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Denis Dyack in 1up yours. NeoGAF is "hurting society," justifies having it shut down
- Thread starter Rlan
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Oh god, this is infuriating -- conflating evaluative previews with reviews, apparently assuming that it's the press' job to produce marketing material from our hands-on experiences with near final software? You know damn well that Dennis doesn't mind opinionated previews provided the opinions that they express are positive.
apropos of shane's kotaku-bashing: the essential difference between kotaku and ziff's take on opinionated reporting is that kotaku's gawkeresque scurrility is entertaining. and i doubt those folks would let denis dyack bludgeon them into a complicit silence
oh god we've got a 'management guru,' repeat, a 'management guru'
oh god we've got a 'management guru,' repeat, a 'management guru'
MightyHedgehog
Member
No, not that I know of. But I'm pretty sure that they haven't bombed, either. I was just saying that I don't think the game will sell poorly because of all the forum and 'net drama surrounding it. It does seem solid though lacking the kind of polish and aesthetic most expect from a big next-gen release.stuburns said:
I'm not expecting a miracle build at the time they press discs, but I also think a lot of negativity around the game has little to actually do with the game, at least on GAF. This recent thing is all about Dyack.
WTF? I several times defended Dyack against the mouthbreathing also-rans who used to shit up eternal darkness / MGS:TS threads with "LOL dyack is fat."
I didn't do it because I thought he had thin skin. I did it because they were being stupid.
I guess I was wrong about his sensitivity levels. Not that it would change what I did, what I do, or whether or not I like his game.
EDIT: :lol thats rich. He has grounds to shut it down? If the Jeff Bell incident didn't do it nothing will. If you don't like he discourse, participate and "be the change you want to see in the world" (nice and philosophical just like you like it), or don't come and watch.
I don't like Rush Limbaugh, and its why I don't listen
I didn't do it because I thought he had thin skin. I did it because they were being stupid.
I guess I was wrong about his sensitivity levels. Not that it would change what I did, what I do, or whether or not I like his game.
EDIT: :lol thats rich. He has grounds to shut it down? If the Jeff Bell incident didn't do it nothing will. If you don't like he discourse, participate and "be the change you want to see in the world" (nice and philosophical just like you like it), or don't come and watch.
I don't like Rush Limbaugh, and its why I don't listen
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Imagine villifying the gaming community like Jack Thompson does... and then trying to sell them a game.
I'm pretty shocked that someone would think this was a good idea.
It reminds me of the time the Cristal executive bemoaned all the rappers drinking it and got himself a boycott from Jay-Z and co.
I'm pretty shocked that someone would think this was a good idea.
It reminds me of the time the Cristal executive bemoaned all the rappers drinking it and got himself a boycott from Jay-Z and co.
MightyHedgehog said:
I'm betting on the Mass Effect problem.
Look at the shelves at your local EB - the game sold tons, but tons of them ended up there. Check the dates on the tags on the back...they're probably from a month or so after the game came out. So many people bought it expecting an action game and were really disappointed. The same thing is going to happen with Too Human, if they can get people to pick it up in the first place.
Dennis Dyack said:
Ignoring all the other bizarre stuff he says, this is the one aspect that I gotta agree with Denis on. Folks troll games they haven't played all the time, and that's fine I suppose, except that GAF is awfully inconsistent when it comes to banning folks for it. A lot of the time no one will bat an eye if you slam a game that GAF has universally decided it hates (lets say Horsez for example, or Lair) but God help you if you decide to heavily troll some game that GAF has decided it likes.
I don't think GAF is entirely to blame here though, since there are only so many moderators and it is *cough* sort of funny to see crappy games get trolled, but at the same time I could see how the inconsistency could be annoying if your (likely quite decent game) is on the receiving end of unabashed trolling.
BobJustBob
Member
GAF: for or against?
junkwaffle
In Front and Drawing Away
I'm sorry I missed his locked thread, but Mr. Dyack seems to have a weird relationship with gaf.
Denis isn't thick-skinned, even though he says he is. The GIF's and negative feedback touched a nerve (hence going through the so called skin) and he felt something wrong, like it wasn't fair that they could do this and presumably damage his company, reputation, and game in such an embarrassing way. I'm guessing it's because he's seeing the fact that industry developers, publishers, and journalists also visit the site and probably also see the same material.
