Thesuffering79
Banned
What? Oppressing one group of people not like the other is "not exactly the same"? Deliberately causing a divide among people?
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What? Oppressing one group of people not like the other is "not exactly the same"? Deliberately causing a divide among people?
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Please stop. Just. Please.
funkygunther
Banned
I asked for example of your parallels to prove
what you copy pasted is not exactly the same as how we treat unvaccinated people, so let’s try again
Thesuffering79
Banned
What? You cant see the divide and conquer tactics? How it creates hate? You guys have expressed a lot of it to "anti-vaxxers"(you mean all who refuse to take the shot, not just anti vaxxers).
funkygunther
Banned
I am still waiting for your proof that it’s exactly the same and you have failed to provide it, you can provide the examples and we can discuss them or you can continue down your very own “you guys” divide and conquer route
now do you want to provide some proof for your claim that Nazi tactics are exactly the same, paying very clear attention to the definitions of the words you use
Thesuffering79
Banned
You know you are arguing semantics right? Essentially you are arguing that someone dying from a knife would is different that someone dying from a gun wound and then going "aha you are wrong".
funkygunther
Banned
it is not semantics (I did ask you to be very clear on the definitions of words you use) it is specifics, which is important when you make such controversial and brave statements as you did
I am not arguing anything about gun wounds or knife wounds, I am arguing about Nazi tactics deployed by whoever “we” is that you are talking about…I have not asked for your definition of “we“ yet because I cannot even get a example of Nazi tactics being ”exactly the same” as anything being deployed by anyone now
So am I to assume and conclude you cannot provide any proof to back up your initial claim?
RAÏSanÏa
Member
Mystique?
RAÏSanÏa
Member
That's good news.
The old Israel study was in the news recently as evidence started to show here that the longer interval due to our supply and rollout turned out to be better than the indication of that old study.
I wanted to wait for a completely updated mRNA for new variants rather than an adjusted one.
Thesuffering79
Banned
Way to miss my point. I am claiming your argument that it isn't Nazi tactics is the same as arguing that a death by knife wound is not the same as a death from a gun wound.
And "we" is the government. That should have been obvious.
You are arguing semantics.
funkygunther
Banned
To use your analogy I would be asking for proof that it was a knife wound and you would be doing everything except trying to prove that yes, it is indeed a knife wound. So with that in mind I am still waiting for you to back up your “exactly the same” claim. Which you still haven’t done.
If you concede that you can’t evident “exactly the same” then we can move on, in which case I will ask you if they are not exactly the same and you were just using a generalised approach to oppression why did you specifically invoke the Nazis, was it just attention? Or did you genuinely believe they were “exactly the same” without having really thought about it?
Thesuffering79
Banned
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Your post was about fear. You made it. I know that. I got that straight. It's also within the conversational context of mitigation strategies and the reasoning behind them, and what is and isn't reasonable. Ignoring my entire post by being pedantic about vocabulary is a convenient way to avoid the question.
I responded to your post about fear and reframed it to remove the sensationalism since the way you are using emotional buzzwords like "fear", "afraid", and "terrifying" serves to paint certain mitigation strategies as being unreasonable. I keep emphasizing facts over feelings, and fear is a feeling that should be tempered. Indeed, we're both broadly saying that we should make our decisions without fear, but that is where the similarities to our approaches ends.
Your advice to do or not to do things is often predicated on feelings or emotions e.g. "don't do X out of fear" or "do what you feel is right". Call it what you want, but painting this entire complicated situation with the broad brush strokes of "fear" as if that's the only factor at work poisons the well and removes nuance. Handwaving this all away in a "just don't be afraid" message trivializes the actual danger and hardships that people have had to face during the pandemic.
Do other people's pursuit of happiness mean that they get to put the community in danger which then results in even more draconian emergency responses? Do other people's right to express their freedom mean that it's okay when it infringes on my own liberty as well? Their liberty should not come at the expense of mine.
