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[legacyzero]

anybody who thinks "non violence" is the only path to social equity needs to read the book "This Non Violent Stuff'll Get You Killed"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/07/28/this-nonviolent-stuffll-get-you-killed/?utm_term=.38b58b1882c6

It's amazing how unread on the history of civil rights movements in this country many of you are. Just speaking straight ignorance in this thread.

Disingenuous.

Even if the masses were to accept that violence was acceptable at ANY level, let's not omit that Antifa isn't just performing violence towards the 'alt-right'. They're doing it in every direction. And it's bullshit. If they want to equate themselves to a Civil Rights era movement, maybe they'll want to start focusing exclusively on those who seek to violate/remove those rights?

It's not ignorance in this thread. It's reason.

anti-fa is not one person why are you describing them like one person.

What do you even mean? I feel my post was pretty straight forward, and you're reading it wrong I guess. I mean Antifa as a movement. At least expand and criticize my post instead of calling it what it isn't.

? He said "they're."

LOL Yeah that confused me.

 

[Principate]

Disingenuous.

Even if the masses were to accept that violence was acceptable at ANY level, let's not omit that Antifa isn't just performing violence towards the 'alt-right'. They're doing it in every direction. And it's bullshit. If they want to equate themselves to a Civil Rights era movement, maybe they'll want to start focusing exclusively on those who seek to violate/remove those rights?

anti-fa is not one person why are you describing them like one person.

 

[El_Tiguere]

FBI and DHS classify Antifa as domestic terrorists and warn of future attacks. Cool we're all safe awesome this isn't problematic in the slightest.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/01/antifa-charlottesville-violence-fbi-242235

Mission accomplished for the propaganda masters on both sides.

Now Imperial Corporate Democrats can label any status quo protester as a violent fringe threat that needs to be contained (to protect the status quo for their donors), and the right-wing regime can actively silence dissent through brute force and the full weight of law enforcement/intelligence apparatus.

Next step is for police to get "tips" through social media on who might be affiliated with ANTIFA. I'm sure those people won't be missed, and we will all be "better off" for it.

 

[jtb]

Sorry, no. These people are worms, they are extremely susceptible to intimidation and atomization through ass-kickings.

Antifa's calculation is as follows. Beating up fascists who are openly marching as fascists is a good tactic because it attacks fascism in the only way that has been proven to actually work.

The media and the public at large are useless in combating fascism, as has been seen in 20th century history but also in cases like Richard Spencer being called dapper and charming or apparently like when the Quebec media was easily led into a white nationalist narrative because they are idiots.

So if you beat the shit out of these people in the streets, you force them back into their sad grubby basements and cut off their political power. If you can make fascists feel like they aren't safe spreading their views in public, they're fucked, because the public is never going to actually be on their side - at worst, the media will spend all of its energy whining about antifa instead of fascists.

Fascists are never going to have a Gandhi moment where they convince people of the justice of their cause through nonviolent action. They're not going to convince people to turn to fascism by getting punched in the face by antifa kids on television. No one is going to flip on CNN and see some neonazi getting his nose broken and think "wow, the neonazis seem like the good guys here, I should probably look into this whole fascism thing."

So antifa takes the heat and get called far-left violent radicals and communist guerillas and whateverthefuck else. Trevor Noah whines about how people will see antifa as vegan ISIS. Liberals get to feel very clever that they recognize and condemn 'extremism' on both sides of the political spectrum. Meanwhile, the fascists are back to cowering in their basements, and the world is a better place. They haven't gained power through public sympathy and they haven't been allowed to gain power by coalescing into a legitimate public movement.

In other words, antifa is actually extremely good.

You seem to be ignoring a rather critical third party in all of your calculations: the state.

Where do they fit in? Obviously, you seem content to undermine the government and the state through extrajudicial violence. Do you think that the state is irredeemably repressive/complicit and must also be destroyed? Do you think that the state should not exist at all? I'm confused as to what happens next in your scenario here. Extrajudicial violence is inherently illegal and restricts basic liberties like free expression. You certainly don't seem very interested in creating lasting political change through the state, so I'm wondering whether you think it serves a purpose at all given you don't have any time for its protections.

 

[crisdecuba]

anti-fa is not one person why are you describing them like one person.

