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ManaByte
Gold Member
Megacron
Jsisto
Member
It isn’t. If you’re the people that do have that adverse effects and die is it misinformation still? Because those people exist. I certainly am not going to disagree with you that the vast majority of people should be getting vaccinated, I did, but it’s not without risk.
The word has been so thoroughly corrupted and misused by both sides to describe things that are….debatable, or not politically convenient. The word is meaningless. The lab leak theory used to be misinformation, now it’s a possibility. Joe Rogan telling people to take horse dewormer isn’t misinformation, it literally never happened. We can disagree on the likelihood of a specific outcome, but to call things like that misinformation does more harm than good. Today something could be misinformation, tomorrow it could be possible, a month from now it could be gospel. It’s a politically toxic term that’s constantly abused and I’m sick of it.
Its another term that’s been coopted by the media specifically to profit off of diving us.
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QSD
Member
It's not a problem of information or misinformation, it's a problem of trust. If people trusted the information the government publishes, they would get vaccinated. The problem is they don't. What
Jsisto
is alluding to IMHO is that we need to be talking more about why people get in such an oppositional, mistrustful frame of mind re: the government, and less about the information they consume. The problem already arises before they read that misinformation, the problem is they are primed not to listen to the government but rather seek out alternate sources. Even if you could magically transcribe the current load of misinformation into correct information, the antivaxxers would just reject that crock and find new sources of information that tell them the government is lying to them and the man is out to get them, because that's what they already believe.
Jsisto
Member
That’s definitely part of it. And I agree with most of what people are saying on the merits. I just feel pretty strongly that we should be incredibly cautious with allowing and encouraging our government and institutions to so willingly throw that word around. It’s incredibly fucking dystopian, especially when we know damn well they’ve lied and been wrong in the past. They literally created misinformation to go to war with Iraq. Anyway, the last thing I want to do is get political…if I’m going too far mods please let me know, don’t want to rock the boat.It's not a problem of information or misinformation, it's a problem of trust. If people trusted the information the government publishes, they would get vaccinated. The problem is they don't. What
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Jsisto
Member
Mostly seems to be fear of myocarditis, which is a rare but potentially dangerous inflammation of the heart. Again, it’s very rare, and it’s ALSO a side effect of COVID itself, but it’s hard to find out if there’s any other reasons, because big tech is actively censoring just about any discussion of negative side effects as misinformation. Love living in a free country.
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FunkMiller
Banned
Jsisto
Member
I’m not saying there’s anything else to discuss, but you’re in denial if you don’t think that’s happening. Maybe it’s for the best, i can see the reasoning for it given what’s at stake, but they’re literally doing that.
This is exactly the problem with discourse, theres no nuance. I am incredibly pro vax. I got it right away, I encouraged my family and everyone I know to get it. I shopped for my parents and sometimes even my brother for over a year and delivered their groceries so they wouldn’t have to go out. I wore my mask, did everything right, and am proud of that. You say one thing that goes against the accepted narrative and youre summed up in a fricking gif. I’m so exhausted by this. Dont know why I bother.
This is exactly the problem with discourse, theres no nuance. I am incredibly pro vax. I got it right away, I encouraged my family and everyone I know to get it. I shopped for my parents and sometimes even my brother for over a year and delivered their groceries so they wouldn’t have to go out. I wore my mask, did everything right, and am proud of that. You say one thing that goes against the accepted narrative and youre summed up in a fricking gif. I’m so exhausted by this. Dont know why I bother.
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Sleepwalker
Member
Not here. Flip flopping lockdown #693756. The best switcheroo was when things opened up and then they got shut down again 2 weeks later in I think November 2020.
Here's when Ontario's current lockdown period is expected to end
When will Ontario's latest lockdown end? It's a question many are asking as the province once again deals with harsher restrictions amid rising cases…www.blogto.com
Left Ontario last year because I couldn't be bothered anymore.
I'm fully vaccinated and wear a mask, take precautions and all that but the continuos lockdowns got old preeetty fucking fast for me so I dipped.
prinz_valium
Member
The best and safest option is always to stay healthy and not get infected compared to taking any medicine or doing any medical procedure.
I took IBU once in my life. Will never get people who pop those pills on a weekly basis.
But sure generally vaccine benefits heavily outweigh the risks. Just not when it comes to covid (or flu shots) on some individual basis.
FunkMiller
Banned
People who are immunocompromised. HIV patients, cancer patients, transplant patients. Folks who suffered severe anaphylaxis after the first dose.
They are why I despise anti-vaxxers. Immunocompromised people (of which there are many) and allergic people (not that many) can’t have the vax. They rely on others to have it, to help protect them. The fact so many selfish assholes won’t just do it to help those less fortunate than themselves sickens me.
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FunkMiller
Banned
Absolutely. You really should stop.
