DecoReturns
Member
Have a feeling the dungeons are more story related. They seem really adamant about not spoiling the story
Comparing Horizon Zero Dawn and TLoZ: BoTW
- Thread starter Neoleo2143
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SolidSnakex
Member
But they haven't shown it and yet you're already talking about how their greatness is a foregone conclusion. You also mentioned how games like Wind Waker and or Skyward Sword would be viewed more highly if they weren't Zelda games. Are you sure about that? Would people be so willing to give a new IP a pass if it had Wind Waker's Triforce shard questing? Would they be willing to give a new IP a pass if it started as slowly as Skyward Sword?
I'm not saying that either are bad, and i'm certainly not suggesting that Breath of the Wild will be bad. It's just that you're highlighting exactly the benefits that Zelda, or any other established IP, has against a new IP. You're asking "Well, what does Horizon do that's so great". How are we supposed to know when it's not out? It's the same thing that should be applied to Zelda, but it's not because it's an established brand. In this thread and in others discussing a comparison between these two games i've seen people (not you specifically) praise Breath of the Wild and then turn around and dump on Horizon because it has "UBI towers". Yet BotW has UBI towers as well. So, are they bad or are they just bad if they're in a new IP? Again, it's a benefit of being an established IP vs. an established one.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
Having tried both the combat in Horizon is way way more interesting so Horizon for me.
nelsonroyale
Member
Franz Brötchen;226507181 said:
What? Horizon looks pretty damn far from realism. Zelda also looks pretty far from Ghibli. I thin this is one of the categories where both excel, although Zelda has a more minimalist style, while Horizon doesn't hold back, tons of detail and density.
i think okami ps2 has pretty poor pacing from both a technical and a design standpoint, and yet it was basically lauded upon release and it's considered a classic despite some glaring issues.
it's something that can definitely cut both ways.
Retromelon
Member
Well, yeah..? We know that Zelda games have cleverly designed levels. If it's been that way for 20 years it's not likely to change, which is why it's safe for me to assume that. Unfortunately, since Horizon is a new IP if I want to formulate an impression, the gameplay footage is all I have to go on. What I saw was dull, expressionless acting, competent if not reolvolutionary gameplay, and pretty graphics. Just wondering what else is going to be in this game, so far it seems to be about traversing a large, pretty, empty world killing big robots.
The shrines are like absolutely not comparable to the tombs from the Tomb Raider reboot. Not even close. The first few plateau shrines were merely tutorials for the abilities you get in them but we got a glimpse of the later ones not seen on the plateau and they were easily more complex, involved and longer.
Prithee Be Careful
Industry Professional
To be fair, this was also possible in Morrowind - 14 years ago.
Prithee Be Careful
Industry Professional
While I still had fun with it (more than most seem to have had, at any rate), Skyward Sword had some of the most blatant swallow-the-spider-to-catch-the-fly design I've ever seen. Zelda games have good pedigree, it's true, but nothing's full-proof - every creator in every medium is capable of shitting the bed occasionally.
Exactly.
But I think Zelda has a way higher chance to offer more variety. The 100 shrines alone will assure that (Think of 100 Portal 2 puzzle rooms)
Always-honest
Banned
You don't think that can get repetitive? They would need to have a LOT of variation.
No, clever puzzles are always interesting, the shrines being visually similar or not don't matter much. Like Pushmo for instance.
And the shrines are side dishes of the overall meal.
Always-honest
Banned
I agree the puzzles portal 1 and 2 didn't get repetitive.
And zelda puzzles are usually some of the best parts of the game.
Magic Mushroom
Member
Well, I did say there weren't many.
Especially nowadays. It looks like a true gameplay sandbox as much as it is an open world game.
Not to downplay Horizon, but it's coming from a studio that made, in my opinion, lesser quality shooters compared to competitors who are now developing there first game in a daunting new genre. I'm not gonna blindly be excited for that.
Zelda, on the other hand, is coming from thirty years of lore, dev experience, and genre gameplay refinement so it's much easier for me to place confidence in that game.
