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[Raven117]

The vaccine is not 100% effective. Some vulnerable people cannot take it. Your argument holds no water whatsoever.



Not all of them genius. That’s the point.

Its damn near close to 100% effective. Oh, so you, champion of the handful of people who can't take the vaccine. Well, quite frankly, the freedom of all to make their own healthcare decisions over the weak (minuscule) amount of people who cant take the vaccine is just not something I (and most of the electorate) care about. They can wear N-95 masks for the rest of their life. Thankfully, in this country, we aren't heading that way so your authoritative/totalitarianism nonsense guised as "good-intentions" is no more than an after-thought. With that, I will not engage on this any longer. Let this thread get back to normal.

 

[Bladed Thesis]

Nope. But I believe people should take a safe and effective vaccine to help protect those vulnerable to the disease.

So based on CDC's own statistics you think the obese and those over 70 should get the vaccine?

That's it? Wow, stunning and brave statement to make.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

My mistake. Confused you for little gobbie. Easy mistake to make.

 

[Birdo]

COVID 19 Thread 3: [No bitching about vaccines] incoming....

 

[FunkMiller]

Weird 15 minutes ago you were telling us there was no good reason not to take the vaccine because it is effective and now you are saying there ARE reasons not to take the vaccine and it's not effective.

Jesus Christ. The brain trust are in tonight.

There are no good reasons not to take the vaccine… but it is not 100% effective. Therefore, as many people as possible have to take it, to keep the vulnerable safe.

Fuck about, folks.

 

[Taxexemption]

Jesus Christ. The brain trust are in tonight.

There are no good reasons not to take the vaccine… but it is not 100% effective. Therefore, as many people as possible have to take it, to keep the vulnerable safe.

Fuck about, folks.

How does taking the vaccine keep other people safe? As far as I've heard you can still get covid 19 and spread it with the vaccine.

 

[FunkMiller]

Its damn near close to 100% effective. Oh, so you, champion of the handful of people who can't take the vaccine. Well, quite frankly, the freedom of all to make their own healthcare decisions over the weak (minuscule) amount of people who cant take the vaccine is just not something I (and most of the electorate) care about. They can wear N-95 masks for the rest of their life. Thankfully, in this country, we aren't heading that way so your authoritative/totalitarianism nonsense guised as "good-intentions" is no more than an after-thought. With that, I will not engage on this any longer. Let this thread get back to normal.

Thanks for so neatly exemplifying my point.

My work here is done.

To the Batmobile!

 

[FunkMiller]

How does taking the vaccine keep other people safe? As far as I've heard you can still get covid 19 and spread it with the vaccine.

You take it to lower the risk.

 

[Raven117]

Thanks for so neatly exemplifying my point.

My work here is done.

To the Batmobile!

I would have told you that from the beginning if it weren't clear. It is silly to literally take away the health choices of millions of people to "hypothetically" protect a small handful of people. Funny you use a superhero gif....what you are proposing is far from it.

Just say what you really want....You don't care about protection of them. You care about obedience. You and your ilk love to hide behind virtue to enact the draconian measures to exercise power.

 

[FunkMiller]

Just say what you really want....You don't care about protection of them. You care about obedience.

What a sad world you must live in to truly believe that others have ulterior, hidden & unpleasant motives all the time.

 

[Taxexemption]

You take it to lower the risk.

Of what, and to whom?

 

[FunkMiller]

Of what, and to whom?

 

[SF Kosmo]

This should not be surprising. If you have any imagination you understand where this is going. It's not about the vaccine it's about a precedent.

It's also just dumb. Like you're galvanizing these people into thinking they're fucking freedom fighters.

 

[Raven117]

What a sad world you must live in to truly believe that others have ulterior, hidden & unpleasant motives all the time.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Taxexemption]

"Like, OMG, don't make me explain my premise. He's still posting? OMG, I can't even. I can't even."