? He said "they're."

 

[mlclmtckr]

Oooh, online testimony. On the other hand we have a violent clash that tore apart a major city and killed a nice young woman, but OK. Got your online testimony.

They haven't prevented shit. They've escalated it.

So, two things.

One, you are blaming anti-fascist activists for a fascist's murder of an anti-fascist activist. Do better.

Two, how about this account from Cornel West saying that lives were literally saved by antifa:

https://www.democracynow.org/2017/8/14/cornel_west_rev_toni_blackmon_clergy

CORNEL WEST: Absolutely. You had a number of the courageous students, of all colors, at the University of Virginia who were protesting against the neofascists themselves. The neofascists had their own ammunition. And this is very important to keep in mind, because the police, for the most part, pulled back. The next day, for example, those 20 of us who were standing, many of them clergy, we would have been crushed like cockroaches if it were not for the anarchists and the anti-fascists who approached, over 300, 350 anti-fascists. We just had 20. And we’re singing "This Little light of Mine," you know what I mean? So that the—

AMY GOODMAN: "Antifa" meaning anti-fascist.

CORNEL WEST: The anti-fascists, and then, crucial, the anarchists, because they saved our lives, actually. We would have been completely crushed, and I’ll never forget that. Meaning what? Meaning that you had the police holding back, on the one hand, so we couldn’t even get arrested. We were there to get arrested. We couldn’t get arrested, because the police had pulled back, and just allowing fellow citizens to go at each other, you see, and with all of the consequences that would follow therefrom.

 

[shawnbuddy]

So, your implication is that an ideology based on violence will just disappear without causing damage as long as there is no counter element that is willing to respond to violence.

I really don't want to go down the slippery slope of "let's just suppress things that trigger white supremacists so they'll shut up."

No, not "respond to" violence. "Respond with" violence. Violence puts the conversation on their level, so to speak, and makes it a fight they can win.

This idea that these guys are sad grubby basement dwellers is just wishful thinking. They're out training with firearms in the woods right now. They're dangerous and can do some damage.

 

[GustyGardens]

Actually antifa are extremely good.

They don't make an effort to play nice with the media or play the public perception game.

They don't give a fuck about Trevor Noah concern trolling or neogaf political pundits wringing their hands.

Antifa are the public body's natural reaction to a virulent disease that the normal immune system is incapable of dealing with.

They exist to intimidate and sideline fascist groups. Which they have done very well in the last few weeks.

People posting on the internet about how breaking Starbucks windows is as bad as advocating genocide are just straight up not part of antifa's area of concern. Those people can play make believe West Wing on message boards and pretend like all we need is vigorous debate. Those people can whine about tone and discourse because their rights are being protected by hard line anti-fascist groups.

You might not appreciate it, it might make you uncomfortable. In the same way that a person might not enjoy having a fever. But a fever is a necessary bit of discomfort in the pursuit of eradicating an infection, and antifa are a necessary bit of social disruption in the pursuit of, well, also eradicating an infection.

Some not-very-funny both sides lib comedian or a bunch of extremely online posters are not going to like antifa because, unlike almost any other actor or group in American politics (including Nazis, btw) they aren't interested in getting the media on their side. Leave sweet talking reporters to the Richard Spencers of the world - all it takes is a nice suit and recent haircut for mainstream media outlets to take people like him seriously. The media can't protect you from fascism, and constantly worrying about but how will this look in the media isn't actually helpful at all.

Not everything is a comment section battle. Not every political question is settled with upvotes and downvotes. Trevor Noah doesn't like how antifa cut cultural gatekeepers like him out of the public conversation. He (and people like him) want politics to happen in hashtags and televised debates and op ed columns.

They want the argument to happen in the space where pundits, comedians and journalists set the agenda. To them, political action that occurs outside of some ill-defined 'mainstream discourse' of party slogans and media self-succ is inherently threatening and should be opposed as vigorously as actual fascists.

Trevor Noah and people like him will always be concerned with how antifa looks and who is winning 'the argument' because it's a political method that sees people like him as useless.

That's all well and good, but the issue is that the Antifa are unorganized. It's hard to rise up for a revolution when the public doesn't know what you're revolting against. The majority of American's don't understand who or what Antifa is, or why they're doing what they're doing. They see a group of violent people in masks doing bad things.