Zelda, on the other hand, is coming from thirty years of lore, dev experience, and genre gameplay refinement so it's much easier for me to place confidence in that game.
Neoleo2143
Member
Interesting. Do you think you can explicate as to why? Also could you touch on traversal and stealth if possible?
Neoleo2143
Member
I can't help but feel your criticisms of the gameplay are lacking in nuance, (If you would allow me to be reductive, your arguments are that these things are bad just because they're bad). I don't disagree with you on the visuals of the game (as I note in the OP) outside the fact that it's pretty safe to assume that the Switch version runs at a locked or close to locked framerate (so technically they are releasing it on more capable hardware?)
Also on Voice acting, I've been pretty disappointed with the Voice acting in Horizon so far, it feels quite wooden, really needs some rerecording if you ask me (a lot of trailer lines are pretty cringe which doesn't help), Aloy is alright in places I suppose, but it really takes me out of the experience to hear poor voice acting in general. Zelda might not have as much voice acting but what's there is good.
MiamiWesker
Member
These are two of my most anticipated games, that said Zelda is clearly going to be one of the greatest games ever made while Horizon looks amazing and original but it's made by Guerrila games which doesn't have the best track record.
horizon seems to have fantastic combat, original looking combat. I feel that will be the best part, the emergent ways to take down these awesome AI beasts. If they nail that and the quests are great it could be one of the best games of the year. But I don't think it will have half the depth of Zelda.
Zelda BOTW in a few hours of E3 demonstration showed more interesting gameplay ideas than nearly any open world game. The puzzles shown were fantastic. They showed about 5 gameplay changing items that no game even comes close to matching. They were freezing time, manipulating water and metal, using time and physics to move objects. The gameplay possibilities are endless, I can't imagine the amazing puzzles they will have with the hundred temples.
Plus it will have everything else that make Zelda games so magical like the amazing world with interesting ways to interact with. Great mini games, fun NPCs, and who knows how many secrets will have in store. The new physics based playground adds all new layers of gameplay possibilities for the combat that Zelda games never had. They were masterpieces before this level of freedom, I can't imagine what it will be like when it's sort of like MGSV gameplay mixed with all the things Zelda does well.
Zelda is a different level of game, there is no game franchise that mixes action, puzzles and exploration as well as Zelda. With BOTW it's taking a huge gameplay step forward with incredible new gameplay possibilities and hopefully an open world that will be groundbreaking.
horizon seems to have fantastic combat, original looking combat. I feel that will be the best part, the emergent ways to take down these awesome AI beasts. If they nail that and the quests are great it could be one of the best games of the year. But I don't think it will have half the depth of Zelda.
Zelda BOTW in a few hours of E3 demonstration showed more interesting gameplay ideas than nearly any open world game. The puzzles shown were fantastic. They showed about 5 gameplay changing items that no game even comes close to matching. They were freezing time, manipulating water and metal, using time and physics to move objects. The gameplay possibilities are endless, I can't imagine the amazing puzzles they will have with the hundred temples.
Plus it will have everything else that make Zelda games so magical like the amazing world with interesting ways to interact with. Great mini games, fun NPCs, and who knows how many secrets will have in store. The new physics based playground adds all new layers of gameplay possibilities for the combat that Zelda games never had. They were masterpieces before this level of freedom, I can't imagine what it will be like when it's sort of like MGSV gameplay mixed with all the things Zelda does well.
Zelda is a different level of game, there is no game franchise that mixes action, puzzles and exploration as well as Zelda. With BOTW it's taking a huge gameplay step forward with incredible new gameplay possibilities and hopefully an open world that will be groundbreaking.
Tripolygon
Banned
They are both beautiful games but of course Horizon is more technically advanced due to hardware being more powerful. Based on what i've seen, Horizon has a more varied combat.
potatohead
Member
If horizon suddenly has dungeons that compete with twilight princess in terms of fun and engaging progressive puzzle mechanics I think I'd be pretty damn happy.
