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[StreetsofBeige]

Great post and I agree with almost all of it contents.

If more people would express their opinion in a way like you did with this post and less with reactions like "fuck you fucking conspiracy redneck", then some people would probably reconsider their decisions.

But nethertheless there are many unvaccinated people, who also take enormous care for others for exactly this reason (being unvaccinated). Even here the world is not always black or white.

And to make it clear what my personal position is: I think a mandatory vaccination for people 60+ or people with pre-conditions would fix almost all of the problems we have right now.




You must take into account that the ~70% are for the whole population and not only people for which the vaccine is approved. A not exactly small percentage can therefore not get vaccinated at all right now.




Where did I say this?

Of course vaccination decreases the risk for spreading the virus. At least for most people for a few months.

Do you think a person at risk cares if a person vaccinated five months ago is only 50-95% contagious and that the personat risk is therefor less careful? And do you also think that unvaccinated people generally don't give a shit whether they endanger others or not? Is it even possible that they might even be more careful than vaccinated people?

One thing I dont like about the gov and vax is the split personality.

On one hand, gov is trying to push for vaxxes as much as possible, safety protocols, spacing out etc....

BUT then they got loopholes like "if youre super religious, you are exempt". What kind of cop out is that? Now if it's someone who has a medical condition that's different. You dont want to force a vax on someone who might die from it. But there's no good reason for everyone to be getting vaxxed and following directions, but then some guy says he's exempt because some holy book or scripture he got from a priest says vaxxes dont apply.

And then there's the whole angle regarding stadiums. Restaurants, stores, theatres etc...can have full lockdown or partial lockdown. But then you got stadiums and arenas with people sardined at half capacity which can still be 10,000 people + workers. Makes zero sense.

 

[FunkMiller]

Of course vaccination decreases the risk for spreading the virus. At least for most people for a few months.

If you acknowledge that being vaccinated means you are less likely to transmit covid to vulnerable people, and that the vaccines are safe... what possible, decent reason is there to not get the vaccine?

You state above that it's okay for people to not get vaccinated on principal - as long as it doesn't endanger others... but now you acknowledge that to be unvaccinated does put others at greater risk.

So, again... the 'self determined' principal is "I know this safe vaccine will help others, but I'm still not going to get it". That's the shittiest 'principal' I've ever heard.

 

[caffeware]

you need to realize that there are responsible venues to express these concerns and that there are a lot of good people doing that (not the people of facebook). It's not by chance that we have an incredibly safe and effective vaccine.

you sound like an government spokesperson.

 

[betrayal]

If you acknowledge that being vaccinated means you are less likely to transmit covid to vulnerable people, and that the vaccines are safe... what possible, decent reason is there to not get the vaccine?

You state above that it's okay for people to not get vaccinated on principal - as long as it doesn't endanger others... but now you acknowledge that to be unvaccinated does put others at greater risk.

So, again... the 'self determined' principal is "I know this safe vaccine will help others, but I'm still not going to get it". That's the shittiest 'principal' I've ever heard.

If everything that can protect others is obligatory for you, then your and all our lives would look completely different now.

It always depends on the proportionality.

Do you know of cases where unvaccinated people are responsible for the death of others? The question of how many infections and deaths vaccinated are responsible for is just as meaningless.

I would even agree with you if the worst-case scenario that you permanently assume would also correspond to reality. But it doesn't, and our world and our lives are largely based on decisions that are always made on the basis of a certain sense of proportion. Most unvaccinated people are not murderers or conscious offenders. They are just as considerate of other perhaps more vulnerable people as you and I are. The only group of people that the unvaccinated (referring to the COVID vaccination, not general antivaxxers) endanger are, for the very most part, themselves. I personally do not share their decision, but I can accept it without directly condemning the people responsible for it.

 

[FunkMiller]

I would even agree with you if the worst-case scenario that you permanently assume would also correspond to reality. But it doesn't, and our world and our lives are largely based on decisions that are always made on the basis of a certain sense of proportion. Most unvaccinated people are not murderers or conscious offenders. They are just as considerate of other perhaps more vulnerable people as you and I are. The only group of people that the unvaccinated (referring to the COVID vaccination, not general antivaxxers) endanger are, for the very most part, themselves. I personally do not share their decision, but I can accept it without directly condemning the people responsible for it.

