Comparing Horizon Zero Dawn and TLoZ: BoTW
- Thread starter Neoleo2143
- Start date
- Status
AquaWateria
Member
Pretty much my reaction.
Neoleo2143
Member
Because it makes good weapons have value and the curve will force you to use them. Also not engaging enemies would make you lose out on quite a bit of loot like fire arrows or bomb arrows. Shame you didn't give much thought to this idea.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Have you ever played a souls game? Or Let It Die?
humansarehorses
Member
What good weapons? Everything they've shown so far has shit durability. What curve? I know I'm going to lose out on crappy loot (like fire arrows) if I avoid fodder enemies; I'm also not going to break the crappy weapons on them either.
It's seriously Sticker Star all over again. There's no point in engaging most enemies. Oh, I get a new sticker for those I wasted? Cool! I'm going to ignore these enemies entirely then because they're a waste of time.
Souls games don't have weapons with shit durability, you can fix the weapons in Souls games, there are other reasons to explore and the enemies are actually fun to engage.
are u serious rn
They did hint at dungeons back in 2015:
https://youtu.be/-dsSErFaKng?t=2m16s
Zelda is all about discovery. I hope they don't spoil too much. As far as I'm concerned, I already know way too much.
Franz Brötchen
Banned
It would be all too easy to just ignore shit posts like this, but I've come to realize that there aren't prominent cases where irreversible weapon durability isn't thought of as shit. Monster Hunter, Souls games don't count because of the repair system that in my view mainly acts as balancing method to otherwise overpowered weapons.
But I am extremely optimistic that the world will be built around the fact that weapons degrade/become just underpowered for the task ahead and therefore, weapons will just drop accordingly.
Any Dark Souls player will remember the amount of never-used but still looted weapons they pick up but never use because of either the skill points don't suffice or they are just plain worse before time consuming upgrading. I always kind of hated those wasted opportunities, and precisely because of both weapon deterioration AND frequent drops this should be rectified.
Yeah, that analogy doesn't work because Zelda's combat will be very good instead of shit.
He is talking about Horizon not Zelda.
humansarehorses
Member
Yep. Weapon durability and availability is just like Sticker Star's. And just like Sticker Star, there's no reason to engage in the game's bad combat system.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yea they do. And there are plenty of other reasons to explore in a Zelda game BOTW probably most of all has more valid reasons to explore than any other souls game, and why're you trying to imply that the enemies aren't fun to engage when we've seen a multitude of ways to engage the enemies on top of their interesting AI routines. The game looks like it has the best combat out of any Zelda game based on the amount of moves Link has from the start.
AquaWateria
Member
Am I really seeing a post that compares Zelda to Sticker Star right now?
Lmaooo.
Lmaooo.
Why is the combat system bad again? And that comparison does absolutely make no sense. The circumstances and how the game is designed around the weapon durability is completely different.
Neoleo2143
Member
Ok, I'll humor you. Fire Arrows expand your creative options in many ways, which make them valuable. There's also soldiers broadswords, fire rods, good shields, bomb arrows which are vital for guardian fights, rubies, sapphires and opals which are probably the main crafting materials and are valuable for selling. You can choose to ignore combat but it's eventually going to be forced and you'll likely hit a damage wall, which is a key difference in the mechanics from Sticker Star, the weapons have stats.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
I played Bloodborne and I NEVER lost a weapon because you can repair them and they don't break every 10 minutes.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Neither do the weapons in Zelda. I'd much rather have weapons that can be broken than sit through a loading screen to go back to the hub to repair my weapons.
humansarehorses
Member
Franz Brötchen;226757877 said:
Calls my post shit and then concludes that no one considers irreversible weapon durability as anything other than shit.
Some people man.
Franz Brötchen;226757877 said:
Let's say that there's some progression in the game where weapons in one level of progression are not useful in the succeeding level.
Then still, what's the point of the fodder enemies in each level? Why explore the whole game world for more crappy weapons that aren't even going to be useful in the next level of progression?
