Scofield94941
Member
The use of deadly force can be used whenever police fear for their lives or civilian lives, notice how i say police lives first.
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Deadly LAPD shooting of homeless man on skidrow is caught on video
- Thread starter JackLongRod
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They didn't seem awfully concerned for that dumb kid who grabbed the stick, like the fuck, sure restrain him but get him the fuck out of there as well. I mean if that homeless guy vs 4 armed cops was so dangerous they had to shoot him I mean.
Okay someone help me out please.
I watched this video 10 times on my cell (6in FHD at least)... I can see the last 4 shots being fired by a police officer. If you watch all the hands during the first shot though, you can't determine who it was. Or can you? I can't see it. Maybe the homeless guy managed to pull the trigger in the holster or sth?
I watched this video 10 times on my cell (6in FHD at least)... I can see the last 4 shots being fired by a police officer. If you watch all the hands during the first shot though, you can't determine who it was. Or can you? I can't see it. Maybe the homeless guy managed to pull the trigger in the holster or sth?
Forerunner
Member
I really should just back away from this thread, but here it goes!
When it comes to a situation there are a few main factors. First, officer perspective; this is what the reasonable officer perceives. For example, let say someone is robbing a store. The suspect has their hand under their clothing acting like they are brandishing a firearm. An officer comes in see this and shoots. It turns out it wasnt a weapon at all. However, the officer is able to justify the shooting. He feared for his safety and that of others. The suspect also showed intent to use it. This leads to the next part.
Intent, opportunity, and capability. These are the three signs a suspect should show in order to justify an act. What was the intent of the perpetrator? In this case his intent seemed to be malicious. He was uncooperative with police, which lead to him being restrained, and unfortunately killed. This was due to him showing the intent by resisting in the first place and also grabbing for an officers weapon.
Next comes opportunity, did the suspect have the opportunity to commit the act? In this case yes. By my reasoning, the initial struggle lead to gear being loosen and moved around. This allowed the suspect to get a hold of one of the weapons.
Last is capability, is the individual capable of committing it? This is the one I somewhat have a hard time agreeing with in this situation. The weapons safety would most likely be on; however this depends on the department. For example, we kept our sidearm on fire when holstered. However in this situation if it wasnt on fire, the individual would have to have knowledge of the weapon system in order to operate it.
This is why I dont really like these threads, and I tend to stay out of them. There are a plethora of factors to take into consideration. This is something you cant tell from a short video from a poor perspective.
Also to all the people saying four cops cant take down one person. Have any of you ever tried to restrain someone under the effects of pcp or some other type of drug? Youre going to need a lot of officers. Obviously we dont know if he was under the effects of some type of drugs or what state of mind he was in, just something I wanted to point out
Sorry for being a bit long winded here. This is just a subject that I have experience in and Im just sharing.
When it comes to a situation there are a few main factors. First, officer perspective; this is what the reasonable officer perceives. For example, let say someone is robbing a store. The suspect has their hand under their clothing acting like they are brandishing a firearm. An officer comes in see this and shoots. It turns out it wasnt a weapon at all. However, the officer is able to justify the shooting. He feared for his safety and that of others. The suspect also showed intent to use it. This leads to the next part.
Intent, opportunity, and capability. These are the three signs a suspect should show in order to justify an act. What was the intent of the perpetrator? In this case his intent seemed to be malicious. He was uncooperative with police, which lead to him being restrained, and unfortunately killed. This was due to him showing the intent by resisting in the first place and also grabbing for an officers weapon.
Next comes opportunity, did the suspect have the opportunity to commit the act? In this case yes. By my reasoning, the initial struggle lead to gear being loosen and moved around. This allowed the suspect to get a hold of one of the weapons.
Last is capability, is the individual capable of committing it? This is the one I somewhat have a hard time agreeing with in this situation. The weapons safety would most likely be on; however this depends on the department. For example, we kept our sidearm on fire when holstered. However in this situation if it wasnt on fire, the individual would have to have knowledge of the weapon system in order to operate it.
