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[Belgorim]

I'd say that a more charitable reading of the argument "it's not political" is that it isn't political issue in the US sense of an issue that falls neatly into republican/democrat camps. I think you will find people of different political leanings on all sides of the vaccine issue. I think of myself as moderately left wing but find myself aligning more with you and @Zefah, TheDreadBaron etc etc on this issue because I feel an intuitive revulsion to pushing medical treatments on people and am (like you) not very trusting when it comes to the information we're getting out of government and (especially) big pharma.

It is hard everywhere to assign things as political or not. Especially since opposition seldom wants to agree with current government.
If there is anyone that wants tight control (and masks etc.) here in Sweden it is the right wing.

Seems to be a big no to vaccinating kids needlessly and forcing vaccinations on anyone at least from all parties.

 

[xellos2099alpha]

Can you still get and spread covid 19 after being vaccinated?

yes, just very less likely but it is 100% possible.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

CA is next...

It worked so well last year, why wouldn't they repeat it?

 

[SF Kosmo]

Fauci lied. Why wouldn't he and big pharma lie about the safety and efficacy of the vaccine? Why do the vaccine manufacturers get legal protections against lawsuits for damage done by the vaccine?

Again, you say this like it's an upcoming thing. You don't have to take Fauci's word for it, these vaccines are in the wild in a hundred nations around the world and the volumes of data from every source imaginable, private, public, you name it. Vaccines have massively reduced spread and severity of the disease, and there haven't been any reports of widespread health concerns from vaccine reactions.

We can argue till we're blue in the face about predictions, but we are living in a post vaccine world now, and these things aren't unknowns anymore.

 

[ManaByte]

 

[vpance]

 

[CloudNull]

They are really bringing masks back? Even for fully vaccinated people? This cannot be reality.

 

[SF Kosmo]

They are really bringing masks back? Even for fully vaccinated people? This cannot be reality.

Dumb, but masks aren't that consequential in the end. I would be far more concerned if they were trying to reinstate distancing measures or shut downs that would cripple people's livelihoods.

We did all this shit because we were trying to get to the vaccine. Now we're here, and anyone that wants it pretty much has it or can get it freely, and that means this is just life now and we gotta figure out how to live it.

Masks don't really hurt anything so I can't wring my hands too much about that, but we really need to make sure schools are opened up nationwide this fall, and businesses can operate normally.

 

[Raven117]

I'd say that a more charitable reading of the argument "it's not political" is that it isn't political issue in the US sense of an issue that falls neatly into republican/democrat camps. I think you will find people of different political leanings on all sides of the vaccine issue. I think of myself as moderately left wing but find myself aligning more with you and @Zefah, TheDreadBaron etc etc on this issue because I feel an intuitive revulsion to pushing medical treatments on people and am (like you) not very trusting when it comes to the information we're getting out of government and (especially) big pharma.

This makes alot of sense.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

This is really quite incredible. The UK is currently on track to having more daily symptomatic COVID cases among the vaccinated than among the completely unvaccinated.

Complacency could condemn thousands more to long COVID

According to ZOE COVID Study incidence figures, it is estimated that among unvaccinated people in the UK there are currently 22,638 new daily symptomatic cases of COVID on average, based on PCR test data from up to five days ago.

covid.joinzoe.com

Seems like the same thing is happening in Israel:

COVID-19 Outbreak in Israel, Fully Vaccinated Individuals Make Up 50% of Infected Adults - Vision Times

The latest wave of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) infections in Israel has raised concerns, given that the nation is one of the most vaccinated countries

www.visiontimes.com

 

[ManaByte]

I would be far more concerned if they were trying to reinstate distancing measures or shut downs that would cripple people's livelihoods.

That's coming back to CA on September 15th.

 

[CloudNull]

Dumb, but masks aren't that consequential in the end. I would be far more concerned if they were trying to reinstate distancing measures or shut downs that would cripple people's livelihoods.

We did all this shit because we were trying to get to the vaccine. Now we're here, and anyone that wants it pretty much has it or can get it freely, and that means this is just life now and we gotta figure out how to live it.

