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[kiguel182]

or Robyn!

Spoiler

You let me be inside you.

busted out laughing at what was supposed to be a serious scene

If you're going to applaud a subplot taken out of Arrow, then you can at least admit that Daredevil is more than just punching bad guys.

I didn't laugh, I liked it.

And I don't watch Arrow so I don't know anything about that. Daredevil does have more stuff going in but the more compelling characters are the villains and Karen. Nothing about Matt Murdock really works for me and I don't like the actor at all.

 

[BKatastrophe]

I liked the show, but can anyone really disagree with this? JJ's action was AWFUL.

The scene where

Spoiler

her and Luke fight, and she tries to fly away and Luke grabs her and slams her made me laugh.

Good god. I excused literally all the action up until that point.

Why does every Jessica Jones/Daredevil thread always deteriorate into which show is better haha.

Same reason why every thread about a superhero movie devolves into a ranking thread and people bashing on other people's tastes. Or why every thread that brings up comic book/superhero shows devolves into the same damn thing.

People have to hyperbolically bash things while simultaneously doing hyperbolic praising to other things. Because there can be no middle ground and they'll be damned if they create coherent arguments. Not to say that everyone does it, but I'll be damned if that doesn't take up the majority of the posts in threads like this.

November 2016 - Luke Cage S1
Spring 2017 - Iron Fist S1
Autumn 2017 - Defenders
Spring 2018 - Jessica Jones S2
Autumn 2018 - ?
November 2018 - ?

More likely, considering that's actually confirmed, save for when Defenders and JJ S2 would actually drop.

I fucking hated that mothafucker.

Hellcat should be disturbed to death that she boned him (over and over again).

Why should she?

Spoiler

She was clearly using him. Both those sex scenes indicated that she was in total control of their sexual interactions, and she was most definitely using him outside of that.

I thought that worked well.

Spoiler

Even after everything Jessica told her, Jeri couldn't bring herself to believe that he was that bad, similar to the way people excuse rapists and manipulative abusive assholes. I mean, that's real life.

True, but

Spoiler

given the number of people affected by him, you have to admit that it was a bit of a reach. Even for her in that situation.

So here you have another theme vs character/plot point idea which has been brought up previously in the thread.



And the theme is good. Its nice to see that theme tackled in a TV show and getting more representation. I genuinely appreciate that. But it just doesn't fit Jeri's character at all. Jeri saw what Hope was going through. Jeri knows JJ isn't lying. And so for Jeri to do this thing that seems incredibly out of character just ruins it for me, despite the ulterior themes being portrayed. You've used a character as a conduit for a theme that doesn't really fit her.

Jeri is suspect of her the entire time, but Jeri also has other problems.

Spoiler

She was an opportunist, and a vicious one at that. She fucked up bad attempting to control and manipulate everything to her advantage. It was made very clear by the end when her girlfriend left her and she was left with nothing. Everyone has so many personal problems they forget what they're actually dealing with.

It became repetitive near the end, but it made sense to me.

ITT: Criticism is hate.

Just like Comic-GAF.

Street level heroes, who wants to be around them?

Well,

when you're basically charisma and charm incarnate...I assume everyone?

 

[Violater]

Or they could have introduced him later.

It really dragged on and on.

 

[The Artisan]

Why should she? She was clearly using him. Both those sex scenes indicated that she was in total control of their sexual interactions, and she was most definitely using him outside of that.

na, seemed to me like she fell for him and the fact that she has doubts about him later confirms that

 

[kiguel182]

Agreed but one of the biggest problems JJ had was it did not paint a clear picture why she made the choices she did, it merely skipped to the parts where she made them, often repeatedly and resulting in people dying.

When Matt Murdock made decisions in season 2, it was clear why. In fact not only was the exposition overly latant, they even gave him multiple foil characters to demonstrate distinct paths he could make.

