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[funkygunther]

I’ve been away from this thread for a long time. I figured I’d come back just to make a couple of comments.

People are tired of all the restrictions and mandates because that shit didn’t work like we were led to believe they would. We were told masks and vaccines would flatten the curve. Told the vaccine specifically would stop you from being infected or at least protect from symptomatic disease and more importantly transmission. Told masks, even cloth ones, were our best tool other than vaccines to control the spread. Turns out a lot of stuff we were told didn’t do what they told us it was going to do. The government asked us to put a lot of faith in them and they failed. We took their shots and wore their masks and many kept their kids home from school, and what do we have to show for all that? The largest spike of covid since the pandemic began. And the places that didn’t have the mandates or follow the public health proclamations really didn’t do that much worse.

The public health establishment has lost a ton of credibility. All you have to do is look at the public opinion polls of the people that represent it. It turns out you can’t tell people your vaccine is 95% effective at preventing disease and then 6 months after 60% of the adult population gets the shots, they all get covid anyway without people losing faith. You can say the virus mutates and science is complicated. You’d be correct. That’s why you don’t make definitive claims about a vaccine you only tested for less than a year. Because it turns out there’s a lot you can’t account for and when the things you tell people turn out to be wrong even for reasons outside your control, it is hard to get people to trust you anymore.

Now we have a crisis of confidence in leadership. That’s not a good place to be in a democracy. It makes of society weak. We need to be able to believe that the people in charge are at the very least competent. Preferably honest as well. Right now a lot of the society believes neither. Turns out our governments couldn’t stop the virus. And the vaccines, while providing some value, didn’t do what they promised. And our kids should’ve been in school. And people sacrificed a lot for little in return. And until the people in charge take responsibility for that, many many people are not going to trust them any more.

nope, since Omicron arrived the UK government has been as straight-forward and prepared as they ever have been with the general public and as the infectious variant spread and spiked, the symptoms were figured to be milder, the vaccines were preventing hospitalisations and deaths (something that had been known about them since the Delta variant), and any public policy evolved to match what was known at the time

if you hadn't kept up with the evolution of the virus then that's on you, and clearly you're speaking for yourself only here despite grand claims to "society" or whatever you think bolsters your opinion

 

[Kraz]

They didn’t work as promised and they have fractured your society. I’d say the social consequences of those measures outweigh and outlast whatever marginal difference they made in terms of covid.

What promise?

They worked as intended and reduced Covid. You've also got the blame wrong, it's not the mandates causing division.

 

[DeepBreath87]

nope, since Omicron arrived the UK government has been as straight-forward and prepared as they ever have been with the general public and as the infectious variant spread and spiked, the symptoms were figured to be milder, the vaccines were preventing hospitalisations and deaths (something that had been known about them since the Delta variant), and any public policy evolved to match what was known at the time

if you hadn't kept up with the evolution of the virus then that's on you, and clearly you're speaking for yourself only here despite grand claims to "society" or whatever you think bolsters your opinion

Depends where you live, doesn’t it? Also, the UK has been rather light on restrictions for some time. I’d suggest you take a look at places that haven’t been so fortunate.

What promise?

They worked as intended and reduced Covid. You've also got the blame wrong, it's not the mandates causing division.

How quickly you forget. Remember when vaccinated people didn’t get the virus? Or when they didn’t transmit the virus? A lot of people took those claims to heart. Turns out that wasn’t true about six months later. They didn’t mention that in the brochure. People don’t like when they take medicine based on claims that turn out to be false.

You’ll of course argue, “so what, the vaccines helped them when they inevitably got sick”. But that isn’t what they were told. It’s not why they accepted showing their vax status to eat at a restaurant. They did that because they were promised that if everyone was vaccinated, they were not going to catch covid at that restaurant. When you break people’s trust, they tend to stop trusting you.

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

So which is it?