This is why I dont really like these threads, and I tend to stay out of them. There are a plethora of factors to take into consideration. This is something you cant tell from a short video from a poor perspective.
Also to all the people saying four cops cant take down one person. Have any of you ever tried to restrain someone under the effects of pcp or some other type of drug? Youre going to need a lot of officers. Obviously we dont know if he was under the effects of some type of drugs or what state of mind he was in, just something I wanted to point out
Sorry for being a bit long winded here. This is just a subject that I have experience in and Im just sharing.
They take steroids because black people have superpowers. Helps even the playing field.
jakonovski
Member
It's a complicated issue of Americans needing more killing by the police than any other nationality on earth.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Well if he got a hand on a gun, that's a good shoot. Too bad they couldn't restrain him more effectively and cuff him so that couldn't happen.
Mohonky
Member
Yeh I thought he said "he's got my gun he's got my gun"
Not "drop the gun"
If he did have the pfficers gun then that was always going to end one way.
Edit: it does sound like he said "hes going for my gun" after repeat watching.
Auto-Reply
Member
Looks amateurish, of course I was never in a situation like that but if I was with 3 other officers I would not expect having much problems with one (seemingly) dude of average stature and brawl around with him so that he can get a hold of my gun.
Not that everything has to be as easy as seen in movies but come on, I thought they would know how to detain a guy more effectively than what's on display there.
Not that everything has to be as easy as seen in movies but come on, I thought they would know how to detain a guy more effectively than what's on display there.
Are cops not trained to be able to deescalate a situation and thus avoid resistance? Are cops not trained well enough to be able to shoot to incapacitate instead of shooting to kill every fucking time...?
Sounds to me like these skills are very basic and necessary for any half-decent policing. But obviously, we have too many incompetent cops.
It's too hard to judge this situation given that video because it's not clear what the hell is going on within that struggle.
But if people genuinely think a cop looks in the mirror each morning and thinks 'I hope I get to shoot a black guy at work today', it ain't happening. Who would even consider it nowadays, particularly in this case where hundreds of people are looking on and watching your every move. The mentality where cops are all racist, bloodthirsty animals does a disservice to any argument against police brutality.
Eric Garner? Police brutality, no doubt. That was fucked up. But I think people need to stand back from this one. Though I'm kind of in agreeance with those saying the professionalism of these officers looked... suspect.
But if people genuinely think a cop looks in the mirror each morning and thinks 'I hope I get to shoot a black guy at work today', it ain't happening. Who would even consider it nowadays, particularly in this case where hundreds of people are looking on and watching your every move. The mentality where cops are all racist, bloodthirsty animals does a disservice to any argument against police brutality.
Eric Garner? Police brutality, no doubt. That was fucked up. But I think people need to stand back from this one. Though I'm kind of in agreeance with those saying the professionalism of these officers looked... suspect.
DiscoJer
Member
Police are only slightly better trained than mall security guards. It's a relatively low skilled, low paying job with virtually no entry requirements.
And it's heavily unionized. Which means there will be a huge amount of pushback if someone tries to push for accountability or reform. Look at what the police union here in St. Louis has done after Ferguson. The head of the union has literally been brawling with local politicians. (IMHO, unions have their places, but not really in the public sector, and especially not for law enforcement, though not quite as bad as prison guard unions)
Mammoth Jones
Member
Pretty much this.
I understand it's a lot harder to restrain someone when they're actively fighting back but I'd like to imagine that multiple officers would be capable of doing that.
Given the person is fighting with the officer just before I doubt they'll get charged for this. I really can't tell if he was go in going for the gun or not. And most investigations error on the side of the police. Sadly.
Can Crusher
Banned
Love the quality of the training. Dropping the batons like that, going into street boxing mode, and then executing the guy.
Mammoth Jones
Member
This is really the core of the issue. So quick to resort to lethal response.
Shamrock7r
Member
The use of batons would probably garner the same responses on here, I imagine.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Bullets are cheaper than proper training.
Removed black, because trust me, some do.
Shamrock7r
Member
You should comment on the video, because that's what the thread is about.