In fact I'd really like to see that an adventure game from Sony take inspiration from Zelda way more than from.... Ugh skyrim dungeon mechanics... or worse..... Yuck
More Nintendo in other games is welcome
In fact I'd really like to see that an adventure game from Sony take inspiration from Zelda way more than from.... Ugh skyrim dungeon mechanics... or worse..... Yuck
More Nintendo in other games is welcome
Jim_Cacher
Member
On one hand, Zelda never shines in the combat aspect, on the other hand, Nintendo have placed great emphasis on how to approach combat situation in Botw. Let's use the TGA footage as an example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na1cIOmfBlU
When walking into the ruin area, Bill was immediately spotted by two snipers who have insane detection range.
As Bill stayed on ground level, he was quickly shot to death by those snipers. When the gamepad was handed to Nate, he decided to go a different way, which is apparently the area on the left hand side of the second image.
He climbed up the cliff so that he was able to avoid detection and to sneak up on the sniper.
He also gain an altitude advantage that the sniper far away had difficulty to snipe him.
While the combat of Botw may seem lacking variety, this short video proves that the game is in fact challenging if you are not prepared for a combat. I think this create much depth in respect of combat, which is why I am really looking forward to Botw.
When walking into the ruin area, Bill was immediately spotted by two snipers who have insane detection range.
As Bill stayed on ground level, he was quickly shot to death by those snipers. When the gamepad was handed to Nate, he decided to go a different way, which is apparently the area on the left hand side of the second image.
He climbed up the cliff so that he was able to avoid detection and to sneak up on the sniper.
He also gain an altitude advantage that the sniper far away had difficulty to snipe him.
While the combat of Botw may seem lacking variety, this short video proves that the game is in fact challenging if you are not prepared for a combat. I think this create much depth in respect of combat, which is why I am really looking forward to Botw.
How can Zelda have less combat variety when you can pick up a giant metal door with magnetism and beat enemies to death with it? Or knock on enemy off a cliff with a gust of wind from a giant leaf?
Horizon looks great but it doesn't look like it will have as much variety as Zelda given what we've seen so far.
Horizon looks great but it doesn't look like it will have as much variety as Zelda given what we've seen so far.
AquaWateria
Member
I'm curious about this too.
Jim_Cacher
Member
Sorry for not being clear in my post, I think it is easy for people to judge Botw superficially by looking at the combat system without watching the treehouse footage. It is truly remarkable for Nintendo to allow us (intentionally or not) using these interesting and creative ways to defect enemies.
I don't care about Horizon. I do care about Zelda; I'm feeling better about it lately but I'm still worried that the open world, physics puzzles, non-linear approach, heavier light RPG mechs, etc. are going to work against the Zelda I love.
I want great dungeons and puzzles and a classic adventure. I avoided watching the shrines for spoiler reasons, so perhaps I'm setting myself up, but I want more confirmation of dungeon content. I don't anticipate wanting to play this for the sandbox.
Basically, reasons I'm iffy on Zelda are reasons I'm not interested in Horizon. Beyond that, I'm not into Horizon's aesthetics, while I like BotW's. I haven't watched much Horizon, but I wouldn't be surprised if its combat looked better, but it's environment interaction worse, just going off where Zelda's sandbox looks stronger and weaker to me.
I want great dungeons and puzzles and a classic adventure. I avoided watching the shrines for spoiler reasons, so perhaps I'm setting myself up, but I want more confirmation of dungeon content. I don't anticipate wanting to play this for the sandbox.
Basically, reasons I'm iffy on Zelda are reasons I'm not interested in Horizon. Beyond that, I'm not into Horizon's aesthetics, while I like BotW's. I haven't watched much Horizon, but I wouldn't be surprised if its combat looked better, but it's environment interaction worse, just going off where Zelda's sandbox looks stronger and weaker to me.
Oh I wasn't referring to your post. The poster who put up the horseback gifs said horizon had more variety. And I think we kind of have to all agree that's false based on what we know of both games. It's possible that poster hasn't seen all the e3 footage, though.
