Support NeoGAF

[FunkMiller]

It is very clear to me that you cannot directly compare the avoidable causes of death mentioned with COVID-19. But it shows very well how many selfish people suddenly become "compassionate" as soon as it affects their own lives or as soon as they feel can somehow morally superior without having to do anything for it. This is not meant to be an excuse for anti-vaxxers, because there are indeed a lot of idiots. But just because there are a lot of idiots doesn't mean that everyone is one when they don't agree with you.

Where are you getting the impression that anyone in this thread is attempting to feel morally superior to anyone other than the anti-vaxxers?

There are valid reasons to not take the vaccine. There are valid concerns when it comes to some of the messaging used by governments around the vaccines. There are valid arguments around the transparency of pharmaceutical companies (especially in a country like the USA with its third world healthcare system).

There are no valid reasons to mistrust the data that exists about the vaccine's efficiency and safety.

There are no valid arguments for being anti-vax. We should all happily feel superior to these cheese grinders - as much as we do towards flat earthers, or Q Anon conspiracy nuts. They are all cut from the same stupid cloth - and if someone rolls up here trying to defend them, I think we should all lambast them thoroughly for it.

 

[ManaByte]

There are no valid arguments for being anti-vax. We should all happily feel superior to these cheese grinders - as much as we do towards flat earthers, or Q Anon conspiracy nuts. They are all cut from the same stupid cloth - and if someone rolls up here trying to defend them, I think we should all lambast them thoroughly for it.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Where are you getting the impression that anyone in this thread is attempting to feel morally superior to anyone other than the anti-vaxxers?

There are valid reasons to not take the vaccine. There are valid concerns when it comes to some of the messaging used by governments around the vaccines. There are valid arguments around the transparency of pharmaceutical companies (especially in a country like the USA with its third world healthcare system).

There are no valid reasons to mistrust the data that exists about the vaccine's efficiency and safety.

There are no valid arguments for being anti-vax. We should all happily feel superior to these cheese grinders - as much as we do towards flat earthers, or Q Anon conspiracy nuts. They are all cut from the same stupid cloth - and if someone rolls up here trying to defend them, I think we should all lambast them thoroughly for it.

Where are all these anti-vaxxers you're talking about? I haven't been following the entire thread, could you point out some of them?

 

[ManaByte]

Where are all these anti-vaxxers you're talking about? I haven't been following the entire thread, could you point out some of them?

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

Where are all these anti-vaxxers you're talking about? I haven't been following the entire thread, could you point out some of them?

ban list.

 

[Toons]

Th fat people comparison is soooo ridiculous lmao I cannot believe that's what people are going with lmao

Because its clearly not even about the cause of WHY you're in the hospital. The guy in the video laid it bare.

If you dont trust the health workers when you aren't sick, don't trust their recommendations because of whatever reason you come up with, then why do you magically start trusting them to help you get better once you actually get sick?

 

[caffeware]

Some are calling this a "crisis actor".

 

[FunkMiller]

If you dont trust the health workers when you aren't sick, don't trust their recommendations because of whatever reason you come up with, then why do you magically start trusting them to help you get better once you actually get sick?

Because there aren't videos on social media telling them that Covid treatment is dangerous or fake.

It's as simple as that.

A lot of the anti-vax nonsense comes from lonely, socially awkward people who just want someone to pay attention to them. They are generally weak of mind, weak of personality, and weak of constitution. And like attracts like. These people are scared of taking a vaccine, but instead of being brave enough to admit that, they try to claim that everyone needs to be afraid of it, because it's dangerous. Pretty bog standard human psychology stuff, really. Easier to pretend something else has short comings, that acknowledge and deal with your own.

And none of it would matter, if it wasn't stopping other people getting life saving medical treatment. I'm just fucking glad I'm in the UK, where vaccine hesitancy is low, and our NHS isn't being overwhelmed. We're still heavily delayed on elective treatments, and minor stuff, but the really sick are getting the help they need by all accounts. That's the power of the vaccine, and why we're all taking them. Those of us who aren't scared little people on the internet, that is.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

We should all happily feel superior to these cheese grinders - as much as we do towards flat earthers, or Q Anon conspiracy nuts. They are all cut from the same stupid cloth...