Masks don't really hurt anything so I can't wring my hands too much about that, but we really need to make sure schools are opened up nationwide this fall, and businesses can operate normally.

Its not just the mask mandate but the state disregarding what the CDC says. Also, why get the vaccine if you still have to do everything that non vax have to do? And why wait 3 days? Why not do it now?

Truly is a clown world.

 

[DeepBreath87]

They are really bringing masks back? Even for fully vaccinated people? This cannot be reality.

Cause you know the masks definitely made a huge difference over this past year. Huge. Just look at the case numbers during the mask mandates…… oh.

 

[Chaplain]

Signs that lockdowns will be returning in the next few weeks:

 

[ManaByte]

Signs that lockdowns will be returning in the next few weeks:

If they try to lock down a state that's close to 60% vaccinated they'll have riots.

 

[QSD]

They are really bringing masks back? Even for fully vaccinated people? This cannot be reality.

Dumb, but masks aren't that consequential in the end. I would be far more concerned if they were trying to reinstate distancing measures or shut downs that would cripple people's livelihoods.

We did all this shit because we were trying to get to the vaccine. Now we're here, and anyone that wants it pretty much has it or can get it freely, and that means this is just life now and we gotta figure out how to live it.

Masks don't really hurt anything so I can't wring my hands too much about that, but we really need to make sure schools are opened up nationwide this fall, and businesses can operate normally.

Here in The Netherlands, I'm being required to wear a mask again at work by the company I work for, even though almost everyone is fully vaxxed. It's actually a stricter policy coming from them than the government.

The Dutch government closed down all nightclubs and concert venues again, just a month after reopening them, because of a big spike in infections. There was one festival that was implicated in more than 900 infections, while admission was either with a negative test or a 'vaxx passport'. There was a lot of tampering with the admission system. But still, 900 infected? I thought this thing didn't spread in the open air...? I continually wonder about the accuracy of the tests and the numbers I'm hearing. (or the actual effectiveness of the various vaccinations)

 

[SF Kosmo]

Here in The Netherlands, I'm being required to wear a mask again at work by the company I work for, even though almost everyone is fully vaxxed. It's actually a stricter policy coming from them than the government.

The Dutch government closed down all nightclubs and concert venues again, just a month after reopening them, because of a big spike in infections. There was one festival that was implicated in more than 900 infections, while admission was either with a negative test or a 'vaxx passport'. There was a lot of tampering with the admission system. But still, 900 infected? I thought this thing didn't spread in the open air...? I continually wonder about the accuracy of the tests and the numbers I'm hearing. (or the actual effectiveness of the various vaccinations)

I don't think Netherlands is quite as far along in their vaccination effort as the US, but even then their deaths and hospitalizations seem to be near zero.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I don't think Netherlands is quite as far along in their vaccination effort as the US, but even then their deaths and hospitalizations seem to be near zero.

Their deaths are exactly the same as they were this time last year (well 7-day daily average of 2 on July 14, 2021 vs 1 on July 14, 2020). Their case numbers are very different, though (7-day daily average of 8,378 vs. 65). Still, everything we've seen thus far indicates that the Delta variant is far less deadly or prone to inflicting severe illness, so we will soon see if that pans out in the Netherlands as well.

 

[QSD]

I don't think Netherlands is quite as far along in their vaccination effort as the US, but even then their deaths and hospitalizations seem to be near zero.

Yeah basically I get the impression the government are just winging it and responding to social outcry after the infections started rising precipitously. Now the news cycle has moved on with a celebrity death and the Rhineland basically turning into an open air swimming pool overnight. It will unfortunately be a while before anyone questions the sanity of the Covid policy.

I'm still baffled by the festival hyperspread event though, how the hell did that happen?

 

[FullMetalx117]

Man I hope we don’t go into another lockdown or have major restrictions again. My trip to Spain recently wasn’t nearly as enjoyable because of COVID.

