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Civil War as a movie makes no sense

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Oh, the irony of criticizing the movies as simple and poorly written while missing surface level details that easily refute most of their criticisms. If it's not deliberately missing the point, it's plain dumb.

I should have added a "not so surprised with some" qualifier lol.
 

TheXbox

Member
Agree with you on Spider-Man, at least. Stark recruits a child soldier to fight gods, probably so he can nail the kid's aunt. Talk about the shittiest unpaid internship.

You could also take Spider-Man out of the film and it would lose absolutely nothing.
 

pigeon

Banned
I don't think you understand that these movies need a big third act. The movies would be 100% different if they weren't made from an popcorn entertainment angle.

"The hypothetical movie that would exist if only they listened to me" is not an authoritative source.
 

LionPride

Banned
I feel like I should be surprised, but Bleepey, you of all people should know to pay attention before saying something did or didn't happen or does or doesn't make sense
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Shit, it's almost like Tony feeling responsible for the shit he caused changed his outlook, whilst Steve's perspective on the complex morality of the modern world have pulled him away from being a government stooge.

Cap knows he's going to be used as a weapon. Why would anyone smart willingly become property?

Stark: Because he spent previous films doing his own thing and it didn't work. This is his mea culpa.

Cap: Because he spent a previous film finding out the people he was taking orders from were horribly corrupt.

You're trying to backstop to comic motivations, instead of looking at the actual characters in the film.

In The Winter Soldier we see Cap criticizing Fury for creating a Surveillance State and in the End the Government Agency in control of Surveillance tools turns out to be infiltrated with Nazis.

He already showed in Winter Soldier that he isn't a lapdog of the government and the events of Winter Soldier likely strengthened his views, because he didn't join the government after Shield.

Did some people skip the other movies and went straight to CW .
It is rather easy to see how Tony and Cap change sides and how they think.

Guys, obviously I know all that. I was making fun of Chuck Norris.
 

WaterAstro

Member
The Avengers are blamed for what happened in Africa.

Of course they are blamed. In the eyes of world, they were operating within civilian zones. Their actions resulted in people's deaths.

I don't agree with the UN assessment. This isn't the case of ends justify the means. They are there to save as many people as they possibly can. Cap is never going to think about sacrificing lives for the greater good.

Character motivations.

Tony has the perfect set up as a motivation to own up to his faults. He created Ultron. He feels guilty for the deaths caused in Avengers 2. You talk about Iron Man 2, but he doesn't start getting it until Avengers 2.

Cap on the other hand feels that the safest hands are still his own. Why? Because he's Captain fucking America.

Captain America stopped a sleeper Hydra agenda from killing millions of people. The entire SHIELD organization was compromised. Do you really think he'll believe another agency that could also be compromised?

Black panther.

His dad got killed. You don't really think logically after that sort of episode. Black Panther is pretty emotional in the comics.
We just saw Batman murder dozens of baddies in BvS. I don't think Batman is any sort of role model either.


Zemo's plan is perfect, and Zemo beat the Avengers. Once Hydra's info got leaked in Cap 2, Zemo cracked Hydra's codes and found the Winter Soldier program. Everything he did was carefully planned. You can see it especially when he courted the room service lady in order to get her to find the body of the psychiatrist, and he did this knowing it would draw Iron Man to Siberia.

The variable of whether Cap would get captured first or not doesn't matter. If Cap got captured, the Avengers fall apart. If he didn't get captured, then he would lure Cap and Iron Man to Siberia into a trap. He had the absolute perfect plan.

Spider-man.

Whatever, it's Spiderman. Who really cares if it's a useless cameo.
 

exYle

Member
Yeah. Zemo is definitely a plot baby. Nothing feels earned. This movie it's so bad, so stupid that I felt offended while watching it. A film made for peasants to consume while munching on pop corn, and sipping oversized soda.

Lmao holy shit

For real though, Zemo's plan is a bit simpler than the movie made it out to be. It goes as such:

1) Dig through the Hydra files to find something he can use against the Avengers
2) Get the mission report from December 1991
- He tried doing this with the major, but the major refused to help him, complicating his plan. So he instead goes to the source of the information himself, armed with the brainwashing codes
3) Smoke Bucky out of hiding. Hey, the UN is having a big important meeting. Perfect, I'll bomb that and blame in on Bucky. Cue international manhunt
4) Get close to Bucky to get the mission report
5) Go to Russia and get the video evidence
6) Lure Tony and Cap there by revealing the false identity shit

The whole Civil War/Accords thing was conveniently happening alongside Zemo's plan, he had nothing to do with it. You can call that a contrivance but his plan theoretically could have worked even if tensions amongst the Avengers weren't already crazy high from the accords. If Tony and Cap weren't lured to Siberia with him, Zemo could've easily just sent the video to Tony directly. Again, if you think that's contrived that's your prerogative
 

pigeon

Banned
So you're saying if a movie wasn't focused on being an action blockbuster, it would still have the same ending?

I...am not sure how you got that from what I'm saying.

I'm saying that you might think the movie might be different, but, like, that doesn't actually change the characters as they were revealed to us, and they were revealed to us by the movie that was actually made.

