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CNN Monday: Healthcare debate between Graham/Cassidy and Bernie/Kobluchar

V

VendettaRed07

Member
pigeon said:
I honestly don't know what to think about this.
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Same. Sort of conflicted.

In a way, I don't think enough people are aware of what the GOP is currently trying to do. Or that it will kick 30m off of healthcare of the next few years. And apparently make the elderly's premiums skyrocket. More attention needs to be brought to the specifics than there currently is

But at the same time people have already said that yeah the GOP will just use it to go after Sanders plan. But then again I like his plan, so if he can't defend it in the face of what they are doing then what chance is there of it gaining any momentum. Medicare for all isn't lethal, it's the opposite.

Really I feel like democrats shouldn't be afraid to debate the republicans. They are obviously in the wrong. Maybe there was someone more equipped to debate this but it's unlikely many were willing to do it.

Happy Klobuchar is there.
 
H

hipsterpants

Member
I don't think this will go well but I also feel like if you're "on the fence" about UHC you'll end up leaning towards no anyway. I'd argue its moreso a moral issue than anything, the cost will always be a problem and also be the only argument the Republicans have.

I also think it's ridiculous how convinced Graham is that he's going to put an end to the march towards UHC in the U.S. That shitty bill will just lurch us forward.
 
A

AmayaPapaya

Banned
The Ted Cruz debate wasn't nearly as bad as people are making it out to be. The problem was, no one's mind was gonna be changed by what either said. It was pointless, in the end.

This should be interesting, at least. Graham and Cassidy aren't quite as talented as Ted Cruz at misleading, and Kobluchar is a great foil to Bernie, IMO.

In the end, I think it will be pointless, like the last. No one's mind is gonna be changed by a debate, unless someone severely messes up. Only old people are gonna watch this, and I don't think they are interested in changing their minds with anything, anyway.
 
K

kcp12304

Banned
I think at the end of the day, sunlight hurts this thing. It polls like shit. The GOP want to shove this thing through as quick as they can and with little debate and process.
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
Fenderputty said:
I'm shocked Berniecrats can't think critically about anything beyond rooting for the boi (literally the first bernicrat post in this thread.) Shocked, I tell you. Wait one fucking week and nobody in this thread would give a damn. I sure as shit wouldn't.
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In all seriousness: he was an excellent advocate against ACA repeal the last few times, and everyone I see here insisting that he did badly against Cruz is someone who's despised him for quite some time now. I'm done taking these people seriously. Maybe they'll move on from the primary eventually, like the leading 2020 contenders are doing; if not, not my problem.
 
A

aaaaa0

Member
This is going to be a disaster unless Bernie manages to pivot back to GC every time they try to change the subject to his single payer bill. :(
 
R

royalan

Member
Father_Brain said:
In all seriousness: he was an excellent advocate against ACA repeal the last few times, and everyone I see here insisting that he did badly against Cruz is someone who's despised him for quite some time now. I'm done taking these people seriously. Maybe they'll move on from the primary eventually, like the leading 2020 contenders are doing; if not, not my problem.
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...you do realize that Bernie is an acting politician, right now, in 2017, right?

Which means that anybody paying attention can dislike the man without automatically defaulting to being hung up over the 2016 primary.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
kcp12304 said:
I think at the end of the day, sunlight hurts this thing. It polls like shit. The GOP want to shove this thing through as quick as they can and with little debate and process.
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Pretty much.

They tried to ram the last one through at midnight. They don't want people to know what this is or what they are even doing.

Just deflect back any time they try to go after "Berniecare" that they are the ones trying to kick 20 million people off insurance just for the sake of a tax break for the wealthy
 
L

LegendofJoe

Member
The Koch brothers dangling a 400 million dollar bribe to the GOP to kick millions off insurance for a taxcut should be THE attack vector for Bernie. Because that is what this bill is all about - paying for tax cuts.
 
