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Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Anth0ny
- Start date
TheDanimal
Junior Member
Man I wish Ice was going to Summit ;_;
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
He could seriously use the experience from that. I think it contributed a lot to the continued success Duck and Swedish have seen.
Bakkus
Member
S2J and PPU were voted in for the 3rd time. (Or technically SFAT was voted in the first time because PPU was invited, but they basically swapped positions afterwards)
And both of them will definitely be voted in for all eternity...
Yeah, I mean, I'd rather have seen Chu, Chillin, or Wizzy in there instead, but I was just speaking to how the last round of voting wound up shaking out.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Loving team McBallz.
But I just love Summit in general.
Sick remix of Ken's Theme. I really wish they would have the artist and title listed for the music they play. "It's from OCR" doesn't help if the song has 200 different remixes or you just don't know what the song is.
Town never wins. I can't believe they didn't pick up Hbox/Leffen/Zhu. Hbox was screwing up early on and made it too obvious that he and Leffen were on the same wavelength. Nobody picked that up and Hbox eventually shut up. Since it seemed to coincide with the break I wouldn't be surprised if Leffen or another mafia tipped him off and told him to talk less. And Zhu was the only person that Leffen blatantly defended and deflected for. On everyone else he was way more wishy-washy or aggressive.
That was really bad though, they didn't manage to get a single mafia.
Probably going to watch mafia blind tomorrow night (assuming they play) and see if I come away any better than they do.
But I just love Summit in general.
Sick remix of Ken's Theme. I really wish they would have the artist and title listed for the music they play. "It's from OCR" doesn't help if the song has 200 different remixes or you just don't know what the song is.
Town never wins. I can't believe they didn't pick up Hbox/Leffen/Zhu. Hbox was screwing up early on and made it too obvious that he and Leffen were on the same wavelength. Nobody picked that up and Hbox eventually shut up. Since it seemed to coincide with the break I wouldn't be surprised if Leffen or another mafia tipped him off and told him to talk less. And Zhu was the only person that Leffen blatantly defended and deflected for. On everyone else he was way more wishy-washy or aggressive.
That was really bad though, they didn't manage to get a single mafia.
Probably going to watch mafia blind tomorrow night (assuming they play) and see if I come away any better than they do.
I watched Mafia blind during Summit 1 and it just led to me being confused a lot of the time since I've never played the game and I couldn't remember the roles/how many there were supposed to be. It was really fun trying to guess who was who, I remember thinking that a lot of their accusations lacked basis but at the same time no one really seemed like mafia to me, and I don't think I "got," that you had to throw out accusations even if they weren't super well-justified. But at the same time I think it's probably a little more fun seeing how on-track or off-track the players are.
Rivals is the one event I deliberately skip watching. I would legitimately rather watch Smash 4 with boring matchups. Something about Rivals is just...off to me.
Rivals is the one event I deliberately skip watching. I would legitimately rather watch Smash 4 with boring matchups. Something about Rivals is just...off to me.
I think there are a lot of cool designs but in my opinion there's such a thing as a game being too offensive, and that's coming from someone who'd rather 99% fighting games were fast paced offensive monsters. The thing is, just like any show or story, you need moments where tension is allowed to set in and that builds up the hype. Even a game as fast as melee has those moments due to high-percentage and reliance on recovery being "a do or die scenario" each time and because of melee's neutral tools, where perfect neutral spacing and dash dancing drives people insane. Rivals on the other hand has the PM problem where everyone seems to have super low impact/lag recovery options and on top of that the outer boxes of the stage are very very small. There's very very little downtime for tension to build because of every stage feeling like Yoshis and as well as the fact that characters basically seem like they have never ending attack swatting instead of any sort of neutral and to me neutral is what makes or breaks it. I like their ideals in character design directions, but this is a pretty big hill to climb for me.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Some of the smashers have gotten better at the game. They were all completely awful early on. Still kind of are for the most part, there is still a lot of baseless bandwagoning but not as much as their used to be. Tonight's game was particularly bad because mafia was pretty decent and town was absolutely awful. It probably wouldn't have been much better blind, but I am still pretty sure I'd have picked up on Leffen/Hbox/Zhu even if I didn't get N0ne and Alex.