Also people should just get vaccinated even if it helps a little bit. It really isn’t a big deal, like taking an Advil or putting on deodorant (yes I know antis for these exist too)

 

[Raven117]

If they try to lock down a state that's close to 60% vaccinated they'll have riots.

You will take the lockdown and enjoy it, peasant. You see, even while you are vaccinated, you may have a few coughs, so it’s for your own good. I’m going to keep on doing what I want though. This is for your own good because you can’t make decisions for yourself. Also, I’m going to make sure you can’t talk about it in Facebook or sms. Because it’s against public health.

 

[BouncyFrag]

You will take the lockdown and enjoy it, peasant. You see, even while you are vaccinated, you may have a few coughs, so it’s for your own good. I’m going to keep on doing what I want though. This is for your own good because you can’t make decisions for yourself. Also, I’m going to make sure you can’t talk about it in Facebook or sms. Because it’s against public health.

We can trust our leaders. They are true professionals...

 

[Nobody_Important]

They are really bringing masks back? Even for fully vaccinated people? This cannot be reality.

Someone hasn't been paying attention I guess.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Someone hasn't been paying attention I guess.

Oh we are paying attention. Better than you apparently. I was paying attention back when the concern was solely about preserving hospital capacity. The idea that a state with a +60% vaccination rate would be worried about hospital capacity with regards to covid is anti scientific.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Oh we are paying attention. Better than you apparently. I was paying attention back when the concern was solely about preserving hospital capacity. The idea that a state with a +60% vaccination rate would be worried about hospital capacity with regards to covid is anti scientific.

That has nothing to do with what was said so your little rant is wasted.

It was about some places bringing masks back even for people who have been vaccinated. We already know why that is happening and it has been explained at length. So if you acting surprised about it it means that you are either being disingenuous or you haven't been paying attention.


This isn't hard.

 

[DeepBreath87]

That has nothing to do with what was said so your little rant is wasted.

It was about some places bringing masks back even for people who have been vaccinated. We already know why that is happening and it has been explained at length. So if you acting surprised about it it means that you are either being disingenuous or you haven't been paying attention.


This isn't hard.

Oh? Why are masks being brought back, smart guy?

 

[Nobody_Important]

Oh? Why are masks being brought back, smart guy?

You have the whole internet at your fingertips and with it access to dozens of articles that covered that exact topic. You don't need a stranger on the internet to tell you what to think.


Plus I know you well enough by now to know that you are smart enough to know the answer to it yourself. The fact that you are asking me either means you don't believe the official story or you just want to go in circles for the lulz.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Gotta say, man, I really wish you'd stop with the bait and bail tactics.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Gotta say, man, I really wish you'd stop with the bait and bail tactics.

In order for me to bait and bail as you put it that means I would have to claim something that doesn't already have an explanation somewhere in the thread and then disappear into the night.


We have seen numerous articles regarding the Delta variant and the infection rate amongst vaccinated people for several pages now. And we have also had several articles discussing renewed masks and lockdowns in various areas of the world. So it is not a "bait and bail" as you put it so much as me not wanting to waste my time copy and pasting things that have already been said by other people.


Don't like the masks? Say so.


Don't agree with enforcing masks on vaccinated people? Say so.



But don't pretend to just have no earthly idea as to why such a thing might be required in certain areas when it has been repeatedly explained and even debated for several pages now. Come on. We are past this level of "discussion" here.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

In order for me to bait and bail as you put it that means I would have to claim something that doesn't already have an explanation somewhere in the thread and then disappear into the night.


We have seen numerous articles regarding the Delta variant and the infection rate amongst vaccinated people for several pages now. And we have also had several articles discussing renewed masks and lockdowns in various areas of the world. So it is not a "bait and bail" as you put it so much as me not wanting to waste my time copy and pasting things that have already been said by other people.


Don't like the masks? Say so.


Don't agree with enforcing masks on vaccinated people? Say so.



But don't pretend to just have no earthly idea as to why such a thing might be required in certain areas when it has been repeatedly explained and even debated for several pages now. Come on. We are past this level of "discussion" here.