 

[SF Kosmo]

Yeah, they made mistakes that we tried to correct. But the point is mistakes will always continue to be made no matter how perfect you think the system is. So your unshakable faith in what the "experts" are saying right now today is impressive, considering experts have been wrong countless times resulting in real harm to people. In the VAERS system there are just as many permanent disabilities reported as deaths. Most people never think about what that takes away from you until you have some experience of it, it can often lead to suicide as well. Everyone is happy to say it's safe just take it but you're not going to take responsibility for whatever (hopefully) tiny percentage of people's lives are lost or ruined as a result. This is just an ends justify the means argument, that's pretty rocky territory.

Literally zero long-term disabilities have been tied to the Covid vaccines based on VAERS data, and only like three deaths. That's out of like a hundred million people.

Remember not every report in VAERS is actually a vaccine reaction. Any negative ailment a person develops after the vaccine goes in the system, and when they see a higher incidence of a condition among the vaccinated compared to the population at large, then they investigate to see if there's a link. I think some people think VAERS is like literally a list of vaccine reactions, but that's not how it works.

The sheer quantity of data we have on these vaccines is staggering at this point. It is pretty hard to argue the pose a real risk.

 

[DeepBreath87]

There is a difference between being positive about vaccination and thinking they should be compelled via government mandate or pressure. I’m positive about the vaccines. I got them back in January. Probably among the first couple million people in the US. I would encourage people to get them. They seem to work well, especially at keeping people out of the hospital. And they appear to be as safe as anything else we do. It’s probably more risky to get into your car for work in the morning.

But I am 100% against compelling free people to take medicine they don’t consent to taking. It’s a short road from forcing medicine into people’s arms to forcing sterilization or limiting the number of children people can have. And yes, people pushing the mandatory shots will scoff at that. But they’re fools. If we’ve learned anything in the past 18 months, it’s that we should never take things for granted. You should not lightly give your leaders the ability to put a needle in the arms of others against their will or force perfectly healthy people into their homes. These kinds of things should not be allowed without serious consideration for the future ramifications.

 

[pel1300]

I don't know why you guys even bother with the "Everyone HAS to get vaxxed" posters.

They would have been calling you conspiracy theorists a few months ago for saying vaccines would be forced on young ppl.

 

[CloudNull]

No matter what side the coin you fall on about this whole thing we cannot deny the impact of the lockdowns have been devastating. I wonder what the stats for abuse are as well..... a lot of people don't know how to cope besides lashing out. Tons of kids that would escape their parents abuse by going to school were out of school for a whole year. The data coming out of this timeframe is going to be so interesting.

Drug overdose deaths hit highest number ever recorded, CDC data shows | CNN

Drug overdose deaths rose by close to 30% in the US in 2020, hitting the highest number ever recorded, the CDC reported Wednesday.

www.cnn.com

Hmmm. Turns out that the drug overdose increase does not correlate to how strict the states were.... I wonder if it correlates more to job loss and economic hardship?

 

[BadBurger]

Just say what you really want....You don't care about protection of them. You care about obedience. You and your ilk love to hide behind virtue to enact the draconian measures to exercise power.

Yesssss.... *pushes finger tips together as the lights dim* ..... Our sinister plans to save lives and end a pandemic are almost complete! Muhahaha

 

[QSD]

So yeah our government is facing harsh criticism now over it's decision to drop all the restrictions (and being somewhat cavalier about it in their messaging)
Yet only 1-2 months ago to government was under extreme pressure by some social sectors (hospitality business, nightclub owners, festival organisers etc etc) to re-open everything, because numbers were dropping and "we're dying here, we can't cope with these lockdowns any longer"
So although I can be critical of government I also have some sympathy for them because there's just no doing this right, whatever choices you make some people will cry foul.
One question this graph raises for me, and that several other posters have already asked in this thread, is should we really be as interested in #s of infected if a large portion of the population is vaccinated and part of the effectiveness of the vaccines is their ability to reduce the symptoms of an infection to a level that's barely noticeable?

 

[TheFarter]

I wonder what kind of asshole I am. I've had the rona, and don't want to get vaxxed. Not yet. Maybe when I get a bit older. I'll let my antibodies do their thing. One day I'll take the shot if the madness is still going on.