Franz Brötchen;226757877 said:
Dark Souls offered plenty of reasons to explore, not just finding weapons or armor. It also had an enjoyable combat system that made fighting enemies fun on its own.
Zelda has never had good combat or engaging enemy encounters. Like that's going to change now.
Neoleo2143
Member
Which is why the mechanic in bloodborne is terrible and pointless like most of the souls games? Why include a mechanic that has no impact on the gameplay? Repairing weapons is awful and should be removed from every game with durability or have durability stripped out if they can't support that.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
From the footage I have seen the weapons don't last long. Having to switch weapons because your equipment broke seems to be a core mechanic.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
It might be pointless, but I'd rather it be pointless than lose a weapon I really like using and having to resort to using whatever trash I have picked up along the way.
Neoleo2143
Member
So you're saying you don't mind mechanics that has no nuance and add mindless busywork? Please put some thought into what you're saying.
humansarehorses
Member
"Creative options" meaning... what, I can shoot some explosive crates to kill some goblins to replace my wasted weapon with another weapon that's going to be wasted soon after its used? How fun.
How do you know bomb arrows are vital for guardian fights? What are the importance of guardian fights anyway. So far there's no reason to engage them.
Since weapons pretty much fall from the sky like raindrops, even if there is some level of progression where early weapons aren't useful later in the game, I can spend a little bit of time sporadically to get weapons appropriate for how far I've progressed.
And I can still avoid the garbage in-between which is still pretty much like Sticker Star.
Combat in Zelda has no weight (including enemy attacks -- compare that to say, Artorias), enemies lack any real threat with boring movesets (again, think of Artorias), some Zeldas have had automated attacks (e.g. the parry in Wind Waker), etc.
Uh huh.
The durability system in botw is really interesting. We actually have to engage with it. And you'll never be without a weapon to fight with since everything in the game is a weapon on top of all the weapons you can acquire via enemies. It's gonna be interesting to see how they balance it.
They're obviously trying something different than the standard durability system, so try to open your mind and think about why things might be that way, instead of just complaining about it because you're not used to it.
They're obviously trying something different than the standard durability system, so try to open your mind and think about why things might be that way, instead of just complaining about it because you're not used to it.
Ocarina_117
Banned
I'm sure there's a way to get the Master Sword in BOTW.
Don't see weapon durability being an issue then.
Don't see weapon durability being an issue then.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Because it's the early game, stop being disengenous, it's absolutely a no brainer that mid-late game equipment won't break anywhere near as fast. Especially since there's crafting in the game as well.
Master sword was in the latest trailer.
People defend the bloodvial system as good game design so yea wouldn't be surprised to see "Yes I like mindnumbing busywork that could easily not be an issue" be raised as a positive.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
I rarely had to repair weapons so it never got to the point where it felt like busywork. I've thought about it. The weapons system in Zelda BOTW sucks to me and will probably be divisive overall. I can't remember any one saying "oh man I hate having to repair my weapons in Bloodborne/Souls because it is such a waste of time." It is a non-issue in those games.
humansarehorses
Member
I'm not complaining because it's something I'm not used to, I'm criticizing it because it's something I am used to: Sticker Star. There's no point in engaging enemies in that game. None. And so far, there's no reason to engage with fodder enemies in Zelda.
Neoleo2143
Member
It's ass because it is a non issue. If durability is meaningless, why is it a mechanic? And for that matter, why isn't armor in Bloodborne just cosmetic anyway, it doesn't do anything either. And for that matter why are there many RPG elements to begin with? What do they offer since bloodborne have so few builds compared to souls games? It could be just insight and echoes to buy items and it'd be fine and more tightly balanced.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
You haven't even played the fucking game we're talking about and keep projecting shit like "the combat is bad and there's no reason to engage with enemies," (when so far there is a shit ton of valid reasons seen in game like crafting items being dropped and ofc more loot, because you played a game that you think is similar, which would be hilarious if it wasn't so grating.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
How am I being disingenuous? I'm going by what they have shown me. Why should I expect something different later? If later weapons will actually last what is the point of a having so much disposable junk in the early game?
