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[balladofwindfishes]

Thanks, we'll stop here boy

Bernie fans showing everyone how sweet and pleasant they are

Stop being an ass, grow up and think critically. It's not Hillary that needs to convince voters, it's Bernie. He's the one facing an uphill battle, not her. The sides are not even, she has a very real advantage over him that cannot be stressed enough.

 

[Grug]

I'm on team Bernie all the way but I am disappointed to say that Clinton was the clear winner in that debate.

Bernie needs to diversify his talking points and his rhetoric and provide more flexible rebuttals on his feet, because I fear he is getting a faint whiff of Robot Rubio about him.

He missed so many opportunities tonight to expand and substantiate his views in more of a public policy context.

He is unquestionably being poorly coached for debates. The Wall Street stuff is great but he is just repeatedly preaching to the converted. There is a bigger spring to tap into.

How hard would it be for him to reach out to the moderates a little bit... something along the lines of "I am a believer in the principle of free markets... they are the best underlying force for organising an economy and sending signals on the base wants and needs of consumers and provides strong incentives for people and entrepreneurs to innovate and work hard for the betterment of themselves and others. However it is a key role of government to manage the dark side of markets and to intervene when the imbalance of wealth gets too far in favour of the wealthy elites... it is the role of government to make sure that this wealth and privilege doesn't infect and pervert our democracy and sell out the system, allowing the wealthiest amongst us to shirk their responsibilities to give back to the system that allowed them to prosper, and give a fair deal to the workers whose blood and sweat has made them rich".

This is what the moderates want to hear, keep serving up hot heaping ladels of rage against wealth inequality but pay some lip service to the market economy to ensure people you aren't going to toss the baby out with the bathwater - and that would push Hillary on the defensive.

 

[A Human Becoming]

This is such a silly line of thought.

I don't think it's silly to say MLK wouldn't agree with everything Obama has done.

 

[Eidan]

From a voter standpoint, it was a smart move. From...I don't know what viewpoint...I would've loved to see her invoke Obama, then talk about how what he built that can be expanded on. How we can move forward. She talked about moving forward, but was spotty on the details. It was a little too much "Obama Obama".

Really? I feel like she repeatedly discussed how she wanted to build on what was created during the Obama years. Financial regulation and health care we're all about it. Hell, the fact that she wanted to build on the ACA was one of the major back and forths.

 

[Manmademan]

I'd argue we don't need a Reagan. That doesn't mean Obama can't be invoked. Hugging all of his policies though does nothing for us, especially when we should continue moving forward.

Hillary is/was a member of the current administration, and has made no secret of continuing his policies.

"hugging obama" is entirely justified.

 

[Bronx-Man]

I guess in the same way you're ignoring your bullshit generalizations, yeah.

You're deluding yourself if you don't believe that a large majority of Sander's fanbase come from new or relatively-newish voters.

 

[hom3land]

Anymore planned debates or town halls?

 

[foxtrot3d]

Depends on metrics. I think Carter was the best man to serve other than Obama in the entire history of the republic.

Well, those are some really strange metrics you are using considering his policies, especially his economic policies. I don't know any serious political scientist that would rank him anywhere near the top.

 

[Jigorath]

So we're just gonna ignore the multiple generalizations of Hillary voters in this thread?

Eye for an eye huh?

 

[SURGEdude]

good lord do hillary and sanders supporters just loathe each other or what

either of them would be infinitely better than what's on the republican side, come on now

No but we're the most honest with our friends.

I know lots of great Hillary people and I don't resent them. I just think Bernie's better.

 

[Trojita]

I find it weird that pundits (on PBS) are shitting on knowing about past American Foreign Relation policies.

 

[...Scatter...]

Just makes her look weak. Using that clutch, stand on your own ground.

Why? She a) worked for him for 4 years and b) he did a good job.

Why wouldn't you want to tie yourself to the person who did a good job and remind people that you will do the same?

 

[Tabris]

What exactly is your problem with TPP?

Everything. TPP is a disaster for the average middle class citizen in most participating countries.

 

[GnawtyDog]

What a load of rubbish. Neither has even run for president yet. Let's not jump the gun. And I don't think he will be held as highly as you presume. Cool, collected, funny, commanding, responsible for making some decent policies and strides, but also very ineffective on foreign policy, and failing to make many of the major changes promised (especially reshaping Wall St, where instead he basically offered more of the same), as well as detrimental to privacy and freedoms with the whole NSA, Manning and Snowden stuff. Mostly positive, but with some serious negatives.

Best foreign policy in decades. Not sure what's your standard.

 

[Officerrob]

Anymore planned debates or town halls?

Plenty. We went from too few debates to too many

 

[Psychoward]

You're deluding yourself if you don't believe that a large majority of Sander's fanbase come from new or relatively-newish voters.

So then there's nothing they could have done about voting in midterms they weren't eligible to vote in! Nice to hear.


Them being young isn't the only thing you generalized btw

 

[damisa]

So more foreign policy turmoil, endless, pointless and hawkish destabilising military engagements, more invasive anti privacy and freedom measures, and another future inevitable economic crash. Great.

