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[generic_username]

So should we expect the details at e3?

The PS4K thread that spoke of a launch first quarter 2017 seemed to poo-poo the idea of hearing anything official of substance until close to that date. The risk being that existing PS4 console sales would suffer once potential buyers knew that a more powerful version was right around the corner.

They wont announce it until the month it is ready for release.

 

[MogCakes]

And there is not one single good reason why people should disagree apart from wahhh I dont have the best version of the game. Here is the thing - You never did. PC version was always superior 99% of the time.

That's a really presumptive statement, don't you think? People care about value proposition and are looking at the longterm implications. Your comment is rather disingenuous to all of that. Why is it these aggressive comments only come from supporters? You don't see people on the other side of the fence attacking people hyped up for the NEO.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

Despair and shouting for 2 more months. At least.

It will be this.

Both could be true. Some people will be fine with extra work others won't. The fact is its extra work.

I am sure both are true. That is what I was mostly getting at. There is no need to make sweeping statements about this "fucking over" devs and what not (not saying you did, of course!). Even if it is "extra work", there are benefits to this as well.

Well the thread isn't titled "every dev hates the Neo"

It is "most" though. I was just pointing out that this isn't heavily leaning any one way. Of course, reading through this thread would have you thinking this is just a complete and utter burden on devs.

I believe the issue is divisive as opposed to being this one sided rejection that Colin seems to believe

I mean even he acknowledged to Greg that reactions are mixed despite that Twitter post

Its safe to safe we are likely seeing a near even split on iterative consoles

At least thats how Gaf appears to be

Agreed.

 

[Audioboxer]

So should we expect the details at e3?

The PS4K thread that spoke of a launch first quarter 2017 seemed to poo-poo the idea of hearing anything official of substance until close to that date. The risk being that existing PS4 console sales would suffer once potential buyers knew that a more powerful version was right around the corner.

Personally I think the constant rumours/leaks and chats may force hand for E3, if it's not already planned for then.

Journalists are going to go all ham on 4k/Neo questions at E3 as well.

 

[kinggroin]

They focus on the version that sells the most copies. Thats never been PC and if cross-gen is any indicator, it will no longer be PS4.

Console gamers dont miss out on any PC gameplay features.

We've seen online-gaming player count differences due to performance gaps.

Also, your first sentence, focusing on the version that sells the most, pretty much invalidates your fear.

The OG PS4 has the highest install base. By fucking far.

 

[Curufinwe]

I agree. This generation proves the majority AAA console sales come from the newest hardware. Devs did not care in the slightest about PS360's 160 million install base when making Black Ops 3, Shadow of Mordor, etc.

Because the PS3 was seven years old by then.

 

[Mister Megative]

That's fine, but you are a clear minority in my opinion.

If you need to be on the cutting edge, go PC.

The minority in your opinion, as opposed to an actual statistic.

I don't....what?

 

[Mezoly]

Is it really "extra work" though?

We dont know key development details but the leak does tell us that the core components are mostly the same or iterative upgrades of the same exact product line

At least there will be some extra testing work needed if devs are not planning on doing an enhanced version for ps4k.

 

[blankempathy]

Or, make game A FOR the OG PS4 as always. Cause, like, 40 million people own it.

Then go easy on themselves with regards to development and allow some minor visual changes on the new model (AA, stable framerate, PC version textures).

Again, the "extra work for devs means less games for everyone" fear, seems overblown.

Obviously this won't be a huge deal for games that are exclusives but when so many companies struggle to release games on multiplatform platforms already of course the extra work will be a factor.
Bad ports already exist. Games are already releasing with performance issues on both consoles. So how is the extra work not going to further aggravate these two issues? And you know whats going to happen because it always does. Publishers will have devs focus on the platforms that are making them the most money. We've seen this before as recently as last year with Warner brothers not releasing dlc content for mkx for pc. Or releasing a broken mess of Arkham knight.

 

[kinggroin]

I agree. This generation proves the majority AAA console sales come from the newest hardware. Devs did not care in the slightest about PS360's 160 million install base when making Black Ops 3, Shadow of Mordor, etc.

7 years of support not enough?!? You're talking about the PS3, aged as fuck, versus the PS4.

Year 7!