No. This is not true. You’ve even agreed this is not true. They are consciously endangering the lives of vulnerable people who cannot get the vaccine. Unvaccinated people spread Covid worse than vaccinated.

You endlessly talk in circles.

And if you can’t bring yourself to condemn an attitude of “Even though I know this safe vaccine helps others less fortunate than myself, I’m still not going to take it” that what does that say about you?

 

[betrayal]

[...] They are consciously endangering the lives of vulnerable people who cannot get the vaccine. Unvaccinated people spread influenza (and other viruses) worse than vaccinated.

And if you can’t bring yourself to condemn an attitude of “Even though I know this safe vaccine helps others less fortunate than myself, I’m still not going to take it” that what does that say about you?

How does the slightly modified quote look to you? Do you already feel guilty?


Also do you have any idea how people who can't get certain vaccinations live? How many of them are there? How many unvaccinated people do you know who have contact with such people? Somehow, many people have the idea in their heads that, for example, seriously ill people (cancer, etc.) cannot be vaccinated. This is absolute nonsense and not true.

It seems to me that you are not aware of simple numbers and the relations, lifestyles and the social environments of these people.

You treat this group of people as if they make up 10% of the population, but fortunately they only make up an extremely small percentage of 0.005% or less. Of this 0.005%, the vast majority of people can't get the vaccine due to allergies. And by the way, these people are not more at risk than other unvaccinated people when getting infected.

Context is important.

 

[Jsisto]

We talk as if somehow if everyone came together and condemned antivaxers, COVID would be over. If only everyone could agree that these people are the worst of the worst, we could go back to living normal lives! Real life is more complicated than that, especially for those of us that don’t have the luxury of working from home, and have to interact with a variety of people on a day to day basis. I work with several people who have chosen not to get vaccinated. Aside from this one personal choice they made, they are considerate of others, they wear their masks. They don’t go on rants about the vaccine. There’s this caricature of what the average antivaxer is like, probably formed from watching the absolute worst possible representation of this person on the news. They’re just people. Are they wrong? Yeah, I’d argue they probably should get the vaccine. But right now it’s their choice. Whether I think they should or not means absolutely nothing. I still have to work with them and interact with them, and that’s fine.

 

[BadBurger]

you sound like an government spokesperson.

Or any reasonable doctor, scientist, medical researcher, informed citizen, etc

 

[FunkMiller]

How does the slightly modified quote look to you? Do you already feel guilty?


Also do you have any idea how people who can't get certain vaccinations live? How many of them are there? How many unvaccinated people do you know who have contact with such people? Somehow, many people have the idea in their heads that, for example, seriously ill people (cancer, etc.) cannot be vaccinated. This is absolute nonsense and not true.

It seems to me that you are not aware of simple numbers and the relations, lifestyles and the social environments of these people.

You treat this group of people as if they make up 10% of the population, but fortunately they only make up an extremely small percentage of 0.005% or less. Of this 0.005%, the vast majority of people can't get the vaccine due to allergies. And by the way, these people are not more at risk than other unvaccinated people when getting infected.

Context is important.

The stats you are quoting are so wildly off the mark, I wouldn't even know where to start. You think there are only 0.005% people out there with compromised immune systems or medical issues that prevent them from getting vaccinated? You think only 16000 people in the whole population of the USA are not able to have the covid vaccine?

...actually... you know what. Don't bother. I don't know why I still am. You've convinced yourself of a position based on erroneous, misinterpreted, or just plain fabricated data, and nothing I do or say at this stage is going to convince you otherwise.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[betrayal]

The stats you are quoting are so wildly off the mark, I wouldn't even know where to start. You think there are only 0.005% people out there with compromised immune systems or medical issues that prevent them from getting vaccinated? You think only 16000 people in the whole population of the USA are not able to have the covid vaccine?

...actually... you know what. Don't bother. I don't know why I still am. You've convinced yourself of a position based on erroneous, misinterpreted, or just plain fabricated data, and nothing I do or say at this stage is going to convince you otherwise.

You do realize that virtually all immunocompromised people can and should get vaccinated?

For these people, vaccination may offer less protection and they may need a booster more often. But this is a common problem for these people and has nothing to do with COVID. Even a simple cold virus or other bacteria and pathogens, which are harmless to most people, can be life-threatening for these people.