I watched the video a couple of times and I can't find fault with what the officers did. Sometimes it's hard to subdue a person who is going nuts, even with 4 people. One of the main criticisms, and with good reason, with cops in the U.S. is their quickness to escalate a situation via their aggressiveness in handling these things.
What I see here is police initially trying to subdue the guy in a way that would produce the least amount of injury. Hard to tell from the video, but if the guy reached for the gun, then in a split second the situation escalated tremendously. Maybe the police miscalculated how crazy the guy they were dealing with was. I am not going to fault them for that. All this is happening in seconds. I am not going to fault them for actually trying to use minimum force to isolate the situation, even though in this instance it backfired.
So it's the cops responsibility to make sure that someone doesn't get themselves shot?
Come on now, IF (big if, wish the video was more clear) the guy is showing intent to murder police in the middle of a heavily populated area, and has the capability to, how can you possibly say 'aw, too bad the police allowed him to deserve to be shot!'
Now?
pokeystaples
Banned
It has to be nice to have ignored this forever...PSY・S;154243727 said:
forgeforsaken
Member
Yelling that seems to be Modus Operandi during certain arrests. There was a case in NJ where the suspect was exonerated due to dash cam video, and in it you can hear the cop yelling that as he beats the man who clearly is not going for the cops gun.
Laieon
Member
Case closed. Might as well say that every teacher wants to sleep with their students too while we're at it and, just to be safe, you probably should avoid the dentist. Every profession has people who are bad at their job.
I find it a bit odd that GAF is always advocating treating people as individuals and not promote stereotypes, yet everyone seems more than okay with stereotyping cops and acting like a few bad apples represent every single one of them.
Count Dookkake
Member
I find it a bit odd when people try to force an equivalence between the arm of the state and racial groups or whatever.
pokeystaples
Banned
I think it's the opposite. There are a few good apples being ruined by a bushel of rotten apples, but tomayto tomahto.
I disagree with the first part, but would definitely have to agree with regards to the second part. ANYONE wearing sagging pants ought to be arrested and held without bail.
just kidding, but they do look hideous.
Visualante2
Member
Yeah they could have shot those valuable black market organs... that's just irresponsible.
EASTC0AST_GH05T
Member
im no police defender but this post is kinda right, if they decided to beat the man with batons and the scenario still played out the same way people would have been like really!? they beat him with a baton and shot him! its a lose lose situation. If I was a cop I would hope I never have to use my gun.
oh, the irony...
guys, you can't see enough evidence in any of the both videos. (second video is even worse than the first one)
calm your horses.
i am the first to call out shitty cops, they could've handled it better, but if he realy grabbed the gun, all gloves are of.
tryin to make facts out of a shitty, shacky video where the view even gets blocked several times isn't helping anyone.
I think the problem is the good cop-bad cop thing. Of course it's weird if we look at them like this. There is a difference between a racist cop that enjoys hurting minorities and the one that ignores it for the sake of inner peace or whatever reason. They are both bad, but differently though. I would propose that we divide them into bad (not actively hurting anyone, but accepting the actions of the worst cops, thus endorsing them indirectly or directly) and worst cops (any cop that does willing injustice).
And of course good cops who try to change things against all opppsition.
And of course good cops who try to change things against all opppsition.
EASTC0AST_GH05T
Member
looks to me like he put his gun away dropped his baton and put up his dukes to give the guy a fair one but what do I know.
EASTC0AST_GH05T
Member
too late, to many citizens in America have guns legally and illegally. The police would literally not be able to approach anyone without facing the higher risk of being shot or assaulted.
it sure looks to me like he tried to medle with the holster but then decided that the target was too close, I mean, Why would you drop a baton in the first place, it's meant for close encounters. It only tells me they have had no CQC courses.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
here is a tone of evidence regarding bad training.
Cop immediately drops his baton on the ground and reaches for his waist. Probably already semi released his weapon.
Then the MMA style ground and pound mount with no control of the guy. Fuck knows what the other officers are doing at this time?
Then the failed tazer. The gun shot goes off maybe a second after the tazer stops firing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if the man is holding on to something, 50,000 volts destroying his ability to actually fully control his muscles and in most cases causes people to close their current grip even tighter....