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D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
Acute YouTube exposure
ManaByte
Gold Member
Facebook comment section.
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
Yea, even if health care workers believe that the vaccine is effective and safe, we know that everything related to COVID has become intertwined with politics and economics.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
The documented and well established known side effects are available for anyone to see.
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
you need to realize that there are responsible venues to express these concerns and that there are a lot of good people doing that (not the people of facebook). It's not by chance that we have an incredibly safe and effective vaccine.
Jsisto
Member
I don’t disagree with any of that. Just to again clarify, I myself am vaccinated, and they’re not concerns I personally have myself. But in my life experience, listening to the concerns of people gives you much more latitude to change their minds or meet them halfway than calling them names, so I have a lot of issues with the way people have chosen to handle this issue. But I can see how some of the things I mentioned could be considered political, so ill do my best to refrain from that in the future. But just for the record I don’t mess with Facebook, Twitter, any of it. God damn cesspool.
Hari Seldon
Member
We shouldn't even call these shots vaccines. They are not vaccines, they are temporary immune system boosts that don't prevent catching shit.
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
only very few vaccines provide sterilizing immunity, unfortunately
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Tschumi
Member
What's a flu shot called?
Covid's most widely distributed vaccines were designed for a version of the virus that keeps getting mutated away from, so we're basically having to update every x months for new mutations, sounds like the annual flu shot...
Covid shot. Nice ring to it.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
My personal outlook is that this is basically a new much deadlier Flu. We will need yearly vaccines/boosters and we will see periodic variants that are better or worse than the previous iterations.
It sucks, but thems the breaks.
Call it the "Ivermectin Based Super Booster Covid Shot" - Sponsored by Joe Rogan
Apparently a shitload of people will line up for it based on the last 7 months.
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Tschumi
Member
Right?
Vaccine efficacy, effectiveness and protection
They need 50% efficacy or above, that's called 'high eficacy', people wanting 100% are naive
Imp the Dimp
Member
No you can't conclude that. There are approximately 20.000 individuals per group. 0.1% of all those in the vaccine group died. The margin of error ±0.043%, so if we were to draw a random sample N times, the probability of obtaining a result (CI 0.06%-0.14%) at least as extreme as the one we got is 95%. Now is it significantly different from the placebo group? Again, approximately 20.000 individuals, 15 deaths (0.07%). The the margin of error is ±0.036, so the CI is 0.03%-0.11%. Since the confidence intervals of both groups clearly overlap, we cannot assume a significantly statistical difference.This is the 6 months placedo controlled Pfizer study about vaccines efficiency and side effects. Here the (well hidden) link with the supplementary material tab where they give all the details about cause of deaths in both groups.
Six Month Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 Vaccine
Background BNT162b2 is a lipid nanoparticle-formulated, nucleoside-modified RNA vaccine encoding a prefusion-stabilized, membrane-anchored SARS-CoV-2 full-length spike protein. BNT162b2 is highly efficacious against COVID-19 and is currently authorized for emergency use or conditional approval...www.medrxiv.org
Here is as summary of the most interesting parts about that study: Deaths comparison in both groups:
We can say based on their own double study that their vaccine does indeed reduce probability of getting Covid, like experts say on the TV, but unfortunately increases probability of dying.
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Chittagong
Gold Member
Not really though. The latest CFR still includes some Delta. When that clears, it’s probably less deadly than flu.
betrayal
Banned
And if you are against other opinions, no matter how stupid they are, then you are an intolerant and hateful person, right?
If someone is afraid of very unlikely side effects (mostly cardiovascular), then it is their right to take a wait-and-see approach, no matter how small the chance for such side effects.
If vaccines protected well against spreading infection, then that would be a different issue. But that is not currently the case and even if it were, masks and tests are good alternatives.
Many have a really hard time decoupling things like personal reasons and choice from the COVID issue. If we were to condemn and exclude someone every time just because they are (probably) wrong and thus have a different opinion, then this forum would have 5 active users. And yes, even if it sounds cliché, history does not have to repeat itself in terms of intolerance, anger and hatred. If you hate people and want to silence them because of unreasonable opinions or their stupidity, then it is not these people but yourself who is the problem in this society.
Either way, I can only recommend people to consider vaccination, because it gives you protection without having any downside for 99.9998% of people. I personally know many people who got the virus. About 90% of them were vaccinated and none had to go to a hospital. The remaining 10% were unvaccinated and three of them actually were hospitalized. Fortunately nobody died. It may be just a personal anecdote, but it pretty much matches the general facts.
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betrayal
Banned
Not really though. The latest CFR still includes some Delta. When that clears, it’s probably less deadly than flu.
It's not quite that simple.
The CFR of influenza can sometimes differ from year to year. In Germany, the CFR of influenza was 0.5% in 2017/2018 and 0.4% for 2018/2019. Of course, this does not necessarily make influenza more dangerous because other factors such as R0 value etc. also play an important role.