You obviously don't know anything about the subject at all, which is starting to be scary. Educate yourself for once. It's getting tedious and I'm not getting paid to teach you.

 

[FunkMiller]

You do realize that virtually all immunocompromised people can and should get vaccinated?

For these people, vaccination may offer less protection and they may need a booster more often. But this is a common problem for these people and has nothing to do with COVID.

You obviously don't know anything about the subject at all, which is starting to be scary.

Says the man quoting absolutely idiotic statistics.

 

[betrayal]

Says the man quoting absolutely idiotic statistics.

What is this distorted perception of reality that you show here? Do you need help?

Absolutely everyone here can check that within a few minutes and see that you are completely wrong.

Spoiler

And I know for a fact that you're using google right now and think about how you can get out of this one without looking stupid.

 

[BadBurger]

You do realize that virtually all immunocompromised people can and should get vaccinated?

For these people, vaccination may offer less protection and they may need a booster more often. But this is a common problem for these people and has nothing to do with COVID. Even a simple cold virus or other bacteria and pathogens, which are harmless to most people, can be life-threatening for these people.

You obviously don't know anything about the subject at all, which is starting to be scary. Educate yourself for once. It's getting tedious and I'm not getting paid to teach you.

These vaccines use RNA to provoke cells to create a protein for immune systems to target. They're even less threatening than inert adenovirus vaccines, which themselves are largely harmless. You obviously don't know anything about the subject at all, which is starting to be scary. Educate yourself for once. It's getting tedious and I'm not getting paid to teach you.

 

[betrayal]

These vaccines use RNA to provoke cells to create a protein for immune systems to target. They're even less threatening than inert adenovirus vaccines, which themselves are largely harmless. You obviously don't know anything about the subject at all, which is starting to be scary. Educate yourself for once. It's getting tedious and I'm not getting paid to teach you.

What does this have to do with my post? Is there any context?

I assume in your favor that you have somehow unintentionally misread my post.

 

[BadBurger]

What does this have to do with my post? Is there any context?

I assume in your favor that you have somehow unintentionally misread my post.

You were directly suggesting that these vaccines are dangerous for the immunocompromised. Even though they are less threatening than other vaccines to these people.

They do not use inert viruses. They are nothing like what you warned about. I.E. you were projecting while telling others they didn't know what they were talking about, after revealing you didn't know what you were talking about.

 

[Jsisto]

You were directly suggesting that these vaccines are dangerous for the immunocompromised. Even though they are less threatening than other vaccines to these people.

They do not use inert viruses. They are nothing like what you warned about. I.E. you were projecting while telling others they didn't know what they were talking about, after revealing you didn't know what you were talking about.

He was saying the exact opposite. Clearly it wasn’t your intention to, but it would be helpful if people actually read each other’s thoughts thoroughly before assuming the worst.

 

[betrayal]

You were directly suggesting that these vaccines are dangerous for the immunocompromised. Even though they are less threatening than other vaccines to these people.

They do not use inert viruses. They are nothing like what you warned about. I.E. you were projecting while telling others they didn't know what they were talking about, after revealing you didn't know what you were talking about.

When did I say that?

I certainly didn't and I don't want to imply that at all in any way. Especially people with immunocompromised systems should get vaccinated (not only against COVID). My post was a response to FunkMiller who said that many immunocompromised people cannot get vaccinated.

 

[BadBurger]

He was saying the exact opposite. Clearly it wasn’t your intention to, but it would be helpful if people actually read each other’s thoughts thoroughly before assuming the worst.

I was pointing out how anyone can use a thread of truth in some tangential argument to combine it with another to claim someone else doesn't know what they're talking about to try and make a point. I guess I did a poor job and also forgot the /s

 

[Jsisto]

I was pointing out how anyone can use a thread of truth in some tangential argument to combine it with another to claim someone else doesn't know what they're talking about to try and make a point. I guess I did a poor job and also forgot the /s

O….k. That’s a bit too much of a four dimensional argument for me to wrap my head around, but I guess you’re right in that a /s definitely would’ve helped.