Or...fostering feelings of superiority over other humans is bad and we should instead foster feelings of grace and humility with those we disagree with. Just an idea.

 

[thefool]

Beyond the discussion of what kind of bad behaviors should the government be responsible for health wise (which is a pretty interesting discussion tbh but not as it has been formulated), obesity is a covid19 risk factor, namely for people under 65, and everyone who is fat should be alerted by that.

 

[ManaByte]

Some are calling this a "crisis actor".

Before or after they eat a Tide Pod?

 

[FunkMiller]

Or...fostering feelings of superiority over other humans is bad and we should instead foster feelings of grace and humility with those we disagree with. Just an idea.

Only someone who is an anti-vaxxer, or sympathises with the opinions and position of anti-vaxxers, would write something like that.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Complete vaccination followed by a period of allowing the virus to propagate to fill in the remaining gaps in herd immunity probably could end it (until the next variant). In the UK at least that seems to be the approach.

It's funny because if you walked up to any of these anti-vaxxers and said "I have a needle with the vaccine and a needle with Covid, which are you picking?" I doubt many would pick Covid. And yet that dichotomy does seem to be the exact choice at play...

Eventually all of us are going to be exposed to Covid, and you'll either be vaccinated or you won't.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Only someone who is an anti-vaxxer, or sympathises with the opinions and position of anti-vaxxers, would write something like that.

Throw me in gulag.

 

[FunkMiller]

Throw me in gulag.

Informative post.

 

[Punished Miku]

Or...fostering feelings of superiority over other humans is bad and we should instead foster feelings of grace and humility with those we disagree with. Just an idea.

What I see play out with people that are anti-vaxxers that get seriously ill is that almost all of them feel regret, and then try to speak to the people that still haven't gotten it and urge them to get it. That seems obvious, but when you think about it - it's kind of heartening news for me. It means that these are typically good people who care about other people on a basic level. They're in a rough spot in the hospital, and most seem to immediately change their mind and try to convince complete strangers to get it. Once they realize that there is actual real danger, and that the preventative solution is so easy, they feel compelled to tell people.

It really shows you how deep the disinformation really goes. These are people that do care about others, and themselves, but just LITERALLY don't think that the information on COVID or the vaccine is true. Pretty crazy.

I think a lot of people have tried the empathy route and tried to explain things to people they disagree with in ways that will resonate. I think we could do with a little more empathy from the anti-vax side though, since apparently they don't have any of this register for them until they personally get it - then it sinks in. That's basically the classic sign of inability to put yourself in someone else's shoes (empathy).

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

Just stopped on an article regarding hesitancy while looking for information on Indigenous vaccination rates in various regions.

Increasing SARS-CoV-2 vaccination rates among Black people in Canada

KEY POINTS In June 2020, Public Health Ontario started collecting data on race of patients with COVID-19, after months of community advocacy. It soon became apparent that Black people were disproportionately infected with SARS-CoV-2 in the province. According to the first data released by the

www.cmaj.ca

KEY POINTS

• Black people in Canada are at high risk of SARS-CoV-2 infections, hospitalizations, ICU admissions and deaths, yet may be more hesitant to receive the vaccine than other Canadians.
• Vaccine hesitancy in Black communities is not merely because of misinformation or gaps in health literacy; it is linked to medical distrust and structural racism.
• Afrocentric health promotion and counselling approaches that are centred on respecting patients’ values and perspectives have been used effectively to improve uptake of both influenza and SARS-CoV-2 vaccination in Black populations in Canada.
• The LEAPS of care communication framework (Listen and Learn, Empower and Engage, Ask and Acknowledge, Paraphrase and Provide, Support and Spark) can help clinicians bridge barriers to improve vaccine uptake in Black patients who are hesitant about receiving vaccines.
• Black-led partnerships between health care and stakeholders with existing trusted relationships in the community can confront anti-Black racism and improve outreach to increase confidence in SARS-CoV-2 vaccination in Black communities.

