Support NeoGAF

[sackings]

https://archive.is/fVi6i

fucking lol.

 

[JumpMan1981]

JumpMan1981 what did you think about this extra context around the India situation? Did you respond to that? Apologies if I missed it.

Covid 19 Thread: [no bitching about masks of Fauci edition]

Migrants and congress exempt???? This shit is infuriating

www.neogaf.com

Yeah I thought it was interesting but I am still taking the "wait and see" stance with Ivermectin.

I wouldn't have any need to take it myself and if someone's doctor gives them a prescription then that's between them and their doctor.

Just another discussion that will go round and round. Some countries obviously thought Ivermectin was a goer for some reason and some doctor will prescribe it so I will sit back and see how that plays out.

Seems mad for folk to go well out of their way to get some alternative when the vaccine is right there but I am not them so whatever, that's on them.

Not gonna claim its a miracle cure like an idiot. Not going to go around screeching about horse paste like an idiot either.

 

[JumpMan1981]

I ask that every time I see idiots equating the vaccine and masks with freedom.

Back in your comfort zone, I see.

 

[Rentahamster]

Just another discussion that will go round and round. Some countries obviously thought Ivermectin was a goer for some reason and some doctor will prescribe it so I will sit back and see how that plays out.

Specifically I want to know if the new information changed your analysis of the situation at all as to who was in a bubble. You wanted to know what the story was, and your understanding was that India perhaps had some information that we didn't or that we were too arrogant or blind to see that India might have been on to something.

Turns out they were probably just desperate.

I think people need to hold their hands up and admit that for whatever reason other countries in the world have believed, for some reason, that Ivermectin might be the solution here. Does it have to be MY solution? No. I got vaccinated. Can it be someone else's solution? It seems like it might be and if a doctor is willing to write a prescription and the Indian government is willing to give the entire nation a dose AND there are a number of studies underway examining the possible use of ivermectin then maybe, just maybe, there is something in all that.

Problem is that this would lead to a lot of extremely stubborn people on the internet having to admit that they were wrong and we all know that this will not happen without heavy resistance.

You make it sound like there weren't any good reasons to doubt what they were doing in India. But there were lots. "Maybe, just maybe" there was something to the combination of actions that you described, but the story doesn't end there. There's a lot of evidence, or lack thereof, to indicate that "maybe" wasn't good enough.

 

[Rentahamster]

https://archive.is/fVi6i

fucking lol.

Researchers in Israel reported that a third dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech Covid vaccine can enhance protection in adults older than 60 for at least 12 days — a result that is unsurprising, experts said, and does not indicate long-term benefit.

What's funny about that?

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Its a tough crowd on here but I, and many others, agree with you.

I've pretty much felt that since I was vaccinated I don't really care what anyone else does. My vaccine works so I am fine. If someone else doesn't want to be vaccinated then fine by me. I really don't care.

Which puts me in a bad spot though. I see people really wanting to coerce others into getting vaccinated and I can't really agree with that. I belive the individual should be able to make their own choice and since we who are vaxxed are already protected I am fine letting them make their own choices. I already protected myself so no problem.

Just don’t hope you have some unrelated medical emergency or procedure because the entire healthcare system is full.

side note: looks like the cousin’s wife is getting intubated today

 

[Vicetrailia]

Just don’t hope you have some unrelated medical emergency or procedure because the entire healthcare system is full.

side note: looks like the cousin’s wife is getting intubated today

At the end of the day Corona is a problem that we have to deal with in many types of ways. Yes everyone can make a decision about the vaccine (not getting it is the incorrect decision, but still a decision), but that decision ain't free.

 

[Rentahamster]

At the end of the day Corona is a problem that we have to deal with in many types of ways. Yes everyone can make a decision about the vaccine (not getting it is the incorrect decision, but still a decision), but that decision ain't free.

Yes. And unfortunately that cost of that decision in both money and health/wellness is borne by both the stubborn anti-vaxxer as well as the rest of us. My opinion on these matters would be a lot different if the costs were isolated to an individual level.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Yes. And unfortunately that cost of that decision in both money and health/wellness is borne by both the stubborn anti-vaxxer as well as the rest of us. My opinion on these matters would be a lot different if the costs were isolated to an individual level.

