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DC Cinematic Universe |OT| Superfriends with Benefits
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Smokey_Run
Member
In a movie where the story already suffers enough distractions, it needed to go. You get everything you need to know out of that whole sequence with the thing immediately following it and the deleted scene.
Ending spoiler:
The over reliance on dreams and nightmares makes the whole thing with Lex and Batman muddled. I honestly didn't know if I was watching another dream sequence due to some of the aesthetics of the scene. Batman appearing and disappearing out of thin air in a prison, the guards just disappearing, the red emergency strobe lights, etc. My friends on the second showing ran into a similar problem and asked me after the movie.
Nah. It fits in there just fine as hints of a larger world and story at play. It doesn't last too long and it's at most like ten minutes of the movie. You can also read into as an actual nightmare scenario of what Superman could be if he decided to go berserk. That feeds into Bruce's narrative of why Superman has to be stopped.
You only should get confused if you're not paying attention since the movie is pretty economical with its scenes. I stepped out for ten minutes when I saw it and when I came back I could follow the story just fine.
Smokey_Run
Member
Come on, I like the film too, but those 10 minutes could have been better used.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Agreed. It's not even that I have trouble following it, it's just wholly unnecessary. It also muddles the waters by appearing to lend some credibility to Batman's rationalizing.
Also, if all of the thread regulars have seen the movie, I think it's time to dispose with the spoiler tags, lol.
BadAss2961
Member
BvS made a habit of showing and not telling. It wants you to think about what things mean or where they might lead. These things are interesting if the rest of the movie worked for you, unfortunately it didn't work for a whole lot of people, so they never gave it much thought outside the distraction.
Flash gives his warning, but it's the knightmare that gives it context. That's what becomes of the world unless he goes back in time in an attempt at a butterfly effect where things change for the better. This scene works itself into the end of BvS. Bruce's hunch, where he feels the need to bring the League together is all because of Flash's message to him, and we (the audience) were treated to what happens if he doesn't send that message. Something that looks like the Injustice timeline.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Except you can convey all that without a 10 minute dream sequence that has near-0 connection to the rest of the plot. Hell, they do convey all that. The end scene with Lex does a fine job.
Its not all because of Flash's message, it's also Lex's warning about the bell having been rung.
To make the scene worse, they pull the whole
dream within a dream nonsense. Which is an additional strike against it.
What? That wouldn't change a thing? It was still a dumb scene at a dumb time with a dumb resolve.
The movie had a lot of worse scenes though.
Maybe. I don't really know unless I see what those other ten minutes consists of. But as a whole, I like having the Knightmare sequence in there as a tease. It gives the film something eerie, something otherworldly, that acts as both a prophecy and a motivation for Bruce. To be honest, I don't mind these sorts of detours in movies if they're going for these epic stories. The more the better if you ask me especially because we get these movies once every two years. Give me the spectacle. Give me something to think about. Surprise me.
I can't wait for those extra 30 minutes in the Director's Cut for that very reason.
What did he mean by this?
Member
I would have changed the Knightmare scene by putting all the JL cameos right in there. This sounds very corny, but....
Then, do something weird like Flash appearing in all the other dream sequences subtlety or hearing his voice (like hearing Ezra Miller yell "Bruce" once in the intro instead of Alfred or seeing "FIND US BRUCE" carved on the mausoleum walls when his Batmom pops out to eat him) -- no need for Terminator time-portal-in-a-dream-within-a-dream nonsense.
Can keep the Wonder Woman photo plot and make that moment into Bruce's realization that the "dream" he had was something more.
Like I said, much too corny and I dont like writing movie fixfiction anyhow. All I want to say is if they're going to take 10 minutes out of the movie to "Dawn of Justice" the shit out of it, then at least go all out. As it is, the scene is pointless.