 

[MisterFalcon]

I wonder if any anti-vaxxer ever decides not to have local or general anesthesia when they need surgery. After all, why have some stuff made by Big Pharma injected that could have long term effects and science does not really understand. Far better to rely on your natural pain resistance.

 

[Keihart]

Just out of curiosity, has NA ever had successful vaccination campaigns? I know that several countries like mine have had those and had no problem doing it this time around, the anti vax population is smaller than 10% every time.

Polio vaccine was way more messy and there was anti vax campaigns back then too....no social media tho.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

What I see play out with people that are anti-vaxxers that get seriously ill is that almost all of them feel regret, and then try to speak to the people that still haven't gotten it and urge them to get it. That seems obvious, but when you think about it - it's kind of heartening news for me. It means that these are typically good people who care about other people on a basic level. They're in a rough spot in the hospital, and most seem to immediately change their mind and try to convince complete strangers to get it. Once they realize that there is actual real danger, and that the preventative solution is so easy, they feel compelled to tell people.

It really shows you how deep the disinformation really goes. These are people that do care about others, and themselves, but just LITERALLY don't think that the information on COVID or the vaccine is true. Pretty crazy.

I think a lot of people have tried the empathy route and tried to explain things to people they disagree with in ways that will resonate. I think we could do with a little more empathy from the anti-vax side though, since apparently they don't have any of this register for them until they personally get it - then it sinks in. That's basically the classic sign of inability to put yourself in someone else's shoes (empathy).

People who get seriosly hurt in motorcycle crashes often regret buying motorcycles.

People who get heart attacks often regret not forming healthy eating habits at a young age.

People who develop skin cancer often regret not covering up in the summer months.

Should we outlaw motorcycles, junk food, and beaches? Because doing all three would save a ton of lives. Or should we heed the words of Ben Franklin and get on with it?

The Covid threat is waning on the global scale. Fear porn media is milking it for profit. Don't let them.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

I see. So everyone who (currently) doesn't want to get the xeen is an anti-vaxxer? I guess that's one way to fuel your narcissism.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Throw me in gulag.

The right's oppression fetish is really something.

Maybe an inevitable consequences of making crucification the ultimate virtue of your faith, Christian conservatives are always dreaming about getting nailed to that cross.

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

“He is still with a fever, cough (and) sore throat and needs to be regularly medicated to manage pain, to eat and control his fever from increasing,” his mother said.
“We came home yesterday at noon when the doctors were comfortable with his urine output.”
She has had one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine and tested positive for the disease alongside her youngest child. She says her second dose was scheduled for the day the baby came home from hospital.
“I had very mild symptoms,” she said. “I didn’t even know I was sick.”
The family believes they caught the virus at a small, outdoor wedding. They were not contacted by contact tracers and say they discovered the exposure on their own.
“In the interior there have been two children (in hospital) but both of them have been discharged and we’ve had no children in the interior in the ICU,” confirmed provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry at a news conference Wednesday.

 

[McHuj]

WTF? Why is this even a story? Only purpose is to ratchet up the fear.

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

WTF? Why is this even a story? Only purpose is to ratchet up the fear.

Awareness of the risk. Single dose mother at an outdoor wedding.

So others know to take precautions and that children are vulnerable to catching covid. Get good treatments early.

 

[ManaByte]

WTF? Why is this even a story? Only purpose is to ratchet up the fear.

 

[SF Kosmo]

People who get seriosly hurt in motorcycle crashes often regret buying motorcycles.

People who get heart attacks often regret not forming healthy eating habits at a young age.

People who develop skin cancer often regret not covering up in the summer months.

Should we outlaw motorcycles, junk food, and beaches? Because doing all three would save a ton of lives. Or should we heed the words of Ben Franklin and get on with it?

The Covid threat is waning on the global scale. Fear porn media is milking it for profit. Don't let them.

The only liberty you give up from taking the vaccine is the liberty to die of a preventable disease. Your life is not enriched in any way by being unvaccinated. You aren't a freedom fighter. There must be a more productive way for you to get out the oppression fetish and stand up to the government. If there isn't, maybe be grateful.

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

Do some people even know how to comprehend what they read and put it into context of the immediate health response rather than their political beliefs.