I would feel the same. If the ramifications of the ignorance surrounding the Anti-Vax people was isolated to just those people then I would give a soggy fart what they did with their time. They could eat all the horse paste they want while they rant and rave about how the vaccine makes your balls explode. I wouldn't give a damn because their stupidity would only be hurting themselves.


But that's not how it works in real life. These idiots convince each other of crazy nonsense surrounding this or that. Next thing you know the hospitals are clogged with people who didn't have to be there, but because they listened to their insane aunt or cousin on Facebook who swears the vaccine makes you sterile or that horse paste goes great with mountain dew instead of an actual doctor telling them to just get the vaccine they are taking up space and draining resources that would be better spent elsewhere.



I swear that 90% of this problem is not about the vaccine. It's the complete inability for people to realize that they are not the center of the universe. That problems go beyond just THEM. Their decisions affect more than just themselves. But they can't see beyond the bathroom mirror.

 

[Jaysen]

Back in your comfort zone, I see.

Is that the Betadine talking?

 

[Nobody_Important]

Is that the Betadine talking?

Betadine?

 

[JumpMan1981]

Just don’t hope you have some unrelated medical emergency or procedure because the entire healthcare system is full.

Well, I hope so too but it is what it is.
Wasn't exactly planning to live forever and sometimes shit happens.

Governments had 18 months now to expand their healthcare systems. They obviously have the money judging by their actions so a capacity healthcare system can't solely be blamed on the unvaccinated.

18 months to build facilities and to train workers, plenty of unemployed around these days. Maybe work on that instead of sitting around trying to figure out how to all but force people to take a vaccine.

We knew all along who was most at risk. Elderly, obese etc etc. Very little done to help.

Maybe we shouldn't have put all our eggs in one basket.

If I get fucked up and there's no bed then that's the way it goes, I guess. Life is fragile and fleeting.

 

[Narasumas]

Hospitals should only make a small allocation of their ICU beds available for covid patients now and leave the majority for others.

“Sir we won’t treat your head injury from the car accident bc you had alcohol in your system.”

“Sir, you should’ve followed the safety manual properly before cutting your hand open on the table saw”

You can see the fallacy in this right?

 

[Nobody_Important]

Well, I hope so too but it is what it is.
Wasn't exactly planning to live forever and sometimes shit happens.

Governments had 18 months not to expand their healthcare systems. They obviously have to money judging by their actions so a capacity healthcare system can't solely be blamed on the unvaccinated.

18 months to build facilities and to train workers, plenty of unemployed around these days. Maybe work on that instead of sitting around trying to figure out how to all but force people to take a vaccine.

We knew all along who was most at risk. Elderly, obese etc etc. Very little done to help.

If I get fucked up and there's no bed then that's the way it goes, I guess. Life is fragile and fleeting.

Yeah sorry you don't just pick up healthcare workers from the random unemployed off the street and throw them into hospitals after a few weeks of training.


You also don't build entire hospitals in random locations in a year and a half just so you can deal with the overflow caused by all of this. Because inevitably when all of this blows over you would just have a hospital that you don't need full of staff that are just going to lose their jobs.


And the reason why they are trying to get people to take the vaccine instead of doing everything that you just said is because getting people to take the vaccine would help alleviate the problem for much less money and much less long-term damage. You are basically whining that they took the more effective and cheaper option instead of spending 18 months wasting time and money.



You really didn't think that post through did you?

 

[Rentahamster]

Analysis of how Israel's case numbers shot up through a perfect storm of the delta variant's increased infectiousness, waning immunity on vaccinations, and the relaxation of non-pharmaceutical interventions. Not peer reviewed.

What pushed Israel out of herd immunity? Modeling COVID-19 spread of Delta and Waning immunity

Following a successful vaccination campaign at the beginning of 2021 in Israel, where approximately 60% of the population were vaccinated with an mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine, it seemed that Israel had crossed the herd immunity threshold (HIT). Nonetheless, Israel has seen a steady rise in COVID-19...

www.medrxiv.org

Following a successful vaccination campaign at the beginning of 2021 in Israel, where approximately 60% of the population were vaccinated with an mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine, it seemed that Israel had crossed the herd immunity threshold (HIT). Nonetheless, Israel has seen a steady rise in COVID-19 morbidity since June 2021, reaching over 1,000 cases per million by August.