 

[DeepBreath87]

So yeah our government is facing harsh criticism now over it's decision to drop all the restrictions (and being somewhat cavalier about it in their messaging)
Yet only 1-2 months ago to government was under extreme pressure by some social sectors (hospitality business, nightclub owners, festival organisers etc etc) to re-open everything, because numbers were dropping and "we're dying here, we can't cope with these lockdowns any longer"
So although I can be critical of government I also have some sympathy for them because there's just no doing this right, whatever choices you make some people will cry foul.
One question this graph raises for me, and that several other posters have already asked in this thread, is should we really be as interested in #s of infected if a large portion of the population is vaccinated and part of the effectiveness of the vaccines is their ability to reduce the symptoms of an infection to a level that's barely noticeable?

The only questions that matter are hospitalizations and deaths.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[Deleted member 17706]

What? Did something change in regards to Freedom Day on July 19?

 

[Chaplain]

 

[SF Kosmo]

The only questions that matter are hospitalizations and deaths.

Yes. And if the whole population is vaccinated these stay low even when the numbers go up.

Unfortunately if there's still a good number of unvaccinated people, spread among any group will inevitably lead to death and hospitalizations among the unvaccinated. So it can be a bit if a tightrope.

 

[funkygunther]

What? Did something change in regards to Freedom Day on July 19?

No, it's Douglas Murray

 

[DeepBreath87]

What happens if even 15% of the essential workers say “fuck these tests”?

 

[Raven117]

Yesssss.... *pushes finger tips together as the lights dim* ..... Our sinister plans to save lives and end a pandemic are almost complete! Muhahaha

Beware people that tease…..

I know you think what you are doing is virtuous, it isn’t. It’s not about “saving lives” not at this point. It was about fear and control the second it became clear that this was not going to overrun the healthcare system. It was about obedience. I’m not saying they’re not nuisances to that, but to say it was simply about “saving lives” is naive to the fullest.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Beware people that tease…..

I know you think what you are doing is virtuous, it isn’t. It’s not about “saving lives” not at this point. It was about fear and control the second it became clear that this was not going to overrun the healthcare system. It was about obedience. I’m not saying they’re not nuisances to that, but to say it was simply about “saving lives” is naive to the fullest.

Again, it's the deadliest pandemic in a century. Mitigating the pandemic does save lives. Vaccinations do save lives. Quite a lot in this case.

People fixate on the low case death rate as if that means Covid "isn't killing many people," ignoring the fact that it has been like third highest cause of death in the country since the outbreak began.

 

[Shai-Tan]

Again, it's the deadliest pandemic in a century. Mitigating the pandemic does save lives. Vaccinations do save lives. Quite a lot in this case.

People fixate on the low case death rate as if that means Covid "isn't killing many people," ignoring the fact that it has been like third highest cause of death in the country since the outbreak began.

the lines about "obedience" etc make more sense if you read this

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21645515.2018.1480244

 

[Raven117]

Again, it's the deadliest pandemic in a century. Mitigating the pandemic does save lives. Vaccinations do save lives. Quite a lot in this case.

People fixate on the low case death rate as if that means Covid "isn't killing many people," ignoring the fact that it has been like third highest cause of death in the country since the outbreak began.

Percentage wise, it has has killed a lot less people than some of those other pandemics. That death rate is falling like a rock in the US and in other places with higher vaccinations rate. This isn’t April 2020.

yeah? So what? We have the vaccine now. That’s the only point that matters. The government can’t save you or protect you.

I don’t really know what the point is right now, other than to say that I do not believe that vaccines should be mandatory but should be highly encouraged.

 

[BarringGaffner]

No, it's Douglas Murray

It’s almost like he forgot to ‘search>replace all ‘Covid’ with whatever the latest culture war outrage is. But it’ll get clicks all the same.

 

[FunkMiller]

Beware people that tease…..

I know you think what you are doing is virtuous, it isn’t. It’s not about “saving lives” not at this point. It was about fear and control the second it became clear that this was not going to overrun the healthcare system. It was about obedience. I’m not saying they’re not nuisances to that, but to say it was simply about “saving lives” is naive to the fullest.