 

[betrayal]

I was pointing out how anyone can use a thread of truth in some tangential argument to combine it with another to claim someone else doesn't know what they're talking about to try and make a point. I guess I did a poor job and also forgot the /s

Whats this nonsense about "thread of truth" and pretending something was meant sarcastic afterwards? Is this crazy talk supposed to disguise your own or FunkMiller his factually unsustainable statements and opinions?


In the end, it is actually quite simple.

Everything I have written can be verified by anyone here within a few minutes using reputable sources (peer reviewed studies, official statistics, ...).

There is no magic or missing context. Just simple and easily digestible facts.

 

[Jsisto]

I’m incredibly concerned about children growing up during this. The social isolation during the period of life where they should be learning social skills/making friends is bound to have some serious long term consequences as that generations grows up…

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I’m incredibly concerned about children growing up during this. The social isolation during the period of life where they should be learning social skills/making friends is bound to have some serious long term consequences as that generations grows up…

They will just spend even more time on their phones. Have you seen people on public transport lately? I say 5 in a row flipping like mad on their Instagram yesterday, attention span for each post was less than 1-2 seconds.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

I’m incredibly concerned about children growing up during this. The social isolation during the period of life where they should be learning social skills/making friends is bound to have some serious long term consequences as that generations grows up…

The young generation do not have social skills anymore. They stare at their phones and post on twitter

 

[FunkMiller]

What is this distorted perception of reality that you show here? Do you need help?

Absolutely everyone here can check that within a few minutes and see that you are completely wrong.

Spoiler

And I know for a fact that you're using google right now and think about how you can get out of this one without looking stupid.

Nice passive aggressive edit to your post there, chief Cool how you pretend you didn't have to go away and have a think about it first

 

[Jsisto]

I’m speaking more about preschool/kindergarten age kids who may have missed out on their entire first school experience. Say what you will about gen z and their tech addiction, but atleast they didn’t miss out on this.

 

[Sakura]

Not really though. The latest CFR still includes some Delta. When that clears, it’s probably less deadly than flu.

I don't know if I agree with that.
The worst recent flu season in the US was 2017-2018.
There were 52k deaths estimated in that flu season. The flu season is typically 4 months long.
For comparison, in the last 4 months , there has been about 170k covid deaths in the US. I don't really see how "covid now" can only be 0.05% more deadly than the flu as that chart suggests.
And we don't really actually test for influenza (much). So what "cases" are being referenced in this CFR for the flu? Numbers for the flu are just guesstimates.
Furthermore, the 0.1% rate for the flu is derived from the estimated number of symptomatic illnesses. When we estimate covid's fatality rate, we also include all the asymptomatic illnesses.

I don't think Omicron is a big deal, and I agree that it is more mild, but I just think that is a very bad chart.
I mean, why the hell is the covid now bar like 5 times bigger than the flu, when the number is only 1.5 times bigger?

 

[Chittagong]

I don't know if I agree with that.
The worst recent flu season in the US was 2017-2018.
There were 52k deaths estimated in that flu season. The flu season is typically 4 months long.
For comparison, in the last 4 months , there has been about 170k covid deaths in the US. I don't really see how "covid now" can only be 0.05% more deadly than the flu as that chart suggests.
And we don't really actually test for influenza (much). So what "cases" are being referenced in this CFR for the flu? Numbers for the flu are just guesstimates.
Furthermore, the 0.1% rate for the flu is derived from the estimated number of symptomatic illnesses. When we estimate covid's fatality rate, we also include all the asymptomatic illnesses.

I don't think Omicron is a big deal, and I agree that it is more mild, but I just think that is a very bad chart.
I mean, why the hell is the covid now bar like 5 times bigger than the flu, when the number is only 1.5 times bigger?

I think most of the difference is due to two factors

1 - This is an UK graph, where the “covid now” is mostly omicron

2 - Omicron is only getting started in USA, so that 170K figure would be comparable to the “covid before” bar. With a similar reduction (3% -> 0.1%) you would only see around 9K deaths in 4 months, which is well below the bad flu season you mention.

Agreed on the fact that testing skews the CFR a lot as we don’t really test for flu.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I’m speaking more about preschool/kindergarten age kids who may have missed out on their entire first school experience. Say what you will about gen z and their tech addiction, but atleast they didn’t miss out on this.