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starts inside the bunker
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monstrous Cyborg integrated into supercomputer claims: "He's here"
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Batman steps out the bunker, flanked by Wonder Woman, Flash and other guards
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Go to meet truck shipment with Aquman leading it
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Batman goes inside to get the rock but reveals a trap
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Aquaman: "I'm sorry, Bruce, my people need me"
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the shipment explodes and knocks Batman back while Aquaman is unaffected -- which shows part of his powers to the audience
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Wonder Woman leaps to combat Aquaman (which would tie in with the rumored Atlantis vs Themyscira theme in JL)
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Superman soldiers reveal themselves and start firing
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Batman fighting in the circle while you see Flash zipping around in the background
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hear sound of boomtube
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parademons arrive and overwhelm Wonder Woman
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hear 1 more boom in background, Superman crashes down and explodes the bunker
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confronts Batman with the "You took her from me" stuff
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Batman yells for Flash to run as he's incinerated and Bruce wakes up
Then, do something weird like Flash appearing in all the other dream sequences subtlety or hearing his voice (like hearing Ezra Miller yell "Bruce" once in the intro instead of Alfred or seeing "FIND US BRUCE" carved on the mausoleum walls when his Batmom pops out to eat him) -- no need for Terminator time-portal-in-a-dream-within-a-dream nonsense.
Can keep the Wonder Woman photo plot and make that moment into Bruce's realization that the "dream" he had was something more.
Like I said, much too corny and I dont like writing movie fixfiction anyhow. All I want to say is if they're going to take 10 minutes out of the movie to "Dawn of Justice" the shit out of it, then at least go all out. As it is, the scene is pointless.
80% of the complaints are people confused why it cut to that as if it was just randomly placed there. Show Bruce falling asleep and you have your lead in. Simple but effective. Who knows though. They literally say to you the bats lifting him up is a dream and a surprising amount of people didn't catch that. Maybe nothing would have helped.
In the time since BvS has released there have been some valid complaints and a whole shitload of nitpicking on a level I haven't seen maybe ever.
And even this thread is starting to feel like any one of the other 20 BvS threads.
If they move it, I hope they move it up. I'm really interested in what that movie is going to be like.
When am I going to get trailer for it?
Discotheque
Banned
The Emoji Movie...jesus christ.
Dunkirk is totally gonna be moved to the fall/awards season. That's gonna be Nolan's big oscar movie for sure.
Pretty hyped for that and planet of the apes. the rest i can take or leave. (though i will definitely go to the theaters for valerian, wonder woman, pirates, bad boys 3, spiderman and guardians but my hype aint too high for them)
Dunkirk is totally gonna be moved to the fall/awards season. That's gonna be Nolan's big oscar movie for sure.
Pretty hyped for that and planet of the apes. the rest i can take or leave. (though i will definitely go to the theaters for valerian, wonder woman, pirates, bad boys 3, spiderman and guardians but my hype aint too high for them)
Schweinehund
Member
Superman solo sequel update
Sounds like they don't want to commit to anything yet. I'm guessing bvs reception has made them wary of green lighting anything more until they see how the current planned projects pan out.
Sounds like they don't want to commit to anything yet. I'm guessing bvs reception has made them wary of green lighting anything more until they see how the current planned projects pan out.
Smokey_Run
Member
No. It's wasted time that could easily be covered with less while giving other things time to breathe or be expanded upon.
People keep talking about it being a tease, a tease doesn't last that long. A tease is the deleted scene, a tease is what happens immediately after the Knightmare sequence.
I do think they should have saved some of that stuff for the credits.
BadAss2961
Member
The reason we don't see Bruce fall asleep is probably because the Knightmare isn't actually a dream, but a glimpse at the alternate future which
Flash comes from
The people saying the scene was awful because of a jarring cut to a dream are wrong. The cut to the dream wasn't jarring at all. That's not why the scene is awful. The scene is awful because it ruins the flow of the movie, actually rationalizes Batman's insane POV, doesn't really tie into the plot in this specific movie and is actually a commercial for a future movie, and resulted in other more important scenes being cut as a result of keeping this scene in.
I disagree. They seem to have no reason to be in this film other than to make zero sense in the context of THIS movie, but likely have some sort of connective tissue in a future film. There are ways to do that with a less heavy hand than exhibited in this movie with the freaking nightmares, AND the email footage, AND the conversation at the end AND Lexs rant at the end. Like.... It was too much. Cut the nightmares and leave the rest and it still works just fine.