Kind of a shame Caitlin is getting a lot of hate over the town's poor performance. She had a lot of poor reads, but a big part of that falls on the atrocious play of the rest of the town. The mafia got rid of the better players on the first two nights. Like half the town left at that point was randos that paid their way in and had no idea what they were doing. When accused their defense was basically "I don't really know how to play but I'm not mafia so don't kill me." The only town people aside from her that did very much at all were Wes and HMW but that wasn't until near the end of the game when it was a lost cause anyway. There was very little from the rest of the town for most of the game unless they were defending themselves.
I'd say the only two big mistakes she made were
1) not realizing that killing useless town people is a poor option late in the game when mafia still had 2 kill power. At that point going after the more suspicious person would have been better even if it was a shot in the dark. They needed numbers more than anything at that point. Not that it mattered, town was terrible and didn't get the numbers when they finally did accuse Zhu.
2) not realizing that mafia was letting her live despite being so vocal. She was almost single-handedly trying to carry town and stir up discussion for a good part of the game, and getting rid of her would have put the town in even more disarray since they wouldn't have any vocal, active players trying to get things figured out. Her continued survival should have been an indication she wasn't on the right track.
Of the random people/buy ins that played, she's probably the only one I'd care to see play again. She would probably play a lot better if the rest of the town wasn't so bad.
It's really a shame that we're growing to have one of the longest lasting competitive lifespan but because the community has had so much intense ups downs and poverty, we weren't able to cultivate a lot of our old veterans like other esports. Where veterans in other fields have become rampant as new coaches, commentators, managers, Smash hasn't really been able to build a foundation for retired players yet, and along with that commentary is very heavily built toward color commentary rather than analysis.
PPMD pls.
Sfat?
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Watching Mafia blind.
I think Vish's defense has been really poor so far. But it's also pretty fishy that Mango lived despite claiming cop AND he supposedly caught two mafia in a row?
Do think there is a decent shot at both Hbox and Vish were mafia. If so town is in a good place.
LOL Wow, town destroyed mafia. Mango is ridiculously lucky lmao, picking Lovage to check. Only town that died was Blur since medic couldn't save him twice. D1 called them out so hard, knowing mafia would assume Mango was saved night 2, so he wasted the save elsewhere on night 2 and then saved Mango on night 3 when the mafia (just Lovage at that point) assumed he would be vulnerable.
I think Vish's defense has been really poor so far. But it's also pretty fishy that Mango lived despite claiming cop AND he supposedly caught two mafia in a row?
Do think there is a decent shot at both Hbox and Vish were mafia. If so town is in a good place.
LOL Wow, town destroyed mafia. Mango is ridiculously lucky lmao, picking Lovage to check. Only town that died was Blur since medic couldn't save him twice. D1 called them out so hard, knowing mafia would assume Mango was saved night 2, so he wasted the save elsewhere on night 2 and then saved Mango on night 3 when the mafia (just Lovage at that point) assumed he would be vulnerable.
I felt like Caitlin's poor reads were mostly just a product of the mafia playing relatively well and a handful of town members acting off/awkward. They mostly seemed grounded in logic. Day 2's rules felt too skewed against town because they got two kills and a lot of the town was new (though today's felt skewed against mafia just from a mathematical perspective, as Blur outlined). I've seen people compare Caitlin to ESAM at Summit 2, which is a really unfair comparison because I think he legitimately had a bunch of bad reads while leading the town (the Kragg thing was so fucking stupid, but he still managed to convince a significant enough amount of people for it to matter). I will say that it's really dumb that people dislike her for leading discussion even though Mango/Moon did the same thing day 1.
