Talking about MP.
It's success inspired copycatting in the same way COD does now?
CoD has almost ruined a generation of shooter players - Tripwire
- Thread starter Dave Meltzer
- Start date
Talking about MP.
It's success inspired copycatting in the same way COD does now?
bluecapsule
Member
The original Halo was pretty decent for competitive play. Troll less please.
Even a dumbed down version of Tribes is still Tribes in the end. Thats why you liked it so much.
endresults
Member
It popularized a particular kind of shooter which CoD turned around and tweaked. Now everything is regenerating health and spammy as hell. That wouldn't have happened if Halo wasn't popular, thus my extraordinarily unpopular opinion.
The Librarian
Banned
How did Halo 2 forcibly make other developers incorporate some of its ideas? Are you blaming it for being popular? That's not the game's fault.
Halo 2's a great game.
CoD didn't do anything except cast a wider net.
The issues that this Tripwire dev is experiencing with bringing in players would have been an issue with or without CoD's proliferation because his example is the type of person who would never have played Red Orchestra in the first place.
The issues that this Tripwire dev is experiencing with bringing in players would have been an issue with or without CoD's proliferation because his example is the type of person who would never have played Red Orchestra in the first place.
endresults
Member
It just happens to be last common ancestor of nearly every shooter out there today. Nothing personal.
Why did you single me out when the thread is about COD being accused of having the same exact impact?
Net_Wrecker
Member
Much worse than CoD ruining players is CoD + RPG hybrid design ruining other mutiplayer games (aka devs ruining themselves). Almost nothing is pure and simple anymore. Everything has to be about leveling, and unlocking, and perks, and killstreaks, and more time = better crap, and attachments, and painting weapons, and customizable players that look like skittles, and blah blah blah.
I want to see more multiplayer games where everyone starts out on equal ground at the beginning of the match and all the time and effort went into balancing and polishing the hell out of the gameplay instead of adding a million pieces of crap so players can fill bars. Multiplayer that's not reliant on killstreaks, but just good old fashion kills. Multiplayer with a consistent aesthetic, not Gears of War suddenly looking like Super Mario Galaxy. I want my F.E.A.R. Combat, my Uncharted 2 (pre awful patch), my classic Halo, my Killzone 2 mayhem, etc.
I want to see more multiplayer games where everyone starts out on equal ground at the beginning of the match and all the time and effort went into balancing and polishing the hell out of the gameplay instead of adding a million pieces of crap so players can fill bars. Multiplayer that's not reliant on killstreaks, but just good old fashion kills. Multiplayer with a consistent aesthetic, not Gears of War suddenly looking like Super Mario Galaxy. I want my F.E.A.R. Combat, my Uncharted 2 (pre awful patch), my classic Halo, my Killzone 2 mayhem, etc.
In what world is Call of Duty tweaked Halo? Other than regenerating health, 2 weapon limit, and grenades? Aside from the 2 weapon limit, those mechanics aren't even implemented similarly.
That's not even counting the vast number of huge, core gameplay mechanics that differ between the two franchises.
ChimpanzeeThat
Member
I don't think COD has ruined anything, what does ruin FPS gaming is every publisher trying to copy the success COD has had with crappy titles like Homefront and Medal Of Honor: Warfighter and any decent FPS title being branded a "COD Killer".
I play a lot of COD but have never once not played another game because it doesn't play like COD, and i've never heard that being said either. I play Halo 4, Counter Strike: GO and TF2 as well and they are all very different to COD and i appreciate that difference.
Also, regarding the movement in Red Orchestra 2, it feels like a Forrest Gump simulator, very awkward and statuesque.
I play a lot of COD but have never once not played another game because it doesn't play like COD, and i've never heard that being said either. I play Halo 4, Counter Strike: GO and TF2 as well and they are all very different to COD and i appreciate that difference.
Also, regarding the movement in Red Orchestra 2, it feels like a Forrest Gump simulator, very awkward and statuesque.
CountAntonius
Member
this.
Say what you want about Call of Duty games, but at least the game responds really well to what you are doing. When you shoot at an enemy, the enemy actually takes damage and dies (on PC/dedicated servers anyway). With games like BF3 and RO2 there's so much latency between you starting to shoot and anything actually happening that it makes the whole game feel so sluggish. More often than not your enemy has time to turn 180 degrees and start shooting at you - sometimes even resulting into a situation where you kill each other even though you got the upper-hand and started shooting him in the back a second ago. You can get used to the latency of BF3, but once you play something that actually responds well, going back to BF3 takes time (to adjust to the latency again).
From the games I've played, the original Day of Defeat had probably the best combination of how it handled, responded to inputs while not going overboard with silly stuff like CoD does. When it was ported to Source engine, the latency increased ever so slightly and the game didn't feel as tight anymore. Same problem with going from CS to CS: Source. I guess that's the issue here, newer game engines simply have too much latency while CoD games were originally developed on a proper John Carmack engine and while CoD games have moved on from those days, some design decision still remain in the game engine.
