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[Thesuffering79]

Bad analysis.

Getting COVID and surviving will impart immunity, but millions will suffer and die in the process.

Getting the vaccine will also impart immunity, with hardly anyone suffering or dying.

Okay here is what i believe. Currently, the delta variant of the virus kills 0.1% of the people under 50 and 2-5% of the people over 50.

I believe the likely scenario is that in the next 5-10 years, the virus will evolve and kill 1% of the people under 50 and 10-20% of the people over 50 and in a more painful way and break through most vaccines. The next 10 years after that it will reach 5% for under 50s and 20-40% of the people over 50.

This is because in 2 years we already have the virus breaking through immunization causing the need for a booster shot. What is to say booster shots wont work in the future?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

America:

I forget, but I remember people stating why. But why are Asian countries so low in vaccination rates?

Location? Like drug companies rather ship to other countries closer to factories
Culture? Like people don't want it
Corruption and incompetence (as stated in the tweet)? How do these govs fuck up over there? Bad logitiscs? Cheap fucks who didn't buy enough?

 

[Rentahamster]

I forget, but I remember people stating why. But why are Asian countries so low in vaccination rates?

Location? Like drug companies rather ship to other countries closer to factories
Culture? Like people don't want it
Corruption and incompetence (as stated in the tweet)? How do these govs fuck up over there? Bad logitiscs? Cheap fucks who didn't buy enough?

Depends on the country. Singapore is up to 80% of their total population now.

Japan has an issue with vaccine hesitancy. They had a bogus overhyped scare about the HPV vaccine not that long ago.

 

[poppabk]

Okay here is what i believe. Currently, the delta variant of the virus kills 0.1% of the people under 50 and 2-5% of the people over 50.

I believe the likely scenario is that in the next 5-10 years, the virus will evolve and kill 1% of the people under 50 and 10-20% of the people over 50 and in a more painful way and break through most vaccines. The next 10 years after that it will reach 5% for under 50s and 20-40% of the people over 50.

This is because in 2 years we already have the virus breaking through immunization causing the need for a booster shot. What is to say booster shots wont work in the future?

So you are advocating for massive unprecedented lockdowns and social segregation? No thanks.
Glad we are not relying on your predictions and policy decisions.

 

[Rentahamster]

Okay here is what i believe. Currently, the delta variant of the virus kills 0.1% of the people under 50 and 2-5% of the people over 50.

I believe the likely scenario is that in the next 5-10 years, the virus will evolve and kill 1% of the people under 50 and 10-20% of the people over 50 and in a more painful way and break through most vaccines. The next 10 years after that it will reach 5% for under 50s and 20-40% of the people over 50.

This is because in 2 years we already have the virus breaking through immunization causing the need for a booster shot. What is to say booster shots wont work in the future?

Your beliefs are based on zero facts and only your imagination.

Vaccines prevent more cases, they prevent more hospitalizations, and they prevent more deaths while still conferring immunity. All the data shows this.

Yes, we will need booster shots. So what? Data from Israel suggests the booster shots are working. What is to say booster shots won't work in the future? What kind of speculative argument is that?

The fact that we created a vaccine that targets COVID19 in record time says that we can also develop one that targets the delta variant in record time too.

 

[Thesuffering79]

Your beliefs are based on zero facts and only your imagination.

Vaccines prevent more cases, they prevent more hospitalizations, and they prevent more deaths while still conferring immunity. All the data shows this.

Yes, we will need booster shots. So what? Data from Israel suggests the booster shots are working. What is to say booster shots won't work in the future? What kind of speculative argument is that?

The fact that we created a vaccine that targets COVID19 in record time says that we can also develop one that targets the delta variant in record time too.

The best scientists also thought we didnt need the booster shots. Everything I know know about evolution says eventually there will be a mutation that penetrate the booster shot. Its not a matter of if, rather when. Same goes for our natural immune system, but our immune system is more adaptive and lasts upto 1 year. Current data shows once you have the virus and survive you are 6x less likely to die from it than the vaccine. In fact the only case i know of where the person died after surviving covid is where the persons got the vaccine after surviving.

The virus will undergo mutations no matter what vaccine is created that is the nature of life. Eventually it ill hit on a mutation that will penetrate our current vaccines and another one, our immune system.

I think overall its best not to hedge bets on something like this. It is better to have 2 groups. One that has the vaccines and another that survived the vaccines. A corona virus is not going to die out if the whole human population is vaccinated because it will just pass onto an animal or (bird) or whatever that is why it is dangerous. And Covid 19 is the most unpredictable of the coronaviruses because someone inserted hiv strains into it.

EDIT: Birds cant get covid 19 apparently.

So you are advocating for massive unprecedented lockdowns and social segregation? No thanks.
Glad we are not relying on your predictions and policy decisions.

No I am advocating for a small amount of time social segregation for a small amount of time where the group that wants to be infected, get infected(some will die of course) and once the whole group no longer has the virus, desegregate.

Currently the lockdowns etc are not going to work effectively. In the short term the virus is not going to kill many people assuming 100% vaccinations. But long term the virus is going to mutate and mutate into another major pandemic where vaccines wont work. In that scenario having two types of immunities is better than having just one.

 

[poppabk]

Why would they anger the companies that give them billions of dollars in tax revenue?

In a capitalist country the businesses have the most power which is what most of the countries around the world are.

I could see maybe China possibly doing it but they are making their own vaccine to sell.

Most capitalist countries bend over backwards for pharmaceutical companies.

Pharmaceutical Giants Have Avoided Paying About $2.3 Billion in Taxes in the US Alone

Could that money be used to fund a more humane health-care system?

www.thenation.com

This makes no sense and I am pretty sure you know it. For one you said they have so much power because they pay billions in taxes and then posted an article about how they dodge billions in taxes as proof of how much power they have!
But more importantly - there are more big pharma companies that don't have vaccines on the market, nations are losing trillions in business (and taxes) due to COVID, and there are still much bigger companies in other industries that would like this thing over yesterday.