Season 2 was about whether or not you can define someone who does bad things as good and if you can get them to stop said actions. Matt has a clear moral compass that viewers get and they understand the challenges he faced at thee xpense of his friendships. So you see a tie between why he believes what he believes, how that affects his judgement and choices and the repurcussions that leads to with people surrounding him.

Now, JJ had the choices and repurcussions down, but i never understood why she made dipshit decisions and its hard to have sympathy for a character you dont understand.

But if me being anti feminist helps people fit me into their warped view, then we can just chalk it up to that

Jessica was obessed with having proof of Killgrave and made bad decisions about how to handle things.

A character making bad decisions isn't bad writing. She is a very flawed character and the show deals with that. Yeah, she made some bad calls but everyone does. It's human.

 

[Aki-at]

captain america kills the shit outta mothafuckers, and he's the captain...

&& yeah, I remember punisher in the 90s show

Yeah but Castle goes a whole lot further than most mainstream heroes ever will.

Like do you see Cap leaving someone to die on a meat hook?

And interesting thing with the Punisher starting life as a Spiderman villain (Ditto with the Kingpin) but unfortunately I don't think we'd see either in any of the up and coming Marvel/Sony films, can hope though, I'd love some sort of cameo.

 

[The Artisan]

Yeah but Castle goes a whole lot further than most mainstream heroes ever will.

Like do you see Cap leaving someone to die on a meat hook?

And interesting thing with the Punisher starting life as a Spiderman villain (Ditto with the Kingpin) but unfortunately I don't think we'd see either in any of the up and coming Marvel/Sony films, can hope though, I'd love some sort of cameo.

yeah, Punisher is a fucking psycho. But I meant he could be a Defender in the way he

Spoiler

helped Elektra and Daredevil in the season 2 finale

and kingpin remains a Spiderman villain. he should be the villain for the spiderman reboot

 

[BKatastrophe]

na, seemed to me like she fell for him and the fact that she has doubts about him later confirms that

She

Spoiler

believes he's still a good guy because he wants to help get rid of Kilgrave, so the idea that he'd snap and go psycho again -- even though it was slowly happening over the course of the show -- was out of her mind. Plus, she's been shown to be dependent on abusers in the past. I mean, she almost went back to her mom at the end. Or at the very least considered it. It doesn't surprise me that she would have a blindspot towards people she lets in close, regardless of how abusive and dangerous they can be to her. People go to familiar places when things get rough. Jessica isolates herself, which makes sense because of how ostracized she felt when she was younger.

People don't change as much as we like to believe they do. No different for her.

 

[NastyBook]

LEXINGTON STEEL IS LUKE CAGE
COMING IN 2016

At least we know who's gonna play him in the XXX Porn Parody now. Has to happen.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Purple Man could have been absolutely great if they went with less is more.

Spoiler

The power boosting subplot was completely unnecessary, he was already OP as it is and it's not like the power amp ultimately mattered. I think the tipping point is when he escapes the tank, everything before that was great.

 

[The Artisan]

She

Spoiler

believes he's still a good guy because he wants to help get rid of Kilgrave, so the idea that he'd snap and go psycho again -- even though it was slowly happening over the course of the show -- was out of her mind. Plus, she's been shown to be dependent on abusers in the past. I mean, she almost went back to her mom at the end. Or at the very least considered it. It doesn't surprise me that she would have a blindspot towards people she lets in close, regardless of how abusive and dangerous they can be to her. People go to familiar places when things get rough. Jessica isolates herself, which makes sense because of how ostracized she felt when she was younger.

People don't change as much as we like to believe they do. No different for her.

exactly! so if I were her i'd be so disgusted, yo.

 

[The Artisan]

I've seen porn actors with more charisma than Luke Cage.

you're not supposed admit to watching porn

 

[DryEyeRelief]

People have to hyperbolically bash things while simultaneously doing hyperbolic praising to other things. Because there can be no middle ground and they'll be damned if they create coherent arguments. Not to say that everyone does it, but I'll be damned if that doesn't take up the majority of the posts in threads like this.

