Yeah, I'll give you that. If only because I really really dislike Another Episode.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Danganronpa 3 The End of Hope's Peak Academy |OT| Nagito Komaeda's Wild Ride Part Two
- Thread starter MetroidPrimeRib
- Start date
- Status
Yeah, I'll give you that. If only because I really really dislike Another Episode.
...To join Chisa's side?
Ludger Kresnik
Member
I dunno, I'm just guessing. Seeing your teacher who you all love killing your class rep who you all love would be a pretty easy way to induce despair. Junko knows from Mikan how much Chisa and Chiaki mean to the class as a whole, so it kinda makes sense? Maybe this'll come after they get their brains fried, idk.
Wouldn't that actually have to be the case for the whole "Junko manipulated class 77 through her own schemes" idea?
Compared to that brainwash anime works just as well. Plus I think Junko would get bored of such a meticulous plan.
Going by DR0, DR2 and DR:AE? Absolutely not.
"Meticulous plan" is her whole thing. She probably became an Ultimate Fashionista in the first place so that she could grow her cultural influence by leaps and bounds to then seed despair more easily.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Are you kidding? This is Junko. The Ultimate Analyst. She had backup plans she didn't even have to use in DR1 because Sayaka drew first blood. She's someone that plans things out so thoroughly that she purposefully leaves gaps open that would allow her to lose because its more entertaining that way.
She's the most meticulous of planners. Ozymandias ain't got shit on her.
UDG didn't betray the main themes of one of the previous games.
A Link to the Past
Banned
OTOH, they encompass almost all the value of the game
ScherzoPrime
Member
I think it sorta reveals that the actual 'hows' of what turned the DR2 cast to despair (or honestly hows in general) were never important to Kodaka. He just chose 'brainwashing anime' because that was convenient and could tie-in some meta element through Mitarai.
I mean tbh if you just like turned the Despair arc stuff that's centered around Future characters into flashbacks in Future (and Future actually does do that a couple times), it'd work a lot better and still preserve the 'mystique' of the early killing game and Tragedy (which let's be frank here, Kodaka never had a 'grand scheme'). As it stands it's just a jumbled mess of fanservice, we don't really get anything out of seeing the first killing game; all it does is raise questions of 'wait, why are they doing this? Why don't they just leave? Where's Juzo and his security?'
I mean there's always been an element of dumb to DR, but the series has generally been good of pushing the Fridge Logic to the periphery. Here, the meat of the show is nothing but questionable plot decisions on a shoestring budget.
Actually you know what this reminds me of? Bioshock: Buried At Sea, which tried to tie Bioshock Infinite directly into Bioshock 1 and ended up feeling really hokey and forced, with several arbitrary retcons, as well as undermining a lot of what made BioShock 1 and Infinite great (or at least 'good' in Infinite's case).
I mean tbh if you just like turned the Despair arc stuff that's centered around Future characters into flashbacks in Future (and Future actually does do that a couple times), it'd work a lot better and still preserve the 'mystique' of the early killing game and Tragedy (which let's be frank here, Kodaka never had a 'grand scheme'). As it stands it's just a jumbled mess of fanservice, we don't really get anything out of seeing the first killing game; all it does is raise questions of 'wait, why are they doing this? Why don't they just leave? Where's Juzo and his security?'
I mean there's always been an element of dumb to DR, but the series has generally been good of pushing the Fridge Logic to the periphery. Here, the meat of the show is nothing but questionable plot decisions on a shoestring budget.
Actually you know what this reminds me of? Bioshock: Buried At Sea, which tried to tie Bioshock Infinite directly into Bioshock 1 and ended up feeling really hokey and forced, with several arbitrary retcons, as well as undermining a lot of what made BioShock 1 and Infinite great (or at least 'good' in Infinite's case).
ScherzoPrime
Member
Man is it weird I miss the Despair series of episode 2? Even if the characters were still broad strokes, there was a certain warmth to it, especially them all bonding over video games. Ever since Junko entered the picture it's just been barreling ahead plot point through plot point, without any sense of why I should care other than some revelation that impacts Future arc.
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
DESPAIR 9
Yaaay Chiaki is saved for another episode. Junko doesn’t give a shit about revealing her plan haha. Wow so Mikan is back. Is she faking it? BS that Peko lost >> Oh God don’t do it Reserce Course dude D: Ehh, with them censoring it, it just doesn't feel the same :/ Chiaki just listen to Nagito D: OMG IT’S THE IMPOSTER’S REAL FACE ¿
. STEPPING STONE FOR HOPE!!!