Without a public facing message the cause becomes lost in an echo chamber. You and I understand what's going, but Joe Somebody from Oregon doesn't have a clue. Tell him what you stand for and why you're beating the shit out of this dude.

 

[jimmypython]

Actually antifa are extremely good.

They don't make an effort to play nice with the media or play the public perception game.

They don't give a fuck about Trevor Noah concern trolling or neogaf political pundits wringing their hands.

Antifa are the public body's natural reaction to a virulent disease that the normal immune system is incapable of dealing with.

They exist to intimidate and sideline fascist groups. Which they have done very well in the last few weeks.

People posting on the internet about how breaking Starbucks windows is as bad as advocating genocide are just straight up not part of antifa's area of concern. Those people can play make believe West Wing on message boards and pretend like all we need is vigorous debate. Those people can whine about tone and discourse because their rights are being protected by hard line anti-fascist groups.

You might not appreciate it, it might make you uncomfortable. In the same way that a person might not enjoy having a fever. But a fever is a necessary bit of discomfort in the pursuit of eradicating an infection, and antifa are a necessary bit of social disruption in the pursuit of, well, also eradicating an infection.

Some not-very-funny both sides lib comedian or a bunch of extremely online posters are not going to like antifa because, unlike almost any other actor or group in American politics (including Nazis, btw) they aren't interested in getting the media on their side. Leave sweet talking reporters to the Richard Spencers of the world - all it takes is a nice suit and recent haircut for mainstream media outlets to take people like him seriously. The media can't protect you from fascism, and constantly worrying about but how will this look in the media isn't actually helpful at all.

Not everything is a comment section battle. Not every political question is settled with upvotes and downvotes. Trevor Noah doesn't like how antifa cut cultural gatekeepers like him out of the public conversation. He (and people like him) want politics to happen in hashtags and televised debates and op ed columns.

They want the argument to happen in the space where pundits, comedians and journalists set the agenda. To them, political action that occurs outside of some ill-defined 'mainstream discourse' of party slogans and media self-succ is inherently threatening and should be opposed as vigorously as actual fascists.

Trevor Noah and people like him will always be concerned with how antifa looks and who is winning 'the argument' because it's a political method that sees people like him as useless.

isn't this textbook anarchism?

 

[Deepwater]

Disingenuous.

Even if the masses were to accept that violence was acceptable at ANY level, let's not omit that Antifa isn't just performing violence towards the 'alt-right'. They're doing it in every direction. And it's bullshit. If they want to equate themselves to a Civil Rights era movement, maybe they'll want to start focusing exclusively on those who seek to violate/remove those rights?

then you can make that distinction. People are in this thread talking about violence is never the answer for social justice. That's disingenuous as fuck to me.

They haven't killed anyone, they haven't blown anything up, they haven't ran anybody over. Unless you can point me in the direction of where that's happened, comparing them to white supremacists and neo nazis is disingenuous just because they like to fight people at rallies and break windows

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

James Alex Fields. I can see where the lack of nuance in regards to Noah's comments comes in. He says people don't like Antifa violence, some of GAF is like "He said both sides are the same!" I say Antifa giving the Nazis a sparring partner has escalated their violence, some of GAF is like "He said Antifa killed Heather Heyer!" Both are patently absurd.

Your bullshit comes from the victim blaming you are contributing to. It's like saying because sexual predators exist, if a person wears a short skirt, they deserved to be raped for provoking their terrible nature. People shouldn't shut up because it might cause bad people to do bad things. Put the blame where it belongs.

 

[evilromero]

He makes a very solid argument. Not sure what the issue is. Fox News is a racist bigoted network and platform but they can't be overtly racist am bigoted (all the time). So they frame things in a way that creates a new boogeyman to distract from the very real ideology or physical threat. Unfortunately they are the leading cable news network so it's worth pointing out to Antifa that whatever they do this shitbag network will be working overtime to vilify them.

 

[legacyzero]

That's all well and good, but the issue is that the Antifa are unorganized. It's hard to rise up for a revolution when the public doesn't know what you're revolting against. The majority of American's don't understand who or what Antifa is, or why they're doing what they're doing. They see a group of violent people in masks doing bad things.