It was unreal having people that I watched it with go:
It's around there that I sort of realized that this movie put a bunch of stuff in with zero context. It just sort of assumed every viewer has knowledge of the comics and so it explains fuck all. To a lot of people Flash can just move fast, only people who dig further knows that it's possible for him to time travel. And you aren't making a billion bucks at the boxoffice solely on the backs of comic readers. And even if you could, putting all that crap in the film with zero context is still bad film making.
I know WHY they did it. Im sure in 5 years we will be able to patch together fan edits from BvS, MoS, JL, SS, Aqua, Cyborg and Flash and make sense of all of that; but for now, people just walked out of the theatre thinking "WTF!???"....
The dreams were awful for the flow of the movie and the lack of context provided to explain them. It should have been cut. It wouldnt have 'fixed' the film but it would have improved it.
Which I totally get. At the end of the day, though, Cyborg is the easiest black character to do.
Static - Rights are tied up with Milestone.
John Stewart - a Green Lantern, a franchise WB is weary about
Vixen - Not a bad choice, but lacks the popularity Cyborg has from cartoons. Name might also be problematic for marketing to kids
Mr. Terrific, Black Lightning, Bumblebee - Who dis? (lol)
Cyborg has the brand recognition and no rights issues. No matter how much his push annoys fans, it makes the most sense for WB/DC right now. Having his film set up a Teen Titans movie would be fine, but making it one outright runs the risk of turning him into a token twice over as he already kinda is one on the Justice League.
Though really, the better choice to push over Cyborg would have been Blue Beetle. Similar character, but with a more interesting backstory. He also has some recognition thanks to Brave and the Bold and Young Justice. Sadly, we can't go back in time and tell DC to push him harder.
This is my biggest issue with it. I can deal with the jarring cut and the fact that it hurts the flow. It's that the movie was actually doing a good job building Batman up as an insane douche, but it then doubles back and goes "Nope. He actually kinda has a point and here's the Flash to tell you why."
Dcube
Member
Knightmare, like much of the movie, was a cool idea executed poorly. As a fan I thought it was fun, but I shouldn't be explaining all of it to my friends on the car ride home. As others have mentioned there was already more than enough there to hint at JL and it just ruined the flow entirely.
Still could have included it, but it had to be placed in a smarter way.
Still could have included it, but it had to be placed in a smarter way.
This is a great idea. Though anything would be better than what we got.
She's right about Ghostbusters though, these people are going to turn on it next. I wonder which MCU flick will get the knife in the back from these people.
I really don't think that this hate mob is a large-scale thing.
What was the last decently reviewed film to get hate-mobbed?
An easy way to avoid Cyborg feeling like a token black guy is make him the leader or cast a black kid as Beast Boy or Aqualad. Don't give me reasons why we can't get a Titans movie goddamnit!
Jurassic World? Closest example but it's not like it wasn't popular online.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Future Foundation
Member
broncobuster
Banned
Prometheus always sticks out in my mind. Internet snark, regurgitating memes and talking points were overwhelming.
Black Lightning would have been pretty interesting for both the comics and the films. Dude has an interesting backstory that sets him apart and humanizes him.
Paul Feig movies are well liked both critically and by audiences. Fanboys may attack it online but I strongly doubt the average audience no critics will for Ghostbusters. I bet it will be well received by most non-fanboys.
You see fanboys lash at movies online all the time that are well liked critically and by audiences (see The Dark Knight Rises).
You see fanboys lash at movies online all the time that are well liked critically and by audiences (see The Dark Knight Rises).
Discotheque
Banned
i dislike jurassic world and star trek 2 quite a bit. still it was more fun to sit through than BvS.
with a tone like that you either gotta pull off great pacing and a good script or just feel like a slog.
with a tone like that you either gotta pull off great pacing and a good script or just feel like a slog.
Poodlestrike
Banned
DCEU is SAVED
Jurassic World and Into Darkness both got good reviews and decent legs at the box-office.
I think the closest comparison to Batman v Superman in terms of reactions from fanboys/general public/critics would be X-Men Origins Wolverine.