I mean I could be completely wrong with all of this but it's how I feel. The jump from HL engine to Source was quite terrible and I don't think any fps engine has managed to get even close to how responsive those older game engines were.
From the games I've played, the original Day of Defeat had probably the best combination of how it handled, responded to inputs while not going overboard with silly stuff like CoD does. When it was ported to Source engine, the latency increased ever so slightly and the game didn't feel as tight anymore. Same problem with going from CS to CS: Source. I guess that's the issue here, newer game engines simply have too much latency while CoD games were originally developed on a proper John Carmack engine and while CoD games have moved on from those days, some design decision still remain in the game engine.
I mean I could be completely wrong with all of this but it's how I feel. The jump from HL engine to Source was quite terrible and I don't think any fps engine has managed to get even close to how responsive those older game engines were.
Poimandres
Member
Yeah, the first fully 3D FPS ruined the genre it created....
There is much to be said about physics based real world shooters. There are certainly more factors to take into consideration when playing those kinds of games, but in no way does that invalidate "instant" shooters like the Quake games. Those games are snappy, fast, and gratifying. You kill, you die, you respawn. Realistic bullet and movement physics and one hit kill weaponry are things that came about later, and honestly I always preferred Quake to Counterstike and its ilk.
If that's not what you want in a shooter, fair enough, but don't pretend that the genre has been "ruined" when shooters of that kind have been around since the dawn of FPS.
endresults
Member
Regenerating health isn't something you can just say "oh, CoD has strawberry jelly instead of beeping to tell me when I need to take cover, so it's different." Same with the two-weapon limit. I'll give you grenades, although the plasma/sticky/frag/incendiary grenades of Halo have some cousins in the sticky/frag/bouncing betty/tripwire etc. of CoD.
The Librarian
Banned
How is hating the game itself not making it personal? Hate its success, not the game. You're hating the game.
So you have no response to what I wrote?
I clicked the title because the subject matter was of interest, even though I don't care too much about CoD as a franchise. I do, however, think people are wrong to blame any CoD game in particular (they should blame its success and the tendency of developers to copy each other).
I do, on the other hand, care about Halo, and what's being said about Halo 1 and Halo 2 by you and others is ridiculous. That's why I commented.
this
its as dumb as saying used games/piracy = lost sales
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Gamers ruined this generation of shooters for voting with their wallets on dung.
kutthoat5150
Member
save me from this madness arma 3
Phanatic8390
Member
While I agree with the comments about COD compressing the skill gap, Tripwire certainly didn't help attract people from that formula with RO2.
I can't help by think that if they released a finished working version of RO2 that they might have been able to grow a hardcore FPS community instead of killing it.
I still can't believe I gave Tripwire money for RO2. It was fundamentally broken on release and I would be surprised if there were more than 50 people playing it today.
I can't help by think that if they released a finished working version of RO2 that they might have been able to grow a hardcore FPS community instead of killing it.
I still can't believe I gave Tripwire money for RO2. It was fundamentally broken on release and I would be surprised if there were more than 50 people playing it today.
Lysander91
Banned
I'm pretty sure it was sarcasm. Quake and UT both had tons of copycats just like CoD.
Halo kill times are much different than Call of Duty's. Halo has shields with an indication of how much charge remains.
Call of Duty does just have the blood spatter+heavy breathing to indicate health. Players die with just a few bullets, and kill times are incredibly short compared to Halo.
Even then, health is just one small difference. You're straight-up ignoring Halo's weapons on maps, emphasis on strafe and movement, radar, hipfire-only weapons, lack of perks/loadouts/killstreaks (not counting Halo 4, as that game actually is more similar to Call of Duty), and varied and non-traditional sandboxes.
The 2 franchises as a whole are polar opposites.
Why hasn't a popular PC exclusive shooter ever become popular on consoles after getting a port?
Because they don't play well on consoles if they were designed for PC.
So now that developers have figured out how to do console shooters with the likes of COD and Halo. PC gamers get stuck with the console ports designed around console limitations.
Because they don't play well on consoles if they were designed for PC.
So now that developers have figured out how to do console shooters with the likes of COD and Halo. PC gamers get stuck with the console ports designed around console limitations.
endresults
Member
My gamercard and stats are all up on Xbox Live under the same username as my GAF name. I've beat them all on Legendary and played a lot of MP in every single one. It's Halo, and it's just as much mine as it is yours, but it has always had the Babby's First FPS rep, and I think the spamminess of it is a big reason why.
You can also find a little piece of Halo in every current FPS. It doesn't mean Halo ruined FPS', it just means that's where the ball got rolling.
I don't like the a lack of ADS in some games is considered a negative.
If it wasn't for Halo, there would be no defense force for not having it.
The Librarian
Banned
No, dear. Not hating as in you hate it, but hating on it as you're doing now. You can't blame the game. You can blame its success, but you can't blame the game.
Unknown One
Member
It's just a fancy zoom that blocks 1/3 to 1/2 of your screen while slowing down your aiming.
Iron sights are worthless.