Without a public facing message the cause becomes lost in an echo chamber. You and I understand what's going, but Joe Somebody from Oregon doesn't have a clue. Tell him what you stand for and why you're beating the shit out of this dude.

Yep. Pretty much what Trevor said too.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Did anybody actually read the article? He said people *see them as* "vegan Isis," not that that's what they are. And he's right: by engaging in violence they aren't winning supporters, as cathartic as it is to see Neonazis clocked in the face.

Most antifa are effective; those in the tiny minority that act like bad guys, will end up adding fuel to Trump's shitty narrative.

I didn't know who these guys were before the clocked a high profile Nazi. Speak for yourself, they may scare moderates who see things as "both sides", but Antifa doesn't scare me for some reason. Go figure

 

[JustenP88]

He makes a very solid argument. Not sure what the issue is. Fox News is a racist bigoted network and platform but they can't be overtly racist am bigoted (all the time). So they frame things in a way that creates a new boogeyman to distract from the very real ideology or physical threat. Unfortunately they are the leading cable news network so it's worth pointing out to Antifa that whatever they do this shitbag network will be working overtime to vilify them.

Noted Antifa leader Hillary Clinton could've told them that. Didn't need Trevor Noah to try and make that point.

 

[shamanick]

He makes a very solid argument. Not sure what the issue is. Fox News is a racist bigoted network and platform but they can't be overtly racist am bigoted (all the time). So they frame things in a way that creates a new boogeyman to distract from the very real ideology or physical threat. Unfortunately they are the leading cable news network so it's worth pointing out to Antifa that whatever they do this shitbag network will be working overtime to vilify them.

Yes I'm sure we can sway Fox News with reason and logic. They don't care about the truth they will push any narrative they want. There's been a constant drumbeat about the "violent left" in right-wing media for years, regardless of the fact that right-wing violence is something like 85% of all terrorist activity.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

isn't this textbook anarchism?

Is that a bad thing 🤔

 

[mlclmtckr]

That's all well and good, but the issue is that the Antifa are unorganized. It's hard to rise up for a revolution when the public doesn't know what you're revolting against. The majority of American's don't understand who or what Antifa is, or why they're doing what they're doing. They see a group of violent people in masks doing bad things.

Without a public facing message the cause becomes lost in an echo chamber. You and I understand what's going, but Joe Somebody from Oregon doesn't have a clue. Tell him what you stand for and why you're beating the shit out of this dude.

I covered some of this in my later post but basically, antifa aren't generally concerned with you or me or the majority of Americans. Their strategy is directly concerned with the fascists, who they want to forcibly remove from the public discourse. If we or the media condemn or demonise them, they don't care, because that is not their area of action.

It's not about the media or public perception.

 

[shawnbuddy]

Your bullshit comes from the victim blaming you are contributing to. It's like saying because sexual predators exist, if a person wears a short skirt, they deserved to be raped for provoking their terrible nature. People shouldn't shut up because it might cause bad people to do bad things. Put the blame where it belongs.

I just put the blame on James Alex Fields, where it belongs. But I'm not going to ignore the fact that rumbling with Nazis has just created more and more violent rumbles. That's nuance, something that seems lost in this thread.

 

[off duty ninja]

I covered some of this in my later post but basically, antifa aren't generally concerned with you or me or the majority of Americans. Their strategy is directly concerned with the fascists, who they want to forcibly remove from the public discourse. If we or the media condemn or demonise them, they don't care, because that is not their area of action.

It's not about the media or public perception.

And they are not accomplishing their goal so maybe they should rethink their tactics.

 

[tbm24]

I get the view point he has I just don't agree with it, like if the debate was anything else sure we should be more respectful. This is a group that exists to stand against nazi, I don't like I live in a world where Nazi is an ideology we should respect. Antifa is just a group of people against nazi, that's not even political as being a nazi is a choice. But I think the biggest story is ever since trump used Antifa as a scapegoat so many people have taken the bait. This is why fake news is a term, this is why people are more mad about outrage then about a murder, this is why some nazi are good people. Fuck America, fuck the fact this is where we have to draw the line but not the actual nazi.