The oddest thing about lockdowns is that kids seem the least affected by covid. It's been like that from day one. And that's even with them not even getting the vax until governments said it was ok for let's say kids 12 or younger to get it. Yet they still are extremely resistant to covid effects.

Yet schools are closed down. How does that make sense? There is no way anyone can say online learning is better than in-class learning. And having kids at home all day not only disturbs parents working from home, but it'll require many to force themselves to WFH.

I'm not even sure what parents do if they got really young kids who are forced to do online learning at home, but the parents have jobs that are required on-site.

 

[arkhamguy123]

2 - Omicron is only getting started in USA, so that 170K figure would be comparable to the “covid before” bar. With a similar reduction (3% -> 0.1%) you would only see around 6K deaths in 4 months, which is well below the bad flu season you mention.

Nah. Experts have this peaking as early as late next week and the most pessimistic projections have it dying off late this month. South Africa, NYC, and London are already seeing peaks and declines.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I got boostered Dec 11th, went to a NYE party, and everyone got covid off of one infected person.

Omnicron is so contagious.

Luckily my only symptom was slight fatigue for 6-12 hours on Thurday 1/6, but thankfully I got tested due to that. I feel 100% but still tested positive yesterday (Testing is a bitch to get, but I managed). My girlfriend has just had a slight headache and fatigue for the last couple of days, nothing that stops her from doing anything. Good thing I can gym from home.

 

[sinnergy]

If we go by SA numbers for Cron , USA with a million infections could have between 1000 - 2000 deaths of those million. But probably even lower , 500? If we take a million and don’t take Delta into account .. and age groups infected so those almost million day numbers will add up .. it’s a lot more than 9/11 for example .

 

[Jsisto]

I got boostered Dec 11th, went to a NYE party, and everyone got covid off of one infected person.

Omnicron is so contagious.

Luckily my only symptom was slight fatigue for 6-12 hours on Thurday 1/6, but thankfully I got tested due to that. I feel 100% but still tested positive yesterday (Testing is a bitch to get, but I managed). My girlfriend has just had a slight headache and fatigue for the last couple of days, nothing that stops her from doing anything. Good thing I can gym from home.

Glad you're doing well. That's seems to be the case with everyone I know, myself included, who's gotten what one can assume at this point to be omicron. If Delta fizzles out like some are predicting, it's incredibly encouraging!

 

[sinnergy]

Nah. Experts have this peaking as early as late next week and the most pessimistic projections have it dying off late this month. South Africa, NYC, and London are already seeing peaks and declines.

In city settings .. it will circulate in countries also in the less populated areas ..

Glad you're doing well. That's seems to be the case with everyone I know, myself included, who's gotten what one can assume at this point to be omicron. If Delta fizzles out like some are predicting, it's incredibly encouraging!

and then we get a omicron booster in June as after thought .. but why need it ? And than we get megacron .. it’s a cat and mouse game , endless loop of shite .

 

[Belgorim]

The oddest thing about lockdowns is that kids seem the least affected by covid. It's been like that from day one. And that's even with them not even getting the vax until governments said it was ok for let's say kids 12 or younger to get it. Yet they still are extremely resistant to covid effects.

Yet schools are closed down. How does that make sense? There is no way anyone can say online learning is better than in-class learning. And having kids at home all day not only disturbs parents working from home, but it'll require many to force themselves to WFH.

I'm not even sure what parents do if they got really young kids who are forced to do online learning at home, but the parents have jobs that are required on-site.

Last time school and covid was discussed here (unless I missed another go at it) I think it turned out schools have been mostly open everywhere?

 

[The Pleasure]

You can convert it to a gif.

That's not covid. That's pleasing the wife.

 

[p_xavier]

That's not covid. That's pleasing the wife.

That's why you use "cheat" codes.

 

[The Pleasure]

That's why you use "cheat" codes.

You gotta watch out. That's when she pulls out the knife and ypu have an order of protection against you. There are many codes that shouldn't be used.

 

[p_xavier]

You gotta watch out. That's when she pulls out the knife and ypu have an order of protection against you. There are many codes that shouldn't be used.

No worries, I play for the other team since I found that game too difficult anyways.

 

[The Pleasure]

No worries, I play for the other team since I found that game too difficult anyways.

That's not a cheat code. That's another game.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

And having kids at home all day not only disturbs parents working from home, but it'll require many to force themselves to WFH.