 

[Papacheeks]

The games you mentioned run as they do, and I suspect their kind will still exist in the future, even without the PS4K being a factor. If the hardware architecture is the same, I don't see how it would need two different development teams for PS4 and PS4K. Let alone how it's supposed to affect the 1st party titles negatively.

As for VR...
http://www.roadtovr.com/gdc-2016-sony-playstation-vr-development-and-innovations-live-blog-11am-pst/

...so I don't see how the games would run like shit on the PS4. Naturally some visual sacrifices have to be made to reach the goal, but that was already known before the PS4K came along.

But the reason those shitty optimized messes exist is because they were chasing the pixel rabbit with their poorly optimized engine. And that won't change if anything once a better spec machine is introduced they will go ahead with their original game code that has issues, and try to push more pixels adding more issues during gameplay.

There's a reason last gen ended on such a highnote. It was because they were challenged to get the most out of the hardware by doubling down on their code/engine optimization and communication with Sony/MS engineers to get the games running the best they could for each platform.

You add in another sku it add's more work, and more temptation to not have to optimize or be creative in how they approached performance.

Sometimes during development you render the whole game differently, or change the way something looks, that sometimes actually changes the game for the better. Borderlands comes to mind, as well as UC4 and Witcher 3.

All games that went through drastic changes, and for the most part were all for the better and they didn't have a more powerful sku as a crutch to lean on.

 

[7DollarHagane]

I think this is a bad move all around.

Wait for another few years and do a real generational leap.

It's not like every game is pushing technical boundaries right now anyway. Look at what uncharted 4 is doing and how far away most multiplatform development is from that kind of fidelity.

 

[OfTheOverflow]

Still blows my mind why Sony decided this is a good idea while having the highest install base and incredible looking games as-is.

 

[orochi91]

So should we expect the details at e3?

Sony has to address this at E3.

It would be insane to let this kind of news fester for months on end, up until launch month; detractors, like Colin, would dictate the tone of conversations regarding the console.

Seriously, can you imagine waiting until Q1 2017 to get an info blowout on PS4K?

 

[Audioboxer]

Still blows my mind why Sony decided this is a good idea while having the highest install base and incredible looking games as-is.

Fear of PSVR not having the legs on the current PS4 to make it to PS5?

Sony has to address this at E3.

It would be insane to let this kind of news fester for months on end, up until launch month.

Seriously, can you imagine waiting until Q1 2017 to get an info blowout on PS4K?

Release looks like it might be October (same as VR).

 

[Hawk269]

No but the tweet says "most devs". Which is making me call into question the validity of Colin's claim and his source.

That's the issue. He could of spoken to 3 people which 2 said they hated it and that be the majority. We have no context to it.


Give me a sec....i just spoke to consumers and the majority just said they would be cool with it.

I literally just asked 3 coworkers which are gamers and all 3 said they would not mind a more powerful box. We need context to truely see what "most devs" actually means.

 

[Movalpolos]

I sincerely doubt he's spoken to 'most' devs, so yeah, while I think there are no doubt developers who aren't happy with it, the 'most' part seems disingenuous and agenda driven.

Completely.

We have devs all over the world. When he says "most" what is he talking about? Where is he talking about? North America? South America? Asia? Europe? All of them?

I'm in no way convinced this "source" has spoken to the majority of devs about the issue. That is so far-fetched to me that I'm actually shocked that some people aren't more skeptical about his claim.

I'm absolutely convinced this is Colin injecting his own agenda driven drivel.
He needs to be called out for this.

 

[generic_username]

That's a really presumptive statement, don't you think? People care about value proposition and are looking at the longterm implications. Your comment is rather disingenuous to all of that. Why is it these aggressive comments only come from supporters? You don't see people on the other side of the fence attacking people hyped up for the NEO.

I dont really care about PS4K. I am not even buying it. People care about value proposition and hence there will be cheaper option and a more expensive option. And no nothing I said is aggressive.

 

[NullPointer]

Seriously, can you imagine waiting until Q1 2017 to get an info blowout on PS4K?

I can hardly imagine waiting until next month ;p

 

[Scrotum Phillips]

You say technology is growing for pc which it is, but that has not translated into games that can not be put on consoles, or games that can't be developed on consoles that run on PC?

Please show me games on PC that have the presentation, animation that exclusive games on console have?(maybe Overwatch, but it's also coming to console).

