain America Civil War

Disagree entirely. Their respective alignments reflected the character's journeys from their debut movies and what they have experienced/learned since then.

Tony isn't the "do what I want playboy" anymore. He's seen what his ambition has wrought and decided that reeling himself (and others) in is the best course of action.

And Steve, after witnessing Hydra's corruption of what he fought for, is not going to let other people dictate what is right and wrong.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

It's a movie. The stuff that happens in the movie is revelatory of the character traits possessed by the characters.

No. There's a reason why all these movies have big third act battles because that's an entertainment factor. Tony wouldn't try to kill Cap or Bucky. Just an easy excuse to fight which is why it never felt earned.

If the Avengers didn't exist everybody would have been murdered by the Chitauri so Ultron would not really be a thing.

They would have nuked it and if Loki cannot resist a punch from Hulk, a Nuke would decimate.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Thank you. This is the other big issue that doesn't get mentioned. Why would Iron Man of all people be the government lapdog, and Captain America the one who rejects following orders?

Shit, it's almost like Tony feeling responsible for the shit he caused changed his outlook, whilst Steve's perspective on the complex morality of the modern world have pulled him away from being a government stooge.

 

[The Technomancer]

The impetus for most of the conflict in Civil War is that an African nation wants a bunch of what are, lets be honest, western and west-centered interests to stop using their backyard as a battlefield without permission

Again its really hard for me to be against that

 

[PhantomZone]

Didn't enjoy it that much after getting sucked back into the hype with the trailers. TFA is still the best Captain America movie.

 

[louiedog]

Thanks, Bleepey.

It's refreshing to have a thread about a superhero vs movie where people can discuss points because it's of a quality where it doesn't just come down to "this movie is okay vs this movie total shit".

 

[Subpar Spatula]

It's really odd how the people of the world don't get a voice. This big international signing to overseer the Avengers is being held and we're supposed to assume everyone is OK with it based off the flimsiest of logic.

If anything, Tony Stark should have been executed for creating Ultron but everyone just forgives the shit out of him.

You're told certain perspectives so you feel a certain way throughout so it comes off cheap and simple.

 

[Vermillion]

The impetus for most of the conflict in Civil War is that an African nation wants a bunch of what are, lets be honest, western and west-centered interests to stop using their backyard as a battlefield without permission

Again its really hard for me to be against that

Comics-wise, if I recall correctly, that was the reason behind Superman discarding his American citizenship in a story a while back. His actions in foreign nations were seen as being tied to the American government. But he wanted to be hero for everyone.

Same with the Avengers but... they still have their citizenship.

 

[theWB27]

Thank you. This is the other big issue that doesn't get mentioned. Why would Iron Man of all people be the government lapdog, and Captain America the one who rejects following orders?

Cap knows he's going to be used as a weapon. Why would anyone smart willingly become property?

 

[MattKeil]

I was all ready to do a point-by-point refutation of the OP, but when the OP misses the point/misunderstands so much basic stuff about the film, what's the point? The premise makes sense, the character conflicts are earned. Zemo's plan doesn't quite hold water but he's an excuse for the character stuff, not the point of the film.

People trying to tear down the Marvel films is almost as boring now as people trying to defend the DCEU (with the exception of WW, which was actually good).

 

[GuitarAtomik]

So Tony Stark, who kickstarted the last Avengers movie by building an AI that then went rogue and almost destroyed the world, should be arguing against government oversight, while Captain America, who just fought against a massive government organization that had secretly been infiltrated and controlled by fascists, should be arguing for government oversight.

huh

Surprised so many people seem to miss this point. The movies have led them pretty naturally to this point.

 

[Einchy]

People trying to tear down the Marvel films is almost as boring now as people trying to defend the DCEU (with the exception of WW, which was actually good).

You get both with Bleepey!

 

[Oblivion]

I was all ready to do a point-by-point refutation of the OP, but when the OP misses the point/misunderstands so much basic stuff about the film, what's the point? The premise makes sense, the character conflicts are earned. Zemo's plan doesn't quite hold water but he's an excuse for the character stuff, not the point of the film.

People trying to tear down the Marvel films is almost as boring now as people trying to defend the DCEU (with the exception of WW, which was actually good).

Dude, why are you going to bat so hard for Civil War?

There's plenty of other, more deserving Marvel movies that could use a defense force.

 

[Rumblebones]

Yeah, this movie where the hero is blamed about people dying in Africa despite not being his fault at all makes no sense.

It doesn't have to make sense.

People don't make logical decision 100% of the time in real life. Why would it in film?

Superman being blamed for actions of his control isn't unrealistic, or unbelievable. He's a godlike figure. Fear and politics taking their course and resulting in much of the blame, if not all of it, being put on Superman is actually rather realistic and predictable.

 

[O.v.e.rlord]

Don't care. Fun movie!

 

[Oblivion]

It was better than the comic it was based on, and that's all it really needed to be (IMO).

Good lord. The comic must have been really bad, then...

 

[neojubei]

Dude, why are you going to bat so hard for Civil War?

There's plenty of other, more deserving Marvel movies that could use a defense force.

Because Civil War is a awesome great movie that's more fun and exciting than either BvS and Suicide Squad.

 

[MHWilliams]

Thank you. This is the other big issue that doesn't get mentioned. Why would Iron Man of all people be the government lapdog, and Captain America the one who rejects following orders?

Stark: Because he spent previous films doing his own thing and it didn't work. This is his mea culpa.

Cap: Because he spent a previous film finding out the people he was taking orders from were horribly corrupt.

You're trying to backstop to comic motivations, instead of looking at the actual characters in the film.

I was all ready to do a point-by-point refutation of the OP, but when the OP misses the point/misunderstands so much basic stuff about the film, what's the point? The premise makes sense, the character conflicts are earned. Zemo's plan doesn't quite hold water but he's an excuse for the character stuff, not the point of the film.

Pretty much this.

 

[The Kree]

Surprised so many people seem to miss this point. The movies have led them pretty naturally to this point.

Oh, the irony of criticizing the movies as simple and poorly written while missing surface level details that easily refute most of their criticisms. If it's not deliberately missing the point, it's plain dumb.

 

[Phamit]

Thank you. This is the other big issue that doesn't get mentioned. Why would Iron Man of all people be the government lapdog, and Captain America the one who rejects following orders?

In The Winter Soldier we see Cap criticizing Fury for creating a Surveillance State and in the End the Government Agency in control of Surveillance tools turns out to be infiltrated with Nazis.

He already showed in Winter Soldier that he isn't a lapdog of the government and the events of Winter Soldier likely strengthened his views, because he didn't join the government after Shield.