Right.

How do the flaws of Daredevil justify the atrocious writing of Jessica Jones? Attacking Daredevil doesn't disprove any sort of criticism.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

JJ is a just a brawler. She's not Matt. She doesn't know how to fight. She's just strong. someone that knows what they're doing could probably get the jump on her.

It's not that fact she has no moves, it's the fact the scenes were poorly shot. (and I mostly enjoyed the show)

 

[BKatastrophe]

I should stop to shamelessly shill one of my favorite Marvel series: Everyone who liked Jessica as a character, at the very least on paper, should go and read Alias. It's boss, even if the dialogue and art is spotty at times.

Ritter's great. I'm still happy with that casting.

My problems with Jessica Jones are such:

1) The character had a lot of her personality completely stripped from her in the transition from comic to screen, and what was added in return didn't make up for that. In fact, I'm not sure there really was anything added that wasn't already present in the source material in the first place.

2) The show (and this so far has held true for almost every Marvel series) is too long by about 1/3rd. The wheel-spinning that needed to take place to justify the runtime? Didn't justify the runtime.

3) The relationship between Jess and Luke started well, but the development from that point was completely fucking botched. Season 1 ends and I got no sense of any real connection between the two worth holding onto. Luke could never meet Jess again and it wouldn't mean shit, which shouldn't be a possibility I could even consider.

4) While Purple Man was the obvious choice in villain, his implementation got mishandled (and his exit was bullshit), starting with the fact his presence more or less eliminated the possibility of allowing the show to just be a Rockford Files-esque detective show, which would have seriously helped point 1).

So basically, while it did some things very well, and it added some thematic depth previously unexplored to the canon of live-action superhero storytelling, that advance (while admirable and necessary) isn't enough to counter, for me, the fact it kinda fucks up Jessica's character, kinda fucked up Luke's, kinda wasted Kilgrave's and wasted about 5 of the show's 13 hours.

I agree with your first and fourth points exactly. 2 and 3 I feel worked out fine. I bought their relationship and I though Jess' character translated fine, but I do agree that her arc didn't feel nearly as good as the comic. She is one of Marvel's best characters.

exactly! so if I were her i'd be so disgusted, yo.

God I love how much you use "yo." It makes me happy.

But I do think people can develop to the point where they have a much easier time overcoming those flaws, and I think

Spoiler

her and Jessica beating the shit out of Simpson and him effectively being removed from their lives (at least for the time being) provided an easier to way to overcome that guilt and any other self-flagellation she may have felt. Plus, focusing on Kilgrave also probably helped, too. She may still feel a little bad. We'll see in S2.

Right.

How do the flaws of Daredevil justify the atrocious writing of Jessica Jones? Attacking Daredevil doesn't disprove any sort of criticism.

You've done the same thing here, though.

 

[Verano]

Can they kill off Jessica Jones before then?

I second this

 

[Dalek]

At least we know who's gonna play him in the XXX Porn Parody now. Has to happen.

"This Ain't Luke Cage"

 

[MHWilliams]

Agreed but one of the biggest problems JJ had was it did not paint a clear picture why she made the choices she did, it merely skipped to the parts where she made them, often repeatedly and resulting in people dying.

The early part of the show is Jessica attempting to deal with the trauma that largely defined her life until that point. When she finally decides to handle it, she does so through the lens of the same comic-style superhero that Trish tried to talk her into being before, hence the attempts to capture and out Kilgrave rather than outright killing him. (Oddly enough, this exploration of heroism is also at the heart of both seasons of Daredevil.)

That's the point of the climax of the show. When she takes Kilgrave's life, that's Jessica giving up being a "hero" for the final time. It's a heroic act, but at the same time it's not. The closing narration reemphasizes this.

(On Kilgrave's powers not working on her, given what she went through before, why the hell do you think she'd test the theory out even if it occured to her?)

