TheDreadBaron
Member
That’s got layers, who is the true beast?
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That’s got layers, who is the true beast?
SF Kosmo
Banned
I mean if the vaccine is safe for kids and immunity does indeed last years, it certainly can't hurt, but I agree it's not really necessary as kids under 12 have pretty similar levels of immunity to vaccinated adults.
Some of this stuff is just Pfizer and Moderna wanting to sell more doses before their vaccine is replaced by second gen vaccines. The third Pfizer shot initiative they're trying to get approved, for example. Seems pretty unnecessary at this point, especially when new shots that more precisely target the delta variant are around the corner.
DeepBreath87
Banned
Evolve was the game.
QSD
Member
BTW re: the whole Weinsteins vs The World saga, this bit on Rebel Wisdom could be interesting although the main gist is still "it's complicated". I generally appreciate Rebel Wisdom and David Fuller's input. He's always measured and makes an effort to stay detached, but in this case he does refer to the Weinsteins/IDW as "the galaxy brains" which made me sensibly chuckle
TheDreadBaron
Member
QSD
Member
One thing I found interesting is the first speaker after David Fuller points out the kind of below-the-belt smearing the Quilette article seems to engage in. If you checked out the twitter thread by Deigin you will have noticed that he doesn't tend to hold back on the ad-homs. Even is Weinstein&Heying are as stupid and wrong as Deigin suggests, in my eyes they still hold the moral high ground in the argument because they almost never stoop to smearing or ad homs, the worst you'll see out of them is an occasional sarcastic quip
Edit: well maybe that isn't entirely true, they did call the whole Ivermectin saga "the crime of the century" and that's certainly somewhat incendiary.
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BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
This made me giggle, wholesome news in a way.
www.npr.org
The French Rush For Vaccines After They're Told They'll Need Them To Go To Cafes
On Monday, 926,000 people booked their first dose through the online medical platform Doctolib — "an absolute record," the site says.
www.npr.org
Shai-Tan
Banned
Neither he nor Heying are credible experts but some people are swayed by the anti-establishment narrative which then provides a frame to dismiss what actual experts think without looking into relevant details that expose their serious errors in reasoning. Instead their fans cry about how people who know what they're talking about aren't being nice and are being "unfair" (driven by cognitive dissonance). How the truth must be somewhere in between (which is actually true to the extent that the absurd caricatures they're feeding aren't what actual experts think about vaccines, ivermectin, etc)
TheDreadBaron
Member
Did you listen to it? I hear you talking about what fans are crying about, but not the arguments they make. What makes them not credible?
TheDreadBaron
Member
And what are the relevant details that expose their errors in reasoning? Let's chat about it.
Birdo
Banned
I read that you can use a negative test too, so it's not too bad. Messed up, but not yet full-on riot territory.
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
23-year-old anti-vax nurse dies of COVID in Louisiana COVID
https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/coronavirus/article_8a4b8208-e1cb-11eb-ba04-37f42eb02e90.html
www.resetera.com
this thread might be some of the most vile shit I've ever read tbh
DeepBreath87
Banned
Just unredeemable pieces of shit over there.23-year-old anti-vax nurse dies of COVID in Louisiana COVID
https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/coronavirus/article_8a4b8208-e1cb-11eb-ba04-37f42eb02e90.html
this thread might be some of the most vile shit I've ever read tbh
TheDreadBaron
Member
Warmest place on the internet, maybe it’s the proximity to hell
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
A little more insight on Tennessee as it relates to our exchange:
Tennessee abandons vaccine outreach to minors — not just for COVID-19
Tennessee halted all vaccine outreach to minors, not just for COVID-19, amid pressure from Republican lawmakers. A vaccine expert was also fired.
www.tennessean.com
The Tennessee Dept of Health has halted all vaccine outreach to kids – not just for COVID-19, but all diseases. I think it's fair to say that they place ideology and emotion above science and the well being of children.
EverythingsOverrated
Member
Anyone read this article?
"Biden allied groups, including the Democratic National Committee, are also planning to engage fact-checkers more aggressively and work with SMS carriers to dispel misinformation about vaccines that is sent over social media and text messages. The goal is to ensure that people who may have difficulty getting a vaccination because of issues like transportation see those barriers lessened or removed entirely."
So lobbying social media and mobile carriers to censor dms and text messages.....?