So he went on 1UP to pretty much threat this place based on the fact that his game wasn't received in a positive light and he wanted to rectify it in some way. My guess is that he likes going here and respects why everyone else goes here and probably that's why it hurts for him the most.
Personally, as a developer, I want to make sure my work can't get scrutinized and made fun of because GAF typically is right-on with obvious critical observations as gamers. I hold my work up to the GAF standard, as stupid as that may sound. I ask myself, "Would GAF have a chance to make fun of this?" which pretty much means "Does this have any obvious flaws that could pointed be out?"
^^ JunkWaffle: You are the best.
So he went on 1UP to pretty much threat this place based on the fact that his game wasn't received in a positive light and he wanted to rectify it in some way. My guess is that he likes going here and respects why everyone else goes here and probably that's why it hurts for him the most.
Personally, as a developer, I want to make sure my work can't get scrutinized and made fun of because GAF typically is right-on with obvious critical observations as gamers. I hold my work up to the GAF standard, as stupid as that may sound. I ask myself, "Would GAF have a chance to make fun of this?" which pretty much means "Does this have any obvious flaws that could pointed be out?"
^^ JunkWaffle: You are the best.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
so, was Dyack banned?
Tiktaalik said:
Or maybe it's just "Given what I see, this looks like total crap."
If someone had shown me Classic British Motor Racing before it came out, I would've said "hey, this looks like crap."
Just because Too Human had more time and money go into it doesn't mean that, at the time when most of the shitting-upon took place (before Dyack fanned the flames) the game looked pretty solidly like crap.
vas_a_morir
Banned
~Devil Trigger~ said:
No. But God help him if he posts a pic using imageshack.
Ok, so as I'm listening to this a couple of things come to mind. I'm not sure if they've been mentioned before but here are 2 points on the first half of his speech.
1. About outsourcing story, or having writers full time: What was the first thing we found out about Too Human as we see it now for the xbox360? That it uses(used lol) the UE3 engine. Outsourced. What gives him the right to talk about what other developers are doing when he himself attempted to outsource one, if not the most important, part of the game? I can't believe nobody brought that up. Is "story" somehow a thing that cannot be outsourced and the tech is? Who makes the rules, Denis? Fucking ridiculous.
2. GAF is not a single voice. Throughout this speech he's talking about people on gaf said this and they did that. You can't hold gaf accountable anymore than you can any other public forum. This would be equivalent to me going on a LA Laker forum to find a fan who thinks the management or some players should be shot and saying "hey look at this, sports fans are evil! they should be all held accountable! damn them for doing this. Where's the social responsibility!"
1. About outsourcing story, or having writers full time: What was the first thing we found out about Too Human as we see it now for the xbox360? That it uses(used lol) the UE3 engine. Outsourced. What gives him the right to talk about what other developers are doing when he himself attempted to outsource one, if not the most important, part of the game? I can't believe nobody brought that up. Is "story" somehow a thing that cannot be outsourced and the tech is? Who makes the rules, Denis? Fucking ridiculous.
2. GAF is not a single voice. Throughout this speech he's talking about people on gaf said this and they did that. You can't hold gaf accountable anymore than you can any other public forum. This would be equivalent to me going on a LA Laker forum to find a fan who thinks the management or some players should be shot and saying "hey look at this, sports fans are evil! they should be all held accountable! damn them for doing this. Where's the social responsibility!"
Tiktaalik said:
Who did though? Outside of the previews, who I think are playing near-retail code. The gaffers are, for the most part, only slagging off what we've seen, cutscenes and things.
The podcast was a frustrating listen, because I constantly wanted to comment on his diatribe, or hoped someone would. It was painful to hear everyone just sitting back being nodding dogs. Outside of Garnett, who fought the good fight a little.
denis is still talking about business ethics. remember that line in epic's counterclaim where they mention that sk staff downloaded tons of stuff from their knowledge database right before filing that lawsuit? remember the line in sk's claim that basically says that they're still using ue3 code, but they're totally going to stop, so they shouldn't have to pay for it? yeah. business ethics
correct me if i'm wrong on the details
correct me if i'm wrong on the details
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Kittonwy said:I r hurtin society? Onoz.