Does Jessica Jones (the show) have issues? Sure. We're so busy dealing with Jessica and Kilgrave that Jessica doesn't get much a chance to just be herself (the detective show that many probably wanted and probably better off that wasting time on other subplots). The subplot with the creepy incest siblings was useless. The show, like Daredevil, could stand to be a few episodes shorter. The Will Simpson stuff is like the Hand stuff in Daredevil, obvious setup for future storylines that could've been executed better.

But as a show about a woman and her abuser through the lens of Marvel Comics, it does work. Certainly enough to stand next to what we've been given so far and many of the complaints can be equally applied to Daredevil.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

You've done the same thing here, though.

No I haven't. I never said JJ was bad because it wasn't Daredevil. I don't think anyone has. Ninja Scooter's posts from the start of this thread never brought up Daredevil. People have been saying JJ was terrible on its own merits.

The thread is filled with the opposite though. Bring up Daredevil's possible plot contrivances or illogical character decisions. Ok cool. How does that make Jessica Jones a good show?

 

[SchrodingerC]

Can they kill off Jessica Jones before then?

Away with your bad opinion, Scooter.

Jesus, I know GAF hates the show, but this is just silly.

 

[Sblargh]

I guess if enough intelligent people didn't understood what motivated the character, then the writing wasn't clear. I often shouted at the screen "don't do this!" while completely understanding why the character would, indeed, do this.

It must be one of the toughest things to write. I respect a lot of that show and a lot of the character, not just the comic book version, but the tortured alcoholic woman on screen who literally can't escape her past. It's a "feel bad" kind of show. The execution wasn't all there, granted, but then it was genuinely trying to be something more than typical and not a lazy "super people but with grim and gritty scenes" kind of way.

I don't know how much I admiring what they were going blind me for the show's faults, but then again, I am not a critic trying to be objective. The show made me care about everyone, punched me in the feels multiple times and kept me glued to the screen through the entire thing. Feels bad having people wanting that to be the end of the character I have grown to admire.

 

[BKatastrophe]

No I haven't. I never said JJ was bad because it wasn't Daredevil. I don't think anyone has. Ninja Scooter's posts from the start of this thread never brought up Daredevil. People have been saying JJ was terrible on its own merits.

The thread is filled with the opposite though. Bring up Daredevil's possible plot contrivances or illogical character decisions. Ok cool. How does that make Jessica Jones a good show?

My main point was -- and I admit that I didn't really say what I meant to say in my post, but I'll say it now -- that there's a lot of usage of extreme negatives and positives in describing the show without being anything more than that. It's not really criticism to sit there and constantly call something as garbage or atrocious or awful, especially when said comments come into question and nothing is provided more than "X is garbage". Your post wasn't really much of an example to use. I mostly read into it as you hand-waving DD's flaws and then just bashing JJ, but that was me most likely reading into it what I wanted at the time.

So my bad for making a poor argument, which I admit to doing, but it doesn't change the amount of outright "Fuck that show" that's happening without much else to accompany it. Now that the thread has gotten over five pages in, though, there appears to be a greater amount of coherent and thought-out arguments and criticisms.

 

[Rhaknar]

wow, GAF hates jessica jones more than I thought. to each their own. but i always thought the general consensus was that JJ > DD

it was but its been retconned

 

[Octavianus]

Oof, I'm with you, even if no one else is. She's awful. Throw Kilgrave and pretty much the rest of the entire cast out with her, too.

 

[The Artisan]

God I love how much you use "yo." It makes me happy.

But I do think people can develop to the point where they have a much easier time overcoming those flaws, and I think

Spoiler

her and Jessica beating the shit out of Simpson and him effectively being removed from their lives (at least for the time being) provided an easier to way to overcome that guilt and any other self-flagellation she may have felt. Plus, focusing on Kilgrave also probably helped, too. She may still feel a little bad. We'll see in S2.

lol it's kind of just a habit of mine. sometimes it just feels like including the word just completes my thought.

but anyways, yeah, I agree with what you're saying, and I think in season 2 she should definitely take time to look back at that as how much of a mistake it was. i wouldn't be surprised if they do that; it's quite simple and daredevil season 2 pleasantly surprised me in the same way.

it was but its been retconned

ha. ha. good one.