I'm just not understanding the idea that people didn't draw the line with nazis. antifa generated headlines from outlets, but not even remotely to the extent Of coverage the neo nazis, alt right organizers, and president who gave them a pass generated.

 

[shamanick]

The most ridiculous idea pushed in this thread is that somehow Antifa is responsible for all the violence, and if they weren't around all the polite Nazis and white supremacists would peacefully discuss their ideas. This is categorically untrue. The threat of violence from the right is constant at these rallies.

 

[stupei]

James Alex Fields. I can see where the lack of nuance in regards to Noah's comments comes in. He says people don't like Antifa violence, some of GAF is like "He said both sides are the same!" I say Antifa giving the Nazis a sparring partner has escalated their violence, some of GAF is like "He said Antifa killed Heather Heyer!" Both are patently absurd.

You can quote me directly.

You are the one who brought up Heather Heyer to make your point about escalation caused by Antifa. If you don't want to be thought of as saying such absurd and horifically offensive things, you might not want to bring up someone's murder as a chance to score points for your side of a debate.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

That's all well and good, but the issue is that the Antifa are unorganized. It's hard to rise up for a revolution when the public doesn't know what you're revolting against. The majority of American's don't understand who or what Antifa is, or why they're doing what they're doing. They see a group of violent people in masks doing bad things.

Without a public facing message the cause becomes lost in an echo chamber. You and I understand what's going, but Joe Somebody from Oregon doesn't have a clue. Tell him what you stand for and why you're beating the shit out of this dude.

Antifa aren't even strictly in normal political grounds, it's Trump who decided to tie them to all liberal movement as a boogeyman and people are eating that shit up.

 

[legacyzero]

then you can make that distinction. People are in this thread talking about violence is never the answer for social justice. That's disingenuous as fuck to me.

They haven't killed anyone, they haven't blown anything up, they haven't ran anybody over. Unless you can point me in the direction of where that's happened, comparing them to white supremacists and neo nazis is disingenuous just because they like to fight people at rallies and break windows

I dont disagree with you on the "eventually reaching violence" aspect. I fully agree with you on that. I used to defend NOT punching Nazis. But after Charlottesville? Yeah, fuck that, punch away. That's 40 miles from my home town.

What I'm saying is- the optics of their actions. Beating up reporters, smashing and breaking shit, violence on anyone who even remotely supported Trump for reasons other than being a racist asshole.

The optics of that isn't going to win over support. Which fucking sucks, because even Republicans can agree that Nazis are filth. But when youre a leaderless group causing chaos that comes across as misdirected and random, while wearing black and carrying Communist or Anarchist-like attire/ logos, etc, to those who know little about them. Well you're just going to get labeled as a terrorist group instead of an activist one.

 

[jtb]

Is that a bad thing ��

Depends. Do you want more state protections for minorities or fewer?

The destruction of the state may be a policy goal, but it's not one that will ever be accomplished and will lead to the end of civil rights and liberties. Since someone has to protect those rights.

 

[MotionBlue]

Here's the thing - I can almost see the argument for punching a neonazi. If a dude is throwing up sieg heils and saying jews need to burn, like... I'm not gonna support punching him, but I'm not going to expend effort condemning someone who does.
But there are two problems I've already seen

1. People start applying 'neoNazi' to a broader and broader group. Some go further and say if you're on the right you're supporting NeoNazis. Some go further and say that if you're in the middle, you're basically on the right. Some go further and say that if you're on the left and you don't support punching nazis, you're supporting Nazis. Like... I'm not crazy right, this is bad, right? Especially when violence is apparently a legitimate way to deal with people who are neonazis - when that window broadens, that becomes extremely fucking dangerous

2. Violent elements of Antifa don't only punch neonazis! They smash reporters cameras and fight them, they break shit that belongs to random people who have nothing to do with the protest. They have been known to fight people who just want to listen to controversial speakers, or in at least one case, someone who just looks the part.

How does that not freak some of you out a bit? I don't want anything -near- my political and social ideologies acting that way, I want to thoroughly and empathically condemn these things - and by DOING so, I've been called a moderate/centrist (which is like a slur at this point) or someone who is just in my pacifism, supporting Nazis.

Am I taking crazy pills? This shit is actually bananas.

This has been brought up before, and every time the goal posts will move. There are posters on this board that think America is on the cusp of becoming a fascist state.