In before the "Authoritarianism is ok when I agree with it" people show up
DeepBreath87
Banned
Shit’s crazy. This is not a door we should be opening.
xellos2099alpha
Member
I truly wonder why Japan is doing so poorly now since it was doing so well in the beginning. Now they in the state of emergency.
Shai-Tan
Banned
This was already collated in that quillette article written by a previous guest of Bret's podcast (others have done the same over the past few months but it's all over the place in twitter threads)
Looking for COVID-19 ‘Miracle Drugs’? We Already Have Them. They’re Called Vaccines
The evidence that mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines are safe, and that they work, is about as solid as medical evidence gets.
quillette.com
then bret did a podcast responding to it and this is the thread responding to that:
The most frustrating thing about it is how people like Bret just slot into a narrative. Most aren't defending him because they care about the details. So some people persist, throwing up claims of bad faith, seize on irrelevant details which is mostly just an excuse to avoid cognitive dissonance about the pre existing narrative. Part of the credulity is in general ignorance about subfields of biology and medicine. Bret has a degree in theoretical evolutionary biology, particularly fundamental mechanisms of selection and change which have very little to do with basic biology, virology, epidemiology, and he has not demonstrated basic knowledge of statistics to evaluate medical studies, let alone have an expert opinion. He's just a conduit for even more ignorant vaccine skepticism, cartoonish anti-institutional ideology, etc
longdi
Banned
23-year-old anti-vax nurse dies of COVID in Louisiana COVID
https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/coronavirus/article_8a4b8208-e1cb-11eb-ba04-37f42eb02e90.html
this thread might be some of the most vile shit I've ever read tbh
what's wrong with those people...and they claim they are some pro human shit
im vaxed meself, but i won't never be any vile to those they don't or haven't.
TheDreadBaron
Member
This was already collated in that quillette article written by a previous guest of Bret's podcast (others have done the same over the past few months but it's all over the place in twitter threads)
Looking for COVID-19 ‘Miracle Drugs’? We Already Have Them. They’re Called Vaccines
The evidence that mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines are safe, and that they work, is about as solid as medical evidence gets.
then bret did a podcast responding to it and this is the thread responding to that:
The most frustrating thing about it is how people like Bret just slot into a narrative. Most aren't defending him because they care about the details. So some people persist, throwing up claims of bad faith, seize on irrelevant details which is mostly just an excuse to avoid cognitive dissonance about the pre existing narrative. Part of the credulity is in general ignorance about subfields of biology and medicine. Bret has a degree in theoretical evolutionary biology, particularly fundamental mechanisms of selection and change which have very little to do with basic biology, virology, epidemiology, and he has not demonstrated basic knowledge of statistics to evaluate medical studies, let alone have an expert opinion. He's just a conduit for even more ignorant vaccine skepticism, cartoonish anti-institutional ideology, etc
That Deigin twitter rant reads like a twitter rant. I haven’t really heard from you why you think their argument isn’t credible other than referring me to Quilette and Yuri. Well he’s clearly emotional and throwing around a lot of insults, it doesnt come across as very level headed to me. Bret could be totally wrong but what’s wrong with the evidence? To dismiss ivermectin you have to dismiss all the positive studies that already exist, and that’s pretty hard to do.
I guess you did say you thought his degree wasn't sufficient, but I don't think you need to be a virologist to interpret studies. He did have a virologist on his podcast named Robert Malone who agreed with much of the information put forward. Does it not count because he's not a statistician?
And you didn’t answer if you'd listened to the podcast.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
First part - wrong. Second part - wrong, it is governments responsibility thus things like safety belts in cars, or fines for drunk driving.
People might understand the concept but won’t do anything if it inconveniences them in any way, which is ridiculous because small thing for you may mean big thing for person that will not end in hospital. People in France didn’t want to get vaccinated so government drastically extended the range of activities vaccination or test is required for. Guess what, suddenly everyone wants to get vaccinated, shocker!
Cyberpunkd
Member
They give a shit about grandpa and grandma that little Timmy or Suzie can contaminate. How is that hard to understand?
Cyberpunkd
Member
If anything Covid didn’t kill enough people since as seen in this thread or throughout the world people think this is no big deal.
If the mortality rate was much higher you could be sure governments would have acted swiftly without endless appeals to each person sense of responsibility for others.