I'v yet to see games in the vein of uncharted, infamous, horizon, TLG, sunset overdrive, ect be developed by a PC developer or something similar.

Shotty game engines/code and inefficiency is what kills this industry. Always has, please show me in the history of video games where having more power benefited console development for the long run? Because N64 expansion packs only band-aid the issues that console had, and not many games used it. ANd in the end the weaker console had more games, and sold more.

Same goes for PS2/XBOX era, and for PS3/XBOX/Wii u era. Wii U was basically better equipped than Xbox360, and PS3, yet people still bought games in droves on PS3, xbox despite maybe better versions of certain third party being on that system.

Issues are with developers and their engines, not the consoles. If ps3,360 were still getting games like GTA V at the end of their cycles there's no excuse in less than 3 years to have a mid gen refresh.

Its on the publisher's and developers to get their shit together. Stop blaming the hardware. If your game ran like shit on everything, it's not the hardware.

Generally, higher-end PC's run the same games as consoles at higher framerate/resolution than consoles do. Sure, there are some exceptions, but that is generally the case. As time goes on, this will only increase in frequency. PS4K would increase performance for those that care enough for it (most probably wouldn't care, but I would!).

I agree that it's a bummer devs are struggling with their engines/games, but we've seen their pattern now and it's unlikely they'll just suddenly become more efficient as they have to cater to a wider-range of technology. Better technology allows them to brute force some of their possible inefficiencies they are having currently.

 

[kinggroin]

Obviously this won't be a huge deal for games that are exclusives but when so many companies struggle to release games on multiplatform platforms already of course the extra work will be a factor.
Bad ports already exist. Games are already releasing with performance issues on both consoles. So how is the extra work not going to further aggravate these two issues?

I won't argue that their will be, at SOME level, extra work IF a dev wants to do anything worth talking about on the PS4K.

But think, imagine a patch released for The Witcher 3 that improves performance, more people may pick it up to take advantage of it on the new system. Increased sales.

 

[Breakage]

So according to what I've read we're not going to see games with exclusive gameplay features that take advantage of the uprated hardware. If that's the case doesn't this limit the potential of the Neo? It will always just be the PS4 that makes games look a bit nicer even tho it can do "more".

 

[El_Chino]

Actually we are happy with this.

It make sense to us

 

[The God]

It doesn't really matter what he means by "most devs". There are some for it and some against it.

 

[Curufinwe]

Still blows my mind why Sony decided this is a good idea while having the highest install base and incredible looking games as-is.

They likely realized a generational leap won't be possible in a reasonable timeframe and didn't think the PS4 would last six or seven years.

 

[Movalpolos]

Can Colin even at least comment on how many devs his source spoke with?
That wouldn't be sacrificing anybody.

 

[Audioboxer]

It doesn't really matter what he means by "most devs". There are some for it and some against it.

Well we got some devs saying CELL was great and powerful

Spoiler

probably all 1st party lol

 

[Bolivar687]

7 years of support not enough?!? You're talking about the PS3, aged as fuck, versus the PS4.

Year 7!

Age is just a number!

Honestly, the gamers with the newest console hardware are the ones pre-ordering and buying these games day one. Graphics drives demand in the console market and PC is a complete non starter for the great majority of consumers for AAA games.

I do think it's feasible for PS4 owners to be left behind.

 

[MogCakes]

And no nothing I said is aggressive.

Dismissing the negativity as simple whining with a non-supported definitive statement is an aggressive move.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

That's the issue. He could of spoken to 3 people which 2 said they hated it and that be the majority. We have no context to it.


Give me a sec....i just spoke to consumers and the majority just said they would be cool with it.

I literally just asked 3 coworkers which are gamers and all 3 said they would not mind a more powerful box. We need context to truely see what "most devs" actually means.

colin also tends to embellish things in order to drive a point home. he enjoys "being right" far too much.

 

[CosmicQueso]

It doesn't really matter what he means by "most devs". There are some for it and some against it.

But most isn't some. Some for and some against is one thing, most being against carries a different weight, no?