Noah was literally born a crime in apartheid South Africa and people are acting like he tolerates Neo-Nazis.

Trump has made people go fucking crazy.

It really has.

Is that a bad thing 🤔

Case in point.

 

[Deepwater]

I just put the blame on James Alex Fields, where it belongs. But I'm not going to ignore the fact that rumbling with Nazis has just created more and more violent rumbles. That's nuance, something that seems lost in this thread.

What I am taking away from this is you're calling him a lone wolf and that the white supremacists he came with have nothing to do with her death.

 

[stupei]

The most ridiculous idea pushed in this thread is that somehow Antifa is responsible for all the violence, and if they weren't around all the polite Nazis and white supremacists would peacefully discuss their ideas. This is categorically untrue. The threat of violence from the right is constant at these rallies.

They staple flags to two-by-fours because they're patriotic, though.

 

[enzo_gt]

The segment in it's entirety has way more contingencies and makes a pretty rounded argument for the headline being labelled as a controversy.

I agree with Trevor, those who are inciting violence for the sake of parity with neo-Nazis or shits and giggles (i.e. the anime guys) aren't doing much to help and are indeed changing the perception of the group as a whole. You're just hoodlums that are energizing and validating what were once false equivocations between neo-Nazis and Antifa. But, again, as Trevor says and shows, this is a small segment of an unorganized body with many different subgroups with different goals.

God I can't fucking believe I'm talking about neo-Nazis in 2017. Also great thread to read for the hot takes that didn't look further than the sensationalist headline.

 

[off duty ninja]

The most ridiculous idea pushed in this thread is that somehow Antifa is responsible for all the violence, and if they weren't around all the polite Nazis and white supremacists would peacefully discuss their ideas. This is categorically untrue. The threat of violence from the right is constant at these rallies.

No, if they weren't around we would just be discussing how fucking stupid the nazis look at their little sausage parties. If there is nobody for these losers (nazis) to fight with then their threats are completely hollow. antifa is just giving them the fight that they BOTH want.

 

[JustenP88]

And they are not accomplishing their goal so maybe they should rethink their tactics.

"White Supremacists aren't gone yet, Trump is still president, everyone go home and eat cake."

No, if they weren't around we would just be discussing how fucking stupid the nazis look at their little sausage parties. If there is nobody for these losers (nazis) to fight with then their threats are completely hollow. antifa is just giving them the fight that they BOTH want.

What they want is to hurt/eliminate people of color and LGBT Americans. You think they're just a bunch of rowdy boys looking for a fun scuffle in the streets?

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Lol at people thinking you can reason with nazis and racists.

 

[Deepwater]

I dont disagree with you on the "eventually reaching violence" aspect. I fully agree with you on that. I used to defend NOT punching Nazis. But after Charlottesville? Yeah, fuck that, punch away. That's 40 miles from my home town.

What I'm saying is- the optics of their actions. Beating up reporters, smashing and breaking shit, violence on anyone who even remotely supported Trump for reasons other than being a racist asshole.

The optics of that isn't going to win over support. Which fucking sucks, because even Republicans can agree that Nazis are filth. But when youre a leaderless group causing chaos that comes across as misdirected and random, while wearing black and carrying Communist or Anarchist-like attire/ logos, etc, to those who know little about them. Well you're just going to get labeled as a terrorist group instead of an activist one.

And if they don't care about that shit, who cares? If anything, being painted as domestic terrorists probably justify their ideology further.

 

[off duty ninja]

"White Supremacists aren't gone yet, Trump is still president, everyone go home and eat cake."

"I don't have an intelligent retort, so I am going to say something stupid and meaningless to the conversation taking place, I win or something."

What they want is to hurt/eliminate people of color and LGBT Americans. You think they're just a bunch of rowdy boys looking for a fun scuffle in the streets?

And when they hurt people charge them with hate crimes and throw the book at them. When they are just carrying stupid fucking tiki torches and being belligerent assholes in public they aren't actually committing any crimes. Other than the crime of being a complete fucking loser.

 

[Lunar15]

Lol at people thinking you can reason with nazis and racists.

