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[nib95]

No, it's about:

-GAF changing society
-Books explaining how the Internet and message boards influence things
-Jeff Bell "exposed" by mods
-Tags
-Business ethics
-Kittonwy getting invited to a party
-Priests, clocks, and prayer, society not taking religion as seriously but still using time, and how it relates to NeoGAF moving forward
-A bunch of other pretentious things

All thanks to Mr. Dyack.

Pretty much nailed it. Also, as others have said, Kudo's to Garnett for being the only one to stand up and argue some of Dyack's faltering points.

 

[Azzurri]

I love the star wars kid reference.

 

[akachan ningen]

Kittonwy, are you going to the TH launch party? :lol

 

[Victrix]

I'm trying to fathom how this is real

 

[SlasherJPC]

DYACK... you are one serious man.

 

[JasonUresti]

Like I said. His core idea is spot on. But ascribing it to gender is ludicrous.

Sim did have some strong points on reason vs. emotion, but it always bothered me that, in describing his views, he rarely used reason to come to these conclusions, instead relying on anecdotes and his, yes, feelings.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

SRSLY....

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I agree, I think Garnett is pretty switched on indeed, but have you heard the podcast? He does calls Dyack on the Bell thing, but mostly he sits back with everyone else. I think that was lame. They should have called him on virtually everything he said. It's all mostly bollocks.

I think he waited for the bullet points to be over. I'm sure they all had the details of this tirade in front of them and were going to let him air it out. You'll note that Garnett's rebuttal isn't specific to the last point, it's a straight up, "But dude, it's NeoGAF," which is probably what he wanted to say the whole time.

 

[GhaleonQ]

Like I said. His core idea is spot on. But ascribing it to gender is ludicrous.

Nah. Whether in theology or gender politics (and I'm a conservative in both cases), Sim built a bridge to the wrong destination. Dyack's only playing with Legos, and he just gets them stuck up his nose.

Edit: While I applaud Dyack for reading so much, has he ever read a basic rhetoric text? If his mind is set on debating, he should at least be more skilled than the 1-Up fellows.

 

[A Human Becoming]

What I don't understand about Denis is why couldn't he just let his game speak for itself when it was released? Why did he have to do all this? Making that topic and ranting on 1UP Yours isn't going to change anything. He has some good ideas but he acts childish in the process.

Bottom line is, if you truly believe in what you're doing, you ignore the criticism and lack of faith. Only when it is done and everyone realizes what you've created is something special, do you feel a satisfaction few people ever experience.

 

[Armitage]

On the other hand, I understand how Denis must feel about being persecuted. He made games on a Nintendo console, which probably pissed off MS/Sony fanboys. Then he remade Metal Gear Solid, the crown jewel of the PS1, on the cube, pissing off hordes of sweaty internet users in the process. THEN he switches TH to the 360, pissing off his formerly loyal fanboy legion.

So basically, he's systematically pissed off the entire fanboy population of the net. Which is, uh, most of the net. And when the fat jokes start coming, it's no longer about the quality of the game, it's personal, unfair, and irrelevant. The thing is, it's only personal on one side - Dyack's side. We're all semi-anonymous, purple tinted, head leaning nerds. It's only natural that'd he'd get personal back at us.

In the end I really do think it comes down to:

We need to be convinced, Denis, and regardless of whether or not you've done a good job developing the game, you've done a very bad job convincing us.

but Id love for you to prove me wrong!

 

[Kusagari]

I agree, I think Garnett is pretty switched on indeed, but have you heard the podcast? He does calls Dyack on the Bell thing, but mostly he sits back with everyone else. I think that was lame. They should have called him on virtually everything he said. It's all mostly bollocks.

Think about it for a second, if you were in studio with the man spitting this babble at you in person could you really respond that quickly? The stuff is just mind blowing in how over the top it is.

 

[Cmagus]

i thought he made valid points myself

 

[heliosRAzi]

Pargon Pargon Neogaf Pargon Pargon

*forum destroyed*

Quickly Alex! We must bind this forum! It cannot remain in this universe!

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Sim did have some strong points on reason vs. emotion, but it always bothered me that, in describing his views, he rarely used reason to come to these conclusions, instead relying on anecdotes and his, yes, feelings.

Yup. It's the irony of the whole thing.