Moon Presence
Member
Weapon durability should be purged from any RPG.
humansarehorses
Member
You'd think that decades of Zelda entries and hours of footage of the newest would give gamers enough of an idea of how the combat system is going to be.
Like I said, more loot is not an excuse to kill enemies when you end up quickly using up loot you previously got to get new loot.
That's the garbage Sticker Star mentality.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Agreed I hate that mechanic. Being overburdened needs to go too.
How does the combat in the Breath of the Wild have no weight when different weapons have clearly different weight and the whole game is affected by real-time physics? Where do enemies have boring movesets when we've seen the complete opposite in the demo shown at TGA? What does Breath of the Wild have to do with Wind Waker?
So many assumptions and no answers. Sad!
Uh huh.
Because you're rewarded for progression.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Because it's the early game, progression, how does it work? It's almost like if enemies get stronger, then their weapons that we can steal will too? Seems like it's too complicated for you to figure that out? Fuck it, stay away from Let It Die dude. Don't want you shitting up the OT with "what's the point of fodder in an RPG?"
EDIT:Oh wait it's a ps4 exclusive so i'm sure you'll praise it to high heavens based on that fact alone.
Exactly, which is why one would wonder why you're trying to create a narrative that it's objectively bad. You're entire argument is based off of the incredibly stupid assumption that low weapon durability will be a constant and that weapons won't get stronger overtime as you progress culminating in the master sword.
lwilliams3
Member
There will likely be exceptions, but BOTW so far is set up so you can reach a goal in multiple angles. I don't consider that a bad thing.
LifeBrandRobot
Member
Good luck with that. The same thought process was implemented in Nioh and it was so hated that the developers took durability out of the game altogether. The idea is not as glamorous as you think.
humansarehorses
Member
Weight doesn't just refer to delayed reactions for heavier items. It's also the impact of the attacks. Which is hard to convey in words. Getting tossed about doesn't mean the attacks have weight either.
I haven't seen any enemies with interesting movesets. I definitely haven't seen anything on the level of Souls' boss designs.
It has to do with what you replied to:
Yeah, different vague circumstances changes everything.
LifeBrandRobot
Member
And the fact that this is a game with Zelda in its name will have zero biases towards it.
humansarehorses
Member
Why would one wonder about that unless one had a mental defect? You predict future performance based on the information available including past performance. Zelda has never had good combat. In the hours of footage shown, that doesn't look like it's going to change. It's probably going to be bad in BotW too.
Say that you do get a weapon that never degrades and can be upgraded so it's useful for the rest of the game.
Then still, what's the use in engaging fodder enemies for weapons with shit durability? There's no point.
Franz Brötchen
Banned
Get a dictionary, since this is clearly not what I wrote.
Or worse, even: What if right in the middle of the game I am just offered nothing but a text box insulting my family, what good have the previous 10h of playtime been???
Additionaly to the dictionary, go play a game that makes you happy instead of bothering us with strawman hypotheticals that only aim to talk shit (metaphorically, if you need this clarification)
Dude, maybe the weapon plus loot dropped is better than the one I fought the enemy with? Just as uhhhh, typically ALWAYS in action RPGs?
Joeshabadoo
Member
maybe so that you can work to preserve the life of some of your most powerful weapons until a point when they (and their very likely elemental damage buffs) can be most useful, or until you can get to a smithy to further strengthen or imbue them for increased durability/damage while still being able to snipe one of the more 'fodder' enemies with an arrow, grab his crude melee weapon and toss it at a leader to get him closer to the rest of his grunts before tossing a remote explosive out at them to finish off the lot and get some rare minerals or other crafting resources, also likely lowering the threat level posed to certain areas or nearby towns to make it safer for NPCs to traverse the world and the game's communities to grow?