Also, virtually worldwide many deaths will not distinguish whether someone died with or from COVID.
There is also a difference between CFR and IFR, which is significantly lower (for both influenza and COVID), resulting in a different significance in terms of preventive measures.
Fools idol
Banned
Have my 3rd booster on saturday, thankffully. Had to wait for the invite from my GP as we live far from any of the walk in places.
Fools idol
Banned
indeed, but they do however stop you from getting life threateningly sick.
The ratio of people my wife see's in her ICU ward are like 9/10 unvaccinated people. Age seems indiscriminate as wel.
funkygunther
Banned
Novak Djokovic Reported Arrested After Visa Cancellation Has Been Overturned
Novak Djokovic had his visa cancellation overturned on Monday allowing him to play in the Australian Open but was arrested soon after
this guy must feel like one of his tennis balls
dodgy reporting
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Imp the Dimp
Member
My understanding is that it's still up for debate whether a COVID infection or a Pfizer shot are more likely to cause Myocarditis in men under 40, but even if we grant that a vaccine carries a similar risk of causing myocarditis, wouldn't you have to take all other possible post-covid symptoms like fatigue, shortness of breath, depression into account when risk assessing? Fatigue in particular can be debilitating depending on its severity.
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betrayal
Banned
I don't think it's up for debate yet whether mRNA vaccines can cause myocarditis. There is now a clear evidence-based consensus that this is the case (https://www.reuters.com/business/he...t-inflammation-than-pfizers-study-2021-12-17/ etc). What is currently up for debate is not "if" but "how often".
Interestingly, there are also the clinical trials for a vaccine made by Novavax, a protein-based vaccine. The myocarditis cases expected to be caused by vaccination in this case were...you may have already guessed it...zero. There were also no thrombosis cases (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116185?query=main_nav_lg).
However, there are still many unanswered questions about post covid symptoms. It may certainly be a reason why vaccination can make sense, even if one is still young and healthy. But it is also important to understand that, for example, an influenza infection (and many other viral infections as well) can have equally long-lasting consequences. The keyword here is "post viral syndrome" (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326619 and many more).
The very sad thing is that all this is objective and supported by facts. Nevertheless, 90% of the people worldwide and 85% of the people in this forum do not care, because people are more interested in their own entrenched opinion. Even in this thread, for most it's just about having that glorious "I'm right" feeling at the end, even if you have to "skip" over a lot of things and posts to get there. It is a reflection of our current society.
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BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
1. It's too experimental and rushed, I'll wait until it's approved
2. It has been approved, but how do we know it's really safe? I'll wait for more to get it
3. Over four billion worldwide have received the vaccines, starting almost a year ago, with barely anyone having adverse side effects? Well then I will <MOVE GOALPOSTS AGAIN>
Surely you can see why so many people have run out of patience and now correctly name people who do this as anti-vaxx, right? Especially considering there is a 99.99999% chance everyone doing this has already received a litany of vaccines in their lifetime?
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betrayal
Banned
It is not about the small percentage of "traditional" anti-vaxxers who reject all vaccinations. These are idiots. Period. It is not about them. It is about the people who are concerned not only with the negligible risks, but also with wanting to act in a self-determined manner. That's called principles. They don't always have to make sense to others, but principles and values in themselves are important as long as they don't consciously endanger others.
I know that this message doesn't resonate with you because you can't understand it. But that is also why people like you were not involved in the formation of today's free society.
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
Ahh, OK super patriot founding father
I just cringed so hard that the light surrounding me bent like a lens, pulling my cringe both backwards and forwards through time and circumstance, my every counterpart in the multiverse cringing in unison even though they did not understand why
betrayal
Banned
Is that all you have to say about it? Some pointless talk of "founding fathers" and other context-free garbage?
Wow.
You should grow up and learn to distinguish between a statement and the people who make it. But maybe you're just too young to understand.
How much do you think your statements resonate with me when I am in favor of vaccination and many of the other policies as well?
Your reaction to someone who shares your opinion, but also understands certain other views, is revealing and sickening.
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FunkMiller
Banned
But the principal of not taking the covid vaccine does consciously endanger others.
What kind of value is “I’m not taking this vaccine that will definitely help those less fortunate than myself”?
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
This is a pretty interesting article , its obviously only anecdotal evidence due to the small size of the study but it might explain why some people seem to have such elevated levels of resistance to Covid compared to their peers.
Its something that I've seen remarked upon in various pieces, some people since the very start have not contracted any variant of Covid despite everyone else in their household falling sick.
Its something that I've seen remarked upon in various pieces, some people since the very start have not contracted any variant of Covid despite everyone else in their household falling sick.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
There's a big difference between covid shots and doing something that totally only affects that person's decision (like it's wintertime and not turning off and draining outside pipes).
