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COMICS! |OT| July 2016. Everyone Loves A Hero, Everyone Loves You

S

Sou Da

Member
dan2026 said:
If you look a couple of posts up you will see why I like it.
In some ways because it feels rerun esq. Comfy even.
Just good comics, with well written characters.

Also a sympathetic Clayface is great.
Click to expand...

I guess a DC Law&Order ain't a bad thing to have. I still think Tim could hold his own solo though especially since Red "Black Hole of creatives" Hood can.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
BenjaminBirdie said:
nah, i believe hawkeye's testimony. that's why bruce picked him
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But we have the benefit of a close-up of Banner's eyes right as Hawkeye lets the arrow fly. Hawkeye insists later in court that he "saw green" but we can look at the panel and, well, there's no green there. At all. Tony's testimony even seems to confirm this.

Hawkeye may "see differently," he may have really good vision which is what makes him good at what he does. But he went into the situation with a bias and it colored his response. I mean, not only did he go in with a bias (having been present for the shared vision in #2), he went in with the heavy responsibility of Bruce's request on his shoulders. I'm sure he thought, if this goes wrong, if he hulks out and kills everyone, that's on me.

So color me super, super skeptical of his testimony.
 
D

dan2026

Member
Sou Da said:
I guess a DC Law&Order ain't a bad thing to have. I still think Tim could hold his own solo though especially since Red "Black Hole of creatives" Hood can.
Click to expand...

I'm sure he could.
But giving him a team to play off seems to be working.
Tynion IV seems to get writing Tim at least.
 
B

Brianimaniac

Banned
echoshifting said:
But we have the benefit of a close-up of Banner's eyes right as Hawkeye lets the arrow fly. Hawkeye insists later in court that he "saw green" but we can look at the panel and, well, there's no green there. At all. Tony's testimony even seems to confirm this.

Hawkeye may "see differently," he may have really good vision which is what makes him good at what he does. But he went into the situation with a bias and it colored his response. I mean, not only did he go in with a bias (having been present for the shared vision in #2), he went in with the heavy responsibility of Bruce's request on his shoulders. I'm sure he thought, if this goes wrong, if he hulks out and kills everyone, that's on me.

So color me super, super skeptical of his testimony.
Click to expand...
Would the arrow even work if he was already becoming Hulk? It's a situation where I believe you kinda have to act somewhat early.
 
A

Aceun

Member
echoshifting said:
And she did it because she didn't actually doubt for a second that she was right. Despite the complete lack of Hulk in this story, well, it was still gonna happen so Hawkeye totally did the right thing.

So, yeah. She's wrong.
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It's a fair point, but Carol doesn't represent the Inhumans, the Avengers or the X-men. They were all there on their own volition. I think her response is way too militaristic and ironically removes all accountability from her, but the decision to go there and talk to Banner was not hers alone. Hell, Tony was there and was practically on her side for most of the issue.

The only thing Carol did wrong is have a complete and total disregard for a member of her own community. If I were a superhero, I would not want to side with her. One day we're chummy and the next day I'm suspected of a crime so sayonara sucker. Yeaahahhh, no thanks.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
(More CWII #3 spoilers)

Also, are we really meant to believe that Hawkeye was the first person in that crew to have any indication Bruce was about to hulk out because he "sees differently" when there are two Spider-Men standing literally right there and nobody's spider-sense is going off? Nah. He had an itchy trigger finger and all these what-ifs running through his head and he fucked up.
 
S

Sibersk Esto

Banned
echoshifting said:
(More CWII #3 spoilers)

Also, are we really meant to believe that Hawkeye was the first person in that crew to have any indication Bruce was about to hulk out because he "sees differently" when there are two Spider-Men standing literally right there and nobody's spider-sense is going off? Nah. He had an itchy trigger finger and all these what-ifs running through his head and he fucked up.
Click to expand...

That's what I was wondering.
No Spider-Sense warnings? Nothing?
 
B

Brianimaniac

Banned
echoshifting said:
(More CWII #3 spoilers)

Also, are we really meant to believe that Hawkeye was the first person in that crew to have any indication Bruce was about to hulk out because he "sees differently" when there are two Spider-Men standing literally right there and nobody's spider-sense is going off? Nah. He had an itchy trigger finger and all these what-ifs running through his head and he fucked up.
Click to expand...
Not what-ifs going through his head -- he actually experienced a future where Hulk killed every person there. I know it's hard to put yourself in people's shoes with abstract sci-fi concepts like this, but he actually experienced the death of all those people. Didn't just see it. He experienced it. You can't dismiss that with "he has an itchy trigger finger". The weight of that is tremendous. Not just the responsibility, but shouldering that responsibility having experienced the tragedy you're trying to avoid.

Aceun said:
No doubt about it. Hawkeye clearly f'd up
Click to expand...
If that's clear, then it's Bendis who fucked up, because the only clear thing to me is that this is meant to be the subject of debate.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
Riskington said:
Would the arrow even work if he was already becoming Hulk? It's a situation where I believe you kinda have to act somewhat early.
Click to expand...

Well, it depends on who you ask, I think. Two interpretations are presented in the issue.

In the flashback meeting between Bruce and Clint, Bruce says -

"If I hulk out again...ever again...I want you to use that." (referring to whatever he invented)

"I dream as him. I dream rage. I wake up with the taste of blood in my mouth. I wake up and I'm not sure if it happened or not. Sometimes I have to turn on the news to make sure. And I know, you know, everyone knows...I may wake up one day it's not a dream. And if that happens...it means I have tried everything else and nothing else worked. I need you to promise you'll stop me once and for all."