Wasn't Denis talking about you in the podcast?! :lol
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I agree that the internet community has no way of assessing these games... but since when did the actual thoughts of randoms on the internet actually amount to real game reporting?Tiktaalik said:
Revolutionary
Member
junkwaffle said:
Iaido Sword
Banned
Just to say, I'm not quoting you but as well as other people who said what you said, and I want to say that it is pretty crock to say that "blah blah game is a preview build". Maybe it works if the game was previewed for at least half a year before the release date, but it's coming in August. The "preview" code is going to barely change if anything.Cmagus said:
This is why people should take a closer look at the really good and enthusiastic developers like Kojima Productions and Blizzard.
Blizzard is safe because they practically have unlimited time. They let out and REALLY push early previews of the game and are for certain going to fix any problem before it comes out. Too Human has a release date and a budget model, and major changes, like the cutscene, which apparently hasn't change for two entire years, will not change. The repetitiveness of Too Human will not change. The barren levels that Garnett spoke of will not be filled with thousands of destructible objects. Those will not change because those kinds of changes need a lot of time and money.
Now onto Kojima Productions. People should get a hold on the documentaries of MGS4. It is an absolutely great display of how a game is made and what happens in the office and studio of one of the greatest games. I really hope this is mind blowing for you.
February 28th, MGS4 Master copy was complete.
I'm not saying that it gone gold at that time, but it sure look like it did in the documentaries. Kojima was arguing menacingly at his team to perform better rather than cut corners. The entire team was sweating balls to get in as many improvements as possible before the deadline. It certainly wasn't an atmosphere where one could say, "Oh, there's a problem here" and change it a month before the release date. There is no changing it without spending loads of money for one thing.
If a game like MGS4 had a deadline for improvements three months before the release date, I can bet you that previews of Too Human can be trustworthy to being very damn close to being the final product.
Dyack makes a good point but doesn't put it in practice. Blizzard's putting it in practice. Dyack is just making an excuse to try and get a good wrap and he's banging on both gaming journalists and gaming forum enthusiasts for his irresponsibility as a project lead.
DeformedOnion
Neo Member
You missed that memo? random internet users are the authoritative source for game journalism now, just ask anyone.BocoDragon said:
I would agree, though I know it was meant ironically. It seems for industry people, there's either immediate love or immediate hate with no middle ground and no changing of the group think later on. Even if you say something honest and true, if the group think doesn't like it, you're labeled villain and that's it forever.Mario said:
So... What is Dyack's opinion on the way things should be run here? He talked a lot about how the moderators are contributing to the eventual decay of civilized society, but he never offered any opinion on how he felt it should be reformed.
Personally, I like GAF the way it is. The moderators are opinionated and part of the community and can be lenient or harsh when dishing out punishments, like human beings. I wouldn't want that aspect to change because I feel that is something that makes these forums really stand out from the rest.
Personally, I like GAF the way it is. The moderators are opinionated and part of the community and can be lenient or harsh when dishing out punishments, like human beings. I wouldn't want that aspect to change because I feel that is something that makes these forums really stand out from the rest.
After listening to the full segment, I think Dyack was right on a lot of points and wrong on others(GAF hurting society part was laughable though). It's kind of hard to not sympathize with the guy when SK invested so much time into the game only to have people who haven't played it make some pretty harsh remarks not only about the game-but about Dyack as a person. It's fucked up when you think about it. Also, because he's so far in the shitter with this place because of previous threads and what not, I don't see how there could be any possible good outcome from this.
Drinky Crow
Banned
just change dyack's tag to "Web 2.0wn3d"
fatigues_gasolini
Member
Denis seems to complain about people not hving access to his game and making snap judgments, but to us regular folk, the only access we have is what is shown to us, and if that is a guy batting a yarn ball away that's what we are going to go with. I base all my assumptions on what Ive seen. The animations look like shit too me, and with that other parts look bad to me. Its not bias, its years of playing video games and seeing what I think looks good.
PS Ive been drinking alot.
PS Ive been drinking alot.
FartOfWar said:
This is what I mean about Denis being like that vaguely weird guy you know who just runs with his odd ideas. He's intensely fallible, and completely transparent in his motivations - in other words, entirely unsuited to doing any kind of public talking without being heavily monitored by his friends/PR, who can whisper 'Dude...shut up...' when he just goes too far.
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