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[LucidMomentum]

I'm trying to learn ICs. This character is really fun, but the wobble timing and desyncing is a bit harder than I thought it would be. If anyone has good ICs tutorials feel free to post them.

I haven't played ICs seriously since 2006 lol.

If I run into our local IC player I'll ask him for some good guides.

We played yesterday at our first Comic-Con tourney (It was a small local Comic-Con, but still!) and I main Peach now so it's not super tough for me to handle him.

My brother though, he likes to be aggressive and he often ends up getting wobbled. He feels like ICs shouldn't win with "less tech skill" but I just tell him to get good and learn the matchup so he doesn't run into stupid setups.

I feel everyone should play ICs and / or Puff for a month or two in tournaments to see how wrong they sound when they say a character takes "no tech skill" to play optimally.

Sure there are varying tiers depending on your tech skill, but it's 2016.

People catch up in moths what used to take years.

 

[Anth0ny]

They are fun! And pretty different from other characters too.

I tried to work on mine for like a month. Gave me a newfound level of appreciation for IC's players; it's hard to keep them together while moving well and dealing with attacks from opponents.

Don't know of any good tutorials, unfortunately. SSBM Tutorials had a couple, when I checked, but not the same depth of coverage as other high tier characters.

the fact that people DARE complain about, or even BAN, wobbling, when Fox is a character in this game is hilarious.

 

[LucidMomentum]

the fact that people DARE complain about, or even BAN, wobbling, when Fox is a character in this game is hilarious.

As a Peach main, when people complain about my Downsmash I just tell them "Yo don't crouch cancel unless you're gonna die otherwise or you're willing to risk the trade. Also git gud."

But yeah, watching my brother lose to our local ICs time and again because he feels that he shouldn't have to change his playstyle for a matchup is hilarious to me.

 

[fredrancour]

so i guess "accidental full hop to get bodied" is gonna be my personal melee samus equivalent of how i inevitably do a quick attack SD in every smash 4 pikachu set i play.

They are fun! And pretty different from other characters too.

I tried to work on mine for like a month. Gave me a newfound level of appreciation for IC's players; it's hard to keep them together while moving well and dealing with attacks from opponents.

Don't know of any good tutorials, unfortunately. SSBM Tutorials had a couple, when I checked, but not the same depth of coverage as other high tier characters.

i'll see if i can find the guides i used when i goofed around with them last year. it will be 12 hours or so from this post if i do.

EDIT: I think this guy's stuff is what I drew from when I goofed around with ICs.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Can I just say consistently short hopping with Pikachu is a real pain ;~;

 

[chaosblade]

If I'm in a period of playing a lot I can do the 3+ frame jump squat short hops fine. I can never seem to get the 2 frame ones consistently though.

 

[fredrancour]

If I'm in a period of playing a lot I can do the 3+ frame jump squat short hops fine. I can never seem to get the 2 frame ones consistently though.

oh wow jump squats/ shorthopping just clicked for me.three frames of jumpsquat + checking for shorthop on last frame = only two frames to actually let go of the button. jeez no wonder i suck at it. i've been thinking of it as checking after the squat is over entirely.

 

[emb]

Hungrybox is nominated for player of the year or something at the Game Awards. Not sure how yet, but sounds like we'll be able to vote for him.

 

[emb]

If you guys get a chance, check out Super Famicon's stream later today. It's a regional right here in my town, and we got a few solid names. DruggedFox, Colbol, and n0ne are here, along with plenty of NC talent. It's gonna be on https://www.twitch.tv/recursiongg

Also, see if you can find the videos (already on Youtube) of last night's salty suite. n0ne played a sick first to five set vs NC's $Mike.

 

[LucidMomentum]

If you guys get a chance, check out Super Famicon's stream later today. It's a regional right here in my town, and we got a few solid names. DruggedFox, Colbol, and n0ne are here, along with plenty of NC talent. It's gonna be on https://www.twitch.tv/recursiongg

Also, see if you can find the videos (already on Youtube) of last night's salty suite. n0ne played a sick first to five set vs NC's $Mike.

Will do!

Also winning drunk FFAs as Pichu in Melee never gets old.

I got to show a party group what Puff's Rest does and they all went nuts.

Also happy birthday Melee. 15 years. My life changed the day you came out.

