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[StayDead]

1 million dollars? Did the first really cost that much?

 

[HoosTrax]

Pretty interesting rewards tiers, especially at the high end, although the HD 6870 reward is incredibly blah and a downgrade for me. They have some big-name sponsors it would seem, including AMD and Razer. They don't specific what sizes the T-shirts are available in (unisex aka men's sizes only, or women's as well).

 

[Palette Swap]

Pledged $15. I really liked the first game.

1 million dollars? Did the first really cost that much?

Read the previous page but that's what 10 people would cost for a year, being paid average wages. That's the budget extension they're trying to get funded BTW, not the budget itself.

 

[elektrixx]

I donated based on how much I liked the original, not what genre it is. I think Defense Grid is the best tower defense game ever.

 

[Romir]

1 million dollars? Did the first really cost that much?

Nah, that's what they need in addition to the funds they already have to make it happen.

IIRC, Double Fine Adventure's original 300k game budget (before fees) was for 2 programmers and 1 artist. Less than half a year development time and basically a mobile quality level experience too.

I feel really bad for this studio with a 32 person payroll in the industry at this time. There's no room for error.

 

[Kinyou]

$1 million for a tower defense game?

Wat?
I don't even care for graphics in a TD game. Bring on those 2D sprites if that's less expensive.

Also seems like they'll only release the addon for PC, so no real reason for me to donate.

 

[UraMallas]

Damn it. I want to do this. I don't have Defense Grid 1 so the Steam game is basically like me getting the second one for free if I back this. I also want to back that Ouya console. This is getting expensive. It's like pre-orders on steroids. Is Kickstarter going to start asking me to pre-order other games at check-out?

 

[HBroward]

I got in yesterday at the early bird $75 silver tier. The original is the highest quality tower defense game out there, even after four years on the market. Their support of it has been phenomenal, with great cheap dlc, the awesome portal levels, and the summer sale arg bit they added. I really hope this gets fully funded, and crosses the million dollar threshold.

 

[diamount]

What are they doing with the money developing CS GO for valve?

 

[Mackenzie 92]

Was the goal always $250k or did they lower it, but we only get a full sequel if they reach 1 million?

Confusing.

 

[Jo-El]

What are they doing with the money developing CS GO for valve?

Developing CS GO.

 

[UraMallas]

I backed it. Where's muh DG1 Steam code?

 

[Meier]

Developing CS GO.

There aren't contracted companies who are working at a loss or at cost unless they have multiple projects elsewhere that can help make one project float. There is no way they weren't operating on a healthy margin on CSGO.

 

[UraMallas]

The DB1 and DLC Steam keys are held up from sending because of a glitch. The devs said the keys would go out by end of day in the Kickstarter comments section.

 

[dallow_bg]

Read the previous page but that's what 10 people would cost for a year, being paid average wages. That's the budget extension they're trying to get funded BTW, not the budget itself.

Average wage for 10 employees at a semi-indie studio doing smaller-scale digital games is 100k?

I'm not saying the budget here is wrong.
Just the 1 million alone = 10 person's average wage is wrong.

 

[xbhaskarx]

How much, exactly, do you think games cost to produce?

Don't just throw a number out there. Tell me how you reached that number.

$2,184.

But don't games cost millions of dollars to make?

That's after gross net deduction profit percentage deferment ten percent of the nut. Cash, every game costs $2,184.

 

[UraMallas]

I feel like your math is off. Did you displace a decimal point?

 

[tjohn86]

Average wage for 10 employees at a semi-indie studio doing smaller-scale digital games is 100k?

I'm not saying the budget here is wrong.
Just the 1 million alone = 10 person's average wage is wrong.

Developers are expensive dude.

 

[Spierek]

Now that's something I can throw my money at. Enjoyed the first one very much.

 

[Forsaken82]

I backed it. Where's muh DG1 Steam code?

You could just buy it for 2.50 on steam right now?

 

[Forsaken82]

Average wage for 10 employees at a semi-indie studio doing smaller-scale digital games is 100k?

I'm not saying the budget here is wrong.
Just the 1 million alone = 10 person's average wage is wrong.

Maybe the plan is to hire more people? Maybe it includes additional benefits for the employee? There are a number of things that could be happening on the business side of things that you just don't need to know about.

 

[Palette Swap]

Average wage for 10 employees at a semi-indie studio doing smaller-scale digital games is 100k?

I'm not saying the budget here is wrong.
Just the 1 million alone = 10 person's average wage is wrong.

I'm not saying that's 100k wages per person. I'm saying all in all, once you account for all the costs created by having that person work for you (infrastructure, wages, payroll taxes), 100k a head every year seems fairly reasonable.

 

[The Lamonster]

I thought the first one sold really well?

Hell I bought it twice.

Ha, same here. So what is Hidden Path doing if they're not making DG 2?