1. Gov and health ministers truly acting in accordance with covid counts and deaths?

2. Looking for votes as people getting pissy at covid lockdown policies?

Amazing how Ontario rode the roller coaster of opening up and lockdowns. Now it's suddenly floodgates open. Ontario still has about 3000 daily covid counts which is sky high as at the beginning of covid tracking, a 2,000 daily count was like the apocalypse of lockdowns.

Toronto, Canada and Global Breaking News – CP24

Most recent News News business news stories and video from CP24

www.cp24.com

https://www.publichealthontario.ca/en/data-and-analysis/infectious-disease/covid-19-data-surveillance/covid-19-data-tool?tab=summary

Election is in June bruh, gotta make it seem like everything is good and his decisions haven't resulted in disaster multiple times throughout this whole thing. You know damnw ell this is what's happening. He started fuckin around earlier in the year when he cut pcr availability, told schools to stop reporting positive cases until they have 30% (!) of the building testing positive, when daily new positive cases stopped being reported properly etc etc.

It's obvious what this scumbag is doing.

 

[Kraz]

Depends where you live, doesn’t it? Also, the UK has been rather light on restrictions for some time. I’d suggest you take a look at places that haven’t been so fortunate.


How quickly you forget. Remember when vaccinated people didn’t get the virus? Or when they didn’t transmit the virus? A lot of people took those claims to heart. Turns out that wasn’t true about six months later. They didn’t mention that in the brochure. People don’t like when they take medicine based on claims that turn out to be false.

You’ll of course argue, “so what, the vaccines helped them when they inevitably got sick”. But that isn’t what they were told. It’s not why they accepted showing their vax status to eat at a restaurant. They did that because they were promised that if everyone was vaccinated, they were not going to catch covid at that restaurant. When you break people’s trust, they tend to stop trusting you.

No one here said vaccinated people didn't get the virus and most wouldn't believe it then wonder why the gov would say that.
It was always known only to mitigate helping slow the spread during waves.

 

[funkygunther]

Depends where you live, doesn’t it? Also, the UK has been rather light on restrictions for some time. I’d suggest you take a look at places that haven’t been so fortunate.

it does depend where you live, that's why I explicitly said you're speaking for yourself but unfortunately you (or your mythical they) still show a lack of understanding of a couple of situations:

Remember when vaccinated people didn’t get the virus? Or when they didn’t transmit the virus? A lot of people took those claims to heart. Turns out that wasn’t true about six months later. You’ll of course argue, “so what, the vaccines helped them when they inevitably got sick”. But that isn’t what they were told.

that was true for the variant the vaccines targeted, when the virus mutated (and especially Delta) the ability for the vaccine to curb spread as well slowly diminished...again I'm not sure if it was that they weren't told, or that they just didn't listen...maybe you could ask them?

It’s not why they accepted showing their vax status to eat at a restaurant. They did that because they were promised that if everyone was vaccinated they were not going to catch covid at that restaurant

then they misunderstood the point of vaccine passports, because they were there to prevent unvaccinated people giving the virus to more unvaccinated people...they were there to help people who weren't helping themselves by getting vaccinated

 

[DeepBreath87]

it does depend where you live, that's why I explicitly said you're speaking for yourself but unfortunately you (or your mythical they) still show a lack of understanding of a couple of situations:


that was true for the variant the vaccines targeted, when the virus mutated (and especially Delta) the ability for the vaccine to curb spread as well slowly diminished...again I'm not sure if it was that they weren't told, or that they just didn't listen...maybe you could ask them?


then they misunderstood the point of vaccine passports, because they were there to prevent unvaccinated people giving the virus to more unvaccinated people...they were there to help people who weren't helping themselves by getting vaccinated

You’re free to have your revisionist history then. But of course you’re aware that all those things were not mentioned at the outset. There were a lot of claims made with an undue amount of assurance that turned out to be false just six months later. The fact you aren’t able to acknowledge that and instead insist on trying desperately to revise the past speaks to your inability to deal with your own cognitive dissonance.

No one here said vaccinated people didn't get the virus and most wouldn't believe it then wonder why the gov would say that.
It was always known only to mitigate helping slow the spread during waves.