 

[Thesuffering79]

This makes no sense and I am pretty sure you know it. For one you said they have so much power because they pay billions in taxes and then posted an article about how they dodge billions in taxes as proof of how much power they have!
But more importantly - there are more big pharma companies that don't have vaccines on the market, nations are losing trillions in business (and taxes) due to COVID, and there are still much bigger companies in other industries that would like this thing over yesterday.

Because its not the money that the governments get that is the issue it is the money they get under the table that is. basically "show me a politician and i will show you someone corrupt" sort of deal. But yeah the fact that they pay billions in taxes doesnt matter at all.

 

[poppabk]

The best scientists also thought we didnt need the booster shots. Everything I know know about evolution says eventually there will be a mutation that penetrate the booster shot. Its not a matter of if, rather when. Same goes for our natural immune system, but our immune system is more adaptive and lasts upto 1 year. Current data shows once you have the virus and survive you are 6x less likely to die from it than the vaccine. In fact the only case i know of where the person died after surviving covid is where the persons got the vaccine after surviving.

The virus will undergo mutations no matter what vaccine is created that is the nature of life. Eventually it ill hit on a mutation that will penetrate our current vaccines and another one, our immune system.

I think overall its best not to hedge bets on something like this. It is better to have 2 groups. One that has the vaccines and another that survived the vaccines. A corona virus is not going to die out if the whole human population is vaccinated because it will just pass onto an animal or bird or whatever that is why it is dangerous. And Covid 19 is the most unpredictable of the coronaviruses because someone inserted hiv strains into it.





No I am advocating for a small amount of time social segregation for a small amount of time where the group that wants to be infected, get infected(some will die of course) and once the whole group no longer has the virus, desegregate.

Currently the lockdowns etc are not going to work effectively. In the short term the virus is not going to kill many people assuming 100% vaccinations. But long term the virus is going to mutate and mutate into another major pandemic where vaccines wont work. In that scenario having two types of immunities is better than having just one.

You have no idea of what you are talking about. It's actually painful. There is just one immune system, there isn't a natural immune system and a vaccine immune system. If you have a breakthrough infection after vaccination, your immune system doesnt just give up, it continues to fight the infection 'naturally', except you already have a head start - hence why you are less likely to get severe symptoms or die. Then afterwards you have your 'natural' immunity.
When was the last time you heard of someone dying of whooping cough? Used to be a big killer until they came out with a vaccine, a vaccine that needs multiple boosters and which often has break through infections.

 

[BadBurger]

Ok so the latest pivot from the anti-vaxxers is a reliance on natural immunity. That worked out well for Europe when they kept losing massive portions of their populations to each new strain of the plague over centuries.

Why stamp this thing out as we did smallpox? What's the fun in that, to saving millions and getting the world back to normal? No, let's instead open everything back up! No masks, no vaccines! Let's let SARS-CoV-2 keep replicating and mutating and reinfecting everyone until the last of us danse macabre into the sweet oblivion of the beyond.

Edit:

Here's a thread on Reddit with a physician answering questions about treating COVID patients, particularly the unvaccinated (because they're like 99% of admissions). Just a warning, it's on a subreddit who take gleeful schadenfreude in the suffering of others so I wouldn't stray too far outside that thread:




From that discussion, a few people here should read this reply in particular, as posting non peer-reviewed, pre-print studies seems like a hobby for them. The physician also links to a great summary on Ivermectin and COVID-19:

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Polio is basically gone. There might be a small number here and there, but it's a virus that was 99.99% eradicated. It used to be a biggie long time ago where people died or survived with a limped leg.

To be fair, I can understand anti-vaxxers unsure about covid vaccines because it seemed rushed and dished out to the general public like 10 months after, whereas your typical vaccine is probably 10 years in the making. So many have a belief two years from now, side effects from all vaxxed people will be we all have a third arm growing out of our bodies, and they can sit back and laugh at us being guinea pigs.

But for vaccines in general that are proven and have been around for 50 years, not sure what the big deal is.

Is it the needle? Is it the hassle of taking a trip or two to a doctor's office? It cant be the cost, these things are should be free. Most vaccines people take they wouldnt even remember since they got it either as a toddler or in elementary school. Your parents took you one day, you probably cried getting a needle, but you were so young you don't even remember when it happened.

I bet many anti-vaxxers are already vaccinated from other diseases but they just dont know it or remember. But since covid is something that came out of the blue and everyone can get the vaccine, they are too chicken to get a needle in their arm which you cant even feel.

For those of you afraid of needles, the covid shot isn't like getting blood taken where they jab a big needle in your vein to draw blood. The covid vaccine needle is so small and thin you wont even know the staff member put it in your arm.

 

[Thesuffering79]

You have no idea of what you are talking about. It's actually painful. There is just one immune system, there isn't a natural immune system and a vaccine immune system. If you have a breakthrough infection after vaccination, your immune system doesnt just give up, it continues to fight the infection 'naturally', except you already have a head start - hence why you are less likely to get severe symptoms or die. Then afterwards you have your 'natural' immunity.
When was the last time you heard of someone dying of whooping cough? Used to be a big killer until they came out with a vaccine, a vaccine that needs multiple boosters and which often has break through infections.

No the way the human handles a virus of any kind is different to how the immune system using a vaccine handles it.

Basically a vaccine tells the immune system how to deal with a virus and the immune system adapts to what the vaccine tells it to.

The way the human immune system adapts to a virus is different to how any vaccine tells it to in general.

 

[Rentahamster]

The best scientists also thought we didnt need the booster shots. Everything I know know about evolution says eventually there will be a mutation that penetrate the booster shot. Its not a matter of if, rather when. Same goes for our natural immune system, but our immune system is more adaptive and lasts upto 1 year. Current data shows once you have the virus and survive you are 6x less likely to die from it than the vaccine. In fact the only case i know of where the person died after surviving covid is where the persons got the vaccine after surviving.

The virus will undergo mutations no matter what vaccine is created that is the nature of life. Eventually it ill hit on a mutation that will penetrate our current vaccines and another one, our immune system.

"Everything I know about evolution". That's the problem. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I think overall its best not to hedge bets on something like this. It is better to have 2 groups. One that has the vaccines and another that survived the vaccines. A corona virus is not going to die out if the whole human population is vaccinated because it will just pass onto an animal or (bird) or whatever that is why it is dangerous. And Covid 19 is the most unpredictable of the coronaviruses because someone inserted hiv strains into it.