Z

Zolo

Member
LegendofJoe said:
The Koch brothers dangling a 400 million dollar bribe to the GOP to kick millions off insurance for a taxcut should be THE attack vector for Bernie. Because that is what this bill is all about - paying for tax cuts.
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Yeah. Aside from attacking what effects the bill has, I hope this is also brought up.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Emarv said:
Should have been Bernie and Gillibrand. Gillibrand would have articulated both the critiques of the GOP bill and the defense of Bernie's bill best.
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Gillibrand has to run for re-election in 2018 and is trying to avoid blatantly running for President before then.
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
royalan said:
...you do realize that Bernie is an acting politician, right now, in 2017, right?

Which means that anybody paying attention can dislike the man without automatically defaulting to being hung up over the 2016 primary.
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sure, I guess there are also leftists who see him as insufficiently radical and that Svitavsky guy with a 35-year-long personal grudge against him
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
Father_Brain said:
In all seriousness: he was an excellent advocate against ACA repeal the last few times, and everyone I see here insisting that he did badly against Cruz is someone who's despised him for quite some time now. I'm done taking these people seriously. Maybe they'll move on from the primary eventually, like the leading 2020 contenders are doing; if not, not my problem.
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So you just write off the Cruz performance because it's clearly just Bernie haters. Come on, man.

They've admitted this is their opportunity to wreck Berniecare. This should't be their opportunity. A less than stellar performance here not only affects his plan, but it makes the GC plan alternative to O-Care seems more reasonable. It's risky. They're trying to get this GC bill crap rammed through next week.
 
Z

Zolo

Member
ThreePiMatt said:
Bernie is at a huge disadvantage going into something like this purely on the fact that Graham and Cassidy can just fucking lie.
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Can't it just be asked what specific statue of the bill protects people with pre-existing conditions? Or point out specifically which part cuts protections for it?
 
S

Shadybiz

Member
LegendofJoe said:
The Koch brothers dangling a 400 million dollar bribe to the GOP to kick millions off insurance for a taxcut should be THE attack vector for Bernie. Because that is what this bill is all about - paying for tax cuts.
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They really do need to hammer that home, yes. People need to understand that this is really what most of the GOP actually care about.
 
K

Koomaster

Member
Well this will be a trainwreck. If anyone can get moderates to turn their backs it's Bernard. Can Democrats really find nobody else who would take the stage? What a wasted opportunity.
 
G

Glitchesarecool

Member
This is a terrible idea and is only good for GC.

Koomaster said:
Well this will be a trainwreck. If anyone can get moderates to turn their backs it's Bernard. Can Democrats really find nobody else who would take the stage? What a wasted opportunity.
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It might be more that Bernie won't let anyone else take the stage.

Zolo said:
Can't it just be asked what specific statue of the bill protects people with pre-existing conditions? Or point out specifically which part cuts protections for it?
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"States will find new and innovative ways..."
 
Z

zelas

Member
VendettaRed07 said:
Really I feel like democrats shouldn't be afraid to debate the republicans. They are obviously in the wrong. Maybe there was someone more equipped to debate this but it's unlikely many were willing to do it.
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Democrats aren't afraid. People are concerned because Bernie has proven to not be the best person for this type of job. Debating and evangelizing are two different things and he needs to be better at the former to be able to convince people who don't default to (D). Too often is he pushed to give inane responses to key questions, leaving the door open and giving legitimacy to his opponents.
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
in any case, 99.9% of the people who will watch this already have their minds made up about C/G so I'm not really sure what the worst-case scenario would be even if I agreed that Sanders was a bad debater on this issue, which I don't
 
W

WhateverItTakes

Banned
Father_Brain said:
in any case, 99.9% of the people who will watch this already have their minds made up about C/G so I'm not really sure what the worst-case scenario would be even if I agreed that Sanders was a bad debater on this issue, which I don't
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Headlines spilling out could have an effect, and with conservative media being what it is could be negative, but then, that applies to everything. A verbal Smackdown be a Republican will not be good though, however it's framed.