Obama did a decent job with what he had, but we need much, much better. Not more of the same.

Way to ignore all the good things and focus on only the bad. Not to mention our military adventures under Obama are tiny compared to past presidents, and LOL at believing Bernie could magically stop economic crashes/recesssions.

But if Bernie fans want to go with the strategy of dissing Obama, then by all means continue. All it does it hurt Bernie.

As a side note your defense of Bernie's foreign policy was terrible. Bernie's plan to have Saudi Arabia and Iran work together is laughablly naive, might as well say he plans to stop ISIS by saying "pretty please stop" to them

 

[Machina]

Eye for an eye huh?

That's what happens when people pick a side, instead of scrutinize on merit.

 

[nib95]

Best foreign policy in decades.

You are joking right? Just because it wasn't the stinking mess Bush's was, doesn't mean it was actually remotely good. Entire regions destabiled under Obama, partly because of his and others support for example, of the rebels in Syria, who ended up turning in to ISIS.

 

[SURGEdude]

Well, those are some really strange metrics you are using considering his policies, especially his economic policies. I don't know any serious political scientist that would rank him anywhere near the top.

He was the most compassionate person to hold the office. His life story is decent evidence of such. Of course you have every right to disagree.

 

[GetLucky]

Really tired of Hillary namedropping LGBT as if she gives a hoot. For the vast majority of her career, she was okay with throwing us under the bus. And now she thinks she can get our support just by mentioning us every now and then. Not buying it for a second. Words are worthless, actions are what matter.

I wish Bernie would stop mentioning the word "revolution", even if he's right that one is needed. It's just going to make him sound like a loony radical, or worse, like Ron Paul, and he can't afford that if he wants to win the general election.

She does give a hoot. Were you aware she's been endorsed by prominent members of the LGBT community including the Human Rights Campaign? They explain why at length here http://www.hrc.org/blog/human-rights-campaign-endorses-hillary-clinton-for-president

 

[ivysaur12]

It feels like the "primary Obama" stuff is about to kick into overdrive

Yup. They've been holding that until Southern states.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

more a reminder that 50% of America are empathyless assholes.

Apathetic.

And no, that's not what's gonna happen down south.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Is this a real question?

Yes, I made a whole thread about his about a month ago and got like zero replies. I find that many of the people opposed to the agreement haven't even bothered to read it but just harp on the "it's terrible" train that a few internet commentators have spouted.

Everything. TPP is a disaster for the average middle class citizen in most participating countries.

How so? Because globalization is bad and leads to people losing jobs?

 

[shinra-bansho]

On the whole, I don't know if this will change much.

She started much better than he I think.

On money in politics, Hillary is still bad. She should really just be upfront and say, yes, I'll take it because without it we're going to get crushed by Koch money.

On FP, Sanders has studied up but it was a history textbook rather than a look at modern threats - it still looks like he's more interested in bring up the past rather than putting together what he plans to change, and it stood out actually a bit more in some of the things he brought up. So better, not great.

I'm not entirely sure how the ending will play. I think it could have been a good pivot, but I don't know if she took it too far. If it becomes the story though, I don't think it will be good for him amongst minorities with whom Obama is incredibly popular.

Throughout the debate, Sanders repeatedly looked highly flustered in split screens. It's something that probably should be worked on.

She may as well have said she was running for Obama's third term.

Also burning hate of a thousand suns for each other, like lasers from their eyes.

 

[Dan]

So finally Bernie is studying up on foreign policy. The problem is I don't think he's actually studying up so much on foreign policy as he is studying up on Hillary's history with foreign policy. Rather than offering insights, Bernie came equipped with a lot of attacks but didn't have much substance of his own to offer.

To be fair, foreign policy is not easy.

He has a lot of examples of what he would not do, but very little to say about what he would do.

1. Identify problem.
2. Point out flaws in a previously-tried solution.
3. ???
4. Problem is fixed.

 

[Big Baybee]

I don't think it's silly to say MLK wouldn't agree with everything Obama has done.

It's silly because he eas murdered in 1968 and no one knows how his views would continue to mold over time. Though at the time of his death, he was certainly way to the left of Obama.

 

[gutter_trash]

Hillary's shoutout to Obama is smart strategy

a) woo Obama supporters to chose her
b) Obama is popular among African-AMericans
c) absolute party loyalty

 

[ATF487]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...hecking-martin-omalleys-claim-bernie-sanders/

IMO there's nothing wrong with this. It's not good politics, and it could definitely hurt him, I won't argue that, but nothing about that is outrageous. He wanted more discussion and for Obama to be pulled leftward. Progressive in advocating progressive policies shocker.

 

[Sickboy007]

So we're just gonna ignore the multiple generalizations of Hillary voters in this thread?

How about we at least limit the personal attacks while drawing inevitable generalisations?

 

[Kimawolf]

So then there's nothing they could have done about voting in midterms they weren't eligible to vote in! Nice to hear.