Gonna stop you right here for one second. I don't think we can reason with the people at these rallies, but we HAVE to reason with the people who aren't there, don't agree with what they're doing, but do nothing to actually stop those things from happening, or worse, harbor the seeds of what eventually becomes full blown white supremacy.

In that sense, I understand completely where Trevor Noah is coming from. The eternal question is how do you convince these people to turn over their beliefs and make sacrifices...willingly? I don't have the answer for that, unfortunately.

There's a way. I'm living proof of it.

 

[shamanick]

No, if they weren't around we would just be discussing how fucking stupid the nazis look at their little sausage parties. If there is nobody for these losers (nazis) to fight with then their threats are completely hollow. antifa is just giving them the fight that they BOTH want.

I guess the people who don't get to experience these rallies first-hand in another town get to make fun of Nazis from the comfort of their keyboards, but when you have actual, right-wing violence happening in your town (as I do) and a white supremacist rally happens, do you show up to counter-protest? After the violence starts, do you defend yourself?

So what's your solution to deal with Fox News? Raid their place and beat the shit out of everyone there?

(which, funnily enough, would be a more coordinated plan than what Antifa currently does)

My solution is not to modify my behavior based on what I think Fox will report

 

[Nightbird]

Yes I'm sure we can sway Fox News with reason and logic. They don't care about the truth they will push any narrative they want. There's been a constant drumbeat about the "violent left" in right-wing media for years, regardless of the fact that right-wing violence is something like 85% of all terrorist activity.

So what's your solution to deal with Fox News? Raid their place and beat the shit out of everyone there?

(which, funnily enough, would be a more coordinated plan than what Antifa currently does)

 

[Nokterian]

I dont disagree with you on the "eventually reaching violence" aspect. I fully agree with you on that. I used to defend NOT punching Nazis. But after Charlottesville? Yeah, fuck that, punch away. That's 40 miles from my home town.

What I'm saying is- the optics of their actions. Beating up reporters, smashing and breaking shit, violence on anyone who even remotely supported Trump for reasons other than being a racist asshole.

The optics of that isn't going to win over support. Which fucking sucks, because even Republicans can agree that Nazis are filth. But when youre a leaderless group causing chaos that comes across as misdirected and random, while wearing black and carrying Communist or Anarchist-like attire/ logos, etc, to those who know little about them. Well you're just going to get labeled as a terrorist group instead of an activist one.

You think in world war 2 they would sit down and talk? Nazi's are and will be always scum there ideology is to kill you when they can and they will no matter if you are white, it happend that's there purpose that's there goal.

That's what being anti fascist is about, you don't want fascism right? You don't want a new holocaust? New concentration camps? I go to extend that i hated nazi's the moment i learned about it. I hated neo nazi's when i saw them here in the netherlands there group are called NVU..New Volks Order..meaning when they can they will find and use there ideology. I will not let them do it, it isn't free speech if you haven't learned a damn thing about history or nazi's in particulier then you should read it up again and watch some documentary's.

 

[sphagnum]

FBI and DHS classify Antifa as domestic terrorists and warn of future attacks. Cool we're all safe awesome this isn't problematic in the slightest.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/01/antifa-charlottesville-violence-fbi-242235

Hey maybe if the state did its job and hunted down Nazis as terrorists there wouldn't need to be Antifa.

 

[JustenP88]

"I don't have an intelligent retort, so I am going to say something stupid and meaningless to the conversation taking place, I win or something."

There was nothing of substance in the post I responded to. Just more nonsense attempting to direct blame for the rise and normalization of white supremacist fascists away from white supremacist fascists.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

The segment in it's entirety has way more contingencies and makes a pretty rounded argument for the headline being labelled as a controversy.

I agree with Trevor, those who are inciting violence for the sake of parity with neo-Nazis or shits and giggles (i.e. the anime guys) aren't doing much to help and are indeed changing the perception of the group as a whole. You're just hoodlums that are energizing and validating what were once false equivocations between neo-Nazis and Antifa. But, again, as Trevor says and shows, this is a small segment of an unorganized body with many different subgroups with different goals.

God I can't fucking believe I'm talking about neo-Nazis in 2017. Also great thread to read for the hot takes that didn't look further than the sensationalist headline.

There's been lots of talk in this thread that discusses why what you took away from the show is a problem. Don't just read two pages of a thread and talk like no one has thought critically about this.