At least there was a question.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The only liberty you give up from taking the vaccine is the liberty to die of a preventable disease. Your life is not enriched in any way by being unvaccinated. You aren't a freedom fighter.

I value personal choice more than you.

 

[Jaysen]

The others do bad faith! We don't do bad faith!

Our scientists. Their braindead conspiracy theorists. Totally the same thing.

 

[Rentahamster]

I value personal choice more than you.

Do you feel the same way when it comes to paying your taxes?

 

[MisterFalcon]

Or should we heed the words of Ben Franklin and get on with it?

The Covid threat is waning on the global scale. Fear porn media is milking it for profit. Don't let them.

A quote by Benjamin Franklin relevant to the current situation and not how to get the funds to defend against Indian raids:

“In 1736 I lost one of my sons, a fine boy of four years old, by the smallpox taken in the common way. I long regretted bitterly and still regret that I had not given it to him by inoculation. This I mention for the sake of the parents who omit that operation, on the supposition that they should never forgive themselves if a child died under it; my example showing that the regret may be the same either way, and that, therefore, the safer should be chosen.”1

 

[Jaysen]

Do you feel the same way when it comes to paying your taxes?

Or having car insurance, or abiding by laws etc etc. It’s amazing how quickly the veil falls away on these “muhhhh freedom!” hypocrites.

 

[RoboFu]

So I might be going to FLORIDA in a week and have been glued to coivd news/numbers for the last 3 weeks. and one thing greatly stands out to me. The NEWS sites are absolute shit!
Its all a political game for them. Its funny how google agrogates all the artilcles with the exact same headline from the various affiliates.(even rival news networks)
What is not so funny is you start seeing the trend of how they plan it all out. they post the same news and sesationalized headline on different days so its "DAILY" for two or so weeks straight. The numbers are usually wrong and updated a week or two later. Stated trends are usually very missleading.

I know an election is coming up but come on this is a very serious issue people are dealing with. It should be against the law to push propaganda so hard during a national crisis.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

A quote by Benjamin Franklin relevant to the current situation and not how to get the funds to defend against Indian raids:

I wonder if there are any differences between smallpox in 1736 and Covid19 in 2021.

Probably not.

I've changed my stance. If you don't get the vaxx you're subhuman.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Or having car insurance, or abiding by laws etc etc. It’s amazing how quickly the veil falls away on these “muhhhh freedom!” hypocrites.

 

[MilkyJoe]

The only liberty you give up from taking the vaccine is the liberty to die of a preventable disease. Your life is not enriched in any way by being unvaccinated. You aren't a freedom fighter. There must be a more productive way for you to get out the oppression fetish and stand up to the government. If there isn't, maybe be grateful.

That disease that's so deadly they need to test you to see if you have even had it?

Can you hear yourself? Are you this much of a drama queen over every virus?

 

[SF Kosmo]

I value personal choice more than you.

You can frame literally any proscriptive this way.

"I value the choice to drive my car with a cracked headlight."

That doesn't make you a freedom fighter for driving around with one headlight, now does it? And it mean taking a crowbar to your own car is a good way to prove how free you are.

You have several wonderful choices when it comes to vaccines. Consult your doctor, pick one and be grateful. Don't risk your own goddamn health and place a huge burden on the medical system for no greater reason than "I think I should be allowed." That's not an argument and it's not a worthy cause.

Your life will only be better if you get the shot, there's nothing for you to lose except a dumb identity pillar you've imagined for your yourself.

 

[RAÏSanÏa]

So I might be going ot FLORIDA in a week and have been glued to coivd news/numbers for the last 3 weeks. and one thing greatly stands out to me. The NEWS sites are absolute shit!
Its all a political game for them. Its funny how google agrogates all the artilcles with the exact same headline from the various affiliates.(even rival news networks)
What is not so funny is you start seeing the trend of how they plan it all out. they post the same news and sesationalized headline on different days so its "DAILY" for two or so weeks straight. The numbers are usually wrong and updated a week or two later. Stated trends are usually very missleading.

I know an election is coming up but come on this is a very seriouse issue people are dealing with. It should be against the law to push propaganda so hard during a national crisis.