hints about that later stuff have already been dropped A LOT in pre release footage, and given how this game is already bucking so many of the franchise trends and showcasing interwoven systems in the world how about we try to be educated and slightly hopeful optimists that a game will allow us to carve our own adventure out of it rather than be typical cynical gaming enthusiasts doomed to always look backward and remember the worst of times
both of these games more than deserve a chance and have displayed enough to players to generate excitement for different reasons. to already be calling ALL combat in this unreleased game both pointless AND shitty is incredibly short-sided. especially since we've already seen that AI in both titles is surprisingly adaptive and capable
edit: and just to drop in a couple of clear simple reasons why BotW's combat will move the series forward-
- the ability for perfectly timed dodges and shield parries to disarm foes and redirect damaging threats sent your way back out to others
- the ability to use the game's physics and your collection of powers to weaponize almost anything.
theyre showing a level of creativity at play which is very clearly forgeign to the series. if not completely foreign than certainly not highlighted and celebrated as it is so far in this game
Jawbreaker
Member
Weapon durability can be a fun mechanic if implemented properly — like in Let It Die where it adds tension and strategy to your runs — but it's much easier to fuck it up than to make it work, which may be part of the reason why people are generally averse to it and prefer it done away with altogether. An example of it being done a bit poorly is the Nioh alpha, which is why they just decided to scrap it entirely. How well it works in Zelda remains to be seen, but we shouldn't trash it before trying it.
As for the "Soulsborne" games, weapon durability is really a non-issue. The mechanic may as well have been scrapped. In Bloodborne, the Tonitrus actually showed a good example of durability being done right ... until it was patched and made more durable for some reason. This made it OP.
As for the "Soulsborne" games, weapon durability is really a non-issue. The mechanic may as well have been scrapped. In Bloodborne, the Tonitrus actually showed a good example of durability being done right ... until it was patched and made more durable for some reason. This made it OP.
humansarehorses
Member
Franz Brötchen;226759787 said:
Clearly:
Franz Brötchen;226759787 said:
...well, that has nothing to do with what I said.
Franz Brötchen;226759787 said:
"I can't tell you why you should play BotW under such a reasonable hypothetical so let me bitch about what you should do instead."
Franz Brötchen;226759787 said:
Yeah, I'm sure those goblins are hiding the best weapons for themselves!
Obviously there are some enemies like that. I'm also sure that they're going to be special enemies, not fodder enemies.
From what we've seen the game has plenty of weight in the attacks themselves, when you get hit or when enemies get hit. Even graphical effects showcase impact and it's great:
The TGA footage already has enemies with nice movesets not far removed at all from Souls games with leaping attacks, usual melee attacks and even better some good AI. I'm not sure what there is to compare to Souls bosses yet because one game is already out and can be judged while the other has only shown little snippets of its game and exactly zero bosses.
Zelda has never had an full open-world, like that going to change now. Also, the Zelda combat system was never bad, hell the Souls games straight-up copied the OoT combat system and ran with it (just like countless other games).
Yes, context and implementation is everything. Just because one game has a bad open-world doesn't mean being open-world is bad.
Franz Brötchen
Banned
Exactly, and I am simply very optimistic that it will be done correctly.
This very much reminds me of people hating Banjo Kazooie because 'it was just a stupid collect-a-ton', which was/is both correct and incredibly stupid, since the game designed around this premise matters, rarely the premise itself.
Chill Penguin
Member
Many of you seem to have way more faith in guerrilla than I do. It's almost certain in my mind that Zelda will be vastly superior. The track record of the two developers are a good basis for predicting this.
OrbitalBeard
Member
And that was a horrible idea on their part. The durability system in the alpha was great. It actively encouraged me to try new weapons and tactics. I loved it.
backbreaker65
Banned
Is there an explanation as to why "Aloy" Magic hacking stick disappears when she put it in the invisible quiver? She attacks the watcher and the damn thing appears out of nowhere and she puts it away and it disappears. Is this a bug or some kind of magic.
- Status