 

[dLMN8R]

Average wage for 10 employees at a semi-indie studio doing smaller-scale digital games is 100k?

I'm not saying the budget here is wrong.
Just the 1 million alone = 10 person's average wage is wrong.

Businesses cost a shit-ton more to run than simply paying peoples' wages.

Ha, same here. So what is Hidden Path doing if they're not making DG 2?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=39739181&postcount=60

They're currently making Counter-Strike: Global Offensive.

 

[UraMallas]

You could just buy it for 2.50 on steam right now?

I saw that and wondered if that was Steam's idea or Hidden Path's. For someone like me, who would be purchasing a new copy of the game, the fact that the game is on sale on Steam is counterproductive to the Kickstarter program - it undercuts it. If the idea is to generate buzz and word of mouth I definitely think that was a bad move.

 

[Chris R]

The goal seems like a LOT of money. I'm interested since I really enjoyed the first game, but don't think I'll be one of the backers as of right now. I'd totally be down for buying the game if/when it drops on steam, even at a higher price than the $5 I paid for the original.

 

[Palette Swap]

I saw that and wondered if that was Steam's idea or Hidden Path's. For someone like me, who would be purchasing a new copy of the game, the fact that the game is on sale on Steam is counterproductive to the Kickstarter program - it undercuts it. If the idea is to generate buzz and word of mouth I definitely think that was a bad move.

I was going to give away the extra DG key in the Steam thread but I can't honestly imagine how someone who isn't willing to pay two and a half bucks for it right now would be interested in it.

 

[Harlock]

Defense Grid is great. Played the Steam and Live version. I love the narrator and all the good balance of the game. Has an "old pc game feel" very cool.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

I loved Defense Grid. The one of the few smartly put together tower defense games that I've played, probably the best. But, I'll buy the game when it's done, not when it's not even started yet. Is that so much to ask?

 

[Minsc]

I loved Defense Grid. The one of the few smartly put together tower defense games that I've played, probably the best. But, I'll buy the game when it's done, not when it's not even started yet. Is that so much to ask?

Well, they have no money to make the game, and there's no publisher that wants to see it made in the way they want it to exist. So if this fails, there will be no game for you to buy later, at least not a true sequel free of IAP/F2P trappings. So whether it's too much to ask depends mostly on whether there's enough people without you to get it funded.

 

[UraMallas]

Well, they have no money to make the game, and there's no publisher that wants to see it made in the way they want it to exist. So if this fails, there will be no game for you to buy later, at least not a true sequel free of IAP/F2P trappings. So whether it's too much to ask depends mostly on whether there's enough people without you to get it funded.

I would argue that it is too much to ask of Mr. B Natural and that's fine. It's not too much to ask of me, though.

 

[rohlfinator]

I loved Defense Grid. The one of the few smartly put together tower defense games that I've played, probably the best.

Yep. It was the first tower defense that I actually put any time into, and as a result everything else I've tried has been kind of disappointing. That's the only reason I'm not balking at the amount they're asking -- very few other TD games are even in the same league as the original Defense Grid.

I don't blame anyone for not wanting to back it, though. One of the great things about Kickstarter is that it's totally a personal choice, and there are other venues to get the product (assuming they succeed, of course).

 

[UraMallas]

Just got the email and the steam download codes for DG1 and all the DLC.

Found something interesting on the Kickstarter page for this game. Defense Grid has sold 750K across all platforms:

Copies of DG1: On Steam there are about 500,000 players, there are about 50,000 other PC copies not on Steam, and there are about 200,000 Xbox 360 players.

Ura's EDIT: I'm pretty much the last to post in this thread. I wonder why there isn't a whole lot of interest in this Kickstarter here.

 

[Slermy]

I backed it as soon as I got the e-mail.

 

[Tarrasque]

I thought the first one sold really well?

Hell I bought it twice.

It sold so well I got laid off from the company! Oh well. Hoping this gets the funding, they're a good group of folks and deserve a chance to make the games they love. Mark Terrano (In the video) was the lead designer on Age Of Empires 2, pretty amazing to have a chance to work with him.

 

[Codeblue]

You could just buy it for 2.50 on steam right now?

Yeah, but if this falls flat you get it for free.

 

[dallow_bg]

Developers are expensive dude.

I wish every developer in the world made that kind of money.

I'm not saying that's 100k wages per person. I'm saying all in all, once you account for all the costs created by having that person work for you (infrastructure, wages, payroll taxes), 100k a head every year seems fairly reasonable.

Agreed... Depending on the company. .
Not for these guys.

Businesses cost a shit-ton more to run than simply paying peoples' wages..

I know. But he said wages.
I guess I took it too literally.

 

[Slermy]

It sold so well I got laid off from the company! Oh well. Hoping this gets the funding, they're a good group of folks and deserve a chance to make the games they love. Mark Terrano (In the video) was the lead designer on Age Of Empires 2, pretty amazing to have a chance to work with him.