If the whole human population is vaccinated, of course it will die out because it can't spread anywhere anymore. That's how we eradicated polio and smallpox. Human to animal transmission is low, and probably not a problem, especially if 100% of the world is vaccinated. Someone inserted HIV strains into it? That's not supported by evidence.

No I am advocating for a small amount of time social segregation for a small amount of time where the group that wants to be infected, get infected(some will die of course) and once the whole group no longer has the virus, desegregate.

Once the group no longer has the virus? What are you talking about? In any large population of unvaccinated or partially vaccinated humans, a virus will always stick around. That's why we have the flu and all the other viruses in the world which we haven't eradicated yet. Sans vaccination efforts, a virus doesn't just disappear from a group.

Currently the lockdowns etc are not going to work effectively. In the short term the virus is not going to kill many people assuming 100% vaccinations. But long term the virus is going to mutate and mutate into another major pandemic where vaccines wont work. In that scenario having two types of immunities is better than having just one.

The virus will probably mutate but the chances of that happening are a lot lower the more people are vaccinated. All the variants we are dealing with today arose last year when the world was unvaccinated. Now, more of the world is vaccinated, and if vaccinations were truly causing the acceleration and spread of mutant variants, we'd be drowning in them by now.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Ok so the latest pivot from the anti-vaxxers is a reliance on natural immunity. That worked out well for Europe when they kept losing massive portions of their populations to each new strain of the plague over centuries.

Why stamp this thing out as we did smallpox? What's the fun in that, to saving millions and getting the world back to normal? No, let's instead open everything back up! No masks, no vaccines! Let's let SARS-CoV-2 keep replicating and mutating and reinfecting everyone until the last of us danse macabre into the sweet oblivion of the beyond.

Edit:

Here's a thread on Reddit with a physician answering questions about treating COVID patients, particularly the unvaccinated (because they're like 99% of admissions). Just a warning, it's on a subreddit who take gleeful schadenfreude in the suffering of others so I wouldn't stray too far outside that thread:

Unless someone can prove covid vaccines are shit, ineffective and all vaccinated people turn into zombies from side effects, this whole ordeal of anti-vaxxers is really no different than other societal issues where the people who are responsible and pay taxes to comp the tax pool, so that bottom feeders who are too lazy or stubborn get lucky the rest of society carries the load.

At least for taxes and jobs and social assistance, people are on their own in their own home to wallow at their lives.

Unvaccinated covid cases on the other hand eat up medical costs and hospital beds when most of these cases could be prevented if they just lined up for a free 10 second vaccine shot which is available from a million drug stores, hospitals, and doc offices. It's not like getting a vax shot is impossible, takes forever and $1000s of dollars out of your own pocket.

 

[Schattenjäger]

Polio is basically gone. There might be a small number here and there, but it's a virus that was 99.99% eradicated. It used to be a biggie long time ago where people died or survived with a limped leg.

To be fair, I can understand anti-vaxxers unsure about covid vaccines because it seemed rushed and dished out to the general public like 10 months after, whereas your typical vaccine is probably 10 years in the making. So many have a belief two years from now, side effects from all vaxxed people will be we all have a third arm growing out of our bodies, and they can sit back and laugh at us being guinea pigs.

But for vaccines in general that are proven and have been around for 50 years, not sure what the big deal is.

Is it the needle? Is it the hassle of taking a trip or two to a doctor's office? It cant be the cost, these things are should be free. Most vaccines people take they wouldnt even remember since they got it either as a toddler or in elementary school. Your parents took you one day, you probably cried getting a needle, but you were so young you don't even remember when it happened.

I bet many anti-vaxxers are already vaccinated from other diseases but they just dont know it or remember. But since covid is something that came out of the blue and everyone can get the vaccine, they are too chicken to get a needle in their arm which you cant even feel.

For those of you afraid of needles, the covid shot isn't like getting blood taken where they jab a big needle in your vein to draw blood. The covid vaccine needle is so small and thin you wont even know the staff member put it in your arm.

I’d say the flu shot was more painful

 

[clem84]

Don't know if this has been posted already.

In short, they don't know how dangerous it is yet, just that it is the most mutated version of the original Wuhan virus so far.

New COVID variant detected in South Africa, most mutated variant so far

The C.1.2 variant first detected in South Africa is more mutated compared to the original virus than any other known variant.

www.jpost.com

 

[Thesuffering79]

"Everything I know about evolution". That's the problem. You have no idea what you're talking about.


If the whole human population is vaccinated, of course it will die out because it can't spread anywhere anymore. That's how we eradicated polio and smallpox. Human to animal transmission is low, and probably not a problem, especially if 100% of the world is vaccinated. Someone inserted HIV strains into it? That's not supported by evidence.


Once the group no longer has the virus? What are you talking about? In any large population of unvaccinated or partially vaccinated humans, a virus will always stick around. That's why we have the flu and all the other viruses in the world which we haven't eradicated yet. Sans vaccination efforts, a virus doesn't just disappear from a group.


The virus will probably mutate but the chances of that happening are a lot lower the more people are vaccinated. All the variants we are dealing with today arose last year when the world was unvaccinated. Now, more of the world is vaccinated, and if vaccinations were truly causing the acceleration and spread of mutant variants, we'd be drowning in them by now.

So watch Denmark or whatever and see if there is a resurgence next year despite them being 80%+ vaccinated. As for human to animal transmission, of course it is a problem, otherwise we can have herd immunity. As for HIV strains in the virus. Yes I was wrong about HIV in Covid 19. It was a claim by a Nobel laureate. I guess even they are fallible.

The virus will stick around but it it wont affect those that recovered from the virus in general for at least a year. The question is if the immune system has learned to respond to the virus after that. So far all we have is the antibodies reduce over time but it doesnt meant that the body doesnt know how to respond to the virus. If you spread the virus to those who are willing, then it should be over and done with in a couple of weeks and at minimum last a year. Will be stronger than vaccinations but people will die obviously.