Really? You just experienced your largest spike in disease and you still think the vaccinated mitigated spread? Listen to yourself.

 

[funkygunther]

You’re free to have your revisionist history then. But of course you’re aware that all those things were not mentioned at the outset. There were a lot of claims made with an undue amount of assurance that turned out to be false just six months later. The fact you aren’t able to acknowledge that and instead insist on trying desperately to revise the past speaks to your inability to deal with your own cognitive dissonance.

it's not revisionist because I kept up with the evolution of both the virus and the public messaging, you keep saying "six months later" but you never paid attention during those six months

 

[Kraz]

You’re free to have your revisionist history then. But of course you’re aware that all those things were not mentioned at the outset. There were a lot of claims made with an undue amount of assurance that turned out to be false just six months later. The fact you aren’t able to acknowledge that and instead insist on trying desperately to revise the past speaks to your inability to deal with your own cognitive dissonance.

Really? You just experienced your largest spike in disease and you still think the vaccinated mitigated spread? Listen to yourself.

The desparation is coming from you. You're the one speaking out their ass about an area you have no clue about. You're just spouting your bias and ignorance.

Spread isn't the only metric. Hospitalizations are higher with unvaccinated.

 

[DeepBreath87]

The desparation is coming from you. You're the one speaking out their ass about an area you have no clue about. You're just spouting your bias and ignorance.

Spread isn't the only metric. Hospitalizations are higher with unvaccinated.

Spread is the metric you mentioned, remember? I responded to what you said. I’ve never disputed that the vaccines have proven some utility. I’ve pointed out that they were not nearly as effective at mitigating spread of the diseases as the public was told when they got the shots. Which has damaged trust in public health establishments.

it's not revisionist because I kept up with the evolution of both the virus and the public messaging, you keep saying "six months later" but you never paid attention during those six months

The public didn’t roll up their sleeves under the impression they would all get covid six months later.

 

[Kraz]

Spread is the metric you mentioned, remember? I responded to what you said. I’ve never disputed that the vaccines have proven some utility. I’ve pointed out that they were not nearly as effective at mitigating spread of the diseases as the public was told when they got the shots. Which has damaged trust in public health establishments.


The public didn’t roll up their sleeves under the impression they would all get covid six months later.

Since these virus and the vaccines are new it was known there would be uncertainty which was communicated to people by Health. Provincially and federally.

Most people responded to that data with reservation that it would end the pandemic. BC and Alberta dropped most mandates last year as people got vaccinated. Alberta declared the pandemic over, that didn't turn out so good for Alberta.

 

[Kraz]

 

[funkygunther]

The public didn’t roll up their sleeves under the impression they would all get covid six months later.

They did, because they continued to get vaccinated (2nd and 3rd shots) throughout Delta's wave

 

[DeepBreath87]

They did, because they continued to get vaccinated (2nd and 3rd shots) throughout Delta's wave

They did what? Got vaccinated in June thinking they would all get covid in December? I can promise you they did not. And even mentioning it as a possibility would’ve seen you banned from major social media platforms as recently as last fall.

The idea that the covid shots were almost purely therapeutic in nature was not mentioned as their primary utility. Their goal was, as your friend mentioned, to mitigate spread. That was the point of the passports. Because we were under the impression that vaccinated people weren’t going to be spreading the disease.

Masking of children in schools has been another good example. There are obviously costs to the social and mental well being of kids when you put masks on them. Now perhaps if masks provided meaningful benefit in schools, we could justify their use. However 2 years later it seems like we did that for almost no reason:

Covid: Evidence on face masks in schools 'inconclusive'

Government admits uncertainty over whether face coverings will truly cut Covid spread.

www.bbc.com

It said this was not statistically significant and the greater reduction in schools where masks were worn could be down to chance.

Even if it was statistically significant, you would have to weight it against the costs:

This is despite 94% of school leaders and teachers saying it made communication between teachers and pupils more difficult.
Some 80% of pupils also said it made communication harder, but 70% said it made them feel safer.