In general Mafia seems like it's a hard game to devise rulesets for. I feel like even in "balanced," mafia, the mafia has an advantage because it's significantly easier to pretend to just be a random town member than it is to try and pick out who is/isn't mafia. That's part of why I feel like they lost day 2 and why town always lost at every prior Summit, day 1 had a lot of great plays (and poor plays on the part of the Mafia) and day 3 just felt like luck.
Also, on the subject of Melee, I love Summit commentary so much. No other event's commentary comes even close. It's so good coming off of lukewarm (IMO) commentary at events like TBH6 and Canada Cup.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I think it would about half luck and half good reads on Mango's part.
Hbox being mafia was luck. Of course Mango picks Hbox to read first.
Mango picking Vish was the probably the least lucky. Vish was suspicious and a sensible pick.
Lovage may have been lucky or a good read. Reddit says he was really fidgety when cop was picking, plus Mango may have picked up that he had acted a little differently than usual at the start of the game plus he was one of the first people to (attempt to) defend Vish. So if Mango caught that it came together pretty well.
In terms of balance, I think it's difficult because a lot of these guys are not very good at it. So you balance it in favor of one side or the other and you have a decent player or two able to take advantage, and it gets blown open. Kind of happened both last night in favor of mafia, and tonight in favor of town.
Edit: Apparently Lovage tried to kill himself on the last night when he was the only mafia? Lmao. So that's why the people who weren't playing laughed.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Leffen choked super hard, Axe kept messing up but Leffen's spaghetti kept it going.
"Can't complain when you live to 180. On Yoshi's. With Falco..."
God damn, is there a Falcon with better movement than Westballz?
"Can't complain when you live to 180. On Yoshi's. With Falco..."
God damn, is there a Falcon with better movement than Westballz?
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Gotta get that Leffen strategy guide. Leffen is a really fun commentator.
Lol at Hbox trying to camp M2k, especially while he was down. M2K was content to just sit there and wait.
Lol at Hbox trying to camp M2k, especially while he was down. M2K was content to just sit there and wait.
Not really idk about y'all but everyone except Armada was playing kinda off today
Axe did well tho too
This summit was just bad because everything felt off, maybe there really does need to be a Smash 4 summit as a break in between the Melee ones.
LucidMomentum
Member
It was the weed, y'all. WeedMaps sponsorship was a bad idea fam.
weedmaps sponsorship comes off as totally scummy, no matter how legitimate it is. similar to porn companies sponsoring players.
we should get an alcohol sponsorship. beer or liquor or whatever. alcohol companies have managed to create an image of class when marketing their products. so clearly the next step is to sponsor a video game tournament for college kids.
we should get an alcohol sponsorship. beer or liquor or whatever. alcohol companies have managed to create an image of class when marketing their products. so clearly the next step is to sponsor a video game tournament for college kids.
I mean alcohol is plastered all over the ads and sponsor sections of regular physical sports, but to me that's all because football and basketball are full on arena spectator sports, so half the fun is getting drunk and yelling at the game. That said, really in the longest case, Smash is no different unless you keep it's current social notion.
SMASH IS FOR CHILDREN
Agreed. I actually held off of watching a lot of Summit, because that whole thing kinda feels not ok to me. Even if the majority of your audience is gonna be college students, you're still streaming a kid's game.
that's what I'm thinking. if it's okay for sports, why not esports? at the top level, it's not so different. difference is, video games and alcohol go hand in hand in a way sports don't. you can't play sports drunk (well, I guess you can, but that sounds terrible).
super smashed bros is basically an american pastime!
Top 8 was good, but kind of predictable. I really want to see Axe keep improving but I feel like he's never gonna beat Armada or HBox honestly. The commentary was godlike though, Moon and Leffen were so good.
The Weedmaps sponsor was....eh Idk how I feel about it. I never really thought about it before but yeah there is something kinda gross about a weed company sponsoring something that I'm sure kids are watching. Then again the scene honestly doesn't do a whole lot to make itself kid-friendly even in the post-eSports world, lots of F-bombs still get dropped.