But then in court Hawkeye says, "IF ever there was a chance that he would transform into the hulk, ever again, for whatever reason...he wanted me to put him down."

Which seems to be a direct contradiction of what Banner actually asks him. He doesn't say, if there's a chance. He says, if he DOES.

I dunno guys, the saddest part about this to me is that Bruce trusted the wrong person with his life. Hawkeye heard what he wanted to hear in that conversation. He saw what he wanted to see when everyone was confronting Bruce. He was about as far from making an objective decision as you can get, and he acted anyway.
 
V

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Freezasaurus said:
So is Wacky Raceland still good or did #2 drop the ball?
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Every time there's a flashback before the Apocalypse, there's a caption that says "San Francisco: Before the Apocalypse". And every time its in the present, its says "San Francisco: After the Apocalypse". One of these captions shows up on pretty much every page in increasingly hilarious ways.
 
B

Brianimaniac

Banned
echoshifting said:
Well, it depends on who you ask, I think. Two interpretations are presented in the issue.

In the flashback meeting between Bruce and Clint, Bruce says -

"If I hulk out again...ever again...I want you to use that." (referring to whatever he invented)

"I dream as him. I dream rage. I wake up with the taste of blood in my mouth. I wake up and I'm not sure if it happened or not. Sometimes I have to turn on the news to make sure. And I know, you know, everyone knows...I may wake up on day it's not a dream. And if that happens...it means I have tried everything else and nothing else worked. I need you to promise you'll stop me once and for all."

But then in court Hawkeye says, "IF ever there was a chance that he would transform into the hulk, ever again, for whatever reason...he wanted me to put him down."

Which seems to be a direct contradiction of what Banner actually asks him. He doesn't say, if there's a chance. He says, if he DOES.

I dunno guys, the saddest part about this to me is that Bruce trusted the wrong person with his life. Hawkeye heard what he wanted to hear in that conversation. He saw what he wanted to see when everyone was confronting Bruce. He was about as far from making an objective decision as you can get, and he acted anyway.
Click to expand...
I disagree so much. I think Clint did exactly what Banner wanted him to do, and is a hero for doing it. He did something that was difficult to do and very likely saved a lot of lives.

Tony and Carol are to blame. They're the ones who let Banner down and caused the whole situation. Clint is not the bad guy here. Tony and Carol are the ones that showed up with 50 people, being all accusatory and interfering with his research and testing and creating all the tension that made him ready to Hulk out. They failed their friend.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
Riskington said:
Not what-ifs going through his head -- he actually experienced a future where Hulk killed every person there. I know it's hard to put yourself in people's shoes with abstract sci-fi concepts like this, but he actually experienced the death of all those people. Didn't just see it. He experienced it. You can't dismiss that with "he has an itchy trigger finger". The weight of that is tremendous. Not just the responsibility, but shouldering that responsibility having experienced the tragedy you're trying to avoid.
Click to expand...

I'm not disputing that the weight must have been tremendous. What a terrible burden, to know that Bruce trusted him to keep anything like that from ever happening and to have basically lived this (alternate) future where he did (that's what it is by the way. These are all alternate futures because none of them have actually happened the way Ulysses saw them happening...possibly entirely due to the intervention of other characters, possibly not. We can't know).

When I say he had an itchy trigger finger, I'm not being dismissive of that burden, if anything I'm trying to acknowledge it. Like, he went in there trying to prevent that, specifically, from occurring, and that's why he had an itchy trigger finger.
 
B

Brianimaniac

Banned
echoshifting said:
I'm not disputing that the weight must have been tremendous. What a terrible burden, to know that Bruce trusted him to keep anything like that from ever happening and to have basically lived this (alternate) future where he did (that's what it is by the way. These are all alternate futures because none of them have actually happened the way Ulysses saw them happening...possibly entirely due to the intervention of other characters, possibly not. We can't know).

When I say he had an itchy trigger finger, I'm not being dismissive of that burden, if anything I'm trying to acknowledge it. Like, he went in there trying to prevent that, specifically, from occurring, and that's why he had an itchy trigger finger.
Click to expand...
And Banner was as afraid of that as Clint was. They both knew the reality of it because Clint experienced it and Banner said he actually dreams AS Hulk. So both of their fears are equal and both based on first-hand experience. I don't think you can blame Clint when Banner was also so terrified that he had a meeting to tell someone to kill him. This was as much a Banner suicide as anything.
 
D

dan2026

Member
Red Hood should of stayed a villain.

Its the Venom Syndrome.

As soon as they change a villain into an anti-hero, he becomes shit.
 
B

Brianimaniac

Banned
I have to leave, and I don't have anything more to add to the Civil War discussion anyway, but I appreciate the friendly debate. Glad this didn't go to shit like so many forums do.
 
T

tim1138

Member
Red Hood feels like a lost character from like Youngblood or some other 90s Rob Liefeld Image garbage. "Bro! What if we took a Batman like character and gave him guns and let him kill people and be EXXXXTREME! It'd be fucking EPIC bros!"

I'll never forget the dude in one of the Injustice threads who said Red Hood was his favorite character because he could relate to him. I don't remember who that poster was but I hope I'm never stuck in an elevator or something with them.
 
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