There are quite a few new mutations this year:

COVID-19: Variants and Mutations List

Information and list of Variant of Concern (VOC) and Variant Under Investigation (VUI) mutations of COVID-19 coronavirus (2019-nCoV).

www.disabled-world.com

Mutation rate of COVID-19 virus is at least 50 percent higher than previously thought

The virus that causes COVID-19 mutates almost once a week—significantly higher than the rate estimated previously—according to a new study by scientists from the Universities of Bath and Edinburgh. Their findings indicate that new variants could emerge more quickly than thought previously.

phys.org

A few not on the list too like the Lambda Variant which is apparently not stopped by vaccines.

New study reveals the biggest danger of the lambda variant

A new study suggests the lambda variant of the coronavirus might not be stopped by COVID-19 vaccines.

www.deseret.com

 

[BadBurger]

Don't know if this has been posted already.

In short, they don't know how dangerous it is yet, just that it is the most mutated version of the original Wuhan virus so far.

New COVID variant detected in South Africa, most mutated variant so far

The C.1.2 variant first detected in South Africa is more mutated compared to the original virus than any other known variant.

www.jpost.com

I believe Game Analyst did, yes. I don't know what the ramifications are for a variant having so many mutations. I do know that some coronaviruses that infected humans in the past mutated so much that they turned into strains that no longer infected humans.

I used to have a coronavirus database linked with all of the hundreds of known ones over time, their origins and mutated strains and all, but I lost it when I bought a new PC after changing from Firefox to Chrome and now I can't find the fucking thing again..... grr

 

[Thesuffering79]

I believe Game Analyst did, yes. I don't know what the ramifications are for a variant having so many mutations. I do know that some coronaviruses that infected humans in the past mutated so much that they turned into strains that no longer infected humans.

I used to have a coronavirus database linked with all of the hundreds of known ones over time, their origins and mutated strains and all, but I lost it when I bought a new PC after changing from Firefox to Chrome and now I can't find the fucking thing again..... grr

I lost that link too. maybe it went away because it wasnt updated or something. As corrupt as google is I doubt that they would stop this information from spreading for no reason.

 

[Rentahamster]

So watch Denmark or whatever and see if there is a resurgence next year despite them being 80%+ vaccinated. As for human to animal transmission, of course it is a problem, otherwise we can have herd immunity.

You mean this Denmark? That highly vaccinated country that contrary to your speculations somehow has a death rate that is an order of magnitude lower than the United States?

COVID-19 Data Explorer

Explore global data on COVID-19.

ourworldindata.org

This Denmark that is going to scrap all their COVID19 restrictions next month because they all worked together to implement protections and mitigations as a society and now get to reap the benefits of that?

https://www.thelocal.dk/20210827/denmark-to-scrap-all-covid-19-restrictions-next-month/

“The epidemic is under control, we have record high vaccination rates,” he said in a statement. “As a result, on September 10th, we can drop some of the special rules we have had to introduce in the fight against Covid-19.”

September 10th marks the expiry date for that the executive order classifying Covid-19 as a “socially critical illness”, which was passed by the Danish parliament’s Epidemic Committee on March 10th last year.

As for HIV strains in the virus. Yes I was wrong about HIV in Covid 19. It was a claim by a Nobel laureate. I guess even they are fallible.

Your sources of information are flawed. In your participation in this thread you have made multiple errors because you take the word of faulty sources. This should give you a clue as to what's wrong.

The virus will stick around but it it wont affect those that recovered from the virus in general for at least a year. The question is if the immune system has learned to respond to the virus after that. So far all we have is the antibodies reduce over time but it doesnt meant that the body doesnt know how to respond to the virus. If you spread the virus to those who are willing, then it should be over and done with in a couple of weeks and at minimum last a year. Will be stronger than vaccinations but people will die obviously.

"but people will die obviously"

The point is to keep people from dying via the vaccine.

Your logic is completely messed up. You want to deliberately expose people with no natural immunity to a virus that might kill them, in order to protect them from that same virus? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?

There are quite a few new mutations this year:

There's a lot of mutations as there usually are, but where are the new strains that are outcompeting delta like delta outcompeted alpha and beta? And did those strains come from a highly vaccinated population?

 

[Thesuffering79]

You mean this Denmark? That highly vaccinated country that contrary to your speculations somehow has a death rate that is an order of magnitude lower than the United States?

COVID-19 Data Explorer

Explore global data on COVID-19.

ourworldindata.org

This Denmark that is going to scrap all their COVID19 restrictions next month because they all worked together to implement protections and mitigations as a society and now get to reap the benefits of that?

https://www.thelocal.dk/20210827/denmark-to-scrap-all-covid-19-restrictions-next-month/

Your sources of information are flawed. In your participation in this thread you have made multiple errors because you take the word of faulty sources. This should give you a clue as to what's wrong.


"but people will die obviously"

The point is to keep people from dying via the vaccine.

Your logic is completely messed up. You want to deliberately expose people with no natural immunity to a virus that might kill them, in order to protect them from that same virus? Do you realize how crazy that sounds?


There's a lot of mutations as there usually are, but where are the new strains that are outcompeting delta like delta outcompeted alpha and beta? And did those strains come from a highly vaccinated population?

Yes i know about Denmark. The virus comes and goes in waves. I am curious to see if Denmark will be immune to the next wave next year.


It is the one source of information that is flawed. What are the other sources?


People will die with the vaccine too and now there is a variant that beats the vaccines. A lot of people are going to die if that spreads. It already exists in Texas. As for my logic being messed up it is a failsafe measure, cruel yet i believe to be pragmatic *shrugs*. And many people are willing to get the virus so why not let them? You can use that hermancain award of yours when some of them they die.


The Lambda strain came from Peru which wasnt really vaccinated last year.

 

[reksveks]

Hmm, shit just repeats itself

 

[BadBurger]

Hmm, shit just repeats itself

Yea, George Washington forced his entire army and the various militias he was summoning under his banner to inoculate (edit: against smallpox during the Continental Army's refuge in Valley Forge) during the Revolutionary War after his own experiences with outbreaks. Jefferson, a greater man when it came to science, would never have been anti-vaxx. But remember, these people aren't exactly students of history, they have no idea what they're talking about.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Yea, George Washington forced his entire army and the various militias he was summoning under his banner to inoculate (edit: against smallpox during the Continental Army's refuge in Valley Forge) during the Revolutionary War after his own experiences with outbreaks. Jefferson, a greater man when it came to science, would never have been anti-vaxx. But remember, these people aren't exactly students of history, they have no idea what they're talking about.