 

[Drinky Crow]

i think we can all agree to not discuss denis dyack and too human if he in turn agrees not to discuss himself or too human

which came first, the chicken of chest-puffing hyperbole, or the egg of anonymous jackheel criticism

 

[Replicant]

"He went batshit crazy on GAF"
"He's gonna get slaughtered"

:lol :lol :lol This thread continues to deliver. And props to Garnett for having balls to say the truth.

 

[careksims]

Denis just needs to hold out til Too Human is released to the masses. What's better to eat than popcorn. This is too good.

 

[Pojo]

Here's the thing though... NeoGAF is NeoGAF because it is NeoGAF. If we all became self-correcting and overly concerned about not hurting feelings, we'd end up as castrated as the gaming media.

People read NeoGAF because we are honest... brutally so. You put one Enter the Matrix screen out where a car has square tires, we tell you your game looks like shit from day one. We don't go the IGN/1up/Gamespot route and write endless, pointless hopeful previews that withhold judgment and essentially parrot PR. We call it like we see it. THAT is why the industry reads NeoGAF. . . Just the same, if a game looked shitty & improves, we'll admit it and will become the best salesmen for a game you could possibly imagine. We are passionate about games, either way. People, including the industry, respond to that.

We can't and shouldn't try to change what we are. We are valuable as we are. Let other websites try to live up to Dyack's idealism. Let us be us.

Actually, that's absolutely not what professional videogame journalism needs to be taken seriously in our society. NeoGAF can be as stupid as any other video game website, but it's already understood that a huge community of fanboys will get a tad overzealous from time to time.

But I laughed my ass off at this part all the same:

You put one Enter the Matrix screen out where a car has square tires, we tell you your game looks like shit from day one.

 

[xbhaskarx]

I defended Too Human on multiple occasions. That's just cold, Denis.

:lol

 

[x2y]

I never heard of this Dyack guy till recently, but he sounds as pathetic as his game does.

 

[alistairw]

Like I said. His core idea is spot on. But ascribing it to gender is ludicrous.

Awesome analogy, but the fact is, even at his most didactically insane, Sim's work is worth reading. Too Human could well be a complete disaster.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Nah. Whether in theology or gender politics (and I'm a conservative in both cases), Sim built a bridge to the wrong destination. Dyack's only playing with Legos, and he just gets them stuck up his nose.

:lol

So well put.

 

[Armitage]

Pargon Pargon Neogaf Pargon Pargon

*forum destroyed*

You fool, pargon is POWER!

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

Seriously.

Just watched the pre-show vid on 1UP Yours and I have to say that Garnett is quickly becoming one of my favorite people in the gaming industry. He doesn't beat around the bush and he says exactly what he means.

As for Denis, why would you start this shitstorm in the first place? You ask us what we think with little or no info to go on....and yet you come back and berate us for giving you an answer.

A better time for his thread would have been after we had a demo to work off of.

I'm still stupified. Seriously. He is fighting a losing battle.

Garnett also had a great facepalm pose near the end of the clip

 

[PS2 KID]

Think about it for a second, if you were in studio with the man spitting this babble at you in person could you really respond that quickly? The stuff is just mind blowing in how over the top it is.

He's probably thinking, "Holy Shit. Have I got a live one here!" and just let him babble. :lol

 

[NH Apache]

I agree, I think Garnett is pretty switched on indeed, but have you heard the podcast? He does calls Dyack on the Bell thing, but mostly he sits back with everyone else. I think that was lame. They should have called him on virtually everything he said. It's all mostly bollocks.

Yup, listening now while playing AoE II . I am enjoying it thoroughly, rewinding A LOT, thinking, did Dyack just say what I thought he said?!!!

 

[rollingstart]

SRSLY....

http://i26.tinypic.com/1zlbvx3.gif

That is the one gif I am glad I made, but it was the only gif I didn't make for this forum. Someone else posted it here.

 

[LCfiner]

I am curious about weather Dyack is against previews or not now, because he was commending 1up for writing a un-bias review of Too Human, but I assume that is only because he liked that the preview was fairly positive with his game. I seem to remember him hating previews in 2006 when many of them said the early build of his game at E3 was bad. I guess he didn't have the thick skin or ability to accept when people say he is wrong back then. Am I to assume that Dyack will start liking gaming forums again in 2 years then? I think that Gaming coverage on television is rising up with daily episodes of X-Play and Gametrailers TV, maybe that can be the new thing to rail against when they say something negative about the next project.