Your argument seems to postulate that the characters exist independently of the movies. They don't. (I mean, they do, but the characters in the comic books are not the same as the characters in the movies. Otherwise there's kind of a huge continuity problem where Steve is doing all this stuff despite being a secret Hydra agent.)
 
I...am not sure how you got that from what I'm saying.

I'm saying that you might think the movie might be different, but, like, that doesn't actually change the characters as they were revealed to us, and they were revealed to us by the movie that was actually made.

Your argument seems to postulate that the characters exist independently of the movies. They don't. (I mean, they do, but the characters in the comic books are not the same as the characters in the movies. Otherwise there's kind of a huge continuity problem where Steve is doing all this stuff despite being a secret Hydra agent.)

The characters choices are defined by there being an explosive third act. I'm not sure how you do not get this.
 
Guys, obviously I know all that. I was making fun of Chuck Norris.

ZMay69M_700wa_0.gif
 

massoluk

Banned
It is weird that the directors talked about purposefully making Winter Soldier a Honest Trailer-proof film, but dropped the ball so hard with Zemo's plot in Civil War
 

pigeon

Banned
The characters choices are defined by there being an explosive third act. I'm not sure how you do not get this.

I get that you're arguing that, I'm just not sure why it matters even if it is true. The fact that the character's choices are driven by the demands of the medium doesn't make them not the character's choices.
 
I get that you're arguing that, I'm just not sure why it matters even if it is true. The fact that the character's choices are driven by the demands of the medium doesn't make them not the character's choices.

Not saying it's not their choices but their choices don't feel earned because their being used cheaply to get to a certain stage of the film.
 

LionPride

Banned
Yeah. Zemo is definitely a plot baby. Nothing feels earned. This movie it's so bad, so stupid that I felt offended while watching it. A film made for peasants to consume while munching on pop corn, and sipping oversized soda.
I can never get a read on you, if you're not a gimmick account, I feel sorry for you

If you are, why
 
Man this thread devolved into 'but BvS is worse'.

I feel the OP was bait, but ya'll should have known better than to fall for it.

Civil War is a good film, though I personally find it vastly overrated (enjoyed TWS, both GotG movies and the first avengers much much more). Felt like a avengers-lite to me.

Guess I'm in the minority again, on rewatches I mostly end up skipping a lot of CW, but watch BvS all the way through (even the Martha scene).
 
I was actually going to make this thread a while ago but not even for the Africa thing. The UN or whoever runs the government blames the Avengers for collateral damage for the previous movies. THE SKY OPENS UP AND A GIANT MECHANICAL SNAKE 500 STORIES HIGH CLIMBS OUT AND DESTROYS NEW YORK....like the world would have ended a few times if it weren't for the Avengers.
 

LionPride

Banned
I was actually going to make this thread a while ago but not even for the Africa thing. The UN or whoever runs the government blames the Avengers for collateral damage for the previous movies. THE SKY OPENS UP AND A GIANT MECHANICAL SNAKE 500 STORIES HIGH CLIMBS OUT AND DESTROYS NEW YORK....like the world would have ended a few times if it weren't for the Avengers.
Ay

Don't worry bout it

I believe the constant thought is if the Avengers weren't around, then that never happens. Which is wrong but they don't know that. They just know they have people to blame.
 

theWB27

Member
Man this thread devolved into 'but BvS is worse'.

I feel the OP was bait, but ya'll should have known better than to fall for it.

Civil War is a good film, though I personally find it vastly overrated (enjoyed TWS, both GotG movies and the first avengers much much more). Felt like a avengers-lite to me.

Guess I'm in the minority again, on rewatches I mostly end up skipping a lot of CW, but watch BvS all the way through (even the Martha scene).

First guardians is way overrated. Haven't seen 2.
 

WaterAstro

Member
I was actually going to make this thread a while ago but not even for the Africa thing. The UN or whoever runs the government blames the Avengers for collateral damage for the previous movies. THE SKY OPENS UP AND A GIANT MECHANICAL SNAKE 500 STORIES HIGH CLIMBS OUT AND DESTROYS NEW YORK....like the world would have ended a few times if it weren't for the Avengers.

The building had Wakanda officials, so it became a bigger deal as Wakanda pushed for action.

I'm on Cap's side though.
 

Pizza

Member
The Avengers movies aren't well-written.

None of the marvel movies are.

The film was goddawful tbh. Absolute trash. It doesn't work as a work of cinema and it's riddled with bad storytelling. Zemo only exists to retroactively give some sort of consequence for age of ultron and he LITERALLY tries to kill himself when he's all done forcing plot to happen.

"WOW CAPTAIN AMERICA IM SHOCKED AND HURT THAT YOU DIDNT TELL ME YOUR FRIEND KILLED MY PARENTS WHEN HE WAS BRAINWASHED WHILE WE ARGUED OVER CHOPPED WOOD"
 
Ay

Don't worry bout it

I believe the constant thought is if the Avengers weren't around, then that never happens. Which is wrong but they don't know that. They just know they have people to blame.

I am sure there are reasons I just remember when watching it the first time I chuckled at the plot point. I mean, I dont watch The Avengers for the story so its okay.
 
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