"Well, smallpox is dangerous and covid is not" as they gasp for breath and eat some more horse paste.

 

[Rentahamster]

Yes i know about Denmark. The virus comes and goes in waves. I am curious to see if Denmark will be immune to the next wave next year.

They will if the available vaccine next year is still effective against whatever strain is out there next year, and if they keep their discipline with vaccination coverage and infection mitigation strategies.

It is the one source of information that is flawed. What are the other sources?

Your next sentence, for example.

People will die with the vaccine too and now there is a variant that beats the vaccines. A lot of people are going to die if that spreads. It already exists in Texas.

There is not a variant that "beats" the vaccines. Look again at the charts I posted before that has a GIANT gap in between the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.

Show proof of a variant in Texas that "beats" the vaccines. Doesn't seem like that's the case.

80% of the hospitalized patients being admitted are unvaccinated. If the virus was "beating" the vaccine, the admission rates would mirror the vaccination rates.

As for my logic being messed up it is a failsafe measure, cruel yet i believe to be pragmatic *shrugs*. And many people are willing to get the virus so why not let them? You can use that hermancain award of yours when some of them they die.

It is not pragmatic to expose people to a risk of death in order to prevent them from that same chance of death. That is the opposite of pragmatism.

 

[MisterFalcon]

If all the vaccine refusers just stay home and take their horse paste they only stress the undertakers. Now they take up hospital beds, make life for the staff miserable whining for miracle drugs and keep people who need and want actual medical care on waiting lists.

 

[12Goblins]

I like how we are pretending that this thread hasn't been all but civil. sorry the facts hurt your feelings, I guess

 

[12Goblins]

Ok so the latest pivot from the anti-vaxxers is a reliance on natural immunity. That worked out well for Europe when they kept losing massive portions of their populations to each new strain of the plague over centuries.

Why stamp this thing out as we did smallpox? What's the fun in that, to saving millions and getting the world back to normal? No, let's instead open everything back up! No masks, no vaccines! Let's let SARS-CoV-2 keep replicating and mutating and reinfecting everyone until the last of us danse macabre into the sweet oblivion of the beyond.

Edit:

Here's a thread on Reddit with a physician answering questions about treating COVID patients, particularly the unvaccinated (because they're like 99% of admissions). Just a warning, it's on a subreddit who take gleeful schadenfreude in the suffering of others so I wouldn't stray too far outside that thread:




From that discussion, a few people here should read this reply in particular, as posting non peer-reviewed, pre-print studies seems like a hobby for them. The physician also links to a great summary on Ivermectin and COVID-19:

completely true about ivermectin. anecdotally, at first doctors were very eager to try it on everyone but now that antivaxers have hijacked it and cling to it in order to avoid getting vaccinated they are way more reluctant to use it. just like plaquenil

 

[BadBurger]

I like how we are pretending that this thread hasn't been all but civil. sorry the facts hurt your feelings, I guess

The only time that I felt I was out of line I later apologized to the guy. There have been a few people from every angle who have been, er, less tactful than I would care for, but nothing really bad - especially for an internet discussion forum.

It seems most users announcing their departure ran out of arguments as each of them were proven wrong by the simple facts and situation on the ground - the largest being that now that the vaccines have been available for months, 99.xx% of all hospitalizations and deaths are from unvaccinated patients - gee, who would have thunk?

At times it may seem that we're "rubbing it in" but my dudes, if you keep being factually wrong over and over perhaps you should do some self reflection and admit you're being illogically contrarian for some reason: it's not us, it's you.

 

[Belgorim]

I feel like with countries using different restrictions and different kind of lockdowns, masking requirements, work from home etc. there are things to discuss (some we are not allowed to bicker about though, see thread title).

I do not get many of the vaccine arguments though. The vaccines clearly work. After vaccinating our elderly our death rate was incredibly low during the third wave here even though both cases and hospitalisations was high. I do not believe mandates are the best course of action, but some countries seem to meet hesitancy way too early and they might be forced to use such actions. It should all depend on if your system can handle it. Would be better if information campaigns and such worked though.

 

[Rentahamster]

Unfortunately, David Fuller's Ivermectin/Dark Horse videos have repeatedly been struck by the Youtube banhammer, even though he's fighting against misinformation often at significant cost to his own channel. If you appreciate his work and have the means, please take a moment to support him:

YouTube also gave them a community guidelines strike. That's fucked up.

 

[12Goblins]

clearly they don't want the any kind of open discussion to take place on their platform, and at this point I can't reproach them for it since we have shown time and time again that we are incapable of doing it in a diligent and responsible manner. another way these antivaxxer pea brains are once again fucking up free speech for everyone, when really they just used the pretense of free speech to express their idiotic beliefs. they will just as quickly throw away free speech when it is no longer advantageous to them, like parasites

 

[Thesuffering79]

They will if the available vaccine next year is still effective against whatever strain is out there next year, and if they keep their discipline with vaccination coverage and infection mitigation strategies.


Your next sentence, for example.

There is not a variant that "beats" the vaccines. Look again at the charts I posted before that has a GIANT gap in between the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.

Show proof of a variant in Texas that "beats" the vaccines. Doesn't seem like that's the case.

80% of the hospitalized patients being admitted are unvaccinated. If the virus was "beating" the vaccine, the admission rates would mirror the vaccination rates.


It is not pragmatic to expose people to a risk of death in order to prevent them from that same chance of death. That is the opposite of pragmatism.

This was an article 4 days prior. So I guess the week earlier.

Unvaccinated People in Texas Are 185 Times More Likely to Be Hospitalized, 85 Times More Likely to Die From Covid

The hospitalization rate for those unvaccinated against Covid-19 in Texas is 185 times the rate for the vaccinated, according to a New York Times analysis of breakthrough infections in the state. The death rate for the unvaccinated in Texas is 85 times more than that for the vaccinated. The...

www.mediaite.com

So the rate of infection among the fully vaccinated has increased.