This outbreak is attributed to several events that came together: the temporal decline of the vaccine’s efficacy (VE); lower efficacy of the vaccine against the current Delta (B.1.617.2) variant; highly infectiousness of Delta; and temporary halt of mandated NPIs (non-pharmaceutical interventions) or any combination of the above.

Using a novel spatial-dynamic model and recent aggregate data from Israel, we examine the extent of the impact of the Delta variant on morbidity and whether it can solely explain the outbreak. We conclude that both Delta infectiousness and waning immunity could have been able to push Israel above the HIT independently, and thus, to mitigate the outbreak effective NPIs are required. Our analysis cautions countries that once vaccines’ will wane a highly infectious spread is expected, and therefore, the expected decline in the vaccine’s effectiveness in those countries should be accompanied by another vaccination campaign and effective NPIs.

In summary, we argue that both the Delta variant higher infectiousness and the reduction of effectiveness of the vaccines contributed to pushing Israel above the HIT. If this is the case, the booster shots provided to all Israelis since August, are expected to reduce severe cases and the burden on hospitals, but not to bring Israel back to herd immunity without reinstating effective NPIs.

 

[RoboFu]

“Sir we won’t treat your head injury from the car accident bc you had alcohol in your system.”

“Sir, you should’ve followed the safety manual properly before cutting your hand open on the table saw”

You can see the fallacy in this right?

No I don’t because there isn’t a massive influx of stupid people cutting their hands off, or having severe accidents from drinking taking up all the ICU beds daily. If they were then we should do the same for them and make room for real emergencies that couldn’t easily be avoided.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

How can you claim HIT with 60% vaccination rate?

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Well, I hope so too but it is what it is.
Wasn't exactly planning to live forever and sometimes shit happens.

Governments had 18 months now to expand their healthcare systems. They obviously have the money judging by their actions so a capacity healthcare system can't solely be blamed on the unvaccinated.

18 months to build facilities and to train workers, plenty of unemployed around these days. Maybe work on that instead of sitting around trying to figure out how to all but force people to take a vaccine.

We knew all along who was most at risk. Elderly, obese etc etc. Very little done to help.

Maybe we shouldn't have put all our eggs in one basket.

If I get fucked up and there's no bed then that's the way it goes, I guess. Life is fragile and fleeting.

Well, not everyone is a nihilist

 

[Rentahamster]

I posted here about how well San Francisco's schools are doing with their policies: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/covi...masks-of-fauci-edition.1608887/post-264567637

Now we can add Los Angeles to the list of school districts that have policies that work.

New data affirm it. L.A. County school safety policies are working as COVID rates are low

The low rates will allow school districts to adopt relaxed quarantine policies so students can stay in class.

www.latimes.com

The early weeks of fully opened Los Angeles County schools have coincided with declining pediatric coronavirus cases, the first indication campuses are generally operating safely without a troubling number of outbreaks.

Citing the low number of coronavirus outbreaks in schools, public health officials on Thursday announced that schools in L.A. County will no longer be automatically required to send unvaccinated students home to quarantine for at least seven days after their last contact with an individual who tests positive.

Over the last three weeks, coronavirus cases declined across all pediatric age groups by about 40%, according to L.A. County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer.

California has directed districts to require masking indoors in K-12 schools, a move at odds with states such as Florida and Texas, whose governors banned school officials from enforcing mask mandates. Texas’ attorney general is suing several districts that have attempted to require masks, while Florida’s governor has threatened to withhold state funding from school boards that attempt to do the same.

The differing policies could be a reason behind the vast differences in pediatric outcomes among children: Florida and Texas have reported records in new pediatric hospitalizations for COVID-19 in the wake of a summer surge caused by the Delta variant, while California remained below the levels of its winter surge.

Florida’s rate of new daily pediatric COVID-19 hospitalization is now six times worse than California’s, while Texas’ is four times worse. The national rate is three times as worse as California’s, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

 

[Nobody_Important]

“Sir we won’t treat your head injury from the car accident bc you had alcohol in your system.”

“Sir, you should’ve followed the safety manual properly before cutting your hand open on the table saw”

You can see the fallacy in this right?

You have a person who was shot in a parking lot as he was robbed.


You have a guy who shot himself in the foot while deliberately mishandling a firearm.


Who do you feel more sorry for?