TheDreadBaron
Member
God just the thought of that swift government crackdown is getting you visibly excited
You grew up in a socialist country, yes? You don't need to perpetuate the shit that was done to you on your enemies, it just keeps the cycle going.
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Raven117
Member
Dude, measured responses are a thing. Take a long look in the mirror and really give some thought about whether you really prefer jackboot style government or actually support freedom (and understand that different circumstances require different responses ).
EverythingsOverrated
Member
I think we know the answer.
He still never answered my question whether he felt that the covid vaccines should be mandated or not. The predictable answer is "No they shouldn't be mandated but you should accept the consequences" aka let's segregate society and make vaccines mandatory in a roundabout way.
Raven117
Member
Yeah, perspective just isn’t a thing with these types of folks.
What’s funny is that we have separation of church and state in the US. For the 21st Century we need separation of Business and State. Can’t get it done legislatively? Just have a meeting with high up execs, shake a few hands, boom. Private enterprise just skirted the Constitution for the government.
Shai-Tan
Banned
dude, go watch the video I posted of Vinay Prasad talking about ivermectin. Bret and Heather are so out of their depth it's embarassing.
There's an asymmetry in that academics with relevant expertise generally have better things to do than listen to 2+ hours podcasts from vaccine skeptics so generally you'll just get something like this
TheDreadBaron
Member
I'll watch whatever you want to put forward, I'm open to skepticism, I just want a clear answer if you've listened to the podcast.
Shai-Tan
Banned
Not beyond a few minutes. There's no new information here that would lead me to suspect what others are saying about it is inaccurate. I've listened to previous podcasts, over the last few months rehashing the same arguments. I've also read his PHD thesis and several books by his thesis advisor Richard Alexander back when he was talking about evolutionary theory (hint: close to zero overlap in those topics with covid)
vpance
Member
Granpa can get the fucking vaccine. 95% efficacy right? A society that would put its children at risk for the old might not be one worth saving.
Anything that goes in children has always been trialed for YEARS, because we do not want to fuck with the future generation. They have 60-70 years left to live. All of a sudden that's thrown out the window, to save granpa? Please. They are far from being the main vectors for transmission anyways.
It was and never has been about saving the old, otherwise they wouldn't have deterred and pushed the censorship of legitimate and safe therapeutics, which they continue to do. Instead, countless severe cases ended up dying on ventilators and simple neglect of early treatment.
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Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Holy fuck this guy in the video is a moron. Where do people find these nut jobs?
Natural Covid 19 immunity isn’t perfect either. If vaccines are “resetting” herd immunity then we never had a chance in the first place. The best way to avoid mutations is to reduce reproduction I.e. prevent transmission.
Shai-Tan
Banned
therapeutics aren't necessarily neutral. in video above a study was cited that suggested net negative effect of hydroxychloroquine i.e. people dying at higher rates taking it. early treatment protocol was obviously not ideal. it's a learning process. and why it's important to find a good antiviral in addition to vaccine
you're also discounting potential long term effects of covid itself. from what I've seen, even in younger people, those far outweigh (rare) effects of vaccines so far, so the application of the precautionary principle is potentially doing far more harm in that case. it would be nice if the moral calculus was easy. at the current rate of vaccinations covid will be endemic and unvaccinated people will have a good chance of getting it eventually
TheDreadBaron
Member
This was a good discussion, thanks for sharing!
They made a good case about ivermectin being too good to be true. It being censored definitely got my attention, it seemed like a reasonable take.
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BarringGaffner
Member
What is it that makes people blind to obvious grifters like Bret Weinstein?
Even if the majority of people under 60 catch the virus, while everyone over 60 is kept in special institutions to prevent mixing, it's not going to be enough to achieve herd immunity in the population, especially with Delta. So forced segregation is merely a delaying tactic, like lockdown and other forms of virus suppression.
FunkMiller
Banned
FunkMiller
Banned
I mean… you can quite easily criticise and make fun of the idiots in the anti vax movement, and still not engage in ghoulish pleasure posts about a human being’s death. It’s really not hard.
DeepBreath87
Banned
I think you’ve lost the plot. You’re just a weirdo now. “If only the virus killed more people, we could have the government crackdown I’ve always dreamed of”. That’s what you effectively said right there. You’ve revealed yourself as a zealot. The mirror image of the people you so dislike. Intractable and ideological. Not someone worthy of serious discussion.