As for same chance of death, I actually cant find the data or study on that anymore. So I guess you win here. I will bow out.

 

[QSD]

YouTube also gave them a community guidelines strike. That's fucked up.

Oh darn, I was pretty sure they would grant the appeal considering the content. But Youtube gotta Youtube apparantly. What is a community guidelines strike?

 

[Rentahamster]

This was an article 4 days prior. So I guess the week earlier.

Unvaccinated People in Texas Are 185 Times More Likely to Be Hospitalized, 85 Times More Likely to Die From Covid

The hospitalization rate for those unvaccinated against Covid-19 in Texas is 185 times the rate for the vaccinated, according to a New York Times analysis of breakthrough infections in the state. The death rate for the unvaccinated in Texas is 85 times more than that for the vaccinated. The...

www.mediaite.com

So the rate of infection among the fully vaccinated has increased.


As for same chance of death, I actually cant find the data or study on that anymore. So I guess you win here. I will bow out.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that article or that the rate of infection among the fully vaccinated gas increased. It's clear that vaccinated people are much less vulnerable to covid 19. Therefore covid is not beating the vaccine. The vaccine is beating covid.

As for chance of death you don't even need to know that for your argument to fall apart. Your goal is to prevent people from getting sick with COVID, right? That means your solution cannot be to get them sick with COVID.

The whole point is to prevent COVID, so it's absurd to think you prevent COVID by getting them sick with COVID. That is the opposite of what your goals are.

 

[Ichabod]

Ok so the latest pivot from the anti-vaxxers is a reliance on natural immunity. That worked out well for Europe when they kept losing massive portions of their populations to each new strain of the plague over centuries.

Why stamp this thing out as we did smallpox? What's the fun in that, to saving millions and getting the world back to normal? No, let's instead open everything back up! No masks, no vaccines! Let's let SARS-CoV-2 keep replicating and mutating and reinfecting everyone until the last of us danse macabre into the sweet oblivion of the beyond.

About that, smallpox didn't have animal reservoirs. There is no way to eliminate a virus from existence if animals can be reservoirs for it. Case in point, Bambi is now a potential superspreader:

USDA APHIS | Surveillance Data Shows White-Tailed Deer Exposed to SARS-CoV-2

www.aphis.usda.gov

 

[Rentahamster]

Oh darn, I was pretty sure they would grant the appeal considering the content. But Youtube gotta Youtube apparantly. What is a community guidelines strike?

Can't upload content for a week and if you accumulate 3 strikes in a 90 day period you get banned.

 

[FireFly]

clearly they don't want the any kind of open discussion to take place on their platform, and at this point I can't reproach them for it since we have shown time and time again that we are incapable of doing it in a diligent and responsible manner. another way these antivaxxer pea brains are once again fucking up free speech for everyone, when really they just used the pretense of free speech to express their idiotic beliefs. they will just as quickly throw away free speech when it is no longer advantageous to them, like parasites

YouTube isn't some neutral platform for everyone to express their ideas on an equal footing. They decide what content gets promoted and how many people get to see it, and if anti-vaccine videos weren't recommended by their algorithm, they wouldn't spread. Moreover, the algorithms they use have no conception of what is "true" or not; only what will keep people "engaged" and glued to their screen looking at ads. If recommending a never-ending stream of anti-vaccine videos to someone keeps them stuck down the YouTube rabbit hole, the algorithms will happily do it.

YouTube is not an innocent bystander. They are directly responsible for the mess we are in.

 

[Kev Kev]

a lot of people like to attack vaccine hesitant or anti vax people. i think this is the worst approach, and if youre doing it, please understand it is only going to push those people further way, not convince them to get vaxxed. so, please stop, for all of our sake's.

instead, id like to throw out a take from someone who was vax hesitant and sympathizes with their fears... that person being myself of course...

as a vaccine hesitant person, at this point, with bazillions of people benefitting from the vaccine, if you are still against it i really question what it is your still afraid of. so many have benefitted from this, and so many people who havent got the shot are in hospitals or dead. i personally waited until just a month ago to get it. a lot of us hold outs are getting them this week or very soon.

this thing isnt dangerous and its not making people grow a third arm out of their asshole lol. i got both shots and i feel fine. i sympathize and understand why people were hesitant, i even sympathize a bit with the anti-vax crowd. but ultimately, there are just too many people who have taken it and been fine and too many people dying, who havent taken it, for you to to keep holding out.

ill never understand people who were frothing at the mouth and lining up to get this shit injected into them. but that was their choice, and it was our choice to pump the brakes, and it still is everyones choice to get it or not get it. but there just isnt much of an argument left at this point. i understand why you waited or were resistant, but as someone who felt the same, i think its time for you to start considering getting the vaccine soon. just consider it! you dont have to make a choice right now. just give the thought a chance and weigh the pros and cons. i think youll see its worth it and youll live thorough it and theres no micro chips lol, and youre gonna be fine. and youll get a bit of protection from a virus that, quite frankly as someone who had it, makes you feel like shit and is no fun.

booster shots can fuck off tho. ill be playing the wait and see game on that too. as someone actually who had covid and both pfizer shots, from what i understand ive got some of the best protection from the virus already, so im not too worried about it atm. its really the same situation as the original shots for me, at this point. im gonna pump the brakes and see how the landscape looks 6 months to a year from now, and ill make a decision then.

 

[FunkMiller]

a lot of people like to attack vaccine hesitant or anti vax people. i think this is the worst approach, and if youre doing it, please understand it is only going to push those people further way, not convince them to get vaxxed. so, please stop, for all of our sake's.

Nice post Kev

I think there's a strong line drawn between people who are vaccine hesitant, and those who go out of their way to spread misinformation about the vaccines.

I am entirely sympathetic to the first group of people. Getting shit injected into your body is never the preferable choice that anyone would take. And for people with trypanophobia, it’s even worse.

My personal ire is reserved only for people who are convincing the vaccine hesitant to not have the vaccine, by spreading misinformation and lies. Those are the ones I cheerfully admit to being angry at. They are directly putting other people’s lives at risk.