So we made communication between teacher and students harder for between 80-94% of students for a statistically irrelevant decrease in viral transmission and the illusion of safety. Does that sound like good policy? And still in the US there are schools forcing these failed policies at the expense of the kids they serve.

 

[funkygunther]

They did what? Got vaccinated in June thinking they would all get covid in December? I can promise you they did not. And even mentioning it as a possibility would’ve seen you banned from major social media platforms as recently as last fall.

They continued to get vaccinated despite it being known that Delta (and Omicron after it) could be transmitted after vaccination. That's just what happened, the mutation and vaccine response changed and people continued to get vaccinated. Don't need any promises there.

 

[Fools idol]

I finally got it, GaF.

I feel ok for the most part. Just a bad headache and a tickley cough. Slept it off for the first two days, now feeling a lot better.

 

[Vicetrailia]

The vaccine and restrictions did a great job if you look at countries on an individual level (ignoring that the whole world didn’t have unlimited vaccines all at one time).

The problem is the virus mutated, and highly self destructive anti-vaxxers/freedom fighters (in large numbers) weakened the impact of the restrictions.

Self destructive people like deathprophet87 undermined the policies and vaccines the entire duration of covid (and continue to), and wonder why it wasn’t more effective. They make excuse after excuse, but in the end they are self destructive, and in the end the mandates and so on did prove effective despite mass numbers not respecting them in any capacity.

 

[Vicetrailia]

They did, because they continued to get vaccinated (2nd and 3rd shots) throughout Delta's wave

The funny part is that delta is still around, it’s just not the dominant strain and weakened by the vaccine. And the delta vaccine has protection against the new strain even though it doesn’t prevent catching the new strain all that well. But some people won’t catch omnicron at all due to the vaccine like my girlfriend, and I had barely noticeable symptoms for 6 hours but tested positive.

I have friends who were staunch anti vaccine like deathprophet87, and then they realized that it’s just easier to get the vaccine because they got really sick from covid twice, and got tired of missing tradeshows due to it (they work in sales). They are no longer self-destructive.

 

[sinnergy]

It’s all marketing, there are internal governments emails leaked about , holding carrots in front of the population for restrictions and other stuff ..

 

[sinnergy]

The funny part is that delta is still around, it’s just not the dominant strain and weakened by the vaccine. And the delta vaccine has protection against the new strain even though it doesn’t prevent catching the new strain all that well. But some people won’t catch omnicron at all due to the vaccine like my girlfriend, and I had barely noticeable symptoms for 6 hours but tested positive.

I have friends who were staunch anti vaccine like deathprophet87, and then they realized that it’s just easier to get the vaccine because they got really sick from covid twice, and got tired of missing tradeshows due to it (they work in sales). They are no longer self-destructive.

Some people won’t catch it for what ever reason .. genetics .. or a difference in immunity from the start .. who knows , scientists don’t yet ..

 

[DeepBreath87]

The vaccine and restrictions did a great job if you look at countries on an individual level (ignoring that the whole world didn’t have unlimited vaccines all at one time).

The problem is the virus mutated, and highly self destructive anti-vaxxers/freedom fighters (in large numbers) weakened the impact of the restrictions.

Self destructive people like deathprophet87 undermined the policies and vaccines the entire duration of covid (and continue to), and wonder why it wasn’t more effective. They make excuse after excuse, but in the end they are self destructive, and in the end the mandates and so on did prove effective despite mass numbers not respecting them in any capacity.

Self destructive? Antivaccine? Look at you jumping to conclusions. I got the vaccine. So did everyone I work with. And I watched as steadily the things they said about it got rolled back. The durability. The preventive of symptomatic disease. The prevention of transmission. All proved vastly overrated at the outset. You’re reduced to “I would’ve gotten even more sick” in literally months. And that’s fine. Doesn’t invalidate the vaccines as a positive. It just means they didn’t perform as advertised.

 

[poppabk]

How quickly you forget. Remember when vaccinated people didn’t get the virus? Or when they didn’t transmit the virus? A lot of people took those claims to heart. Turns out that wasn’t true about six months later. They didn’t mention that in the brochure. People don’t like when they take medicine based on claims that turn out to be false.