Why don’t you lock yourself down and do us all a favor.
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Birdo
Banned
The biggest problem the human race will face now is the upcoming population boom.
Because of restrictions, far less people have died than usual during the pandemic. On top of that, everyone decided to reproduce during lockdown, leading to a potential new "Baby boom" generation.
I guess they could avoid this by injecting everyone with something..... that...... attacks women's...... ovaries...... wait.....
Because of restrictions, far less people have died than usual during the pandemic. On top of that, everyone decided to reproduce during lockdown, leading to a potential new "Baby boom" generation.
I guess they could avoid this by injecting everyone with something..... that...... attacks women's...... ovaries...... wait.....
QSD
Member
What about his remarks in that tucker segment makes him an obvious grifter? Insofar as 'grifter' doesn't just mean "person that makes money on the internet that I disagree with'.
He talks about breakthrough cases where people that have been vaccinated still get infected, which is something that I can personally attest to happens. Me and my colleagues from work have been fully vaxxed for months now, yet yesterday a colleague of mine was found to be infected and had to cancel her holiday plans. She's currently in quarantine at her house. She's not very sick, only had a mild fever for 1 day, so it might well have escaped her attention, allowing her to infect more people. What Bret is saying is that having a large contingent of the population walking vaccinated with the current vaccines (which aren't 100% effective) will put selection pressure on the virus which will heavily favour variants that are less or unaffected by the vaccines. We may thus be providing a breeding ground for new variants we have no way to combat. I can't see why that would be an unsound argument, scientifically illiterate, morally reprehensible or what have you. But I don't have a biology degree. Maybe you can enlighten me on why that could never happen?
SF Kosmo
Banned
Who is being asked to place themselves at risk? There is no age group for whom the vaccine is riskier than Covid. In fact they appear to be some of the safest vaccines ever produced.
They normally take years to come to market, in part because they usually handle production and logistics after trials. By subsidizing the former, we were able to do that in parallel this time, which would have been finiancially risky for pharma under normal cicumstances.
The fact is, these vaccines have now been "tested" on hundreds of millions of people. They're safe. I know you might be disappointed about that for some reason, but you can't really argue about what might happen after the fact, now can you?
Raven117
Member
They are more than likely safe. We don’t know if there are any long term issues, but all signs are pointing that risk is low when choosing to take the vaccine.
i think that is what you meant to say
FunkMiller
Banned
This is fundamentally why the anti-vaccine movement is such a silly, brain dead thing.
Literally billions of people have had the vaccine. There is no evidence to suggest that anyone other than a tiny, tiny minority are having serious side effects - exactly in line with all the data gathered during the trials phase.
The goalposts have of course moved to ‘long term serious side effects’ because that’s easier than acknowledging that you were wrong about the short term ones, and are probably wrong about the long term ones as well.
You can never underestimate the capacity of a human being to continue believing something, even directly in the face of evidence that contradicts that belief. Remarkable stuff.
SF Kosmo
Banned
There's a lot of concern trolling about "long term effects" unrelated to short term effects, but that's not really a thing with vaccines. There's no way for a vaccine to cause a problem in the long term that doesn't exist in the short term. How would that even happen? I mean antibody reactivity could be a lasting effect, but that would also show up in the short term, it wouldn't suddenly appear later on.
I think
FunkMiller
is right, it's sort of a last thing that vaccine skeptics can cling to, after being proven wrong about the vaccine's danger's and efficacy. "Oh yeah? Well maybe they'll BECOME dangerous later!"
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bigsnack
Member
I agree, although to be fair this is also exactly what happened with the lockdown addicts regarding the virus itself. Long covid became the topic of conversation after it was clear that death was far more likely for only a very small subset of people.
FunkMiller
Banned
There's been over reaction on both sides of the equation, for definite. Some have denied that covid is deadly, while others have acted like it's the black plague. Sign of the times, unfortunately. Nobody is capable of nuanced thought about anything.
The truth is that covid is a deadly disease to a small minority, and it's down to the majority to help make things as safe as possible for those at risk, by taking a safe and effective vaccine.
This really shouldn't be controversial, difficult or hard to do. But we live in an age where stupidity, selfishness, conspiracy and melodrama are rampant. Future generations will hopefully look back on us and laugh their arses off.
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