 

[emb]

Results from Famicon:

Spoiler

n0ne puts on an excellent display. He drops a set to Colbol in winner's semis, then runs through Kaeon, $mike, and Colbol to get into grands. In grands, he 6-0s Druggedfox to take the whole thing. Styling the whole time.

Will do!

Also winning drunk FFAs as Pichu in Melee never gets old.

I got to show a party group what Puff's Rest does and they all went nuts.

Also happy birthday Melee. 15 years. My life changed the day you came out.

Yesss. Some of the best times have been when I've been with other Smashers, and we break down and start doing silly things. Sometimes it's laughing about weird stage jank, other times it's giant Melee, sometimes maybe Jigglypuff 4 for all. This game is joy with the right group/mood.

 

[FZZ]

Hope Hbox finally realizes he should pick up a viable secondary for Fox (cough) Falco (cough)

seriously tho, he's taken his style of Puff the furthest it can go, he's doing Smash full time now. Keep Puff for scrubby Foxes and every non-Fox player, but start developing your Falco in Florida or something and make your sets vs. Armada a little closer.

 

[Fugu]

My friends and I have been getting into Around The World lately, although we leave the items off and don't use most of the banned stages.

Melee is really a game that can be enjoyed in a lot of ways.

 

[Takyon]

Hope Hbox finally realizes he should pick up a viable secondary for Fox (cough) Falco (cough)

seriously tho, he's taken his style of Puff the furthest it can go, he's doing Smash full time now. Keep Puff for scrubby Foxes and every non-Fox player, but start developing your Falco in Florida or something and make your sets vs. Armada a little closer.

Nah dude, his performance at Dreamhack was nowhere near the furthest puff can go. There were so many little flubs in his play, the worst of which was the missed FD rest in Grand Finals.
Despite all of his accomplishments, Hbox still hasn't quite reached the level of mastery Armada or Mew2King have with Peach and Marth respectively. Until then, the best path forward is to refine his puff play.


About secondaries though, the biggest "hole" that can be filled in Fox versus Puff is Final Destination. That stage can actually look impossible for puff when the fox keeps it's cool.
In that case, it seems to me that for Hbox, a player that isn't as technical as his peers, Marth would be a better alternative.

 

[LucidMomentum]

LEFFEN <3

 

[Daouzin]

LEFFEN <3

Awesome, hadn't seen that yet.

Man, After EVO my hype for Smash drops a little bit every month, but around December it starts to build up all over again. Can't wait for Genesis.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

https://www.twitch.tv/meleeeveryday

y'all seeing this?

BOBBY FRIZZ holding his own against Mango's Falco

PogChamp

Edit: Mango just needed to warm up, rip bobby

 

[chaosblade]

Mango lost to Mike Haze? Wow.

 

[Pappasman]

Mike Haze is on a run right now at UGC. Pretty cool to see after he almost gave up earlier this year.

 

[chaosblade]

SFAT looking slow today.

And, woke up, 3-0 comeback.


Lmao M2K, he was handwarming for like 3 minutes. N0ne was just letting him go and the TO had to go on stage and tell him to stop.

 

[FZZ]

Hbox let himself lose his set to Armada

why he insists on sticking to Dream Land when vs. Armada it has rarely worked I will never know

edit: He can hold the L to M2K too, M2K was playing amazing just outplaying Hbox at every opportunity. (Although I do think Hbox was tilted a bit)

 

[chaosblade]

M2K looking really good.

Is Armada... tilted?

 

[Codeblue]

God, I hope he can pull this off. He's looking amazing.

 

[Hazzuh]

UGC been gdlk for both games imo.

 

[chaosblade]

That reset. Niiiice. Let's go M2K.

 

[Codeblue]

It's over It's over It's over

 

[Pappasman]

As an M2K fan, that was one of the best GFs in a long time.

 

[Codeblue]

On the upside, the list of people M2K took sets off at UGC is absurd.

 

[chaosblade]

That stitch, FFS. That totally changed the flow of that last stock.

 

[Stat Flow]

That was just...amazing and inspired by M2K.

 

[emb]

Best grand finals in a long time. Maybe best since Evo?

 

[Anteo]

Armada really earned that stich, he was pulling tons of turnips.

 

[GamerJM]

I'd say that was one of the greatest Grand Finals ever, but I also said that about Genesis 3 and EVO 2016. The truth is we had a ton of amazing tournaments this year.

 

[chaosblade]

Even though he didn't win it is extremely impressive M2K was able to take sets off Mango, Leffen, Hbox, and Armada at the same tournament.