 

[TheFlow]

The early part of the show is Jessica attempting to deal with the trauma that largely defined her life until that point. When she finally decides to handle it, she does so through the lens of the same comic-style superhero that Trish tried to talk her into being before, hence the attempts to capture and out Kilgrave rather than outright killing him. (Oddly enough, this exploration of heroism is also at the heart of both seasons of Daredevil.)

That's the point of the climax of the show. When she takes Kilgrave's life, that's Jessica giving up being a "hero" for the final time. It's a heroic act, but at the same time it's not. The closing narration reemphasizes this.

(On Kilgrave's powers not working on her, given what she went through before, why the hell do you think she'd test the theory out even if it occured to her?)

Does Jessica Jones (the show) have issues? Sure. We're so busy dealing with Jessica and Kilgrave that Jessica doesn't get much a chance to just be herself (the detective show that many probably wanted and probably better off that wasting time on other subplots). The subplot with the creepy incest siblings was useless. The show, like Daredevil, could stand to be a few episodes shorter. The Will Simpson stuff is like the Hand stuff in Daredevil, obvious setup for future storylines that could've been executed better.

But as a show about a woman and her abuser through the lens of Marvel Comics, it does work. Certainly enough to stand next to what we've been given so far and many of the complaints can be equally applied to Daredevil.

Best post in the thread.

I said that shit so many times. Same probs with jj is in dd

 

[The Artisan]

Best post in the thread.

I said that shit so many times. Same probs with jj is in dd

the problems i had with dd season 2 (season 1 is near flawless imo) are not really the same ones i had with jj season 1.

 

[The Silver]

Man i loved JJ, was so weird coming to GAF and then seeing everyone hate the show with the fury of 1000 suns.

 

[- J - D -]

The first episode of JJ was really great.

 

[Discotheque]

Read the fucking thread. People already expressed why they hate JJ, her being a woman is not the reason.

IMO I found JJ a boring show that everyone is an idiot and they simply expect things will fix themselves for no absolutely no reason.

Jessica Jones has some of the worst supporting characters I've seen on TV. Closest analogy to this show for me was the later seasons of dexter tbh

Bad acting and bad writing for them all

 

[Obliterator]

Jessica Jones was incredibly mediocre and waaaaaay too slow paced. Tons of exposition and not a whole hell of a lot happening.

But they shouldn't kill her off, just do a LOT better job on Season 2.

 

[Jumeira]

Can they kill off Jessica Jones before then?

Hope so. Can't stand her character. In fact I'm put off by Luke Cage (who the hell is he?) because of his association to JJ.

Daredevil is awesome though. And Castle is a much better version of a traumatised hero dealing with his past and moral code. Actually, Castle > Murdock

 

[NobleXenon]

So how small scale is the Defenders going to be? I see it'll be around six episodes give or take a couple, and I'm sure the MCU movie department can't have New York go through something big as the Chitauri invasion, so it'll all be small, hidden, and inconsequential.

 

[MHWilliams]

So how small scale is the Defenders going to be? I see it'll be around six episodes give or take a couple, and I'm sure the MCU movie department can't have New York go through something big as the Chitauri invasion, so it'll all be small, hidden, and inconsequential.

I'm reasonably sure all The Hand stuff is set up for Defenders, which looks like it'll do some version of the Daredevil Shadowland crossover, with Elektra filling in for evil Daredevil from the comics.

That's all speculation though.

 

[The Artisan]

I'm reasonably sure all The Hand stuff is set up for Defenders, which looks like it'll do some version of the Daredevil Shadowland crossover, with Elektra filling in for evil Daredevil from the comics.