You posted this before I could and i think it's a good point. He made a big deal before about how games should be 100% completed and then marketed for a few months and then released and reviewed. interesting theory but instead of attempting to follow this and give out proper review code last week, he (or perhaps SK and MS together) sends out preview code of the entire friggin game and wants it handled with "preview only" kid gloves.

It's the whole game. Game journalists should be able to write about their experiences with it. good and bad.

It sounds hypocritical to me. Either don't give out the preview code -- perhaps only for a few levels. OR send out the review code and shut up about the resulting articles.

It's maddening listening to him talk about this.

 

[Windu]

:lol wow.

 

[Azelover]

It seems like the viral marketers from over at Microsoft are working even now, interesting. It still amazes me some people get fooled, it's like a press release, no other company would ever do it this much.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Awesome analogy, but the fact is, even at his most didactically insane, Sim's work is worth reading. Too Human could well be a complete disaster.

AbsoLUTELY. I went Garnett on that original post and brought up that very idea extensively, that Too Human will most assuredly not be the Cerebus of video games and then deleted it (or wait, did I leave that in?).

Anyway, yeah. Ultimately Cerebus is an amazing work and its flaws are not in its craftsmanship, which even in the final issues was among the best in the field, but rather its intent. Too Human has flaws all over the place.

 

[miyuru]

Can we ban Denis Dyack? I can't believe he had to audacity to start the thread that he did, and GAF did him a favour by actually going with it. No shit we don't have the game in front of us to play! I can't believe this guy.

Anyone else who would've created a thread as ridiculous as that would have had it locked on the spot and possibly banned IMO.

BTW if he was banned and I missed it, sorry. I only read the first 3 pages of this thread before posting this reply.

 

[Stealth]

Denis, thanks for Eternal Darkness and whatever it was that you did to get Twin Snakes into my hands. But really, you can go away now. No one cares about the Tao of Denis Dyack and your ruminations on humanity's downfall. You were supposed to do all that stuff in your game coming out this August.

Only, the early word is that your game kinda sucks, and the plot you promised isn't quite there. So you're not making a great game, and you're not making a great point about how terrible GAF is for you and the rest of the world. Youtube comments are the end of the civilized world, not GAF. That leaves you with, as your friend Jeff Bell would say, nothing to contribute to society. You're in Jack Thompson "bullshit my way into getting attention" territory. Stop it.

Go back and make another game and ignore GAF like almost every industry developer whose game gets shat on does. Too Human is your New Coke. Eternal Darkness 2 will be Coke Classic. And you will be redeemed when you finally make it. Hopefully. But that's your call.

 

[nib95]

It seems like the viral marketers from over at Microsoft are working even now, interesting. It still amazes me some people get fooled, it's like a press release.

A press release trying to get people NOT to buy the game you mean?

 

[Iaido Sword]

1up reported that the 2.40 fw is removed... I thought it is now back up? >_>??

 

[KdoubleA]

You posted this before I could and i think it's a good point. He made a big deal before about how games should be 100% completed and then marketed for a few months and then released and reviewed. interesting theory but instead of attempting to follow this and give out proper review code last week, he (or perhaps SK and MS together) sends out preview code of the entire friggin game and wants it handled with "preview only" kid gloves.

It's the whole game. Game journalists should be able to write about their experiences with it. good and bad.

It sounds hypocritical to me. Either don't give out the preview code -- perhaps only for a few levels. OR send out the review code and shut up about the resulting articles.

It's maddening listening to him talk about this.

Exactly!! That's what I was thinking the whole time I was listening to this.

It's fucking hypocritical indeed.

Also, all this bullshit about how he used Metacritic for a reason and then refers to some book...some water cooler crap...

SHUT

Spoiler

THE FUCK

UP...!!!!

Social statement my ass...I'm sorry, Denis...but I don't think anyone will believe your "excuse"!!!

This is a fucking gaming message board...There will be a wide range of opinions (some fair and some unfair...but they're still opinions)....There will always be people who jump to conclusions; just like you see in a movies forum or a music forum.

If Too Human bombs, it's not the message boards' fault...and it's definitely not GAF's.

I know I'm probably coming off as a Too Human hater but I'm not...I'm actually anticipating the game but seriously, Denis...Just stop rambling.

 

[Azelover]

A press release trying to get people NOT to buy the game you mean?