 

[sun-drop]

i simply do not see how this doens't impact base ps4 sw devlopment .... through pure compettion with outher devs , in order to make yr game look great, they will have to throw money and people at devloping a great looking neo version ... and who does the base ps4 stream work?

we are going to see games promoted with neo media, and then we'll find the base ps4 version basically gets the "turn this effect off" treatment. and how does that go to the design of how a game looks?

in the past you could count on every year games on a static console look better and better .. look at the uncharted series. will be able to say that going fwd ... if there was a uncharted 5 on ps4 base ... would it look better than UC4 ... looking at the way thinsg go in PC land..i'd suggest nope ...

and it's the worst of the Pc dev world coming to console ..not only can you expect to see Ps4 base sw suffer due to split dev and creative resources .. but neo versions of games wont be designed with ture unbounded neo specs in mind, poly budgets etc will all have to be considered along side thinking " will this size map work on PS4 base? " ... lowest common denominator.


so awesome, not.

 

[Firmus_Anguis]

This is the thing that has me worried. As well as what Osiris said about regular PS4 games being gimped by comparison. No one bought a PS4 expecting it to be replaced in it's THIRD fucking year! Sony didn't hint at this possibility, they only talked about this generation being short, about 5 years.

http://gamingbolt.com/mark-cerny-defends-against-claims-that-ps4-will-be-obsolete-in-a-few-years

Just read the shit Cerny said! The PS-Neo ontradicts every-fucking-thing he said! So people have a right to be pissed. They misled people. When questioned on the longevity of the PS4 he had this to say:

Many of the teams take about five years to develop a game. As a result, they need a stable specification during that period and that is what a console provides, ie about one hundred million devices that share the same basic specification.

The console also tends to have higher performance than would be expected by the cost due to a lightweight operating system and the fact that developers enjoy many years to study the specific architecture.

To give just one example, we have adapted the ‘hardware’ to allow the ‘shaders’ computing are used in traditional graphics interface. This is the kind of technique that we believe will be used within three or four years of the life cycle of the console to increase the graphical quality of the games.

The translation errors are due to gamingbolt essentially google translating the interview from Elmundo -

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/05/24/navegante/1369378180.html

Anyone that speaks spanish around here? Would love some more tidbits from that interview.

 

[kinggroin]

So according to what I've read we're not going to see games with exclusive gameplay features that take advantage of the uprated hardware. If that's the case doesn't this limit the potential of the Neo? It will always just be the PS4 that makes games look a bit nicer even tho it can do "more".

Pretty much.

At most, NEO version has support for more players on the same system.


Meh.

 

[Wishmaster92]

I know you said Imo, but lol wut?

Show me a pc game that looks as good as uncharted 4 or has character models looking as good until dawn. They're both amazing looking games.

 

[Synless]

Expected.

The PS4K seems like a system made for nobody. Bad for consumers, bad for developers.

It was made for my friends and I. Nothing bad for consumers about it. This isn't preventing you from playing shit on the previous ps4 model or anyone else.

 

[kinggroin]

Age is just a number!

Honestly, the gamers with the newest console hardware are the ones pre-ordering and buying these games day one. Graphics drives demand in the console market and PC is a complete non starter for the great majority of consumers for AAA games.

I do think it's feasible for PS4 owners to be left behind.

Guess we'll see.

But if I'm a developer, I wouldn't risk my financial investment by screwing OG owners. Not at year 3.

The PS4K won't have 40 million new users day one. No matter how hardcore these gamers are.

Again, by the time PS4 OG users start to get left behind, a new console will be out anyway (and you'll have the value proposition PS4K to play PS5 games on)

 

[BigRedOne]

Are we sure these unnamed sources are reliable and not just Colin acting like a curmudgeon who gets his games for free and still complains and whines about it?

 

[blankempathy]

I won't argue that their will be, at SOME level, extra work IF a dev wants to do anything worth talking about on the PS4K.

But think, imagine a patch released for The Witcher 3 that improves performance, more people may pick it up to take advantage of it on the new system. Increased sales.

Everything is speculation at this point. If the ps4k bombs obviously things will return to the status quo. If the ps4k is a big enough success and carves out a big enough user base then yes I do think publishers and devs are going to want to use that sku as their lead version. After all bigger better graphics are what captures the average gamers attention. Its naive to believe that the optional power will just be there as some kind of backup option. Especially when devs are already trying to push the most they can out of the newest consoles.

 

[Hubble]

Sounds like a bogus tweet to fit his bias. I'm sure there are many in the industry who are equally excited to keep consoles more up to date with fast changing technology.