The Weedmaps sponsor was....eh Idk how I feel about it. I never really thought about it before but yeah there is something kinda gross about a weed company sponsoring something that I'm sure kids are watching. Then again the scene honestly doesn't do a whole lot to make itself kid-friendly even in the post-eSports world, lots of F-bombs still get dropped.
LucidMomentum
Member
Y'all don't remember the years where the term rape was thrown around casually in commentary and friendlies...
oh believe me I remember
"I got raped by his puff. he just played gay the whole time."
"gay" has been replaced by "lame" over time, and raped has been replaced by a number of other words, thankfully.
I totally do. I'm a goody-goody who has never said a swear word in my life, but it was so common in the Smash vernacular back then that I got into a habit of saying rape. I distinctly remember popping off after winning some game in a tournament and saying 'Get raped!'.
Awful stuff. Great times, but I don't miss that kind of garbage.
What this event highlighted for me was how crushing Leffen's Visa issues really were.
He had flashes of absolute brilliance that were immediately buried by rust. His doubles performance was on another level and his commentary was great. It sort of puts me at odds with my predisposition to think Leffen is a punk. Dude was genuinely endearing this weekend.
On the polar opposite spectrum of that, I feel like Hungrybox is at his most likable when he isn't talking. I've been a huge fan of his since forever, and I really admire the dude, but I felt like he just wasn't a great commentator at an event where I feel like commentary is the real star of the show.
He had flashes of absolute brilliance that were immediately buried by rust. His doubles performance was on another level and his commentary was great. It sort of puts me at odds with my predisposition to think Leffen is a punk. Dude was genuinely endearing this weekend.
On the polar opposite spectrum of that, I feel like Hungrybox is at his most likable when he isn't talking. I've been a huge fan of his since forever, and I really admire the dude, but I felt like he just wasn't a great commentator at an event where I feel like commentary is the real star of the show.
Lol, that's pretty good.
I don't remember any great lines, but I think one of my favorite things I heard in commentary highlights this week was Mango and Armada arguing over who's the best at Booksquirm (Mario Party 4 minigame). I really wanna see it go down.
Ever since that 'press 1 if you feel bad for Hbox' money match, I've kinda had the impression that he isn't the most comfortable speaking. Sounds like he has the voice of someone that would be comfortable commentating, though.
Wasn't able to watch live this year. The impressions in this thread had me a little scared, but I've been watching the vods and the matches themselves seem pretty decent. The Moon-Shroomed set was excellent and Leffen's commentary is on point. As someone else suggested in the thread, I'm generally inclined to think of Leffen negatively but he seemed a lot funnier and... I don't know, less Bieber-esque.
It definitely wasn't as good as Summit 2 and it's disappointing that Hbox didn't play too great in the grand finals and that Mango was just generally not present. But I enjoyed it all the same.
It definitely wasn't as good as Summit 2 and it's disappointing that Hbox didn't play too great in the grand finals and that Mango was just generally not present. But I enjoyed it all the same.
It was actually probably my favorite Summit event thus far, mostly for how good player commentary was. Probably my second favorite event of the year behind Genesis (and I went to Genesis and EVO....EVO was probably a more fun experience than sitting at home watching Summit though).
I'll admit that I don't remember much of EVO this year (got timezone'd pretty hard as I was in Japan) but that grand finals is one my favorite matches ever.
This has been a decent year for tournaments in general, though. Things seem more contentious although there have been a fair amount of total blowouts.
They are fun! And pretty different from other characters too.
I tried to work on mine for like a month. Gave me a newfound level of appreciation for IC's players; it's hard to keep them together while moving well and dealing with attacks from opponents.
Don't know of any good tutorials, unfortunately. SSBM Tutorials had a couple, when I checked, but not the same depth of coverage as other high tier characters.