 

[jtb]

The only justification, imo, for extrajudicial vigilante violence (i.e. not self-defense) is if the state has collapsed and has failed in its duty to protect its citizens (i.e. POC, LGBTQ, etc.). Now, I think you can make a credible argument that the police forces in many jurisdictions are inequitable enough to make that violence morally justified.

The question that I have that antifa has wholly failed to answer is: what next?

Either you choose to reform the state to protect those that are not protected, or you destroy the state itself.

I just don't understand 1. what Antifa's goals are (it seems like there are two wildly divergent camps within antifa: the far-left and the anarchists) and 2. how they can ever hope to accomplish them. Otherwise, they are just a group without an ideology that inflicts wanton extrajudicial violence? Very 'Anonymous' to me.

 

[tbm24]

I guess the people who don't get to experience these rallies first-hand in another town get to make fun of Nazis from the comfort of their keyboards, but when you have actual, right-wing violence happening in your town (as I do) and a white supremacist rally happens, do you show up to counter-protest? After the violence starts, do you defend yourself?

You can defend yourself, the whole point of the segment this thread is about, is torching a car or storefront doesn't fall under that category.

 

[mlclmtckr]

You seem to be ignoring a rather critical third party in all of your calculations: the state.

Where do they fit in? Obviously, you seem content to undermine the government and the state through extrajudicial violence. Do you think that the state is irredeemably repressive/complicit and must also be destroyed? Do you think that the state should not exist at all? I'm confused as to what happens next in your scenario here. Extrajudicial violence is inherently illegal and restricts basic liberties like free expression. You certainly don't seem very interested in creating lasting political change through the state, so I'm wondering whether you think it serves a purpose at all given you don't have any time for its protections.

Well I'm not sure that necessarily follows.

When people engage in civil disobedience, through let's say a sit-in or a traffic stoppage, they are intentionally breaking the law to enact political change. Trespassing and jaywalking are inherently illegal and restrict basic property rights and safety procedures. That doesn't mean that every person who engages in a sit-in or traffic stoppage wants to overthrow the government.

Some antifa are definitely revolutionary anarchists and communists. There are also liberals and democratic socialists and politically agnostic antifascists and communitarians and whatever else. Antifa is a tactic, the people who subscribe to it don't necessarily want to violently overthrow the government any more than nonviolent protesters do.

 

[whytemyke]

anti-fa is not one person why are you describing them like one person.

DON'T YOU TALK SHIT ABOUT MY AUNT IFA!!!

 

[off duty ninja]

I guess the people who don't get to experience these rallies first-hand in another town get to make fun of Nazis from the comfort of their keyboards, but when you have actual, right-wing violence happening in your town (as I do) and a white supremacist rally happens, do you show up to counter-protest? After the violence starts, do you defend yourself?



My solution is not to modify my behavior based on what I think Fox will report

Have I said nobody should defend themselves? By all means defend yourself by any means necessary. Picking a fight isn't defending yourself though.

 

[legacyzero]

You think in world war 2 they would sit down and talk? Nazi's are and will be always scum there ideology is to kill you when they can and they will no matter if you are white, it happend that's there purpose that's there goal.

That's what being anti fascist is about, you don't want fascism right? You don't want a new holocaust? New concentration camps? I go to extend that i hated nazi's the moment i learned about it. I hated neo nazi's when i saw them here in the netherlands there group are called NVU..New Volks Order..meaning when they can they will find and use there ideology. I will not let them do it, it isn't free speech if you haven't learned a damn thing about history or nazi's in particulier then you should read it up again and watch some documentary's.

It's like you stopped reading my post at that sentence.

Love you, Nok. But read the whole damn post lmao

 

[stupei]

No, if they weren't around we would just be discussing how fucking stupid the nazis look at their little sausage parties. If there is nobody for these losers (nazis) to fight with then their threats are completely hollow. antifa is just giving them the fight that they BOTH want.

You act like going into someone's city and saying that they don't belong there and you desire their removal from not only that city but the country as a whole, through force if necessary, is not in itself an act of violence deliberately targeted at the minority residents of the communities they are invading.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Lol at people thinking you can reason with nazis and racists.

Some are good people..or sound like dad and grandma..