That's all speculation though.

daredevil was mind controlled?

 

[DryEyeRelief]

The early part of the show is Jessica attempting to deal with the trauma that largely defined her life until that point. When she finally decides to handle it, she does so through the lens of the same comic-style superhero that Trish tried to talk her into being before, hence the attempts to capture and out Kilgrave rather than outright killing him. (Oddly enough, this exploration of heroism is also at the heart of both seasons of Daredevil.)

That's the point of the climax of the show. When she takes Kilgrave's life, that's Jessica giving up being a "hero" for the final time. It's a heroic act, but at the same time it's not. The closing narration reemphasizes this.

(On Kilgrave's powers not working on her, given what she went through before, why the hell do you think she'd test the theory out even if it occured to her?)

Does Jessica Jones (the show) have issues? Sure. We're so busy dealing with Jessica and Kilgrave that Jessica doesn't get much a chance to just be herself (the detective show that many probably wanted and probably better off that wasting time on other subplots). The subplot with the creepy incest siblings was useless. The show, like Daredevil, could stand to be a few episodes shorter. The Will Simpson stuff is like the Hand stuff in Daredevil, obvious setup for future storylines that could've been executed better.

But as a show about a woman and her abuser through the lens of Marvel Comics, it does work. Certainly enough to stand next to what we've been given so far and many of the complaints can be equally applied to Daredevil.

I don't agree in the way that you're presenting it. You're making this something black and white, as if the premise of a hero that wants avoid killing is a problem in itself. No. In what way did Daredevil become a three stoogies cat-and-mouse game like Jessica Jones did?

Spoiler

If I say "killgrave is getting away" that describes maybe 7 or 8 different instances in JJ. "Kingpin is getting away" only describes one. and that's at the very climax

 

[Dalek]

daredevil was mind controlled?

Possessed.

 

[MHWilliams]

daredevil was mind controlled?

Possessed, but close enough.

I don't agree in the way that you're presenting it. You're making this something black and white, as if the premise of a hero that wants avoid killing is a problem in itself. No. In what way did Daredevil become a three stoogies cat-and-mouse game like Jessica Jones did?

In the entire Hand plotline.

 

[call_kotaku]

In the entire Hand plotline.

In hindsight "Kilgrave got away because someone did something stupid" is absolutely JJ's equivalent of "fight some ninjas in the dark"

 

[The Artisan]

Possessed.

Possessed, but close enough.

close enough? that's fuckin worse.

for the devil to be possessed...

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Daredevil's Shadowland suit was pretty dope.

 

[PsychBat!]

Daredevil's Shadowland suit was pretty dope.

Too bad the entire event was dumpster fire.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Too bad the entire event was dumpster fire.

True that.

 

[MHWilliams]

Too bad the entire event was dumpster fire.

But there was the time that...?

What about...?

Wasn't it cool when...?

Yeah. You're right.

 

[Drayco21]

But there was the time that...?

What about...?

Wasn't it cool when...?

Yeah. You're right.

The Moon Knight bits were Rad.

Also, DD drank Ghost Rider's face fire. That was pretty funny.

 

[IrishNinja]

The Moon Knight bits were Rad.

Also, DD drank Ghost Rider's face fire. That was pretty funny.

yeah, rider showing up and moony was great! that last bit though...fuck i must've suppressed that
also seeing bullseye get his was nice

 

[DryEyeRelief]

In the entire Hand plotline.

what about it?

 

[exmachina64]

If you had read Zeit, you would know that the show is actually a superhero telenovela, mediocre and only got good reviews because it has a female lead. I wish I was making this up.

Of course, how could I have been so blind?

 

[PsychBat!]

Of course, how could I have been so blind?

You were Matt Murdock this entire time!

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Let me clarify, His ability was annoying and in light of how dangerous he was they should have killed him a long time ago.

oh so you do get the hate for this show