Neoleo2143
Member
I think my only worry with Horizon's combat is the that the way they group AI will lead to predictability in the overworld (Groups of Shell walkers won't mix with some other herds which means both overworld encounters get approached the same way each time). The enemy designs on their own look really interesting and definitely worthy of praise (but I can't help but wonder if there was a way to make weakpoints not demand the scanning feature like with the first Thunderjaw fight they showed off, it feels odd that the game is basically giving you the info to their weaknesses rather than you figuring them out on your own like with the Steppe Talus fight in Zelda). But I also wonder if they're going to toss several different ones into different challenges like how Platinum designs their encounters. Like fighting a ThunderJaw and a corrupter at the same time for example (In fact it seems too obvious not to happen in a corruption zone).
The TGA footage actually gave me some relief on Zelda's combat and how they're thinking it through. Its seems to indicate that Zelda generally takes more from Dark Souls (rather than Platinum) in terms of encounter design, showcasing 4 different encounters in a row which are all capable of killing you if you make a mistake.
GravityInsanity
Member
Couldn't have said it any better.
I guess the main thing that turns me off the Zelda combat footage is the constant breaking and looting. Also don't like food healing being in a menu. I'd much rather have trusty weapons I learned to use and kept over time, and I'd like to heal up in game.
The using the environment to kill stuff footage is more appealing to me then the fights and the flow from fight to fight.
The using the environment to kill stuff footage is more appealing to me then the fights and the flow from fight to fight.
Guerilla is a mediocre studio that has a history of releasing mediocre to awful games. I don't have much faith in their ability to develop games. Especially in genres they have never developed in.
We know what we are going to get with Zelda. Not all Zelda games are amazing, but all main series Zelda games are good. Except for maybe those DS games.
I have no idea why anyone would put faith in a studio that has a history of releasing mediocre games. How it looks before launch is more often than not irrelevant to the quality of a game.
We know what we are going to get with Zelda. Not all Zelda games are amazing, but all main series Zelda games are good. Except for maybe those DS games.
I have no idea why anyone would put faith in a studio that has a history of releasing mediocre games. How it looks before launch is more often than not irrelevant to the quality of a game.
OrbitalBeard
Member
Dungeons were confirmed more than once during E3 from Treehouse staff. Also, a few days before E3, a leak was posted online, stating the game had 100 shrines and 4 major dungeons. This was before anyone had a clue about shrines, period.
Neoleo2143
Member
Well, there's a lot of on the surface similarities which I thought would lead to some interesting examination. And I genuinely feel by doing this, I learned more about both titles that I wouldn't have realized otherwise. So I don't feel that it's silly.
I agree about healing. They actually showed off how Horizon's healing worked in a Japanese gaming showcase and it's instant but it doesn't break the flow which is smart and much appreciated.
I can't help but feel that having low durability on items is the only way to make loot more consistently valuable in these sorts of games. Which encourages exploration in the game. You want to find these things because they can improve your arsenal and you're encouraged to engage with the other mechanics so as to not wear down more valuable tools. Of course this is assuming a lack of ability to repair stuff (which is why durability mechanics in most games fail to do anything).
There are only really a couple weapon types in BoTW. So in general, I don't think you'd be deprived of a weapon style that often if at all unless you choose to break your own stuff with the throw mechanic. So really rather than weapons being "trusty", it's the movesets that are constant.
DecoReturns
Member
Maybe RPGs are what Guerilla needs. I wouldn't write them off just yet, even if I found their stuff to be just okay.
I trust the Zelda team, my least favorite Zelda game is still a damn good game. So I'm hoping both are good. Everyone's happy is a win win.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
I will likely get both but I have much different expectations from a Guerilla Games joint than I do BotW
Both look like they'll be a ton of fun. I'm personally much more excited about Horizon, though, as I am turned off by the graphics of Zelda and I'm not a big puzzle fan. However, as much as I'm hopeful that Horizon will be great, Zelda has a better chance of turning out better than good (just due to developer pedigree).
Mediocre according to who? Killzone 2 and 3 reviewed at 91 and 84 respectively on MC.