 

[Hawk269]

So according to what I've read we're not going to see games with exclusive gameplay features that take advantage of the uprated hardware. If that's the case doesn't this limit the potential of the Neo? It will always just be the PS4 that makes games look a bit nicer even tho it can do "more".

It's up to the devs. Sony is mandating that It runs on both units and that it cant be inferior to the PS4 version, but after that devs can add more, nothing exclusive like a bonus level or additional skins etc.

As a PC gamer and console gamer there is a lot devs could do to enhance image quality. Better AA, better shadows, afx16 etc. I don't think that it will be just better res/framerate. There are a lot I techniques where IQ can be drastically improved.

 

[Curufinwe]

colin also tends to embellish things in order to drive a point home. he enjoys "being right" far too much.

Kinda funny, given how often he is wrong.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Well it makes perfect sense, don't forget (already mentioned but repeating for a new page)
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/bioware-founder-on-ps4xbox-one-upgrades-itd-be-a-g/1100-6438664/

The founder of Bioware said it'd be a pain in the ass, and he's right. It's extra certification work and a misstep.

 

[The God]

But most isn't some. Some for and some against is one thing, most being against carries a different weight, no?

I'm guessing he means most devs he's spoken to, either way I don't think it matters how many.

 

[Snaggle]

I agree with the statement in the OP, reading that Giantbomb thread about all the extra requirements basically programming every game to support the boost in specs and the original specs seems like a huge chore for the developers as it is compulsory.

I also as a consumer am quite happy with the original Ps4 lasting the entire generation, I don't really need incremental upgrades but at the same time I like having the best hardware iteration so I kinda having my having my hand forced to buy this thing when it comes out. I'll do it but am just really not happy about the whole thing.

A huge misstep for Sony this gen and they were doing so so well.

 

[LostDonkey]

Show me a pc game that looks as good as uncharted 4 or has character models looking as good until dawn. They're both amazing looking games.

Rise of the tomb raider
Ryse
Crysis 3
Battlefront

Have you seen PC games these days??

Uncharted 4 looks very, very good.

But better than ANY PC game? Come on now, that's a ridiculous statement.

 

[geordiemp]

I would be if you suddenly told me I had to implement an additional 'neo' mode in my game due out this fall. Who is going to pay for that extra time testing it?

I wonder if some smaller devs can't afford to 'get used to it' and will just keep their game on PC, instead.

If the dev objects to optimising for 2 targets as opposed to 1000 variations then why should we care ?

Your post makes zero sense, PC games have infinite levels of power settings...we just ask for 2.

 

[Alucrid]

I agree with the statement in the OP, reading that Giantbomb thread about all the extra requirements basically programming every game to support the boost in specs and the original specs seems like a huge chore for the developers as it is compulsory.

I also as a consumer am quite happy with the original Ps4 lasting the entire generation, I don't really need incremental upgrades but at the same time I like having the best hardware iteration so I kinda having my having my hand forced to buy this thing when it comes out. I'll do it but am just really not happy about the whole thing.

A huge misstep for Sony this gen and they were doing so so well.

it's not even out

 

[kinggroin]

Everything is speculation at this point. If the ps4k bombs obviously things will return to the status quo. If the ps4k is a big enough success and carves out a big enough user base then yes I do think publishers and devs are going to want to use that sku as their lead version. After all bigger better graphics are what captures the average gamers attention. Its naive to believe that the optional power will just be there as some kind of backup option. Especially when devs are already trying to push the most they can out of the newest consoles.

Not in two years, I can't buy that. The PS4 will be five years old and have experienced a normal cycle (with a huge ass install base). By that point, it may as well be left behind.

 

[blankempathy]

Rise of the tomb raider
Ryse
Crysis 3
Battlefront

Have you seen PC games these days??

Uncharted 4 looks very, very good.

But better than ANY PC game? Come on now, that's a ridiculous statement.

Don't bother. So many people made the same argument with uncharted 2/last of us and so on. Let them believe what they want.

Not in two years, I can't buy that. The PS4 will be five years old and have experienced a normal cycle (with a huge ass install base). By that point, it may as well be left behind.

Who even knows whats considered a normal cycle anymore. Right now I'm in the very much wait and see camp.