They never said it did that in the brochure. I think the only people who give a shit about this is people who didn't get the vaccine because they were already in their own little world where:
HCQ and ivermectin were almost 100% effective (they weren't),
Any new powers the government got they wouldn't let go (except they are),
The vaccines were extremely dangerous (they weren't),
Covid was just the flu (it wasn't),
And that's just the mild side of the crap that was been spread around. And even though it was all complete and utter crap - the people still trust the mouthpieces who told them those things, and still believe what they are saying. The problem isn't losing trust in the right people, the problem is people trusting the wrong people.

 

[DeepBreath87]

They never said it did that in the brochure. I think the only people who give a shit about this is people who didn't get the vaccine because they were already in their own little world where:
HCQ and ivermectin were almost 100% effective (they weren't),
Any new powers the government got they wouldn't let go (except they are),
The vaccines were extremely dangerous (they weren't),
Covid was just the flu (it wasn't),
And that's just the mild side of the crap that was been spread around. And even though it was all complete and utter crap - the people still trust the mouthpieces who told them those things, and still believe what they are saying. The problem isn't losing trust in the right people, the problem is people trusting the wrong people.

It's official: Vaccinated people don't spread COVID-19 | Fortune

CDC Director Rochelle Walensky this week declared that "vaccinated people do not carry the virus."

fortune.com

CDC Director Rochelle Walensky this week declared that "vaccinated people do not carry the virus."​

 

[funkygunther]

It's official: Vaccinated people don't spread COVID-19 | Fortune

CDC Director Rochelle Walensky this week declared that "vaccinated people do not carry the virus."

fortune.com

these examples are from April 2021, pre Delta (and for USA, only just at start of Alpha dominance stage)

 

[Chittagong]

It’s true, the vaccine and passports were very much marketed on the idea of stopping spread. They didn’t bother updating the vaccine, it is still og Wuhan virus from the last decade. When they figured out the vaccine does fuck all to infection, the pitch changed to preventing hospitalisation and death. Which I guess it does, although we don’t have much of a control group.

Literally every one triple shotted I know including myself got omicron. And it had substantial symptoms for everyone, even if not serious. Certainly not asymptomatic.

 

[DeepBreath87]

these examples are from April 2021, pre Delta (and for USA, only just at start of Alpha dominance stage)

Actually Biden’s “protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated” is from September. And the larger point is that when you make definitive quotes about things like preventing transmission or symptomatic disease at over 90% and by the end of that season, it turns out to be wrong, you shouldn’t have made the claim. The idea that because they couldn’t have known what how the virus would mutate, it was fine to make very specific claims, and the excuses them from scrutiny just a few months later is nonsense. Don’t make the claim. We made policies based on claims that didn’t hold up.

I’ll put it this way: if you aren’t disappointed that what public health officials said about this vaccine just a few months ago, you have very low standards.

 

[funkygunther]

Actually Biden’s “protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated” is from September. And the larger point is that when you make definitive quotes about things like preventing transmission or symptomatic disease at over 90% and by the end of that season, it turns out to be wrong, you shouldn’t have made the claim. The idea that because they couldn’t have known what how the virus would mutate, it was fine to make very specific claims, and the excuses them from scrutiny just a few months later is nonsense. Don’t make the claim. We made policies based on claims that didn’t hold up.

I’ll put it this way: if you aren’t disappointed that what public health officials said about this vaccine just a few months ago, you have very low standards.

that’s why I didn’t specifically quote Biden

the idea that every thing you read ever has to have a “for now” disclaimer to placate you is a weird Goldilocks syndrome when, if something changes and your message changes alongside it is a much more pragmatic and effective approach to a situation that, well, keeps changing…the alternative is to either say nothing at all, no matter how true it is at the time, or stubbornly refusing to accept things evolve

 

[DeepBreath87]

that’s why I didn’t specifically quote Biden

the idea that every thing you read ever has to have a “for now” disclaimer to placate you is a weird Goldilocks syndrome when, if something changes and your message changes alongside it is a much more pragmatic and effective approach to a situation that, well, keeps changing…the alternative is to either say nothing at all, no matter how true it is at the time, or stubbornly refusing to accept things evolve

I expect that when we make policies have a pretty large impact on society, like having to present vaccination status to go out for dinner, that the underlying facts the supposedly justify the policy will hold true for more than six months. I guess I just have higher standards than you do.