Oh god poor Chisa and Ryota D: (all the Gundham scenes were pretty great <3) Goodbye? Is she going to become Ryoko soon?! O: Ah nevermind. Damn, living with the despair that you're pretty much responsible for Hope's Peak downfall. Oh finally, Junko will kick Juzo’s ass. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LIKE ANIME, RYOTA. Sonia and Kazuichi supporting Gundham <3 Teruteru you're more likeable here too! Oh God they’re talking pretty happy together, something bad will def happen in a few minutes. Pls don’t die Chiaki. MIKAN I SWEAR IF YOU DO SOMETHING. NONNOONONNOONO. Oooof, but isn’t Chisa despair? D: Crap.
Maaaaan so they're going with brainwashing the DR2 cast after all.
I knew it would be pretty hard for Kodaka to explain how each of them fell into despair one by one in just 11 episodes but they shouldn't have marketed Despair side as "How did they fell into despair?" after all the hype from DR2 if it was going to end up like this. Let's see if Chiaki or Nagito turn out to be the masterminds in Future side.
Yaaay Chiaki is saved for another episode. Junko doesn’t give a shit about revealing her plan haha. Wow so Mikan is back. Is she faking it? BS that Peko lost >> Oh God don’t do it Reserce Course dude D: Ehh, with them censoring it, it just doesn't feel the same :/ Chiaki just listen to Nagito D: OMG IT’S THE IMPOSTER’S REAL FACE ¿
he's better looking than I expected
Oh god poor Chisa and Ryota D: (all the Gundham scenes were pretty great <3) Goodbye? Is she going to become Ryoko soon?! O: Ah nevermind. Damn, living with the despair that you're pretty much responsible for Hope's Peak downfall. Oh finally, Junko will kick Juzo’s ass. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LIKE ANIME, RYOTA. Sonia and Kazuichi supporting Gundham <3 Teruteru you're more likeable here too! Oh God they’re talking pretty happy together, something bad will def happen in a few minutes. Pls don’t die Chiaki. MIKAN I SWEAR IF YOU DO SOMETHING. NONNOONONNOONO. Oooof, but isn’t Chisa despair? D: Crap.
Maaaaan so they're going with brainwashing the DR2 cast after all.
I knew it would be pretty hard for Kodaka to explain how each of them fell into despair one by one in just 11 episodes but they shouldn't have marketed Despair side as "How did they fell into despair?" after all the hype from DR2 if it was going to end up like this. Let's see if Chiaki or Nagito turn out to be the masterminds in Future side.I'm trying to think of how things can be salvaged with this brainwashing bs. Perhaps it flat out won't work on the rest of the class, giving a message about hope and whatnot, leaving Junko to find another way to get them on her side. She'll then maybe use the untested memory erasing methods to make them forget about her and only her, tell Mikan to fake being a good person for a while because she has to "do something first", and then the series will end with her waking up as Ryoko. Maybe a montage of her doing various vague manipulation-related activities (reaching a hand out to various class 77 people or something).
It sucks and is a copout on its own, but it's better than the class seriously falling to despair via brainwashing anime.
It sucks and is a copout on its own, but it's better than the class seriously falling to despair via brainwashing anime.
RecRoulette
Member
The Killer Killer? Wait...don't do it Kodaka!
kuroneko0509
Member
ran by this on reddit:
also this:
kodaka had this planned all along. jokes on us thinking otherwise.
also it's not brainwashing anime, it's the murder of the class. seen even referenced in zero:
also this:
kodaka had this planned all along. jokes on us thinking otherwise.
also it's not brainwashing anime, it's the murder of the class. seen even referenced in zero:
ScherzoPrime
Member
I dunno, at this point just consider it a backstory for the new DR3 characters motivations and just chuck the rest.
It's a shame because for the first few episodes it seemed like he really did care, but ever since Hinata went Izuru it's been clear that he's really been phoning it in.
Trigonometrize.
Member
Regardless, it definitely wasn't obvious that it was pretty much just subliminal message brainwashing (unless the last two episodes try to prove otherwise), and DR3 is what spelled it out, not DR2. It may've been hinted at (in a very Monokuma/Junko-facetious way I might add), but I never came out of DR2 thinking it was all Junko's fault and class 77 should be absolved of all of their crimes which is what DR3 appears to be trying to cement.
ran by this on reddit:
also this:
kodaka had this planned all along. jokes on us thinking otherwise.
also it's not brainwashing anime, it's the murder of the class. seen even referenced in zero:
Refer to this post:
+
SOUDA KAZUICHI: How ... how did this even happen ...?
SOUDA KAZUICHI: Why did we have to become “Super High School Level Despair”?
NAEGI MAKOTO: In the “outside world,” I asked you similar questions. But .... no one would answer me ....
ENOSHIMA JUNKO: I taught them well, it would seem. However, if I were to attempt to answer the question ...