Edit: Just to be clear I am not saying we should limit beds or care. I'm just curious what your take is on the example.

 

[Rentahamster]

How can you claim HIT with 60% vaccination rate?

That was what Classic SARSCOV2's threshold was estimated to be without taking waning immunity into consideration. With the delta variant, all that is thrown out the window.

 

[Narasumas]

No I don’t because there isn’t a massive influx of stupid people cutting their hands off, or having severe accidents from drinking taking up all the ICU beds daily. If they were then we should do the same for them and make room for real emergencies that couldn’t easily be avoided.

But there should not ever be a litmus on who gets treated and who doesn’t. That sets a bad precedent. The line could be drawn on anything really. assuming these people are actually treatable that is.

 

[Narasumas]

You have a person who was shot in a parking lot as he was robbed.


You have a guy who shot himself in the foot while deliberately mishandling a firearm.


Who do you feel more sorry for?

It’s not who you feel sorry for…it’s who you turn away treatment for. I’m this case, the answer is neither.

 

[JumpMan1981]

Yeah sorry you don't just pick up healthcare workers from the random unemployed off the street and throw them into hospitals after a few weeks of training.


You also don't build entire hospitals in random locations in a year and a half just so you can deal with the overflow caused by all of this. Because inevitably when all of this blows over you would just have a hospital that you don't need full of staff that are just going to lose their jobs.



You really didn't think that post through did you?

I thought it through just fine. We've had 18 months of this and will likely have years more to come.
The best we can do is sit here and hope that we can force a vaccine on people?
Not good enough.

Whether you like it or not, people have the right to make their own choices. Fantasies of refusing to treat unvaccinated people or smugness around made up media stories about the stupid "other" aren't going to do a damn thing.

This disease is here to stay and if our ONE solution is "force everyone to do it our way" then good luck with that.

Far more likely that people find solutions where they can live their life as normally as possible while avoiding the vaccine. Easy enough here since supermarkets can do home delivery, people can come and go as they please into the countryside. Negative tests will work just as well as social passports. Plenty of people who will be exempt for legit reasons won't be vaxxed and plenty of others will find all the loopholes.

What's next for us? Berating people with hidden disabilities because they are in the store without a mask? Demanding that some unvaccinated person with a valid exemption be refused a hospital bed unless they can give an essay about their condition and then overcome any objections too? You think any of that makes us the good guys?

Yes, people should be vaccinated. No, we can't force them. So we'd better come up with some solutions that aren't "hurr durr you so stoopid we gonna force you anyway".

 

[Nobody_Important]

It’s not who you feel sorry for…it’s who you turn away treatment for. I’m this case, the answer is neither.

It is because that's the question I asked, but I see why you don't wanna answer the question.

 

[Rentahamster]

It’s not who you feel sorry for…it’s who you turn away treatment for. I’m this case, the answer is neither.

That's not a luxury available to us in the event there's no more space. Easy to say that when you don't have to make hard choices.

Idaho is now in statewide mass-casualty triage mode, due to COVID surge • Idaho Capital Sun

The entire state of Idaho is now under crisis standards of care, due to the COVID-19 surge. Idaho's largest hospitals are in triage mode.

idahocapitalsun.com

 

[JumpMan1981]

You have a person who was shot in a parking lot as he was robbed.


You have a guy who shot himself in the foot while deliberately mishandling a firearm.


Who do you feel more sorry for?


Edit: Just to be clear I am not saying we should limit beds or care. I'm just curious what your take is on the example.

Without time to delve into each person's back story how could anyone answer that?

What if the guy shot in the foot has a condition and maybe isn't fully aware of the danger and got possession of the gun because of someone else's negligence.

What if the guy shot in the robbery is a career criminal himself?

Probably I'd just give both parties the benefit of the doubt. Why wouldn't I? Especially if there isn't time to mess about trying to establish a full narrative for each and every case.

You really didn't think that post through did you?

 

[Nobody_Important]

That's not a luxury available to us in the event there's no more space. Easy to say that when you don't have to make hard choices.

Idaho is now in statewide mass-casualty triage mode, due to COVID surge • Idaho Capital Sun

The entire state of Idaho is now under crisis standards of care, due to the COVID-19 surge. Idaho's largest hospitals are in triage mode.

idahocapitalsun.com

Exactly.