Tone as much as what's being said. The opening line on that ctv story I posted above doesn't seem to have been intentionally meant to convey more emphasis(I think). Not for political ends anyhow. No party benefits more or less from it. Unless there's some fringe, like accellerationists. It's just the way that Canadian anchors currently read things with a pause then an ooomph. A baby in Kelowna has (pause) been in hospital. He definitely hit it too hard. The lady reporter saved the delivery. I think she was trying to supress a laugh(this is really serious, but that was almost an 22 Minutes bit). The 18 care workers in that one care home mentioned at the end raises questions.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You can frame literally any proscriptive this way.

"I value the choice to drive my car with a cracked headlight."

That doesn't make you a freedom fighter for driving around with one headlight, now does it? And it mean taking a crowbar to your own car is a good way to prove how free you are.

You have several wonderful choices when it comes to vaccines. Consult your doctor, pick one and be grateful. Don't risk your own goddamn health and place a huge burden on the medical system for no greater reason than "I think I should be allowed." That's not an argument.

You are familiar with how the human species works, right?

We formulate a risk benefit analysis on essentially everything in our lives. You, I, and the other 6.99 billion people of planet earth are going to see everything differently. Genes + culture + environment = variety.

Btw, I won't be placing a huge burden on the healthcare system because I live in a reality formed by data.

The burdens of healthcare are many. It's not just Covid that's filling up hospital beds. Let's think of other risky behavior that inundates our hospitals and maybe we can mandate against those too?

We live in a culture addicted to shaming others. It's an epidemic. Careful you don't catch that bug.

 

[betrayal]

That's quite an assumption to make.

And yet it is correct.

It is not about personal fates or experiences. I don't have to know anyone here personally to know that there are some overweight people here who are flaming advocates of vaccination, but when it comes to the statistically significantly greater risk to the lives of themselves and their loved ones, the next BigMac order while sitting in front of the computer all day is their right of personal autonomy and no other people should ever care.

At the same time, I would like to emphasize once again that I am clearly in favor of vaccination. But for me it's not about the pros and cons, but about how some people act here.

There are no valid arguments for being anti-vax. We should all happily feel superior to these cheese grinders - as much as we do towards flat earthers, or Q Anon conspiracy nuts. They are all cut from the same stupid cloth - and if someone rolls up here trying to defend them, I think we should all lambast them thoroughly for it.

This is exactly the mistake in thinking.

It is not about right or wrong. It's about assessing the risks. Personally, I agree with the data and think that vaccination is the best choice for the vast majority of people.
But that doesn't mean that everyone has to choose vaccination. If someone accepts the risk of infection, then let them do so. Many people are concerned with the "perceived" (long-term) risk of vaccination and are willing to become infected without vaccination. If they survive, and the vast majority do, they are healthy and have not exposed themselves to the (very small) risks of vaccination. Statistically, it is certainly not the smartest way for most people, but it is one way to completely avoid the potential side effects of a vaccination.

That being said people also need to understand that many anti-vaxxers are not against vaccination in general, but against vaccination for the coronavirus. But this is just another of many examples of these constant generalizations. Politics and the environment are demonstrating this and most people are adopting this way of thinking.

 

[12Goblins]

Some are calling this a "crisis actor".

dam bro she broke the act, the gig is up

 

[DeepBreath87]

You are familiar with how the human species works, right?

We formulate a risk benefit analysis on essentially everything in our lives. You, I, and the other 6.99 billion people of planet earth are going to see everything differently. Genes + culture + environment = variety.

Btw, I won't be placing a huge burden on the healthcare system because I live in a reality formed by data.

The burdens of healthcare are many. It's not just Covid that's filling up hospital beds. Let's think of other risky behavior that inundates our hospitals and maybe we can mandate against those too?

We live in a culture addicted to shaming others. It's an epidemic. Careful you don't catch that bug.

No. We have to ignore the people and behaviors that have kept hospitals operating at near capacity literally for the last decade. Only covid can matter now. Forget smoking. Forget obesity. Forget type 2 diabetes. Only covid fills hospitals to capacity.