 

[prinz_valium]

CoVariants: Per Country

CoVariants: Plots of Frequencies by Country

covariants.org

Alpha was never as dominant as Delta or Omicron.
Some states were just over 50% Alpha during peek Alpha wave.
Working against variants was always in mind.



Edit:
Also 8 days since first noticeable Covid symptoms for me.
Guess I won't end up in the hospital anymore.

 

[funkygunther]

I expect that when we make policies have a pretty large impact on society, like having to present vaccination status to go out for dinner, that the underlying facts surrounding the policy will hold true for more than six months. I guess I just have higher standards than you do.

more like you just pick arbitrary timings for policies around new pandemics, then claim to have higher standards

pretty large impact to society = not being able to go to a restaurant…your standards are all over the place

 

[DeepBreath87]

more like you just pick arbitrary timings for policies around new pandemics, then claim to have higher standards

pretty large impact to society = not being able to go to a restaurant…your standards are all over the place

Really? You don’t think the mandates and passports had a large impact on society? I shudder to think what you consider a large impact on society in that case. Going to a restaurant was what’s called an “example”. I figured I wouldn’t have to explain that to you. But I guess you should look up what that word means. Either that or stop being pedantic.

 

[funkygunther]

Really? You don’t think the mandates and passports had a large impact on society? I shudder to think what you consider a large impact on society then. Going to a restaurant was what’s called an “example”. I figured I wouldn’t have to explain that to you. But I guess you should look up what that word means. Either that or stop being pedantic.

It was a bad example then, because not being able to go to a restaurant has its biggest effects on the businesses and the workers who should be given monetary support during any time policy is affecting their ability to trade. I have no idea what other large impacts you’re talking about, maybe you can present some data or actually realised examples.

 

[DeepBreath87]

It was a bad example then, because not being able to go to a restaurant has its biggest effects on the businesses and the workers who should be given monetary support during any time policy is affecting their ability to trade. I have no idea what other large impacts you’re talking about, maybe you can present some data or actually realised examples.

canada protests: Protests Swell in Canada’s Capital as Ontario Police Struggle to End Bridge Blockade (Published 2022)

By Saturday night, the Ambassador Bridge, a key crossing at the U.S.-Canada border, was still closed. Protesters in Ottawa, the capital, vastly outnumbered the police.

www.nytimes.com

I can write your response for you if you’d like. The one where you say that’s not the fault of policy but of public response to said policy. But like I said, these policies had consequences and never even accomplished their stated goal of stopping the spread of the virus. We just had our largest spike of the entire pandemic in spite of all these policies. And now we also have a breakdown of social cohesion. So was it worth it? I’d say no.

 

[funkygunther]

canada protests: Protests Swell in Canada’s Capital as Ontario Police Struggle to End Bridge Blockade (Published 2022)

By Saturday night, the Ambassador Bridge, a key crossing at the U.S.-Canada border, was still closed. Protesters in Ottawa, the capital, vastly outnumbered the police.

www.nytimes.com

I can write your response for you if you’d like. The one where you say that’s not the fault of policy but of public response to said policy. But like I said, these policies had consequences and never even accomplished their stated goal of stopping the spread of the virus. We just had our largest spike of the entire pandemic in spite of all these policies. And now we also have a breakdown of social cohesion. So was it worth it? I’d say no.

it is definitely a nice argument to say that accountability and responsibility sits with whoever you feel like, does that also extend to crimes? it’s very easy to treat everyone as a victim of cause and effect when everything is a victim of cause and effect but unfortunately there is no correlative or causal effect between a vaccine mandate and blocking a road with your truck, in fact that could be just as easily be handwaved as a convenient excuse rather a consequence and you would still be in the same position

 

[DeepBreath87]

it is definitely a nice argument to say that accountability and responsibility sits with whoever you feel like, does that also extend to crimes? it’s very easy to treat everyone as a victim of cause and effect when everything is a victim of cause and effect but unfortunately there is no correlative or causal effect between a vaccine mandate and blocking a road with your truck, in fact that could be just as easily be handwaved as a convenient excuse rather a consequence and you would still be in the same position

Haha. You nicely avoided my question. Is this policy worth the breakdown in society it is clearly causing?