So, I definitely have huge sympathy for some of these poor fuckers who die screaming for help in an ICU and regretting listening to the wrong people. They have been lied to and cheated literally out of their lives.

But those wrong people? Like the radio show hosts, and the pastors, and the social media heavyweights, and the politicians, and the people in other positions of authority? Fuck them all the way to Hades for what they are doing to innocent people

 

[Rentahamster]

If you spread the virus to those who are willing, then it should be over and done with in a couple of weeks and at minimum last a year. Will be stronger than vaccinations but people will die obviously.

I also forgot to give you this real world example to show you that "natural" immunity is not necessarily better than immunity generated by vaccines.

Lollapalooza took place recently, with a very highly vaccination rate among attendees. They were all very close together outdoors.

The Sturgis Rally also took place in highly crowded outdoor areas. The difference was that there was no vaccine mandate for Sturgis and South Dakota's vaccination rate is low. However, their natural immunity levels are estimated to be somewhat high.

What was the result? Relatively few people got sick from Lollapalooza, but lots of people got sick from Sturgis.

 

[CAB_Life]

Ok so the latest pivot from the anti-vaxxers is a reliance on natural immunity. That worked out well for Europe when they kept losing massive portions of their populations to each new strain of the plague over centuries.

Why stamp this thing out as we did smallpox? What's the fun in that, to saving millions and getting the world back to normal? No, let's instead open everything back up! No masks, no vaccines! Let's let SARS-CoV-2 keep replicating and mutating and reinfecting everyone until the last of us danse macabre into the sweet oblivion of the beyond.

Edit:

Here's a thread on Reddit with a physician answering questions about treating COVID patients, particularly the unvaccinated (because they're like 99% of admissions). Just a warning, it's on a subreddit who take gleeful schadenfreude in the suffering of others so I wouldn't stray too far outside that thread:




From that discussion, a few people here should read this reply in particular, as posting non peer-reviewed, pre-print studies seems like a hobby for them. The physician also links to a great summary on Ivermectin and COVID-19:

There is credible, wide-scale evidence of natural immunity offering a broader range of immune markers as well as minimized risk of infection, hospitalization and serious disease—I have linked those cohorts in previous replies. HOWEVER, the only people who seem to have a chance of shirking, naturally, the worst of Covid are highly athletic individuals, with almost no midsection visceral fat, which discounts 99% of the population, antivaxxers included. “Highly athletic” being scientifically measured (as per the study) as 90 minutes of vigourous exercise—cardio, weights, mobility—a minimum of 5 days per week.

As someone who has a network spanning 20 years in health and fitness, I’d say that’s maybe 1/5 of my friends and associates, aside from myself (I’m 7 days/ week with active rest cycles). So while it is statistically irrelevant in the immediate talking points, a focus on wellness versus this or future pandemics is of paramount importance moving forward. We (collectively) are long overdue for a discussion with our governments, our neighbours and our families on the role of personal health and accountability.

 

[Thesuffering79]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that article or that the rate of infection among the fully vaccinated gas increased. It's clear that vaccinated people are much less vulnerable to covid 19. Therefore covid is not bearing the vaccine. The vaccine is bearing covid.

As for chance of death you don't even need to know that for your argument to fall apart. Your goal is to prevent people from getting sick with COVID, right? That means your solution cannot be to get them sick with COVID.

The whole point is to prevent COVID, so it's absurd to think you prevent COVID by getting them sick with COVID. That is the opposite of what your goals are.

Forget it. Finding information is harder than ever these days and i am getting frustrated at getting data points. I am finding it harder and harder to find relevant information. I was lucky to find that ivmmeta site through a youtube vid otherwise there is no way to find information like that using a search.

I mean can you find the data point for covid deaths from people who recovered from covid? All i got it zero deaths from vaccinations and zero deaths from people who recovered from covid. Not useful for either of us since it is so low scale.

That last post you made isnt useful. You dont know if any of those people recovered from covid. I'll just bow out and do whatever. If i die, i die, Whatever.

 

[CAB_Life]

I also forgot to give you this real world example to show you that "natural" immunity is not necessarily better than immunity generated by vaccines.

Lollapalooza took place recently, with a very highly vaccination rate among attendees. They were all very close together outdoors.

The Sturgis Rally also took place in highly crowded outdoor areas. The difference was that there was no vaccine mandate for Sturgis and South Dakota's vaccination rate is low. However, their natural immunity levels are estimated to be somewhat high.

What was the result? Relatively few people got sick from Lollapalooza, but lots of people got sick from Sturgis.

Talking about ”natural immunity” out of conjunction with a healthy biome and extremely low visceral fat is useless. This is one area of the discussion where nuance is king. (I’m not accusing you of that btw, just the talking about the general dialog.)

 

[Punished Miku]

a lot of people like to attack vaccine hesitant or anti vax people. i think this is the worst approach, and if youre doing it, please understand it is only going to push those people further way, not convince them to get vaxxed. so, please stop, for all of our sake's.

instead, id like to throw out a take from someone who was vax hesitant and sympathizes with their fears... that person being myself of course...

as a vaccine hesitant person, at this point, with bazillions of people benefitting from the vaccine, if you are still against it i really question what it is your still afraid of. so many have benefitted from this, and so many people who havent got the shot are in hospitals or dead. i personally waited until just a month ago to get it. a lot of us hold outs are getting them this week or very soon.

this thing isnt dangerous and its not making people grow a third arm out of their asshole lol. i got both shots and i feel fine. i sympathize and understand why people were hesitant, i even sympathize a bit with the anti-vax crowd. but ultimately, there are just too many people who have taken it and been fine and too many people dying, who havent taken it, for you to to keep holding out.

ill never understand people who were frothing at the mouth and lining up to get this shit injected into them. but that was their choice, and it was our choice to pump the brakes, and it still is everyones choice to get it or not get it. but there just isnt much of an argument left at this point. i understand why you waited or were resistant, but as someone who felt the same, i think its time for you to start considering getting the vaccine soon. just consider it! you dont have to make a choice right now. just give the thought a chance and weigh the pros and cons. i think youll see its worth it and youll live thorough it and theres no micro chips lol, and youre gonna be fine. and youll get a bit of protection from a virus that, quite frankly as someone who had it, makes you feel like shit and is no fun.

booster shots can fuck off tho. ill be playing the wait and see game on that too. as someone actually who had covid and both pfizer shots, from what i understand ive got some of the best protection from the virus already, so im not too worried about it atm. its really the same situation as the original shots for me, at this point. im gonna pump the brakes and see how the landscape looks 6 months to a year from now, and ill make a decision then.