Long story short. Yes the MENTALLY ILL man refused to bow down to god and cure himself instantly in order to make cooperation easier, but, the police fucked up at every stage.
They failed to de escalate (something they're trained not to do anyway).
They failed to subdue him to the point where out of four cops, only one at the crucial point was actually doing anything (and the thing he decided to do was street fight). The other three were useless.
They failed to manage the situation.
They failed to not kill a person who despite their actions, did not need to die that day.
Maybe that's not a huge deal in America, but I personally feel not killing people you were simply trying to subdue is supposed to be a thing.
Cop immediately drops his baton on the ground and reaches for his waist. Probably already semi released his weapon.
Then the MMA style ground and pound mount with no control of the guy. Fuck knows what the other officers are doing at this time?
Then the failed tazer. The gun shot goes off maybe a second after the tazer stops firing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if the man is holding on to something, 50,000 volts destroying his ability to actually fully control his muscles and in most cases causes people to close their current grip even tighter....
Long story short. Yes the MENTALLY ILL man refused to bow down to god and cure himself instantly in order to make cooperation easier, but, the police fucked up at every stage.
They failed to de escalate (something they're trained not to do anyway).
They failed to subdue him to the point where out of four cops, only one at the crucial point was actually doing anything (and the thing he decided to do was street fight). The other three were useless.
They failed to manage the situation.
They failed to not kill a person who despite their actions, did not need to die that day.
Maybe that's not a huge deal in America, but I personally feel not killing people you were simply trying to subdue is supposed to be a thing.
gamechanger87
Member
You never pull your weapon unless you mean to use lethal force. You shoot until the target goes down or stops being a threat.
All of you shoot to incapacitate people need to stop watching movies and playing video games because shooting to incapacitate doesn't really happen in the real world. Try the below to see why.
Go to your local gun range, do 25 push ups, then immediately grab a hand gun and aim for a 6 inch moving target from 30 feet away. This is what it would be like after getting in a fight, pulling your weapon out and aiming for an arm or a leg. It doesn't happen. You aim center mass.
Regarding the deescalation, this scenario started off bad and this guy was in no mood to deescalate. Some people are just homeless and crazy, but the discussion around our homeless problem is for another thread. Unfortunately, the police are our primarily force to help homeless.
Because the good cops never seem to speak out against the bad ones, I'm left to assume they're all assholes who think it's OK to treat people like shit and hold the justice system hostage. It can't just be a coincidence that it's always only the regular citizens who express outrage. Even on their little PoliceOne message board where they can speak anonymously, you'd think the levelheaded ones would speak out, but it seems like universal agreement on every fucked up incident. So fuck 'em. They're all garbage and I give zero fucks.
King Tubby
Member
If the homeless guy really did grab the gun then you can't expect the police to do anything but shoot him there. And they will shoot until he's dead to make sure he can't get a shot off.
Even if that is indeed the case (and it's hard to tell from the video)...it's 4 on 1, how do you even let him get your gun in the first place. They should've been able to control and restrain his hands well before it got to that point. He was obviously mentally unstable. It's a tragedy.
I've seen cops on PoliceOne admit that a shooting was not justified before. They just tend to have a strong bias in favor of police officers for obvious reasons. It's not just a blue wall of silence thing (although that's obviously at play), cops try to give each other as much of the benefit of the doubt as possible.
Even if that is indeed the case (and it's hard to tell from the video)...it's 4 on 1, how do you even let him get your gun in the first place. They should've been able to control and restrain his hands well before it got to that point. He was obviously mentally unstable. It's a tragedy.
I've seen cops on PoliceOne admit that a shooting was not justified before. They just tend to have a strong bias in favor of police officers for obvious reasons. It's not just a blue wall of silence thing (although that's obviously at play), cops try to give each other as much of the benefit of the doubt as possible.
nephilimdj
Member
Even watching the old lady, cop tries to put her in a choke hold but the other cop pulls her away as the cop goes to wrap his arm around her.
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