 

[funkygunther]

Haha. You nicely avoided my question. Is this policy worth the breakdown in society it is clearly causing?

I’m seeing supply restrictions to car factories on either side of the border and impacts to the workers there…is that what what you mean?

If the blockade is illegal, then any punitive damages should be covered by the illegal protestors involved and charged…society restored!

 

[FireFly]

Now we have a crisis of confidence in leadership. That’s not a good place to be in a democracy. It makes of society weak. We need to be able to believe that the people in charge are at the very least competent. Preferably honest as well. Right now a lot of the society believes neither. Turns out our governments couldn’t stop the virus. And the vaccines, while providing some value, didn’t do what they promised. And our kids should’ve been in school. And people sacrificed a lot for little in return. And until the people in charge take responsibility for that, many many people are not going to trust them any more.

I can't disagree with your main point about effective communication, but I think it is an understatement to say that the vaccines provided "some" value. Vaccination is what has allowed us to live with the virus in the first place, by bringing the IFR closer to that of seasonal flu.

Suppression of the virus makes sense, if we aren't prepared to live with the social consequences of its spread, but that balance changes once those consequences become more palatable.

 

[poppabk]

Haha. You nicely avoided my question. Is this policy worth the breakdown in society it is clearly causing?

What policy?

 

[DeepBreath87]

I’m seeing supply restrictions to car factories on either side of the border and impacts to the workers there…is that what what you mean?

If the blockade is illegal, then any punitive damages should be covered by the illegal protestors involved and charged…society restored!

$300 million in trade passes over that bridge every day. It’s been shut down for a week. We’re in the billions now in terms of lost productivity. It’s the busiest bridge in terms of trade in the Western Hemisphere. You can be glib about it, but when you tell a large group of people that they either need to comply or you’re going to take their livelihoods away, you run the risk of them refusing to do what you say and pushing back.

You might not agree with them. I’m not necessarily sure I agree with their tactics. But the point remains. Does the policy justify itself? If these people will not do what you want, and they will not passively accept the consequences of the mandates, what are you willing to do to them? And can you justify whatever measures you need to take to bring these people to heel. Jailing thousands of people is not to be taken lightly. Especially if the mandates and restrictions aren’t that effective.

 

[Kraz]

$300 million in trade passes over that bridge every day. It’s been shut down for a week. We’re in the billions now in terms of lost productivity. It’s the busiest bridge in terms of trade in the Western Hemisphere. You can be glib about it, but when you tell a large group of people that they either need to comply or you’re going to take their livelihoods away, you run the risk of them refusing to do what you say and pushing back.

You might not agree with them. I’m not necessarily sure I agree with their tactics. But the point remains. Does the policy justify itself? If these people will not do what you want, and they will not passively accept the consequences of the mandates, what are you willing to do to them? And can you justify whatever measures you need to take to bring these people to heel. Jailing thousands of people is not to be taken lightly. Especially if the mandates and restrictions aren’t that effective.

The mandates and restrictions have proven effective.

If it wasn't for the foreign financial support for this protest to try to push their failed agenda in Canada the protest wouldn't even have gone this far. There are regulatory weaknesses propagating the protest but it's not related to the mandates.

 

[DeepBreath87]

The mandates and restrictions have proven effective.

If it wasn't for the foreign financial support for this protest to try to push their failed agenda in Canada the protest wouldn't even have gone this far. There are regulatory weaknesses propagating the protest but it's not related to the mandates.