I think a decent chunk of people out there, 15-20% are going to ultimately be unreachable, no matter what approach people try to take. The damage is done. Trump just recently was at a rally in Alabama and tried to tell the attendees to get vaccinated because it's a good thing, and they booed Trump. Many people leaving the rally were interviewed and said they believe Trump never got the vaccine and just has to say that.

I sat in on some nursing meetings for a national health care company a few weeks back, and we had nurses from a few different states (including Florida) on there discussing policy changes regarding vaccine mandates at work, etc. It was honestly stunning to see how many nurses in a science-driven, medical profession were aggressively saying they weren't going to get vaccinated. Their primary reason appeared to be religious, with people openly saying in the meeting they think God is going to protect them from the virus (I guess all the dead people so far just weren't worthy), and then listing a dozen different conspiratorial concerns about the vaccine. Nurses, in a meeting at work (why even be a nurse if you think God takes care of all diseases?).

My point is that for a lot of people it's not really a rational discussion anymore. It's part of their religious conviction, or part of their political identity, and they're just as likely now to be persuaded to get vaccinated as they are likely to be persuaded to switch political parties. People have tried waiting 9 months, tried giving them money, tried paying for the vaccine and offering it for free, tried appeals from celebrities, republicans and democrats. Tried appeals from physicians. Tried appeals from ex-vaccine skeptics that ended up in the ICU and tell their story on the news about how they wish they got it.

The reality is that this last chunk of hardline anti-vaxers are fundamentalists in their beliefs, and ultimately I don't think we'll have a choice but to ban them from places of high risk; like, airports, public schools, certain jobs (including teachers, police, military, health care, and more).

Hopefully some of the people on the fence that were casually hesitant will decide to do the right thing, but a decent chunk of the people left probably never will. I don't really want to waste time thinking about how people feel about it, or what specific psychological tactic might finally convince people to get a free vaccine. At this point, they are free to not get it, but we should just limit the amount of damage they can do to others. I think 1 unvaccinated teacher recently just spread to 50 kids, and we'll continue to see stories like that going forward. Do I care about what might have finally convinced that teacher? At this point, not really. I think they just need to mandate it for teachers and just be done with it, and she can decide what she wants to do.

I'd rather that businesses didn't have to step in with this kind of measure, but we have proven as a society that nothing else is going to work at this point. The damage is done. Our health officials destroyed a lot of their credibility with flip-flopping mask statements, or media has destroyed their credibility on nearly everything for years, our previous president instilled a base sentiment of mask and vaccine skepticism that was embraced by his most hardcore fans, then that was fused with religious elements and churches and pastors have run with it. COVID's initial skepticism also happened at the same time as stop the steal movements, and BLM protests and got further politicized. I don't think that can all be undone. Even with all those huge mistakes, the government and businesses are not going to just sit around and watch people die and be put at risk and not do anything. They're going to keep slowly increasing the mandates, because that's really all that's left. And the sad thing is, ultimately the mandates will work. People will cave and go get their shot, and go to work, and life will go on.

 

[Rentahamster]

Their primary reason appeared to be religious, with people openly saying in the meeting they think God is going to protect them from the virus (I guess all the dead people so far just weren't worthy),

If we're being logically consistent with their belief structure, God is the one who designed, created, and unleashed the virus on them like an Egyptian plague.

 

[Punished Miku]

If we're being logically consistent with their belief structure, God is the one who designed, created, and unleashed the virus on them like an Egyptian plague.

Yeah, there's no logical consistency. I think the largely untold story of vaccine hesitancy will be religious fundamentalism. We've all discussed youtube, and bad articles, but not as much focus on people that literally think its the mark of the beast.

 

[12Goblins]

Forget it. Finding information is harder than ever these days and i am getting frustrated at getting data points. I am finding it harder and harder to find relevant information. I was lucky to find that ivmmeta site through a youtube vid otherwise there is no way to find information like that using a search.

I mean can you find the data point for covid deaths from people who recovered from covid? All i got it zero deaths from vaccinations and zero deaths from people who recovered from covid. Not useful for either of us since it is so low scale.

That last post you made isnt useful. You dont know if any of those people recovered from covid. I'll just bow out and do whatever. If i die, i die, Whatever.

I appreciate your posts since they seem to be in good faith. no one is here to shame you or anyone they disagree with in this thread, and if they are, shame on them. personally, I think you would benefit greatly from a college level course in philosophy; it will teach you how to take step back and examine the biases and tricks your mind pulls on itself in order to get what it wants.

 

[thefool]

Okay here is what i believe. Currently, the delta variant of the virus kills 0.1% of the people under 50 and 2-5% of the people over 50.

I believe the likely scenario is that in the next 5-10 years, the virus will evolve and kill 1% of the people under 50 and 10-20% of the people over 50 and in a more painful way and break through most vaccines. The next 10 years after that it will reach 5% for under 50s and 20-40% of the people over 50.

This is because in 2 years we already have the virus breaking through immunization causing the need for a booster shot. What is to say booster shots wont work in the future?

Don't know where you taking those numbers, best estimation of Delta cfr is the report from the UK about variants of concern that is sent to labs in a randomized (even if skewed population) way:

Under 50
Non-Vax 72/178k ≈ 0.04%
Vax 2 doses 27/40k ≈ 0.07%
(difference here is negligible)

Over 50
Non-Vax 318/4.8k ≈ 6.5%
Vax 2 doses 652/32.8k ≈ 1.99%
(strong evidence of the vax being highly effective on older populations even for the delta variant)

Investigation of SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern: technical briefings

Technical briefing documents on novel SARS-CoV-2 variants.

www.gov.uk

 

[Ownage]

Celebrate big titties.