If I want to live life normally, I can't because the government has imposed social distancing and attendance limits (depending on what state I'm in) due to so many people being unvaccinated and causing a strain on the health care system. Compare that with the UK, which has a higher vaccination rate, which does not have a hospital crisis, and whose citizens are currently more free than many Americans.
Blaming other people is not nonsense when there is a direct cause and effect relationship between their poor choices and the hardships we all have to face now because of it. Personal responsibility is an important pillar of a functional society that holds people accountable for their actions.
Does the ICU being full of COVID patients reduce the quality of care for everyone else? Elective surgeries being cancelled is a thing. Increased health care worker burnout is a thing. Delayed response to otherwise everyday emergencies are a thing.
Thesuffering79
Banned
Dividing people up into us and them and creating hate for the them group is exactly what the Nazis did.
funkygunther
Banned
it’s the same as media does, it’s the same that school gangs do, it’s the same as sports teams do and it’s the same as governments already do…there are countless examples
so if your point is a general us vs them narrative by the government and not a direct comparison to the Nazis I want to know why you invoked them if there was nothing specific they did that countless other groups aren’t doing already, because the Nazis also wore boots and shirts
but it is not “exactly” what the Nazis did because that was my initial point, I thought you had more to go on in terms of methods deployed by either Nazis or your government to make such a claim but really, you have nothing
Thesuffering79
Banned
synchronicity
Member
The thing a lot of people don't realize is just how insidious authoritarian creep can be. Many who are against mandatory society-wide vaccines are aware of the slippery slope. It's not necessarily the idea of everyone getting a vaccine that is the problem. It's the idea that if you don't get it, you are marginalized.
Thesuffering79
Banned
And those are nazi tactics, but this one is enforced by the government and one a much larger scale. Do you think that school gang tactics by the government is different to what the Nazis did initially?
funkygunther
Banned
do you think the Nazis invented us vs them?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Here's more information for people who think that somehow getting COVID is less risky than getting a vaccine, especially in regards to cardiovascular issues.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Thesuffering79
Banned
No, but they did make the severest and largest scale of it.
DeepBreath87
Banned
Sorry, but I reject your framing entirely. It’s really that simple. You don’t get to frame my argument into something I did not say. I said vaccinated people can decide to go through their lives without fear. That is a completely reasonable position.
I think it’s hilariously ironic that you would have the gall to call anyone else pedantic, btw. Particularly in the context of writing this essay you just posted.
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funkygunther
Banned
And you still cannot draw any line between us (your government) and them (the Nazis) to evidence your point
Thesuffering79
Banned
What marginalizing a group and penalizing them isn't enough?
funkygunther
Banned
It would be a different conversation if you hadn't invoked specifically Nazi tactics and just said you think people that aren't taking the vaccine are being marginalised and penalised
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Oh? If I do recall, you were just recently belittling
Nobody_Important
for his personal decision to limit his outside contact by mockingly framing his position as being afraid to go to the pool, and overstating a cautionary approach with the overgeneralized label of "fear".Do other people's pursuit of happiness mean that they get to put the community in danger which then results in even more draconian emergency responses? Do other people's right to express their freedom mean that it's okay when it infringes on my own liberty as well? Their liberty should not come at the expense of mine.
If I want to live life normally, I can't because the government has imposed social distancing and attendance limits (depending on what state I'm in) due to so many people being unvaccinated and causing a strain on the health care system. Compare that with the UK, which has a higher vaccination rate, which does not have a hospital crisis, and whose citizens are currently more free than many Americans.
Blaming other people is not nonsense when there is a direct cause and effect relationship between their poor choices and the hardships we all have to face now because of it. Personal responsibility is an important pillar of a functional society that holds people accountable for their actions.
Does the ICU being full of COVID patients reduce the quality of care for everyone else? Elective surgeries being cancelled is a thing. Increased health care worker burnout is a thing. Delayed response to otherwise everyday emergencies are a thing.