So you demand that other people to clearly state what they mean, but think it's OK to skate on by with vague shit like "Someone hasn't been paying attention I guess." OK. I'll stop belaboring this with you, because each time it's just a great derail.

Anyway, not sure why you are under the impression that CloudNull or anyone else is unaware of the official line. It seemed pretty clear to me that he was just expressing his exasperation that they would actually go through with such an insane measure.

 

[BarringGaffner]

Signs that lockdowns will be returning in the next few weeks:

 

[Nobody_Important]

So you demand that other people to clearly state what they mean, but think it's OK to skate on by with vague shit like "Someone hasn't been paying attention I guess."

Also, not sure why you are under the impression that CloudNull or anyone else is not aware of the official line. It seemed pretty clear to me that he was just exasperated that they would actually go through with it.

Why wouldn't they go through with it? Even if you are one of the people who believes that vaccinated people should not need to wear masks to protect themselves you should at least be smart enough to understand why it might end up still being required in the first place.


Let's say the state of WhereverTheHell decided that they were going to implement a mask mandate, but they limited it to only the people who have not been vaccinated yet in order to save their citizens from the horror of wearing masks inside Walmart or their local grocery store. That would be completely and utterly unenforceable by every objective measure. Because each and every selfish person who is not vaccinated but also does not want to wear a mask would simply just not wear a mask but then claim to be vaccinated because they know that there is no conceivable way to prove they are not vaccinated on the fly and most of the authorities that would be enforcing this would not want to waste time trying to verify it in the first place. So what you end up with is a "mandate" that is actually only being followed by a fraction of the population that actually should be following it. So basically a completely wasted effort to try and help people.


Compare that to a mandate that requires everyone to wear a mask regardless of whether or not they have been vaccinated. This now becomes much easier to enforce because everyone is required regardless of vaccination status. Now no one can skirt the rules by simply pretending to be vaccinated no matter how petulant or deceptive they wanna be about it.


Two almost identical mandate situations but with vastly different outcomes due to the requirements involved. And this is just one example of why vaccinated people might be required to wear masks in some places. So once again I say that there is no reason why anyone who has been paying attention should be pretending to be shocked at the idea that people who are already vaccinated might be asked to wear a mask anyway in some places.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

So you demand that other people to clearly state what they mean, but think it's OK to skate on by with vague shit like "Someone hasn't been paying attention I guess." OK. I'll stop belaboring this with you, because each time it's just a great derail.

Anyway, not sure why you are under the impression that CloudNull or anyone else is unaware of the official line. It seemed pretty clear to me that he was just expressing his exasperation that they would actually go through with such an insane measure.

It really seems to conflict with the official messaging that the vaccine is super effective and your only real protection, jk y’all need masks too because…the vaccine doesn’t work to prevent the spread?

 

[DeepBreath87]

In order for me to bait and bail as you put it that means I would have to claim something that doesn't already have an explanation somewhere in the thread and then disappear into the night.


We have seen numerous articles regarding the Delta variant and the infection rate amongst vaccinated people for several pages now. And we have also had several articles discussing renewed masks and lockdowns in various areas of the world. So it is not a "bait and bail" as you put it so much as me not wanting to waste my time copy and pasting things that have already been said by other people.


Don't like the masks? Say so.


Don't agree with enforcing masks on vaccinated people? Say so.



But don't pretend to just have no earthly idea as to why such a thing might be required in certain areas when it has been repeatedly explained and even debated for several pages now. Come on. We are past this level of "discussion" here.

You’ve spent three posts talking in circles. But you don’t want to waste your time…
You really are a smart guy.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Why wouldn't they go through with it? Even if you are one of the people who believes that vaccinated people should not need to wear masks to protect themselves you should at least be smart enough to understand why it might end up still being required in the first place.