Its not something that you would ever want to implement long term, but in some areas its a question that is already being answered everyday.

You really didn't think that post through did you?

You got me to laugh I'll give you that. A for effort lol

 

[funkygunther]

I thought it through just fine. We've had 18 months of this and will likely have years more to come.
The best we can do is sit here and hope that we can force a vaccine on people?
Not good enough.

Whether you like it or not, people have the right to make their own choices. Fantasies of refusing to treat unvaccinated people or smugness around made up media stories about the stupid "other" aren't going to do a damn thing.

This disease is here to stay and if our ONE solution is "force everyone to do it our way" then good luck with that.

Far more likely that people find solutions where they can live their life as normally as possible while avoiding the vaccine. Easy enough here since supermarkets can do home delivery, people can come and go as they please into the countryside. Negative tests will work just as well as social passports. Plenty of people who will be exempt for legit reasons won't be vaxxed and plenty of others will find all the loopholes.

What's next for us? Berating people with hidden disabilities because they are in the store without a mask? Demanding that some unvaccinated person with a valid exemption be refused a hospital bed unless they can give an essay about their condition and then overcome any objections too? You think any of that makes us the good guys?

Yes, people should be vaccinated. No, we can't force them. So we'd better come up with some solutions that aren't "hurr durr you so stoopid we gonna force you anyway".

we had a solution before the vaccine, and people weren’t big fans of that…the vaccine is a better solution but it’s not the only one open to governments, it’s still better than setting up overflow field ICU hospitals and hope they turn out ok

if people don’t want the vaccine, they’re electing to proceed with more lockdowns

 

[Nobody_Important]

we had a solution before the vaccine, and people weren’t big fans of that…the vaccine is a better solution but it’s not the only one open to governments, it’s still better than setting up overflow field ICU hospitals and hope they turn out ok

if people don’t want the vaccine, they’re electing to proceed with more lockdowns

And that is what is pissing a lot of people off. I have family members who started off going the whole "Their decision hurr durr" route, but here we are towards the end of the year and I have heard them supporting the mandates now because they are sick of all of this.


The longer idiots keep refusing to face reality the longer this mess goes on.

 

[Jaysen]

Betadine?

Some Anti-Vaxxers Are Allegedly Gargling Betadine as COVID 'Cure'

There is insufficient evidence that gargling Betadine treats and prevents COVID-19 with experts warning it is highly toxic when ingested.

www.newsweek.com

 

[poppabk]

Far more likely that people find solutions where they can live their life as normally as possible while avoiding the vaccine. Easy enough here since supermarkets can do home delivery, people can come and go as they please into the countryside. Negative tests will work just as well as social passports. Plenty of people who will be exempt for legit reasons won't be vaxxed and plenty of others will find all the loopholes.

This is all fine. You seem to be under the mistaken idea that the end goal of people supporting vaccination is to get everyone vaccinated. The end goal is to minimize the impact of the disease, reduce burdens in hospitals and go back to normal. If people decide to partially self isolate and get regular testing rather than get a vaccine then that helps accomplish the goal.

 

[JumpMan1981]

we had a solution before the vaccine, and people weren’t big fans of that…the vaccine is a better solution but it’s not the only one open to governments, it’s still better than setting up overflow field ICU hospitals and hope they turn out ok

if people don’t want the vaccine, they’re electing to proceed with more lockdowns

We'll maybe manage a couple more lockdowns but I don't see any way we are still having lockdowns a few years from now.

This will come down to what an acceptable level of vaccination looks like.

Mandates will only push it so far.

I kind of think of it like my friend moaning about getting banned from twitter or Facebook. I don't care because I don't use them. You can mandate vaccines for overseas travel or indoor concerts but a lot of people don't bother with those things anyway.

As I've said here before the lockdown really didn't affect us at all. If it wasn't for a desire to take holidays in the summer I may have held off on the vaccine actually but I wanted to travel so here we are.

A lot of folks are not going to be vaccinated no matter what but a concern I would have now is actually how far would governments go to force a vaccine. There are obviously massive ethical questions there.