Ugh, that sucks to hear. I really enjoyed the game and purchased all of the DLC.

 

[dLMN8R]

I know. But he said wages.
I guess I took it too literally.

You should read it more closely - he was referencing my post:

Tell me the number of people you think it takes to create a game, how much it costs to employ those people, how much extra business costs add to that total, and then consider taxes, the cut of the total money Kickstarter and Amazon both take out of the total, and then how much they need to profit so that they can continue to exist in the future rather than simply breaking even.

By paying people decent wages, *and* all else considered, $1 million can probably fund a company of 10 people working for a year - especially $1 million coming from a Kickstarter, where they need to use a lot of it to fulfill rewards, and both KS and Amazon take a cut from the total.

 

[Offerizer]

I reinstalled DG yesterday and they are running weekly competitions where you can win prizes along with the kickstarter. I fell back in the medal/highscore race again! This must reach 1m$!

 

[Minsc]

By paying people decent wages, *and* all else considered, $1 million can probably fund a company of 10 people working for a year - especially $1 million coming from a Kickstarter, where they need to use a lot of it to fulfill rewards, and both KS and Amazon take a cut from the total.

Which still beats taking 2x that amount or more from a publisher and not getting any money from the game's sales, not owning the IP, and losing more creative control in the design process, all causing you to become even more desperate the next time around. Yet this is what many people want developers to do, continue signing contracts with publishers that are 100x worse than losing a chunk of the money raised from a kickstarter.

 

[mclem]

Businesses cost a shit-ton more to run than simply paying peoples' wages.

I seem to recall hearing that a reasonable rule of thumb is that to employ a person costs around double that person's wage.

 

[dLMN8R]

Which still beats taking 2x that amount or more from a publisher and not getting any money from the game's sales, not owning the IP, and losing more creative control in the design process, all causing you to become even more desperate the next time around. Yet this is what many people want developers to do, continue signing contracts with publishers that are 100x worse than losing a chunk of the money raised from a kickstarter.

Yeah, and this is what was confusing to me in the quotes of their's I posted on the previous page - specifically this one:

We were in a situation before with some investment that let us borrow money for DG, then pay back with its profits. Unfortunately we aren't in that situation any more, and the profits aren't enough to cover DG2 (we've reinvested heavily already though)

To me, it seems like that should say "fortunately"

 

[HBroward]

I really hope this is able to gain some momentum, despite the steam sale. Maybe it will pick up a bit when the sale is over.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Hopefully a lot more people get the chance to play the You Monster campaign they released late last year. I hadn't heard about it until a few months ago, but it's a really great expansion. (Lots of bugs introduced in the XBLA version of the game, unfortunately.)

Between all the new modes and the three expansions, Defense Grid has had really great support. Going by the progress of the Kickstarter so far, it doesn't look like they'll get near the $1m mark, but hopefully it clears the first threshold for another expansion. It's still one of the best games I've played this generation.

To me, it seems like that should say "fortunately"

Well, that arrangement let them develop the game and retain IP rights with seemingly little if any meddling. That would be preferable to most publisher contracts these days. It sounds like if they could do it again, they would, but the funds are not available, which led them to the Kickstarter.

 

[rohlfinator]

Which still beats taking 2x that amount or more from a publisher and not getting any money from the game's sales, not owning the IP, and losing more creative control in the design process, all causing you to become even more desperate the next time around. Yet this is what many people want developers to do, continue signing contracts with publishers that are 100x worse than losing a chunk of the money raised from a kickstarter.

Yeah, this type of funding model seems immensely preferable from both the customer and developer end, so it's sad to see opposition to it for bigger projects like this.

RPS just posted about this Kickstarter today, so hopefully that gives it a bit of momentum.

 

[GazzaScotland]

The first one sold great, but I'm guessing the vast majority got it in a Steam Sale, cutting how much they got in returns. Factor in development costs, staff bonuses, etc. I don't see the problem with this, its not like they were rolling in it from the first game.

Backing this for sure.

 

[Slermy]

It would help if Kotaku and/or Joystiq picked up the story for exposure. I get the feeling not enough people know about this.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Kind of funny that even with a proven developer who is being very transparent and frank about a project, many people are still weirded out by Kickstarter and the notion of backing a project you want to see completed.

People complain about the industry not allowing devs to make games like this and screwing devs over with contractual manipulation.

Devs find a new way to get it done.

People complain that devs should do it the old way that wasn't working, because the new way is scary and different.

 

[MadmanUK]

No brainer for me. I bought the original for PC & 360 along with all DLC. I must've put over 100 hours over both versions. This is a god tier TD but a mil seems steep especially as it's a sequel to an already popular game and i've kickstarted a few games recently and they have all been ambitious new ip's with lower goals.
Oh well as long as it gets made i'll be like a pig in the proverbial.