 

[Anth0ny]

M2K fucking went off. Was awesome to see.

I also just realized it was LOSERS M2K. losers M2K is usually mind crushed from the start and plays like shit. instead, he fucking turned it on and tore up everyone in his path. wow.

 

[Anth0ny]

so it seems like Melee will be on Switch via Gamecube VC close to launch.

not sure what it means for the community. I guess it helps with the CRT situation, but I was really hoping for Melee HD.

maybe this is just a test and if it sells well they'll go through with Melee HD? believe!

 

[Anteo]

so it seems like Melee will be on Switch via Gamecube VC close to launch.

not sure what it means for the community. I guess it helps with the CRT situation, but I was really hoping for Melee HD.

maybe this is just a test and if it sells well they'll go through with Melee HD? believe!

Releasing Melee VC would be one way to make help the community transition for a future Melee HD imo.

The other way would be releasing a MeleeHD that starts the same as Melee but with added non gameplay changing features (i.e. new training mode) and later add new stuff like stages. Kind of like Dota > Dota2

Of course Nintendo being Nintendo means they may just release MeleeVC and forget about it.

 

[LucidMomentum]

so it seems like Melee will be on Switch via Gamecube VC close to launch.

not sure what it means for the community. I guess it helps with the CRT situation, but I was really hoping for Melee HD.

maybe this is just a test and if it sells well they'll go through with Melee HD? believe!

Ideally, it means every player will have a setup for tournaments because it has a built in display which is neat.

But if it doesn't have GC Adapter support, I don't know man.

 

[emb]

VC Melee could present some interesting issues.

Ideally, the Switch VC version would be exactly the same and support the GCN controller adapter, and we'd see setups mixed at first, gradually tending towards Switches.

But then there is the possibility of changes. We could see PAL version, or we could even see new updates. And then the community would kinda be forced to choose one standard or the other. The natural thought is to use the new version, but it would take some time for sure. Or the possibility that the 'Cube controller isn't supported, which would pretty much make the whole thing dead on arrival as far as the competitive community is concerned.

No matter what though, I'm sure the game will do great on VC. I'll definitely buy it, even if I can't control it or bring it to tournaments.

 

[Bakkus]

Remember that if Melee is ported over through VC, then it will still feature the same type of input lag on LCD screens which makes it unviable for tournaments today. It needs a full fledged 'remaster' to remove the input lag.

 

[Pappasman]

Remember that if Melee is ported over through VC, then it will still feature the same type of input lag on LCD screens which makes it unviable for tournaments today. It needs a full fledged 'remaster' to remove the input lag.

Are you sure? I thought input lag from older consoles on new TVs came from the processing needed to convert and display the lower resolutions properly on modern screens. 480i/p and 240p don't play nice with most modern TVs for that reason and visual quality along with response time suffer because of that. If the console itself is displaying the game in at least 720p then I don't see how it would have more input lag than any other game. Low lag monitors are used in every competitive game because of the inherent lag already part of the equation. I'm not sure how a Switch game would supposedly have a faster response time unless the Virtual Console displays games at 480p, which would be really stupid in 2017.

Does Wii U VC for SNES and N64 games introduce input lag that was't there to begin with? What resolution does the Wii U spit those games out at?

 

[chaosblade]

Remember that if Melee is ported over through VC, then it will still feature the same type of input lag on LCD screens which makes it unviable for tournaments today. It needs a full fledged 'remaster' to remove the input lag.

That entirely depends on how it is handled by the console. There is no deinterlacing or analog/digital conversion so that is an improvement already. If the console also handles scaling to 720 or 1080p it would make it as lag-free as possible. At that point it comes down to the display, and there are plenty of low latency monitors. It's not impossible for it to actually have less lag than a GC + CRT due to less processing. I think the HDMI mod claims that it has slightly less lag than a stock GC due to no internal digital analog conversion.

Even if the console doesn't scale the picture it may still be fine on some displays without extra hardware.

I'd be mostly concerned about the quality of the emulation. That is the most likely place there would be trouble.

 

[emb]

Does Wii U VC for SNES and N64 games introduce input lag that was't there to begin with? What resolution does the Wii U spit those games out at?

Seems like I've heard that there is lag there? I'm not sensitive enough to the nuances of any game except Melee, so I can't always tell unless it gets really bad.