Effective at what? Not slowing the spread of covid.

Canada COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Canada Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

You just had your largest spike of the pandemic. You’re in the midst of what rivals your largest spike in death. This despite all the mandates and restrictions. The point of all this was to flatten the curve. To not have spikes. I know we’ve decided to pretend that wasn’t the case because it’s hard to admit mistakes, but that’s the truth.

So you’ve got societal upheaval and your largest spike in covid. I’d call those measures ineffective.

 

[Kraz]

Effective at what? Not slowing the spread of covid.

Canada COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Canada Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

You just had your largest spike of the pandemic. You’re in the midst of what rivals your largest spike in death. This despite all the mandates and restrictions. The point of all this was to flatten the curve. To not have spikes. I know we’ve decided to pretend that wasn’t the case because it’s hard to admit mistakes, but that’s the truth.

So you’ve got societal upheaval and your largest spike in covid. I’d call those measures ineffective.

You keep running around the same incorrect assumption.

Can you understand that things are worse without the mandates?

That was proven last year between Alberta and BC.

Your commentary on the social issues is dishonest and not taking into account all the factors.

 

[DeepBreath87]

You keep running around the same incorrect assumption.

Can you understand that things are worse without the mandates?

That was proven last year between Alberta and BC.

Your commentary on the social issues is dishonest and not taking into account all the factors.

I’m being completely honest. Just because you don’t like what I’m saying doesn’t mean it isn’t true. The people who don’t want the vaccine don’t want to accept the consequences the government is trying to impose upon them. It’s not especially complicated. It’s a direct consequence of these policies and restrictive nature of Canada’s response to the pandemic.

Saying it “would’ve been worse” isn’t really working for most people. We’ve been hearing that for 2 years. Every spike “would’ve been worse” if not for whatever stupid restriction or mandate got placed upon society. And yet we just had the biggest spike so far. Despite all the masks and vaccines, the virus spread faster than ever. Calling that “effective” is generous in the absurd.

 

[Kraz]

I’m being completely honest. Just because you don’t like what I’m saying doesn’t mean it isn’t true. The people who are don’t want the vaccine don’t want to accept the consequences the government is trying to impose upon them. It’s not especially complicated. It’s a direct consequence of these policies and restrictive nature of Canada’s response to the pandemic.

If that's your honest opinion it is poorly informed.

 

[DeepBreath87]

If that's your honest opinion it is poorly informed.

Feel free to inform me.

 

[Kraz]

Feel free to inform me.

Unsure where to even begin this effort from my side.
Education is best self guided for adults.

The easiest would be for you to stop interjecting strong opinions on slight impressions and little understanding . Watch and ask questions.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Unsure where to even begin this effort from my side.
Education is best self guided for adults.

The easiest would be for you to stop interjecting strong opinions on slight impressions and little understanding . Watch and ask questions.

Haha. Ok. I think you may be making this a bit more complicated than it is. This isn’t some insurgency operation. It’s a group of Canadian citizens who are upset. They’re literally saying why they are doing this stuff. It’s not a mystery.

 

[Kraz]

Haha. Ok. I think you may be making this a bit more complicated than it is. This isn’t some insurgency operation. It’s a group of Canadian citizens who are upset. They’re literally saying why they are doing this stuff. It’s not a mystery.

They did literally say why with their recent request to ask the GG to dismiss parliament and install them as leaders. Along with lesser irrational requests.

You're lending them legitimacy they don't have with your superficial projection.

 

[DeepBreath87]

They did literally say why with their recent request to ask the GG to dismiss parliament and install them as leaders. Along with lesser irrational requests.

You're lending them legitimacy they don't have with your superficial projection.

I don’t think they’re tightly organized. So you’re going to have a lot of them saying a lot of things. My impression is that if the vaccine mandates were rolled back, most of these people would go home.

 

[Kraz]

I don’t think they’re tightly organized. So you’re going to have a lot of them saying a lot of things. My impression is that if the vaccine mandates were rolled back, most of these people would go home.

Ottawa police would disagree.