Obviously covid is an added stress on the system. But the system is stressed by the abundance of fat, unhealthy and unmotivated people in the US that, much like unvaccinated people, show up at the hospital looking for us to fix them when the consequences of their shit choices arise. They are literally exactly the same as the unvaccinated. Coming to the hospital after years of poor choices, looking for us to make it so they can get back in line at Burger King. The only difference is that we are used to dealing with fatties. But make no mistake, the fatties were stressing the healthcare system long before covid.

 

[Rentahamster]

You're struggling with the context and trying to throw out absolute numbers without considering the vast size of India's population.
I showed you a graph that outlines the true picture of just how bad India was hit. Relatively compared with the UK and US, India fared pretty well despite what the media projected and your emotive signalling.

Looking at the data from India, do you agree that vaccines don't reduce infection rates?

I'm not the one who's struggling.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891

RESULTS​

Effectiveness after one dose of vaccine (BNT162b2 or ChAdOx1 nCoV-19) was notably lower among persons with the delta variant (30.7%; 95% confidence interval [CI], 25.2 to 35.7) than among those with the alpha variant (48.7%; 95% CI, 45.5 to 51.7); the results were similar for both vaccines. With the BNT162b2 vaccine, the effectiveness of two doses was 93.7% (95% CI, 91.6 to 95.3) among persons with the alpha variant and 88.0% (95% CI, 85.3 to 90.1) among those with the delta variant. With the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine, the effectiveness of two doses was 74.5% (95% CI, 68.4 to 79.4) among persons with the alpha variant and 67.0% (95% CI, 61.3 to 71.8) among those with the delta variant.

REACT study shows fully vaccinated are three times less likely to be infected

The latest REACT-1 study findings from Imperial College London and Ipsos MORI show COVID-19 infection rates are three times lower for double vaccinated people.

www.gov.uk

• Findings covering 24 June to 12 July from Imperial College London and Ipsos MORI show fully vaccinated people were three times less likely than unvaccinated people to test positive for COVID-19
• unvaccinated people were three times more likely than fully vaccinated people to test positive for COVID-19, with prevalence at 1.21% and 0.40%;
• double vaccinated people in the most recent round were estimated to have around 50 to 60% reduced risk of infection, including asymptomatic infection, compared to unvaccinated people;
• those who were fully vaccinated may be less likely to pass on the virus to others than those who have not received a vaccine;
• of the 254 positive samples sequenced for variants, 100% were the Delta variant, compared to 78.3% in the last report at the end of May (round 12);

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.28.21259420v1.full.pdf

Conclusions: Our findings suggest that even a single dose of these 3 vaccine products provide good to excellent protection against symptomatic infection and severe outcomes caused by the 4 currently circulating variants of concern, and that 2 doses are likely to provide even higher protection

Pfizer Shot Just 39% Effective Against Delta Infection, But Largely Prevents Severe Illness, Israel Study Suggests

Previous estimates indicated the Pfizer shot was only moderately less protective against Delta, though all studies indicate a high level of protection against hospitalization and severe illness.

www.forbes.com

A full course of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was just 39% effective at preventing infections and 41% effective at preventing symptomatic infections caused by the Delta Covid-19 variant, according to Israel’s health ministry, down from early estimates of 64% two weeks ago.

Case Counts | coronavirus

coronavirus.utah.gov

Case rates per capita are fewer among vaccinated people, despite them already being skewed towards older people.

Comparison of two highly-effective mRNA vaccines for COVID-19 during periods of Alpha and Delta variant prevalence

Although clinical trials and real-world studies have affirmed the effectiveness and safety of the FDA-authorized COVID-19 vaccines, reports of breakthrough infections and persistent emergence of new variants highlight the need to vigilantly monitor the effectiveness of these vaccines. Here we...