 

[Codeblue]

That entirely depends on how it is handled by the console. There is no deinterlacing or analog/digital conversion so that is an improvement already. If the console also handles scaling to 720 or 1080p it would make it as lag-free as possible. At that point it comes down to the display, and there are plenty of low latency monitors. It's not impossible for it to actually have less lag than a GC + CRT due to less processing. I think the HDMI mod claims that it has slightly less lag than a stock GC due to no internal digital analog conversion.

Even if the console doesn't scale the picture it may still be fine on some displays without extra hardware.

I'd be mostly concerned about the quality of the emulation. That is the most likely place there would be trouble.

You could even take the display out of the equation by standardizing the switch display.

 

[LucidMomentum]

Just give us Melee HD with no input or display lag, no balance changes, and online with ranked leaderboards and a non-shit "for glory" mode.

HOW HARD IS IT, NINTENDO? HOW HARD?

 

[Anteo]

Just give us Melee HD with no input or display lag, no balance changes, and online with ranked leaderboards and a non-shit "for glory" mode.

HOW HARD IS IT, NINTENDO? HOW HARD?

Harder than making a GC emulator to run the melee iso on switch it seems

 

[chaosblade]

Just give us Melee HD with no input or display lag, no balance changes, and online with ranked leaderboards and a non-shit "for glory" mode.

HOW HARD IS IT, NINTENDO? HOW HARD?

Honestly, a well emulated VC release is probably the best realistic outcome. It ensures there won't be any problematic changes, even if it doesn't add any new features. It would also probably be an easy sell to the community at large and not create any sort of divide or leave much room for debate about versions.

There is always the dream of a perfect Melee HD with all the features and additions one could desire without any detrimental changes, but outside of the community being involved, that remaster likely won't exist.

 

[LucidMomentum]

There is always the dream of a perfect Melee HD with all the features and additions one could desire without any detrimental changes, but outside of the community being involved, that remaster likely won't exist.

Get PMDT involved.

Then let them release Brawl HD with Project M as a mode in the game.

Then watch me buy 30 copies for tournaments.

I've been playing these games for a decade now. I just want to feel loved by Nintendo again.

 

[Bakkus]

Are you sure? I thought input lag from older consoles on new TVs came from the processing needed to convert and display the lower resolutions properly on modern screens. 480i/p and 240p don't play nice with most modern TVs for that reason and visual quality along with response time suffer because of that. If the console itself is displaying the game in at least 720p then I don't see how it would have more input lag than any other game. Low lag monitors are used in every competitive game because of the inherent lag already part of the equation. I'm not sure how a Switch game would supposedly have a faster response time unless the Virtual Console displays games at 480p, which would be really stupid in 2017.

Does Wii U VC for SNES and N64 games introduce input lag that was't there to begin with? What resolution does the Wii U spit those games out at?

If it is just emulated, I believe so. It might be different from the Wii due to the console now being HD, but I still think they need to re-program the game to a certain extent at least. As others have also said, even if the potential input lag won't happen, there certainly will be other porting problems which needs to be addressed.

 

[chaosblade]

If it is just emulated, I believe so. It might be different from the Wii due to the console now being HD, but I still think they need to re-program the game to a certain extent at least. As others have also said, even if the potential input lag won't happen, there certainly will be other porting problems which needs to be addressed.

This simply isn't right. The problem is not the game, there isn't anything to reprogram. Otherwise the game would have lag problems with Dolphin. The lag is caused by the necessary processing of a standard definition image on a HDTV.

- GC converts the rendered image from digital to analog, typically interlaced due to the rarity of component cables.
- TV receives the signal but has to covert the signal back to digital
- TV now has a picture, but it has to deinterlace it.
- Now the TV has a usable picture, but the resolution doesn't match the TV's display resolution, so it has to upscale.
- Finally, the TV does its image quality processing (varies depending on the TV and video settings) and displays the picture.

Switch would eliminate most of those steps, though it will vary depending on how it handles GC games. If it renders the game at 720p or 1080p, it would skip everything except step 5. If it renders at the original resolution, it would need to do step 4 either on the console on the TV. Likely the console based on Wii U (Wii games are upscaled by the console), but the console or a sufficient monitor would work.


For what it's worth, a Wii + Sewell HDMI adapter + good low latency gaming monitor has less than 1 frame of lag and is for all intents and purposes equal to a CRT. I think LucidMomentum uses setups like that at his locals, and I use that myself. A VC release would have even fewer conversions, so it would be even better.