Mediocre according to who? Killzone 2 and 3 reviewed at 91 and 84 respectively on MC.
I still want more about those dungeons. 4 is so few, but they could be really good. I hope they're tightly designed and use gadgets well. Nonlinear design does not lend itself to that.
100 shrines is cool and perhaps amazing (again I skipped that part for spoilers), but I really want meatier puzzle and gadget content. That's why I play Zelda. That's why I play Metroid.
V
Vader1
Unconfirmed Member
BotW's environments look much more open whereas Horizon seems very cluttered and the art style is also way less atmospheric. Plus, BotW is a Zelda game, with all the promise of mystery, pacing, and amazing dungeon/world design that entails, it gets my vote.
Jim_Cacher
Member
Horizon will not be a bad game, however, I do feel that I have "watched enough" of it when I in fact only watched about 1-hour footage. But for Botw, I have watched hours of footage and analysis and I still want more. This is probably not because I am a huge Zelda fanboy, but due to the feeling that the gameplay potential and depth of Botw is much greater than that of Horizon.
Think about it this way, they were able to keep people interested in just watching hours of gameplay from just the tutorial area and tutorial shrines. They even mentioned that the shrines will get involved and there's a rumor each one has a different designer so repetition shouldn't be a big problem besides maybe aesthetically. And ALBTW already got them feedback on how to make free roam Zelda engaging.
Wow, couldn't disagree more about the environments. I mean, I would say Horizon's are much more dense and Zelda's much more barren, but you say that like it's a bad thing. Less atmospheric? How? I don't get that.
Neoleo2143
Member
It brings back tons of memories of that time. I played the shit out of both when I was that age.
They already fixed pretty much the main issue with ALBW's open structure. The fact that they couldn't assume which items you had from the start led to a flat complexity curve in every dungeon. However, they give you most of your main puzzle items right off the bat in this game which allows them to make complex puzzles immediately when you get off the plateau and if they want to they can just put another item with the intended property as needed in the shrine(so they could just toss a Korok leaf in a shrine where you have to blow things around which they could not do in ALBW).
Frankly, I've yet to enjoy a single game from Guerrilla (played Killzone 2 and Shadowfall). I like the concept of Horizon, but I'm definitely waiting to see reviews/impressions of the full game before I commit to buying. I've watched a couple of demos, but they seemed incredibly scripted, so I can't really draw any conclusions from them.
Zelda on the other hand is one of my favorite franchises ever, and combining puzzles, open world, and particularly the freedom the physics of BotW allow, I'm super hyped.
Zelda on the other hand is one of my favorite franchises ever, and combining puzzles, open world, and particularly the freedom the physics of BotW allow, I'm super hyped.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Horizon graphics are good but it looks too similar to killzone shadowfall especially the first semi open world level. Same lighting, colors, rocks and stuff. Other than that it might ne goid but then again its GG..
You are right that writing them off would be unwise, but putting blind faith in them is even worse. Everybody should approach Horizon with caution, and avoid pre ordering it.
As you said, even the 'bad' Zelda games are still good. It is a series that has consistently released good games for the past 30 years. The series consists of games that many consider to be the best of all time. There is good reason to pre order and put faith in the team that develops main series Zelda games.
DecoReturns
Member
Oh don't worry. I'm not putting blind faith, I always read reviews and watch gameplay before buying games I'm cautious of. I'm more hopeful that it will be good.
As excited as I am for Horizon, there's very little to suggest what the larger gameplay loop or progression looks like. BOTW, you probably know how that's going to play out and all work together.
Either way, it seems silly to compare the two on anything but superficial levels.
Either way, it seems silly to compare the two on anything but superficial levels.
Joeshabadoo
Member
id contest that, and at the very least say that we've only scratched the surface. Outside of that fact that we've seen how most environmental elements can effectively be weaponized, we've seen evidence of but very few gameplay examples of various sizes and shapes of melee weapons that can be further imbued with elemental damage buffs
still, these two games are going to feel quite different in the end. They'll share certain gameplay mechanics and philosophies, but at the core they're going after different things
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