Thesuffering79
Banned
That is what Nazi tactics are from the very beginning to the end where it was the most severe. I don't understand your argument?
funkygunther
Banned
OK, let's try the other way around then. Show me where your government has been using Nazi tactics. That should be easier for you to prove than the other way around.
Thesuffering79
Banned
Oh? If I do recall, you were just recently belittling
Do other people's pursuit of happiness mean that they get to put the community in danger which then results in even more draconian emergency responses? Do other people's right to express their freedom mean that it's okay when it infringes on my own liberty as well? Their liberty should not come at the expense of mine.
If I want to live life normally, I can't because the government has imposed social distancing and attendance limits (depending on what state I'm in) due to so many people being unvaccinated and causing a strain on the health care system. Compare that with the UK, which has a higher vaccination rate, which does not have a hospital crisis, and whose citizens are currently more free than many Americans.
Blaming other people is not nonsense when there is a direct cause and effect relationship between their poor choices and the hardships we all have to face now because of it. Personal responsibility is an important pillar of a functional society that holds people accountable for their actions.
Does the ICU being full of COVID patients reduce the quality of care for everyone else? Elective surgeries being cancelled is a thing. Increased health care worker burnout is a thing. Delayed response to otherwise everyday emergencies are a thing.
There should be other options. The government is basically saying take the vaccine or the highway. Why not let the people who dont believe in the deadliness of Covid just be exposed to it in a safe environment? Or offer something other than vaccines like Ivermectin? Why are these vaccines forced onto people?
Thesuffering79
Banned
Unvaccinated cant leave their state.
DeepBreath87
Banned
Yes. Anyone who is fully vaccinated who is afraid to go to a swimming pool or a beach, outside, is operating out of an unreasonable amount of fear. If you do not acknowledge that, you have left the realm of science and are no longer in the rational world.Oh? If I do recall, you were just recently belittling
Do other people's pursuit of happiness mean that they get to put the community in danger which then results in even more draconian emergency responses? Do other people's right to express their freedom mean that it's okay when it infringes on my own liberty as well? Their liberty should not come at the expense of mine.
If I want to live life normally, I can't because the government has imposed social distancing and attendance limits (depending on what state I'm in) due to so many people being unvaccinated and causing a strain on the health care system. Compare that with the UK, which has a higher vaccination rate, which does not have a hospital crisis, and whose citizens are currently more free than many Americans.
Blaming other people is not nonsense when there is a direct cause and effect relationship between their poor choices and the hardships we all have to face now because of it. Personal responsibility is an important pillar of a functional society that holds people accountable for their actions.
Does the ICU being full of COVID patients reduce the quality of care for everyone else? Elective surgeries being cancelled is a thing. Increased health care worker burnout is a thing. Delayed response to otherwise everyday emergencies are a thing.
If your not right next to me telling him that such a level of fear is not necessary and is actually detrimental to his overall well being, you are doing him a disservice.
Also, let’s try to keep it brief. Like I mentioned, someone who throws around the word pedantic should know better. This isn’t your dissertation. If you’re going to use that word, let’s try some self awareness on your part.
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RAÏSanÏa
Member
Judicial theory would include an accounting of harms balanced with freedoms. What activities not groups are being marginalized?
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funkygunther
Banned
Sorry I can only find that Hawaii has specific restrictions for people entering, which state has people who are not vaccinated quarantined then?
Thesuffering79
Banned
Its Australia(I live in NSW) wide AFAIK.
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
I remember when people thought this was a good idea, and then a 30 year old died after attending a covid party. "I think I made a mistake" he told hospital staff before he died.
maybe getting vaccinated and attending a covid party might be super beneficial for your immune system though, dunno
I won't entertain your "they are trying to tell me what to do for my own good just like the Nazis" analogy though
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poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
It's also what Lincoln did during the civil war. Them and us. Also what the allies did to the axis forces during WW2, them and us.
funkygunther
Banned
Oh you're in Australia, well its basically another lockdown there for you because there is no confidence that the virus is manageable yet. You should wait until after your winter and if vaccine rates go up before declaring persecution that you're still in COVID lockdown.