Discotheque
Banned
http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/star-trek-into-darkness-2013
http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice-2016
not just this guy, but a few other reviewers i read scored them fairly similarly too. i didn't read them though until after i saw the movie so it did not paint my opinion of it but star trek 2 sucked so bad. it got by with some of the fun dynamics between the enterprise crew tho.
consensus for it was waay higher than BvS though no doubt. to be frank i think i enjoyed spectre less than BvS as well, but this really puts beloved characters like Superman/Batman/Lex through the wringer and Spectre was pretty faithful to the Bond in the last film so it was a lot less offensive as well.
sandwiching this movie between Star Trek 2 and Spectre is..uhh..not flattering at all though from my perspective.
http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice-2016
not just this guy, but a few other reviewers i read scored them fairly similarly too. i didn't read them though until after i saw the movie so it did not paint my opinion of it but star trek 2 sucked so bad. it got by with some of the fun dynamics between the enterprise crew tho.
consensus for it was waay higher than BvS though no doubt. to be frank i think i enjoyed spectre less than BvS as well, but this really puts beloved characters like Superman/Batman/Lex through the wringer and Spectre was pretty faithful to the Bond in the last film so it was a lot less offensive as well.
sandwiching this movie between Star Trek 2 and Spectre is..uhh..not flattering at all though from my perspective.
I want a Titans movie more than anybody as they're my favorite team, but it sadly has to wait.
If we go back, we also need to correct them making Barbara Gordon Batgirl again.
There is a really interesting and emotional movie about Black Lightning and his daughters waiting to be written that will never happen because he will never be popular enough.
I feel what actually sets the current hate mob that BvS is experiencing apart from what those movies went through is that those haters were purely reactionary. The BvS hate mob has been growing and festering since the first day it was announced, setting a negative narrative against the film through social media that's given every single piece of promotional material a negative spin leading all the way into opening weekend. We never saw that with those other films. We absolutely are seeing it happen again with Ghostbusters, and God help Feig if the critics turn on him like they did with BvS. It'll be blood in the water.
People have no faith in Snyder
Discotheque
Banned
yeah i guarantee the narrative gets a bit more positive with all these nerd blogs if snyder ever gets replaced.
suicide squad doesn't get nearly as much hate around it. aside from the "DC doesn't know what they're doing" crap nobody's really attacking ayer or the film for looking like it's missed the mark.
suicide squad doesn't get nearly as much hate around it. aside from the "DC doesn't know what they're doing" crap nobody's really attacking ayer or the film for looking like it's missed the mark.
Ghostbusters is an interesting comparison in that has the advantages of not having a three wait following a critically divisive movie and that much of its hate is being driven by sexists, so people might be inclined to give it more of a fair shake. Or at least rally behind it because it rustles MRA jimmies.
But then you remember how beloved the original Ghostbusters is, how there are still a lot of hurt feelings over this not being GB3, and that there are a lot more sexists out there than any of us want to admit. Then realize the pump is primed for one hell of a shit storm.
I know. I know. Conspiracy theory. But I don't think it's that sinister; I think sites just know what gets clicks. I mean, how many io9 articles got posted on here during the lead up to BvS purely on the basis of the writer saying something negative about the DCEU. Then you check the comments or the threads and everyone shows up to either parrot what the article says or fight it.
There's been three years for certain sentiments to set in, and while I don't think SS will catch it as bad as BvS (especially if it's good), I think you'll see some people's perceptions colored based on the fact that they've parroted the same talking points for so long.
But then you remember how beloved the original Ghostbusters is, how there are still a lot of hurt feelings over this not being GB3, and that there are a lot more sexists out there than any of us want to admit. Then realize the pump is primed for one hell of a shit storm.
But there is a lot of this going around.
I know. I know. Conspiracy theory. But I don't think it's that sinister; I think sites just know what gets clicks. I mean, how many io9 articles got posted on here during the lead up to BvS purely on the basis of the writer saying something negative about the DCEU. Then you check the comments or the threads and everyone shows up to either parrot what the article says or fight it.
There's been three years for certain sentiments to set in, and while I don't think SS will catch it as bad as BvS (especially if it's good), I think you'll see some people's perceptions colored based on the fact that they've parroted the same talking points for so long.
Discotheque
Banned
ghostbusters trailer sucked ass, that didn't help the matter. but it was primed to be hated on by the internet whether or not it was a good one.
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