 

[FunkMiller]

A great example here, of why you shouldn’t just mindlessly quote stuff you see on Twitter. Douglas Murray is famous in the U.K for these kind of baseless, click bait articles.

The U.K is virtually completely out of government mandated lockdown now, and will be completely on Monday.

 

[QSD]

the lines about "obedience" etc make more sense if you read this

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21645515.2018.1480244

Reading this what comes to mind is that a lot of 'regular' vaccine scepticism seems temperamentally/emotionally driven rather than being based on some rational deliberation process, so I wonder what effect the suggested interventions (better education) are actually going to have. I would maintain though that current scepticism is a special case, just as the whole covid19 situation is exceptional, and thus you can only generalize from the results of this study to a very limited degree. I think there are a lot of people (myself included) that express some degree of skepticism that normally never question the tried-and-tested vaccination programs that are upheld.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Percentage wise, it has has killed a lot less people than some of those other pandemics.

In terms of percentage of the population killed, it is the worst pandemic in centuries and one of the worst ever.

In terms of percentage of positive tests, it doesn't look so bad, but it's one of the most contagious diseases in human history, and you can't simply ignore that to make it seem like those deaths don't count.

That death rate is falling like a rock in the US and in other places with higher vaccinations rate. This isn’t April 2020.

Look, in the US where good vaccines are widely available for free, dying of Covid is a mostly choice, it's true.

But it doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about the people who are making the (in my opinion) reckless choice.

 

[DeepBreath87]

In terms of percentage of the population killed, it is the worst pandemic in centuries and one of the worst ever.

In terms of percentage of positive tests, it doesn't look so bad, but it's one of the most contagious diseases in human history, and you can't simply ignore that to make it seem like those deaths don't count.


Look, in the US where good vaccines are widely available for free, dying of Covid is a mostly choice, it's true.

But it doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about the people who are making the (in my opinion) reckless choice.

Depends what you mean by worry about them. If by worry about them, you mean force needles into their arms either under some misguided sense of “greater good” or some self aggrandizing notion of doing what’s best for them, then no, I don’t think we should worry about them.

If you mean making life very uncomfortable for them in order to compel them to get the shot via government pressure either directly or by government pressure on corporations, I’d again say no, we should not do that.

If you mean encouraging them to get the shots, particularly those at higher risk, and making the shots easy to get, I’m all for that. I think the door-to-door stuff is stupid. But they could have the people administering the shots go the the homes of people that request them, now that demand has fallen quite a bit. More of a delivery service and less of a door-to-door, Jehovah’s Witness thing.

 

[Raven117]

But it doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about the people who are making the (in my opinion) reckless choice.

Here is the crux of it.

People are free to make reckless choices. We allow it all the time. Smoking. Drinking, BASE jumping, all not the best ideas but people are free to make their own choices.

Im not saying there shouldn’t be a push to get people vaccinated, but any mandate or overly aggressive push (like door to door) at this point is simply ridiculous.

You keep saying “deadliest pandemic in a century.” You aren’t wrong, but that’s not saying much. We have not had many pandemics. That’s just not a reason when looking at the death rate percentage to completely supplant freedom.

 

[b0d]

Anyone knowing Portuguese ?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

A great example here, of why you shouldn’t just mindlessly quote stuff you see on Twitter. Douglas Murray is famous in the U.K for these kind of baseless, click bait articles.

The U.K is virtually completely out of government mandated lockdown now, and will be completely on Monday.

I couldn't read the article because of a paywall, but did he make any points to back up his headline?

I've rather enjoyed some of Douglas Murray's work in the past, but haven't seen much from him recently.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Here is the crux of it.

People are free to make reckless choices. We allow it all the time. Smoking. Drinking, BASE jumping, all not the best ideas but people are free to make their own choices.

Im not saying there shouldn’t be a push to get people vaccinated, but any mandate or overly aggressive push (like door to door) at this point is simply ridiculous.

You keep saying “deadliest pandemic in a century.” You aren’t wrong, but that’s not saying much. We have not had many pandemics. That’s just not a reason when looking at the death rate percentage to completely supplant freedom.

Not all unvaccinated people are the same.