Let's say the state of WhereverTheHell decided that they were going to implement a mask mandate, but they limited it to only the people who have not been vaccinated yet in order to save their citizens from the horror of wearing masks inside Walmart or their local grocery store. That would be completely and utterly unenforceable by every objective measure. Because each and every selfish person who is not vaccinated but also does not want to wear a mask would simply just not wear a mask but then claim to be vaccinated because they know that there is no conceivable way to prove they are not vaccinated on the fly and most of the authorities that would be enforcing this would not want to waste time trying to verify it in the first place. So what you end up with is a "mandate" that is actually only being followed by a fraction of the population that actually should be following it. So basically a completely wasted effort to try and help people.

Compare that to a mandate that requires everyone to wear a mask regardless of whether or not they have been vaccinated. This now becomes much easier to enforce because everyone is required regardless of vaccination status. Now no one can skirt the rules by simply pretending to be vaccinated no matter how petulant or deceptive they wanna be about it.

Two almost identical mandate situations but with vastly different outcomes due to the requirements involved. And this is just one example of why vaccinated people might be required to wear masks in some places.

You'd think that officials who hold such views would never lift their mask mandates in the first place. Ever. Can't be too safe and can't trust people to manage their own affairs.

Anyway, the new thread rules do not allow for discussion on mask efficacy and I think we've already skirted them a few times, so I wish smug folks like yourself would stop openly speaking about them as if t hey are infallible infection control tools when no one is allowed to argue anything in opposition.

 

[Pol Pot]

In order for me to bait and bail as you put it that means I would have to claim something that doesn't already have an explanation somewhere in the thread and then disappear into the night.


We have seen numerous articles regarding the Delta variant and the infection rate amongst vaccinated people for several pages now. And we have also had several articles discussing renewed masks and lockdowns in various areas of the world. So it is not a "bait and bail" as you put it so much as me not wanting to waste my time copy and pasting things that have already been said by other people.


Don't like the masks? Say so.


Don't agree with enforcing masks on vaccinated people? Say so.



But don't pretend to just have no earthly idea as to why such a thing might be required in certain areas when it has been repeatedly explained and even debated for several pages now. Come on. We are past this level of "discussion" here.

Gotta say, man, I really wish you'd stop calling these people smart.

 

[Nobody_Important]

You’ve spent three posts talking in circles. But you don’t want to waste your time…
You really are a smart guy.

I just posted a very short and sweet example of what I meant above. Feel free to comment on it if you want.


Also I am always up for a debate or discussion on most topics I just don't like repeating myself or repeating what others have already said or linked. Retracing over old ground is the easiest way to get locked into a circular argument.

 

[FullMetalx117]

It really seems to conflict with the official messaging that the vaccine is super effective and your only real protection, jk y’all need masks too because…the vaccine doesn’t work to prevent the spread?

Makes a lot of sense. The mask mandate is to help out the people who are not vaccinated for whatever reason. A person who is fully vaccinated can definitely catch COVID, although less likely, and even if the person does he/she will have less severe symptoms or be asymptomatic. The vaccinated person can be contagious and spread it to others - it’s a problem at the moment because delta variant is easily transmissible and will probably go through most of the population. I guess the vaccinated are obligated to help out the unvaccinated by wearing a mask to prevent spread since their symptoms are likely to be more severe. It’s not gonna work and I doubt unvaccinated want the help anyway

 

[ManaByte]

 

[BadBurger]

Cause you know the masks definitely made a huge difference over this past year. Huge. Just look at the case numbers during the mask mandates…… oh.

It would have been worse without masking, social distancing, and improved hygienics. One way to observe their positive impact is to look at how they greatly reduced annual flu cases - seasonal influenza was nearly wiped out in 2020.

 

[BarringGaffner]

Makes a lot of sense. The mask mandate is to help out the people who are not vaccinated for whatever reason. A person who is fully vaccinated can definitely catch COVID, although less likely, and even if the person does he/she will have less severe symptoms or be asymptomatic. The vaccinated person can be contagious and spread it to others - it’s a problem at the moment because delta variant is easily transmissible and will probably go through most of the population. I guess the vaccinated are obligated to help out the unvaccinated by wearing a mask to prevent spread since their symptoms are likely to be more severe. It’s not gonna work and I doubt unvaccinated want the help anyway

The selfish cowards can’t even comprehend the idea that others that aren’t at risk would still sacrifice even a small amount with a mask in indoor spaces in order to protect others that chose not to get vaccinated. They can’t seem to understand if they get sick and hospitalized it won’t only effect them.