Iron sights are worthless.
... on consoles it does.
Poimandres
Member
Yeah, I know. I was just getting up on my high horse and defending twitchy shooters.
Someone said it best earlier. The real culprit for the way shooters are today is the controller. And I say this as someone who likes to play FPS on controller sometimes! (I use my mouse left handed, so getting the configuration right can be a pain sometimes)
Uiki
Member
Yeah, but tripwire has no business on consoles...
If you are a old school multiplayer fan, you DON'T play on console.
I mean, my english is fucked, but i think it's pretty simple to understand that the old school/skilled shooters=pc ....... casual, fun, brainless shooters=consoles. And the steam stats seems to point in this direction. I don't see the point in comparing two completely different crowds.
Oh, ro2 has less than 900 players a day, counterstrike+tf2 150k....maybe that's it.
halo and call of duty popularized the genre on a platform it just isn't suited for and introduced bad mechanics, sure, but i wouldn't put the blame on bungie or activision. it's more down to the relative unpopularity of pc gaming, companies like id, valve, and others failing to release and market new iterations of their games, other developers not stepping up and filling that void, and the masses of people who choose to play games like cod and halo
the best thing that can happen for the genre is pc becoming a more popular platform for games and developers starting to make old school shooters
the best thing that can happen for the genre is pc becoming a more popular platform for games and developers starting to make old school shooters
12 years later and people are still trying to make this argument?
endresults
Member
Then how can you blame CoD?
The Librarian
Banned
I don't blame CoD. If a developer introduces elements of CoD that I think aren't needed, I blame the developer and CoD's success. I don't blame any particular Call of Duty game.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
So dude is mad because people don't like his game as much as another game.
Sucks to be him.
RO2 was broken as shit when launched... and if he thinks they could ever get the success of CoD with something like RO they are hugely mistaken... it was never going to happen.
Sucks to be him.
RO2 was broken as shit when launched... and if he thinks they could ever get the success of CoD with something like RO they are hugely mistaken... it was never going to happen.
High five, I can agree with this. After q2 and tribes I pretty much retired from 1st person shooter online games. None was as much fun or challenging sense, much like any mmo after the original eq.
i think his point is that people choose to play these games and people choose to develop them
so either blame the developers, the players, or both
My love of shooters has sort of been killed off by the whole unlock through level up thing COD introduced. I've always liked the idea of both teams starting off on an even playing field in shooter games like in Halo games before Reach and pretty much every other shooter.
I think it's fine that Call of Duty has a system where you can unlock stuff and level up, it works really well for that type of game. My only problem with it is the influence that it seems to have over all other games in the genre. Now I can't play a game without dealing with other players spawning with different loadouts so that they might have an advantage or disadvantage based entirely off what they choose in a lobby menu.
I've personally always liked the Counter Strike approach where you can customize your set up throughout the game but everyone still starts out evenly.
But yeah I'm fine with COD in itself but I really think other devs attempting to emulate the game to appeal to it's audience has a very negative effect on the genre.
I think it's fine that Call of Duty has a system where you can unlock stuff and level up, it works really well for that type of game. My only problem with it is the influence that it seems to have over all other games in the genre. Now I can't play a game without dealing with other players spawning with different loadouts so that they might have an advantage or disadvantage based entirely off what they choose in a lobby menu.
I've personally always liked the Counter Strike approach where you can customize your set up throughout the game but everyone still starts out evenly.
But yeah I'm fine with COD in itself but I really think other devs attempting to emulate the game to appeal to it's audience has a very negative effect on the genre.
Poimandres
Member
My man. Quake 2 DM was rad as hell. Easily my most played Quake game, with some of the best level design of all time.
Funnily enough, Quake 2 is the black sheep on the Quake family though. People love to bitch about the weapon balance etc
so much nonsense in that article and in this thread.
the main problem is that devs are focusing on all this MMO style addictive crap rather than making a game with a system that is fun and rewarding on its own
COD4 had a good system, its just been stretched and reshaped so many times that nothing else good can come of it, its like Marge's Chanel dress on that one simpsons episode. it isn't COD's fault that every other game tries to copy them.
halo is the original no skill shooter? lol. I exclusively gamed on PC in the 90s, I played Half Life, Q3 and UT all before Halo but it was still pretty mindblowing to me when it came out. all the elements came together to make something really great. people who were playing SEAL TEAM on pc probably thought that q3 was stupid and ruining shooters too.
the main problem is that devs are focusing on all this MMO style addictive crap rather than making a game with a system that is fun and rewarding on its own
COD4 had a good system, its just been stretched and reshaped so many times that nothing else good can come of it, its like Marge's Chanel dress on that one simpsons episode. it isn't COD's fault that every other game tries to copy them.
halo is the original no skill shooter? lol. I exclusively gamed on PC in the 90s, I played Half Life, Q3 and UT all before Halo but it was still pretty mindblowing to me when it came out. all the elements came together to make something really great. people who were playing SEAL TEAM on pc probably thought that q3 was stupid and ruining shooters too.