Heh no, just a couple of separate posts, this is out of control already, but it's interesting that now that E3 is approaching, even this subject is getting some trying to get a hold of. There are some company lines you'll see pasted all over. I'm seeing it already.

 

[Bizzyb]

I do agree with Dyack about the personal attacks. That kind of stuff is totally unnecessary. You don't have to like the guy but posting possibly offensive images, photoshops, etc should be (if offensive enough) ban worthy

That aside, NeoGaf probably does more good for this industry than bad, esp when it comes to community and user feedback that publishers, developers can use.

I'm looking at You Ubisoft!

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Did the best I could trying to explain a long and fairly complex argument in a short news piece. But, then, you refuse to listen to 1UY, so I probably am wasting my time.

Then why'd you make him sound so crazie? Don't deny your obvious hit piece on the poor guy.

 

[alistairw]

AbsoLUTELY. I went Garnett on that original post and brought up that very idea extensively, that Too Human will most assuredly not be the Cerebus of video games and then deleted it (or wait, did I leave that in?).

Anyway, yeah. Ultimately Cerebus is an amazing work and its flaws are not in its craftsmanship, which even in the final issues was among the best in the field, but rather its intent. Too Human has flaws all over the place.

Yeah. I mean, I've said it before in this thread, but I like Denis. I've talked with him on a number of occasions, and he's been great. Really friendly. But he takes things too far, and doesn't know when to let go, which is ultimately damaging.

 

[artredis1980]

we are GAFamous

 

[POWERSPHERE]

What about banning people just for bumping old threads? HUH DENIS! THEY DO THAT ALL THE TIME!

But seriously... Wow... How much fucking weight do they place on the bullshit that goes on in here, this will only go to fuel the weight of e-peens.

And there's definitely not enough gifs going on up in hurr.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

I'm not saying anything new here.. but...

If NeoGAF is just a bunch of whiny complainers like Denis seems to think, why does he give us so much attention? He bitches that we have no way of assessing the high quality of the game, but the only thing we have to go on is his word that it isn't, in fact, a terrible mess of a game.

I liken it to any guilty pleasure. Gaf, though with other minor, more constructive facets, is interactive gaming tabloid.

Folks can bitch about tabloid all the want, yet most of those who bitch still go up and read it (establishing the awareness needed to bitch in the first place). They cannot resist;. The difference here with this Dyack fellow is he's trying to potray an image of changing that because of this perceived disservice. The rest of us just embrace it because we realize that it exists now, and it's evolved exactly as it naturally had to, because of the exact form of interest that we want to garner from it. Rather than a interested good, it's an instinctive want.

Bitching about interests doesn't change instincts. If Dyack wants to revolve gaming forum, he essentially needs to shut his mouth and start his own gaming community. Words about ours aren't going to change shit.

 

[KefkaTaran]

I think he waited for the bullet points to be over. I'm sure they all had the details of this tirade in front of them and were going to let him air it out. You'll note that Garnett's rebuttal isn't specific to the last point, it's a straight up, "But dude, it's NeoGAF," which is probably what he wanted to say the whole time.

We didn't see the details of what Denis was going to talk about before we went on air. We knew he wanted to discuss something and were told that his points touched on the GAF 'Stand and be counted' thread and the negative previews. And as others have suggested, I think Andrew and I were really just trying to fully process Denis's ideas. I put in a couple points where I felt I could, but...

 

[Lifeonmars?]

So I got to around an hour forty...

What's going on?

 

[Rummy Bunnz]

And to be fair to Dave Sim, he had years and years of brilliant comics writing and art before he was convinced of a feminist/communist conspiracy. Denis has not creatively even sniffed the level of depth and sophistcation Sim had before losing it.

Man, there isn't even anything in that last 100 issues as embarrassing as that Too Human opening. Not even the 30 issues of bible analysis with Woody Allen. Or "men come from semen, women come from eggs" (though that may be post-300). I'll take all that raging against the female void over Nietzsche quotes and bear warriors any day.

Or maybe not. The bear warriors may be funnier than anything post-186.

 

[OniShiro]

I Think Denis is probably right but also think that he's taking things too seriously, and he's hurting himself with comments like that.

 

[alistairw]

And there's definitely not enough gifs going on up in hurr.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Oh snap! I just got to the Dyack part.

"

Spoiler

Denis is spreading peace.

"

:lol :lol