Them being young isn't the only thing you generalized btw

Hell well looking at how bad democrats lost the midterms, seems like most Obama supporters didn't vote either.

 

[Dangansona]

I used to be neutral on Hillary, but the most debates I watch with her the more I despise her. Sure you care about the African American and LGBT communities. Sure all that money you get doesn't have any impact on any decisions you make.

 

[GnawtyDog]

You are joking right?

No. Obvious disagreement heh...

 

[Machina]

Yes, I made a whole thread about his about a month ago and got like zero replies. I find that many of the people opposed to the agreement haven't even bothered to read it but just harp on the "it's terrible" train that a few internet commentators have spouted.



How so? Because globalization is bad and leads to people losing jobs?

You probably didn't get any responses because people were shocked that you were even asking. Taken as a whole, the TPP is a terrible thing for the world.

 

[SecretDan]

I don't think it's silly to say MLK wouldn't agree with everything Obama has done.

That was never the original argument.

Someone said Obama's photo would be on the wall alongside Jesus and MLK.

And then Tabris decided to tell us what MLK thinks.

 

[excelsiorlef]

MSNBC is talking about Bernie wanting to primary Obama

Good. It should be talked about

 

[Aaron]

Agree with this. She was extremely effective at framing Bernie to not be pro Obama and it really is quite difficult for Bernie to talk about wanting a revolution and support the policies of the last 8 years.

Have the policies of the last eight years been so super great? Obama has done a lot to mend the fences Dubya smashed through, but we still have mass deportation, severe income inequality, mass incarceration, shrinking middle class, corperations not being held accountable, etc. We have a lot of problems, and Hillary's staying the course doesn't seem like a such a great policy.

 

[SURGEdude]

On the whole, I don't know if this will change much.

She started much better than he I think.

On money in politics, Hillary is still bad. She should really just be upfront and say, yes, I'll take it because without it we're going to get crushed by Koch money.

On FP, Sanders has studied up but it was a history textbook rather than a look at modern threats - it still looks like he's more interested in bring up the past rather than putting together what he plans to change, and it stood out actually a bit more in some of the things he brought up. So better, not great.

I'm not entirely sure how the ending will play. I think it could have been a good pivot, but I don't know if she took it too far.

Throughout the debate, Sanders repeatedly looked highly flustered in split screens. It's something that probably should be worked on.

Also burning hate of a thousand suns for each other, like lasers from their eyes.

They both improved greatly over past debates. But their strong points stayed. Bernie seemed out in the woods over foreign policy and Clinton seemed disingenuous when it came to domestic progressive reform.

I hope one of them win this thing and I'm sure they will.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Eye for an eye huh?

If people wanna dish it out, they damn well better be able to take it as well.

 

[Yamauchi]

I liked...

'I'm proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.'

Bernie bringing up Operation Ajax (though he said the consequences were unintended, when in fact they were very intentional) and America's Libya policy.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

So we're all just a bunch of uninformed negroes that need to be enlightened apparently.

Tabris knows best for us...

I'm talking about all Americans. Too many American voters vote on superficial attributes instead of platform and facts / statistics. Same could be said about any citizen but it's more present in America.

Oh, and here's the candidate for my old riding (our political system is different then yours) I had voted for in the past in Canada:

She had the best platform items.

He has black friends.

 

[Justin]

I feel like Biden could've walked away with the nom.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Read my response to his response on the last page.

And yes I'm at the edge on the old end.

I did read it. It's still incredibly self-aggrandizing to label someone else as an "other" just because their politics don't line up with yours one hundred percent.

Hillary Clinton is a progressive. She's obviously not as far left as Sanders, but that doesn't make her or her followers non-progressives. That's divisive talk that, frankly, sounds more at home on a GOP debate stage.

Shitting on members of your own political class only divides us. It makes us weaker. If this is the outcome of the "Revolution" Sanders is talking about, I want no part of it.

 

[studyguy]

Good lord take the personal jabs to PM guys.

 

[Psychoward]

If people wanna dish it out, they damn well better be able to take it as well.

Except you're not dishing it out to those same people and in general making the thread a chore to read.

 

[SURGEdude]

If people wanna dish it out, they damn well better be able to take it as well.

Something something blind

 

[lastflowers]

Sanders fans physically can't do that. They're new to the political process in general, they're the type of people that thought Obama was Jesus resurrected and then proceeded to plant their asses to the couch when the 2010 and 2014 elections happened.

lol

 

[M0nochromatic]

The Debate itself was pretty entertaining. On one hand I like the lax moderation for where it leads to, but it would nice for it to be a bit more strict. Hillary was pretty good. I've come around on her, but Berns still my man.

So we're just gonna ignore the multiple generalizations of Hillary voters in this thread?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Act accordingly.

 

[foxtrot3d]

You probably didn't get any responses because people were shocked that you were even asking. Taken as a whole, the TPP is a terrible thing for the world.

You keep saying that but don't list any specific examples.

 

[ShowDog]

Watching it I felt like Bernie was really taking it to her. I'm surprised that wasn't consensus, reminds me of watching a boxing match and waiting for scoring lol.