ENOSHIMA JUNKO: People who cling to their admiration of shit like hope and talent are the most fragile people there are!
OWARI AKANE: What...?
ENOSHIMA JUNKO: I guess they’re too distracted looking down on everyone.
ENOSHIMA JUNKO: Knocking those kids down is like taking candy from a baby! There are at least 17,082 ways to do it!
ENOSHIMA JUNKO: What I'm saying is, when you were all wrapped up and comfy in your little hopey talent stuff? The despair had already begun to take root.
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
Dissapointed that outside of the Twilight episode, we still haven't seen anything from the DR2 cast's relatives. Like, has something happened with Teruteru's mom? Or Hiyoko's dad?
). Almost everytime Mukuro pops out in Despair I just want it to be over
Same. The funny thing is that in DR2, I actually disliked early Mikan, but when she remembered her memories due to the Despair Disease I actually started to like her lol
Same again (well not best girl but I did like her in If
). Almost everytime Mukuro pops out in Despair I just want it to be overYup that's true, but I did like how it explained the Lucky Student incident mentioned in Makoto's novel~
Eh, we know that in flashback Nagito had an umbrella when he noticed Mikan while in the classroom he was wet, so we can tell that Nagito followed Mikan, noticed Junko, Mukuro and Ryota, lost his umbrella along the way and prepared his gun.
That's a ss from NicoB's playthrough isn't it? haharan by this on reddit:
blankempathy
Member
Do you really want to watch people be tortured via real methods of brain washing? No so thats why we have the anime explanation. And I've said it before there has to be a suspension of disbelief at some point when it comes to the games and anime. Even the idea of the whole class murdering Chiaki and that turning them into despair is a ridiculous notion. Most people would be regretful or at least would blame themselves. Not turn into evil underlings bent on world destruction. Also considering how the dr2 cast is acting in the anime you can interpret what Junko is saying is that they were so blind to the truth that they were easily broken. At the most we've seen the dr2 cast worried and concerned about whats going on but they're always so upbeat and cheerful and wanting to do the right thing. They're in their own little worlds and Junko is about to give them a crash course in despair. As opposed to someone who has had a hard life and has seen terrible things they may be harder to break.
The only way to redeem the Despair arc would be for Chisa to be the one responsible for breaking their minds (by regular manipulation, ie. playing with their insecurities and doubts, not brainwashing anime), with Junko delivering the final blow (once again, not through brainwashing anime), and/or that they sacrifice themselves for Chiaki. Sadly, with only 3 episodes left, there is no way for them to show us a slow, gradual fall into despair for all of them. It is going to be brainwashing anime.
So far, the only character who is faithful to his DR2's self is Nagito... And I am fully expecting his character to be wasted by the end of the anime, sadly.
Regarding Future's side: can we please know what happened to Izuru and the Ultimate Despairs, please?
So far, the only character who is faithful to his DR2's self is Nagito... And I am fully expecting his character to be wasted by the end of the anime, sadly.
Regarding Future's side: can we please know what happened to Izuru and the Ultimate Despairs, please?
Anyone that can read Japanese here that know how Japan has been reacting to the show so far? Only thing I've been able to find is they like Ruruka for some reason.
Doesn't necessarily have to be torture nor would it have to be outright shown. Using Ibuki as an example, could be something as simple as Junko reaching out a hand to her while looking depressed after a concert or running into her old bandmates or something. Let your imagination and Junko's implied charisma do the rest, or maybe a quick montage of them hanging out as things gradually get more sinister. Maybe Junko eventually convinces her that the only way to really leave her mark on the musical world is to make music that drives people mad. Who the hell knows, the possibilities are endless.
Honestly, I was expecting something along those lines to happen with Ryota, but we all saw how that turned out.
Doesn't necessarily have to be torture nor would it have to be outright shown. Using Ibuki as an example, could be something as simple as Junko reaching out a hand to her while looking depressed after a concert or running into her old bandmates or something. Let your imagination and Junko's implied charisma do the rest, or maybe a quick montage of them hanging out as things gradually get more sinister. Maybe Junko eventually convinces her that the only way to really leave her mark on the musical world is to make music that drives people mad. Who the hell knows, the possibilities are endless.
Honestly, I was expecting something along those lines to happen with Ryota, but we all saw how that turned out.
Because people wouldn't think that "brainwashing" would be literal brainwashing, more like slow and cruel manipulation, something Mikan's acting in Trial 3 definitely implied.
blankempathy
Member
She would have to do that with every single class member. Also while staying hidden and not letting people catch on that shes slowly driving people crazy. And thats still a far cry from driving people crazy with music to other characters who are literally giving orders to their own followers to go murder people. She basically would in some fashion still have to drive them crazy via some type of brain washing.