This so much. It makes me furious when people say to lock schools - you either have no kids or your kids are adults, or your wife doesn’t work so she can take care of them. You want me to work and take care of the economy, you take care of my kids.

 

[FunkMiller]

This so much. It makes me furious when people say to lock schools - you either have no kids or your kids are adults, or your wife doesn’t work so she can take care of them. You want me to work and take care of the economy, you take care of my kids.

This pandemic has really highlighted how little so many people care about the situation others might find themselves in. The attitude towards the elderly and children has been particularly bad. It’s like loads of us have completely lost the ability to empathise with someone with a different life from our own. Obviously, the anti-vaxxers are at the bottom of this pit, buts it’s disconcerting how many only think of their own particular issues.

 

[ntropy]

found a clip of Djokovic's motorcade

 

[sinnergy]

This so much. It makes me furious when people say to lock schools - you either have no kids or your kids are adults, or your wife doesn’t work so she can take care of them. You want me to work and take care of the economy, you take care of my kids.

We all have it so hard Bububu ,we had our kids home , managed to work , if a bit less concentrated, but guess what , later our kids need to make money , work , rule the country or whatever they will do .. it’s long term planning . Is it or was it hard , yes it was, but it could have been worse , like being in war and scared of being killed .. we teached them stuff .. in the end most are naggers , and to much about having it all perfectly.. a nice warm bed , without effort.

Everyone is entitled to grow old, you earned that right so new generations can live .

So in the end we all get old, and maybe could catch a new virus that kills, we all would like that people would care for us .

In the end money is just money , it’s replaceable, in matter of fact , economies always return, a life lost is not .

It can be any of us in the distant future.

My English WW2 veteran grandfather would be ashamed for a lot of todays world population, those generations made sacrifices, that are the foundation of the future we now life.

 

[Chaplain]

On this week’s show, Cindy Yu, The Spectator’s broadcast editor, speaks to Kate Andrews, The Spectator’s economics editor, about why it’s time to rip up vaccine passports. Kirsty Innes, from the Tony Blair Institute, says they could be a force for good.

edited

 

[daveonezero]

edited

Love it. Belief and feelings over the “experts” advice now is ok. Who’d a thunk it.

The CDC is now spreading the disinformation of last year.

Over the last 2 years these people have trashed anyone with an opinion differing from the God of Science.

Now the science says something they don’t like and they double down or outright ignore the fact they have destroyed lives over anyone who questions the narrative.

 

[caffeware]

 

[Rentahamster]

If vaccines protected well against spreading infection, then that would be a different issue. But that is not currently the case and even if it were, masks and tests are good alternatives.

No no no. This is a tired narrative that is dangerous.

The vaccines already protect well against spreading infection. Less now due to the variants, but still well enough.

Even if it didn't do squat against protecting yourself from infection or reduce your chances at infecting others, it's still not a different issue because they would still protect over 90% against serious illness and death. That is more than enough reason for anyone who can do math why it's a good idea and that the benefits heavily outweigh the risks.

Masks and tests are supplements not alternatives. All pharmaceutical and non-pharmaceutical interventions have varied levels of effectiveness and none of them are 100%, which is why we need to employ multiple countermeasures at the same time to maximize our chances for success.

The buffs stack. Don't settle for just one.

 

[daveonezero]

No no no. This is a tired narrative that is dangerous.

The vaccines already protect well against spreading infection. Less now due to the variants, but still well enough.

Even if it didn't do squat against protecting yourself from infection or reduce your chances at infecting others, it's still not a different issue because they would still protect over 90% against serious illness and death. That is more than enough reason for anyone who can do math why it's a good idea and that the benefits heavily outweigh the risks.

Masks and tests are supplements not alternatives. All pharmaceutical and non-pharmaceutical interventions have varied levels of effectiveness and none of them are 100%, which is why we need to employ multiple countermeasures at the same time to maximize our chances for success.

The buffs stack. Don't settle for just one.

It doesn’t matter. 100% safe and effective doesn’t even make it ok to mandate others do what you want.

 

[caffeware]

Two doses of the vaccine offers very limited protection, if any. 3 doses with a booster offer reasonable protection against hospitalization and deaths. Less protection against infection.