www.medrxiv.org

However, in July, the effectiveness against infection was considerably lower for mRNA-1273 (76%, 95% CI: 58-87%) with an even more pronounced reduction in effectiveness for BNT162b2 (42%, 95% CI: 13-62%). Notably, the Delta variant prevalence in Minnesota increased from 0.7% in May to over 70% in July whereas the Alpha variant prevalence decreased from 85% to 13% over the same time period. Comparing rates of infection between matched individuals fully vaccinated with mRNA-1273 versus BNT162b2 across Mayo Clinic Health System sites in multiple states (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Arizona, Florida, and Iowa), mRNA-1273 conferred a two-fold risk reduction against breakthrough infection compared to BNT162b2 (IRR = 0.50, 95% CI: 0.39-0.64). In Florida, which is currently experiencing its largest COVID-19 surge to date, the risk of infection in July after full vaccination with mRNA-1273 was about 60% lower than after full vaccination with BNT162b2 (IRR: 0.39, 95% CI: 0.24-0.62). Our observational study highlights that while both mRNA COVID-19 vaccines strongly protect against infection and severe disease, further evaluation of mechanisms underlying differences in their effectiveness such as dosing regimens and vaccine composition are warranted.

You also didn't answer my question: Do you think 400,000 dead was an acceptable price to pay for herd immunity?

 

[Punished Miku]

You can frame literally any proscriptive this way.

You are familiar with how the human species works, right?

We formulate a risk benefit analysis on essentially everything in our lives. You, I, and the other 6.99 billion people of planet earth are going to see everything differently. Genes + culture + environment = variety.

Re-read his first line. You kind of completely avoided his point.

You can use that argument to basically advocate for complete anarchy. You can use that argument to undermine literally any law, rule, or regulation in existence.

 

[MisterFalcon]

I wonder if there are any differences between smallpox in 1736 and Covid19 in 2021.

Probably not.

I've changed my stance. If you don't get the vaxx you're subhuman.

A smallpox inoculation killed 2% of who got them. Smallpox killed 15% of who got it.

Even someone as intelligent as Franklin thought his son would be better of taking the chances with the 'natural' way of things despite the obvious advantages of innoculation.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

That disease that's so deadly they need to test you to see if you have even had it?

Can you hear yourself? Are you this much of a drama queen over every virus?

There's a lot of binary live or die talk surrounding all of this but what actually scares me about the virus as a very fit person in his 30s is the lasting effects of Covid. I couldn't be less scared about dying from it but the growing probability of having life ruining side effects has me a little shook. I live a very active lifestyle and seeing how many people my age that still don't have their full lung capacity and feel "foggy" is pretty alarming. I was just reading an article last week about people that've had to seek treatment for depression because they still couldn't taste food a year later and it was like torture for them.

I think the potential of dying is being overstated in all of this while the lasting effects are being overwhelmingly unacknowledged. The irony being that a lot of people refusing the vaccine are doing so because they insist there will be long term side effects from the shot (still waiting for those to appear over a year later) but the laundry list of side effects from Covid seem to be no big deal, which is also how they approach the virus itself and then change their mind about it as they see the nurse wheeling the ventilator into the room.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Re-read his first line. You kind of completely avoided his point.

You can use that argument to basically advocate for complete anarchy. You can use that argument to undermine literally any law, rule, or regulation in existence.

But this is what we actually do. Society’s job is to create a system that tips the risk/benefit into the direction we want it to go. Criminals make the decision that breaking the law is worth the risk of suffering whatever punishment awaits them should they be caught. That is literally what you do when you drive over the speed limit. We do this all the time.

 

[Punished Miku]

But this is what we actually do. Society’s job is to create a system that tips the risk/benefit into the direction we want it to go. Criminals make the decision that breaking the law is worth the risk of suffering whatever punishment awaits them should they be caught. That is literally what you do when you drive over the speed limit. We do this all the time.

We do what all the time?

He's basically arguing that everyone is so different and life is so subjective that the only logical stance is total freedom. But that's an argument for anarchy, and literally undermines any law in existence. In reality, people have imposed restrictions on other people's freedom the second we gathered together into small groups. The entire point of mutual existence in a society is shared cohabitation based on a set of rules. The entire point of society is to be the anti-thesis to lawlessness. His argument is literally devoid of any meaning in modern day reality.

If he lived in a desert or a forest completely by himself, he may have a point. It's a libertarian fantasy.

 

[FunkMiller]

"This isn't about you."