If someone is stubborn and doesn't want to take care of the pipes and it screws up, only they feel the consequence. Nobody gives a shit if a homeowner has pipes burst because they are too lazy to spend 5 minutes doing it.
For covid it's different, governments and companies adjust their mask mandates, testing, travel protocols, vax checks and max capacities based on covid counts. The more people getting nailed, the more it makes them do lockdown policies. For example, Ontario is in lockdown mode again for a bit as covid cases skyrocketed the past month when it was going pretty good for months when daily covid counts dropped to lows.
The more people taking the vax, the fewer people get hit with adverse affects from covid, therefore covid counts drop and people getting critically ill drop too.
If anyone out there wants their freedom (like everyone does), doesn't want to take the vax, and as you say doesn't want to endanger others, then stay home and dont spread covid to others. Staying home also will help reduce getting it too.
However, the typical anti-vaxxer is more of a "I wanna do do what I want where I want", which means walking around town and keeping the covid count cycle going on and being higher than it should be if everyone did their part and got vaxxed. At least at that point, the general public has done what it can as a major first attempt.
Think if it like driving a car. The proper path is learn to drive, earn a driver's license through the city, and then get car insurance with your car. Most people do that. But then some people dont because they think they can wing it and drive assuming they'll never get in a car crash with someone and they'll never get pulled over by a cop.
Just man up and follow directions.
It's an amazing situation. Everything else related to medicine and crap you buy at the drug store, anti-vaxxers seem ok with it and never put up a fight in life. covid comes around the past 2 years, people are getting sick and dropping like flies (especially old people), government are known to adjust lockdown policies on covid cases, and somehow covid vax is this once in a lifetime medical issue that is handpicked as worth fighting against.
Antivaxxer: Hey doc I got some issues
Doctor: Ok, lemme check you out. Seems like a case of high protein AHND v2 in your blood. Here's a prescription for your issue. I'm suggesting Merck fuckwad hemotosis-bumfuck extra oily ointment 40 mg.
Antivaxxer: Thanks doc
Antivaxxer: Hi pharmacist, my doctor prescribed for me a tube of bumfuck ointment in the 40 mg range
Pharmacist: Ok, here ya go. But have you ever used this before? Before you leave, I'd like to give you some pointers on application, frequency and side effects of use
Antivaxxer: Uhhh... thats ok, I got to go. Thanks!
Government: covid is here and there's free vax for all. Please sign up. Let's get covid cases down so we can open up lock downs
Antivaxxer: Why the hell would I trust Pfizer and Moderna vax? Seems like untrustworthy shit!
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betrayal
Banned
The people who unfortunately cannot protect themselves because they cannot get the vaccination, for these people vaccinated people are similarly "dangerous" as unvaccinated people.
Also being unvaccinated does not mean being uneducated. There a probably many unvaccinated people out there who are far more cautious than vaccinated people when being in contact with more vulnerable people.
FunkMiller
Banned
Are you actually still trying to maintain that vaccinated people can spread covid as easily as unvaccinated?
How is anyone meant to have an adult conversation with you, when you keep saying the same old lies over and over?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
There's so much more room to move by the general public getting vaxxed. If you look at the typical big country in this link, they're only at about ~70% fully vaxxed and around 75% partially vaxxed. So about 1 in 4 still unvaxxed in NA and Europe. Other websites show similar kinds of stats.
ourworldindata.org
Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations
Explore data on COVID-19 vaccinations across the world.
ourworldindata.org
betrayal
Banned
Great post and I agree with almost all of it contents.
If more people would express their opinion in a way like you did with this post and less with reactions like "fuck you fucking conspiracy redneck", then some people would probably reconsider their decisions.
But nethertheless there are many unvaccinated people, who also take enormous care for others for exactly this reason (being unvaccinated). Even here the world is not always black or white.
And to make it clear what my personal position is: I think a mandatory vaccination for people 60+ or people with pre-conditions would fix almost all of the problems we have right now.
There's so much more room to move by the general public getting vaxxed. If you look at the typical big country in this link, they're only at about ~70% fully vaxxed and around 75% partially vaxxed. So about 1 in 4 still unvaxxed in NA and Europe. Other websites show similar kinds of stats.
Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations
Explore data on COVID-19 vaccinations across the world.
You must take into account that the ~70% are for the whole population and not only people for which the vaccine is approved. A not exactly small percentage can therefore not get vaccinated at all right now.
Where did I say this?
Of course vaccination decreases the risk for spreading the virus. At least for most people for a few months.
Do you think a person at risk cares if a person vaccinated five months ago is only 50-95% contagious and that the personat risk is therefor less careful? And do you also think that unvaccinated people generally don't give a shit whether they endanger others or not? Is it even possible that they might even be more careful than vaccinated people?