The fear is since Bernie is a loose cannon for the party line people are worried he'll focus more on his single payer bill then the immediate problem of the repeal effort. Still, I'm hoping he's shrewd enough to prepare well and not give a meandering speech. His presence might actually be helpful if it goes well, gets more eyes on the thing.
 
I

Iolo

Member
I don't even like Bernie that much but let the guy debate for God's sake. Did debates on policy change the 2016 election? No. Will this particular debate change any of the 4-5 fence sitting Republican senators minds? No. Is anyone even going to watch it? Probably not many.

What this debate accomplishes is that, after Obamacare is destroyed and healthcare collapses, the concept of Medicare for all remains in the public consciousness and maybe some of Trump's idiot voters who actually support such a position switch over to Democrats. Because right now we got nothing else to make them do so.
 
J

Jeels

Member
Bernie needs to go. He can't represent the left against the right. He should just be pulling the left more left.
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
Bernie just has to bring up Graham/Cassidy's bill provision would exempt Alaska, Montana from a cap on Medicaid spending, while fucking over every other state.
 
Y

y2dvd

Member
It's so weird because I see this as a win/win. Bernie gets to trash his opponents bill and promote his own single-payer bill. Let's face it, the people that were gonna oppose SP were already gonna do so from the start. I think Bernie will use the platform to convince the few on the fence why SP is in their best interest.
 
S

Sohter.Nura

Member
Bernie is gonna mop the floor with this. Even if doesn't have the best debating skills, he can easily point out how fucking awful the other side's bill is basically they're basically fucking bought.

y2dvd said:
It's so weird because I see this as a win/win. Bernie gets to trash his opponents bill and promote his own single-payer bill. Let's face it, the people that were gonna oppose SP were already gonna do so from the start. I think Bernie will use the platform to convince the few on the fence why SP is in their best interest.
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I think the same. As soon as people understand the term single payer, medicare for all, whatever, they are more open to it. When they get to understand that every other country in the world, even 3rd world countries, have it, and it works, and it's cheaper, they adept to it.

And it's the Democrats jobs to explain to the american people that we don't have it because our politicians are bought by insurance companies and drug companies. Even with Obamacare, which was a step up from what we had before, we're still on "supply side economics" in our healthcare system.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Hearing people say Bernie doesn't support the ACA wnough is as ludicrous as Hillary saying that Bernie didn't support her campaign enough.
 
C

cdyhybrid

Member
Staccat0 said:
Sadly the people who watch this won't matter.
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davepoobond said:
bernie is awful at debates, so i guess obamacare is getting repealed
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This debate doesn't matter at all. If debate and logic and facts mattered we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. Graham and Cassidy will lie their asses off because it's simply not plausible to fact check every single thing they say in real time and inject that information back into the debate forum.

Bernie and Kobluchar will correctly point out that they're full of shit, but Faux News and Co. will spin it as a GOP victory. Business as usual.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Ragnarok said:
Did anybody watch this? I missed it and would like to know how it went down.
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Bernie mopped the floor. I think a toddler could have beaten back Graham cassidy in a debate though, literally anyone on the democratic side. What was more interesting to me was how Sanders subtlety injecting medicare for all into the debate and Linsdey graham trying to have backhanded compliments about it "Bernie is the most honest person in the senate, atleast he's honest about wanting government run healthcare"


What's annoying to me is how CNN handles this sort of thing. they present it as a debate, yet then have this on their site

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/opinions/single-payer-failure-opinion-atlas/index.html

Written by a guy who has always advocated against "government regulation" in the marketplace to the point where he's said in the past he wants to get rid of Obamacare and replace it with a system with less government regulations. It gives the viewpoint that people who view CNN's headlines are getting actual information as opposed to propaganda that is actually factually incorrect and not just a difference of opinion.

Nothing on their site says that this guy is a right wing guy or someone against these things from a flawed foundation
 
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