TheGeniusArcana
Member
I've only just now realized it, but it's so damn stupid that Mikan basically gave in to Junko just by watching the regular video. What is even the point of adding whatever the hell Mitarai's contribution to the video is supposed to be?
All I want is for the DR2 cast to be good characters like they were in the games.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Brainwashing would be an acceptable answer if DR2's characters didn't have tons of traumas and insecurities that hinted towards their falls towards despair. DR2 made sure to heavily, heavily imply things about the roads these characters would go down and brainwashing removes and flat out ignores the depth that adds to them.
There's a difference between Junko having a dominating cult of personality and having an army of mindwiped slaves, and that difference changes the entire context of DR2.
Not in the least. AE has Komaru, Toko, and Monaca, and an actual plot that has like, buildup? It has a lot of poorly written minor elements and some absolute trashfire side characters (lol haiji), but the core of the thing is a hell of a lot more solid than whatever is going on in DR3.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Speaking of, I wonder if Haiji will show up in Future. Maybe HE'S the mastermind, wouldn't that be AWESOME
But seriously it is kind of interesting, his absence. So far, the only characters that are alive, have appeared in a game, and haven't appeared in either side are Hiroko Yasuhiro and Haiji Towa, so it makes me wonder if we will see them by the end. I think we will definitely see Hiroko show up, maybe as a quick cameo scene between her and Hiro.
But seriously it is kind of interesting, his absence. So far, the only characters that are alive, have appeared in a game, and haven't appeared in either side are Hiroko Yasuhiro and Haiji Towa, so it makes me wonder if we will see them by the end. I think we will definitely see Hiroko show up, maybe as a quick cameo scene between her and Hiro.
That shouldn't be hard judging by the past episodes lol.
Eeeh, I enjoyed the puzzle-solving aspect of it, gathering clues, putting stuff together and using them during the trials.
I do agree that some of the minigames are trash.
Permanently A
Junior Member
I like logic dive and ALLOW ME TO CUT THROUGH THOSE WORDS
Hell, look no further than my old posts defending brainwashing because I was certain it'd be more complex than hope ---video--> despair.
Changed my tune right quick this week, I'll tell you what.
Conceptually, it's sound. But in execution, even though Ace Attorney is more "simplistic," it still manages to be more compelling in terms of actual gameplay than Danganronpa.
It needs to be less about dumb gimmicks and more about the contradictions and arguments themselves. Ace Attorney 5 took Logic Dive, transformed it into Revisualization, and I liked that way more.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Ace Attorney is way better then Danganronpa, because AA doesn't feel the need to shove crappy gimmicks in every other section. It does have crappy gimmicks but they're more tolerable then DR's.
sackboy2197
Member
Truth to be told, while I love the cases in Ace Attorney, I really can't stand the investigation sections. They're just not my thing.
Permanently A
Junior Member
They're like, almost identical to the investigation sections in DR though.
A Link to the Past
Banned
One of these days a game needs to find a way to create an investigation phase without it just being 'click everything and read the text'.It's probably why I think that the investigations are weak in DR
dakkumauji
Member
you'll regret this wish when it's more mini-games
"To pick up this suicide note, you must beat a small bullet hell section."
R_thanatos
Member
This wasn't the regular video , it was the prototype video junko made
sackboy2197
Member
Well, I never said I enjoyed them in DR
My main issue with AA is that I feel it's a bit too scripted, as in you need to go exactly in order from one place to the next looking for something specific. If you can't find it you could start moving from place to place without progressing at all.Permanently A
Junior Member
improved hangman's gambit for every piece of evidence before you can add it to your truth bullets
A Link to the Past
Banned
Well, I never said I enjoyed them in DR
It's why I find it so strange that people complained about how investigations were done in Dual Destinies; it was basically designed to fix the very real problems of the investigation segments, but people were nostalgic for the traditional style after years of absence of mainline AA.
On that same note though, I can see someone liking DR's investigations without liking AA's, as while DR has some of the same problems, there's no problem with being stuck because you couldn't find that lone pixel, or you couldn't figure out which evidence you needed to show to whom.
Funyarinpa
Member
Well, I only played two AA games (AA1 & AA5) and I honestly feel that in DR the investigations flow much more smoothly- the tenser atmosphere and the incredible investigation themes help a huge ton.
Yeah, I'd say the atmosphere and stylized nature of the games makes a world of difference when it comes to investigation. DR's are tense due to the situations, have great music, and are faster-paced (hour to hour and a half vs several hours spread over many days). AA's are just... boring.
You monster
It's why Layton vs Phoenix is still the best AA game (though I'm working my way through AA6). It replaces the investigation portion of Ace Attorney with a Layton game.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
Don't let us scrooges ruin the fun for you tbh.
- Status