 

[12Goblins]

Covid: WHO urges China to co-operate better in virus origin probe

The head of the WHO called for more transparency in the investigation into the origins of Covid.

www.bbc.com

 

[Deleted member 17706]

It would have been worse without masking, social distancing, and improved hygienics. One way to observe their positive impact is to look at how they greatly reduced annual flu cases - seasonal influenza was nearly wiped out in 2020.

The flu was eradicated wherever COVID spread, regardless of interventions or lack thereof, much less the state of hygiene. It would be hard to draw any other conclusion than that COVID simply out competed influenza last year and prevented it from getting a foot hold, just like how the Delta variant is now out competing and eradicating all other variants of COVID-19 wherever it spreads.

 

[DeepBreath87]

The selfish cowards can’t even comprehend the idea that others that aren’t at risk would still sacrifice even a small amount with a mask in indoor spaces in order to protect others that chose not to get vaccinated. They can’t seem to understand if they get sick and hospitalized it won’t only effect them.

Yeah. We don’t need to rehash the mask nonsense. I believe that’s the point of the new thread. Needless to say, we disagree. Best to move on.

 

[BarringGaffner]

The flu was eradicated wherever COVID spread, regardless of interventions or lack thereof, much less the state of hygiene. It would be hard to draw any other conclusion than that COVID simply out competed influenza last year and prevented it from getting a foot hold, just like how the Delta variant is now out competing and eradicating all other variants of COVID-19 wherever it spreads.

I haven’t seen that as the only conclusion by any researchers. There is data showing competing, but also data showing you can be infected with both, and that having multiple respiratory viruses.

From what I have seen from research it’s social distancing, masks, but likely most important is the travel restrictions across winters.

 

[BarringGaffner]

Yeah. We don’t need to rehash the mask nonsense. I believe that’s the point of the new thread. Needless to say, we disagree. Best to move on.

I wasn’t making a point about efficacy of masks, but about making sacrifices for others even though they wouldn’t do the same for you.

 

[GeekyDad]

Yikes. Stepped in thread out of curiosity. Nevermind...

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

We’re back to curfew.



I hate this shit. They should have nuked wuhan in ‘19

 

[Toots]

Dumb, but masks aren't that consequential in the end

I don't like it when government forces me do dumb stuff, makes me think it believes i'm dumb...
I don't think you should take so lightly your officials thinking you're dumb. I mean if you really were dumb would you have voted them in? (that's crazy when you think about it. They know exactly how dumb you are, because you always are just dumb enough to vote them in)

If it was only dumb and inconsequential i could do with, but it never stop there...

In France, we have an ex police secretary of state who just said, about the autoritarian turn our stupid ass president macron has taken, that "french people wanted to be pressured". That dumb as rock motherlover... Such irresponsibility, it's like he wants us to take the streets and whoop his goddam ass.

When officials, elected or not, become so cynical and jaded they can lie to your face, force on you useless or straight up dumb policies, and tell you you're gonna like it, it's a recipe for disaster.

 

[SF Kosmo]

The flu was eradicated wherever COVID spread, regardless of interventions or lack thereof, much less the state of hygiene. It would be hard to draw any other conclusion than that COVID simply out competed influenza last year and prevented it from getting a foot hold, just like how the Delta variant is now out competing and eradicating all other variants of COVID-19 wherever it spreads.

The obvious conclusion from my view is that the mitigation factors to reduce the spread of Coivd (masks, distancing, less time in public in general) were even more effective against less contagious illnesses like flus and adenoviruses, not anything to do with "out competing" them.

Out competing isn't really a thing for diseases that don't have some kind of shared immunity the way variants of Covid do.