If you looked at Internet discourse in the early 2010s you would see an awful lot of conversation around the idea of choice, freedom and consent. It's amazing how quickly some people have done a 180 on all that. It's troubling to be honest.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Some Anti-Vaxxers Are Allegedly Gargling Betadine as COVID 'Cure'

There is insufficient evidence that gargling Betadine treats and prevents COVID-19 with experts warning it is highly toxic when ingested.

www.newsweek.com

 

[ManaByte]

Some Anti-Vaxxers Are Allegedly Gargling Betadine as COVID 'Cure'

There is insufficient evidence that gargling Betadine treats and prevents COVID-19 with experts warning it is highly toxic when ingested.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Narasumas]

It is because that's the question I asked, but I see why you don't wanna answer the question.

LOL, are you really being serious?? Obviously I feel more sorry for the victim of a crime, vs. the negligent person…but doctors do not treat based on who they feel sorry for. What kind of comparison are you trying to make? I mean, I’m flabbergasted by the thought process on display here. Thank god you are not a doctor.

Doctors treat who are treatable… not who is “deserving of treatment”. For Christ’s sake, we take in criminals right after a mass shooting and provide treatment. It’s part of the hippocratic oath.

Edit: tagging Rentahamster & RoboFu on this as well.

 

[Rentahamster]

Doctors treat who are treatable… not who is “deserving of treatment”. For Christ’s sake, we take in criminals right after a mass shooting and provide treatment. It’s part of the hippocratic oath.

Yes, we do that because there's enough treatment capacity to go around. The large amount of COVID patients are causing a situation of scarce resources.

How do you, as a leader, manage these scarce resources when not everyone can get everything that they need? Doctors "treat who are treatable" when there is enough treatment to go around. When COVID overruns a hospital, there isn't enough. What do you do?

 

[JumpMan1981]

I'm also wondering if there has ever been any self-reflection from government, media, celebrities and whoever does marketing for these pharmaceutical companies?

Why is the situation SO bad that people simply don't trust these vaccines. It's not a USA only thing. I am surprised when I see stuff coming from friends in Poland and Slovakia and also Netherlands who I would have never ever thought of as being in the anti-vax side. It seems that in every country in the world there is some degree of hesitancy. So its not really political.

Its like these pillars of society eroded the public trust but now think they can speak with authority and be obeyed without any kind of acknowledgement that they have been dishonest before. I think thats a bit of a problem. An unwillingness to say "we've been wrong before and we take responsibility for that but let's do better now."

Look at how eager mainstream outlets and even some government people have been to drag and humiliate Nicki Minaj? Surely there is a better way to handle that? Like if you wanted to ensure that she gets more support then the way things have played out is about right. If you wanted to educate her then why not do that offline and in private and see if she at least doesn't say crazy shit anymore? Nah let's try so hard to make an example of her that see gets sympathy and we seem suspiciously vindictive.

Wasnt swollen nutsack and impotence a potential vaccine side effect? I vaguely remember the documentation that was handed out at the vaccination center and Bells palsy was the real "WTF" one that I remember.

 

[Narasumas]

Yes, we do that because there's enough treatment capacity to go around. The large amount of COVID patients are causing a situation of scarce resources.

How do you, as a leader, manage these scarce resources when not everyone can get everything that they need? Doctors "treat who are treatable" when there is enough treatment to go around. When COVID overruns a hospital, there isn't enough. What do you do?

What did we do in 2020 when there was an overflow? We reacted, either through federal intervention, pop-up overflow hospital capacity, etc.

You don’t just say “no” on a basis of discrimination. And when I say discrimination, I say that focusing soley outside of probable treatment. I understand doctors make decisions, and have to turn some away while treating others. That is based on treatability, not on external factors.

 

[funkygunther]

We'll maybe manage a couple more lockdowns but I don't see any way we are still having lockdowns a few years from now.

This will come down to what an acceptable level of vaccination looks like.

Mandates will only push it so far.

I kind of think of it like my friend moaning about getting banned from twitter or Facebook. I don't care because I don't use them. You can mandate vaccines for overseas travel or indoor concerts but a lot of people don't bother with those things anyway.

As I've said here before the lockdown really didn't affect us at all. If it wasn't for a desire to take holidays in the summer I may have held off on the vaccine actually but I wanted to travel so here we are.

A lot of folks are not going to be vaccinated no matter what but a concern I would have now is actually how far would governments go to force a vaccine. There are obviously massive ethical questions there.