Dr_Salt
Banned
Isn't that community supposedly already been vaccinated? I though people should stop fearing death once they got the vaccine. This thread has taught me that you shouldn't feel remorse if an antivaxxer dies. Or do you not trust the efficacy of the vaccine?
I think the issue is that we are comparing our experiencies from different points of view since we live in different countries. I live in a place that had one of the worst quarantine measurements in the whole planet. We have had a mask mandate since day 1 so we never really lived this hospital total collapse you talk about. Until this day we still have a curfew. No one ever refused the mask mandate here but there are people who refuse the vaccine. I can perfectly relate to them tbh.
RAÏSanÏa
Member
Last year when there was no vaccine the Atlantic provinces set up a bubble with quarantine restrictions.
Atlantic Bubble - Wikipedia
Unsure exactly where they're at now. this was of the top returns after wikipedia
What you need to know as a modified Atlantic Bubble opens | Globalnews.ca
Unlike the Atlantic Bubble of 2020, COVID-19 vaccination status will be playing a role this time around.
globalnews.ca
Not worried about them. They run a tight ship.
Thesuffering79
Banned
That is the odds right. I won't complain if i die.
Thesuffering79
Banned
I dont want to talk about the Civil war. It wasnt really about the slaves FYI it was the narrative but it wasnt the real reason. As for the allies vs axis, that is different countries used to inspire hatred to get more troops. A but different to what the Nazis did because they did it against their own people.
They did it to Russia and vice versa.
RAÏSanÏa
Member
The underlying "folk medicine" behind that treatment is "traditional" thinking.
People do that with their children too. Like some chicken pox party cure pulled from an uncontextualized frantic Alzheimer's memory will work for coronavirus.
thefool
Member
Sketchy study design aside (namely trying to match observational data), the cardiovascular issues you mentioned are a severe limitation of this manuscript (as it is recognized by the authors) namely for two reasons:
a) non-discretionary age in the group where the issue is more prevalent (16-39).
b) this group is under-sampled in the vaccination group, only 53% vs 62% of the other side.
It's particularly misleading they didn't do the risk analysis adjusted for the population sizes of each age-group. The conclusion that the group that has more young people has, in general, much more adverse cardiovascular events is naturally skewed knowing this group has been more affected by such issues.
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Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
I still think it's insane that this thing has killed 600k people in america and some people are like ah, who cares, business as usual.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
So for those who may not be keeping track of all the insane nonsense that has gone on in this thread in the past 2 weeks or so.
*ahem*
- The FDA is a corrupt political organization (No they aren't)
- The CDC is a corrupt political organization (No they aren't)
- The Pfizer vaccine is dangerous despite being approved by the FDA (No it isn't)
- Having the federally approved vaccine required by certain employers and public businesses for their customers/employers in order to keep them safe is LITERALLY the same as what happened in Nazi Germany (No it isn't)
- There are actual real adult human beings who would rather take horse medication than get a vaccination at their local CVS or Walgreens (This is sadly true & it pains me to admit that)
I feel like we are just batting a thousand at this point.
*ahem*
- The FDA is a corrupt political organization (No they aren't)
- The CDC is a corrupt political organization (No they aren't)
- The Pfizer vaccine is dangerous despite being approved by the FDA (No it isn't)
- Having the federally approved vaccine required by certain employers and public businesses for their customers/employers in order to keep them safe is LITERALLY the same as what happened in Nazi Germany (No it isn't
)- There are actual real adult human beings who would rather take horse medication than get a vaccination at their local CVS or Walgreens (This is sadly true & it pains me to admit that)
I feel like we are just batting a thousand at this point.