I saw an article yesterday listing the most unvaccinated towns in NJ (which has a very high vaccination rate overall) and what was most interesting to me about it was that thw top towns were all undervaccinated for very different reasons.

I won't link it because the demographics of NJ towns are not something that would be obvious to someone who isn't local but it broke down like this.

#1 was a town with a heavily Orthodox Jewish population. These people are not necessarily anti-vax, but they're very isolated from the outside world, and one of the communities hit hardest by Covid so many of them feel "I already got it, so I am fine."

#2 was a was a poor, mostly white rural area in the PA border. People who might skew more conservative but also people who have less access to healthcare.

#3 was an urban area withe the state's largest Latino population. Mostly Mexican and Central American immigrants, many of them undocumented. Not people who like to give the government their details. And people who often forego healthcare for the same reason.

Below that were several low income urban areas that were mostly black. A lot of them would get vaccinated but either haven't gotten around to it or don't really know where to go. Again people who often don't see a doctor unless they have to.

Outreach is not going to get through to those people who feel actively threatened by vaccines but there are a LOT of other people out there who are willing to get vaccinated but simply haven't yet.

 

[Chaplain]

Edited

 

[Guileless]

 

[funkygunther]

I couldn't read the article because of a paywall, but did he make any points to back up his headline?

I've rather enjoyed some of Douglas Murray's work in the past, but haven't seen much from him recently.

his points are that local authorities and private companies have the freedom from the government to say whether they want their customers to wear masks or prove they've been vaccinated

two short planks with a posh accent, don't buy into it

 

[BadBurger]

Here is the crux of it.

People are free to make reckless choices. We allow it all the time. Smoking. Drinking, BASE jumping, all not the best ideas but people are free to make their own choices.

Im not saying there shouldn’t be a push to get people vaccinated, but any mandate or overly aggressive push (like door to door) at this point is simply ridiculous.

You keep saying “deadliest pandemic in a century.” You aren’t wrong, but that’s not saying much. We have not had many pandemics. That’s just not a reason when looking at the death rate percentage to completely supplant freedom.

This is about the public health and safety of everyone; a person who base jumps doesn't take off the parachute, walk around downtown, and cause others to spontaneously base jump as well.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

This is about the public health and safety of everyone

You can use this to justify anything, to be honest. It's a very dangerous path.

his points are that local authorities and private companies have the freedom from the government to say whether they want their customers to wear masks or prove they've been vaccinated

two short planks with a posh accent, don't buy into it

If that's all it is, then that's a pretty dumb point. If private businesses want to enforce their own restrictions, then they should have the freedom to do so.

 

[Raven117]

This is about the public health and safety of everyone; a person who base jumps doesn't take off the parachute, walk around downtown, and cause others to spontaneously base jump as well.

Yeah, and drinking and smoking sure as hell can cause wider spread use.

"Public Health and Safety of Everyone"....well, I know this upsets you, but people can choose what is best for them. As Zefah said, this is a dangerous path to choose what is best for your brother without their consent. With the vaccine, everyone is making a choice. (I'm not saying things cant be highly encourage and there being an outreach like to some of the groups described by SF Cosmo, but to mandate it...especially at this point...is absolutely government overreach given the statistics).

You don't care about the "Safety of Everyone." You care about those people doing what they are told because you deem it in the safety of everyone. Deep down, in a place you don't post on the internet about...you want to be able to tell those "crazy republicans" do to this, because you want them to be forced to do it.

 

[BadBurger]

You don't care about the "Safety of Everyone." You care about those people doing what they are told because you deem it in the safety of everyone. Deep down, in a place you don't post on the internet about...you want to be able to tell those "crazy republicans" do to this, because you want them to be forced to do it.

Why do you keep telling others how they feel and what their motivations are? You sound like a conspiracy theorist - you exhibit the common traits (paranoia, arbitrarily ascribing motivations onto others where none exist in order to reinforce your delusions, etc).

This comic was made in the 1930's. It's still, sadly, apt today and for this conversation:

Edit: BTW, it's telling that you made it political where none existed. It reveals what's behind your motivations