If you looked at Internet discourse in the early 2010s you would see an awful lot of conversation around the idea of choice, freedom and consent. It's amazing how quickly some people have done a 180 on all that. It's troubling to be honest.

then that’s an even stranger gamble than just expecting more lockdowns, every person that doesn’t want the vaccine is hoping they’re within the x% threshold and not the ones pushing out that acceptable level

its not as simple as saying you were ok with the lockdown, because that’s not how a government can plan…the vaccine is a much clearer road to freedom and normality than any alternative, like more lockdowns, and it’s certainly better than any alternative where you have to declare yourself isolated and prove that to the state so as to be given partial freedoms from any potential vaccine mandate

 

[Narasumas]

What did we do in 2020 when there was an overflow? We reacted, either through federal intervention, pop-up overflow hospital capacity, etc.

You don’t just say “no” on a basis of discrimination. And when I say discrimination, I say that focusing soley outside of probable treatment. I understand doctors make decisions, and have to turn some away while treating others. That is based on treatability, not on external factors.

To put this in further context…if I had two severe COVID patients come through…both identical in their level of critical illness levels. One is vaccinated, one is not. Is the doctor going to say, “well, you COULD’VE prevented this Mr. unvaccinated, but since you didn’t, I will not treat you” but I WILL treat this person who did get vaccinated. Even though both sit in the same boat today as I stand here as a doctor, I’m going to base my treatment choices on external factors other than my ability to effectively treat. That shouldn’t happen.

 

[JumpMan1981]

Yes, we do that because there's enough treatment capacity to go around. The large amount of COVID patients are causing a situation of scarce resources.

How do you, as a leader, manage these scarce resources when not everyone can get everything that they need? Doctors "treat who are treatable" when there is enough treatment to go around. When COVID overruns a hospital, there isn't enough. What do you do?

Your best. You do your best.

Seems like an inevitability that some poor bugger is unvaxxed for valid reasons and gets left to die because "we don't treat the unvaccinated here."

This is delicate stuff that can easily blow up and go horribly wrong. Not just for the individual but also from a public perception point of view.

 

[Rentahamster]

If you looked at Internet discourse in the early 2010s you would see an awful lot of conversation around the idea of choice, freedom and consent. It's amazing how quickly some people have done a 180 on all that. It's troubling to be honest.

There still is. That's what this whole situation is about. Anti-vaxxers want the freedom to choose to not get a life-saving vaccine and thus endanger themselves and the rest of society. The rest of us want the freedom to live our lives as normal without having to put our lives at risk because of the careless actions of others.

I choose to not put my life and my family's life at risk because of other people's mistakes. I want the freedom to open my business as normal and travel the world freely, but I can't do that because all the sick COVID people are making that impossible. I do not consent to put my own life and health at risk by allowing others who are a danger to public health to work for me or enter my place of business. The rights of others to kill themselves and put society in danger due to their bad understanding of the Constitution, history, and math does not supersede my own right to not be impacted by their decisions.

 

[funkygunther]

I'm also wondering if there has ever been any self-reflection from government, media, celebrities and whoever does marketing for these pharmaceutical companies?

Why is the situation SO bad that people simply don't trust these vaccines. It's not a USA only thing. I am surprised when I see stuff coming from friends in Poland and Slovakia and also Netherlands who I would have never ever thought of as being in the anti-vax side. It seems that in every country in the world there is some degree of hesitancy. So its not really political.

Its like these pillars of society eroded the public trust but now think they can speak with authority and be obeyed without any kind of acknowledgement that they have been dishonest before. I think thats a bit of a problem. An unwillingness to say "we've been wrong before and we take responsibility for that but let's do better now."

Look at how eager mainstream outlets and even some government people have been to drag and humiliate Nicki Minaj? Surely there is a better way to handle that? Like if you wanted to ensure that she gets more support then the way things have played out is about right. If you wanted to educate her then why not do that offline and in private and see if she at least doesn't say crazy shit anymore? Nah let's try so hard to make an example of her that see gets sympathy and we seem suspiciously vindictive.

Wasnt swollen nutsack and impotence a potential vaccine side effect? I vaguely remember the documentation that was handed out at the vaccination center and Bells palsy was the real "WTF" one that I remember.

that you were given documentation that showed you potential side effects or things to watch out for after getting the vaccine is being open and honest about it

also Minaj’s battle is a very public one, the funny thing was that the White House (the civil department, not the president) actually reached out to Minaj to discuss her views, Minaj tweeted in public that this would be her Legally Blonde moment…but it turned out the discussion would be about vaccine safety with a health worker, probably just a generic hotline

all of that above paragraph is just a distraction, all anti-vax stuff is

 

[JumpMan1981]

There still is. That's what this whole situation is about. Anti-vaxxers want the freedom to choose to not get a life-saving vaccine and thus endanger themselves and the rest of society. The rest of us want the freedom to live our lives as normal without having to put our lives at risk because of the careless actions of others.

I choose to not put my life and my family's life at risk because of other people's mistakes. I want the freedom to open my business as normal and travel the world freely, but I can't do that because all the sick COVID people are making that impossible. I do not consent to put my own life and health at risk by allowing others who are a danger to public health to work for me or enter my place of business. The rights of others to kill themselves and put society in danger due to their bad understanding of the Constitution, history, and math does not supersede my own right to not be impacted by their decisions.

How far would you be comfortable to take that?

1 is just let everyone decide whatever.
3 is restrict some minor freedoms without vaccination.
5 is round up unvaccinated people and inject them against their will.

Where would you roughly be on such a 1 to 5 scale. Would it ever be acceptable to go to 5?

My guess is you are like a 4? It would not be OK to literally force the vaccine into an unwilling parties arm but it would be fine to maybe stop them from being able to earn money until they are vaxxed?

 

[Rentahamster]

What did we do in 2020 when there was an overflow? We reacted, either through federal intervention, pop-up overflow hospital capacity, etc.

You don't think we're doing that now too?

When you look at hospitals in Idaho now, there are even more people hospitalized than at the peak of COVID in 2020.

https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/idaho.division.of.public.health/viz/DPHIdahoCOVID-19Dashboard/Home

To put this in further context…if I had two severe COVID patients come through…both identical in their level of critical illness levels. One is vaccinated, one is not. Is the doctor going to say, “well, you COULD’VE prevented this Mr. unvaccinated, but since you didn’t, I will not treat you” but I WILL treat this person who did get vaccinated. Even though both sit in the same boat today as I stand here as a doctor, I’m going to base my treatment choices on external factors other than my ability to effectively treat. That shouldn’t happen.

Bad hypothetical. Doctors don't think like that.

Your best. You do your best.

Quit with the platitudes and start giving realistic examples and protocols.

How do you "do your best" when there's not enough resources to allocate to the wounded? What does that look like? If you don't have a feasible and realistic answer for that, then "do your best" is a worthless sentiment.

 

[Narasumas]

Bad hypothetical. Doctors don't think like that

Thank you for making my point then. So why start with limiting care to (treatable) COVID patients at all then? You can’t pick and choose. I see this shit all over this site from a select group of posters who think there can be selectivism in where we choose to apply our personal beliefs to laws, policies or procedures.

 

[Rentahamster]

How far would you be comfortable to take that?

1 is just let everyone decide whatever.
3 is restrict some minor freedoms without vaccination.
5 is round up unvaccinated people and inject them against their will.

Where would you roughly be on such a 1 to 5 scale. Would it ever be acceptable to go to 5?

My guess is you are like a 4? It would not be OK to literally force the vaccine into an unwilling parties arm but it would be fine to maybe stop them from being able to earn money until they are vaxxed?

Of course it's not acceptable to go to 5, and the fact that you even entertain that as a possibility shows how paranoid your vaccination boogeyman scenario is.

We already know what happens with 1 through 3, on your scale. An unacceptable amount of people die and civilization grinds to a halt because we don't have enough space to take care of all the sick people.

The current law, as it stands, does not stop people from "being able to earn money". They can earn money however they want as long as they don't put other people in danger, and employers aren't obligated to hire someone who is a walking talking health hazard.

 

[Rentahamster]

Thank you for making my point then.

What point? You haven't provided any solutions to the problem of what to do when there's not enough care to go around.

 

[poppabk]

What point? You haven't provided any solutions to the problem of what to do when there's not enough care to go around.

The accepted procedure I would think is to treat the most at risk and the most likely to be successful treated first. The vaccinated definitely have the latter, the former would be a case by case basis.