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Denis Dyack in 1up yours. NeoGAF is "hurting society," justifies having it shut down
- Thread starter Rlan
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BenjaminBirdie said:This is really a creative meltdown of Cerebus proportions.
The four people who get this reference will understand what I'm saying.
:lol :lol
It's worse, really, because Dave Sim didn't need help getting attention for his book at that point. He was so established, and didn't have to deal with a publisher, he essentially created a situation in which he could meltdown with little more punishment than Comics Journal having a good wag.
Denis, on the other hand, needs the good will of journalists, publishers, and most importantly, gamers -- many of which are members of forums just like this one (or worse).
You know I haven't been a fan of TH since that first trailer, but I've never attacked Denis personally, because it's just ridiculous to make personal attacks against someone who's never done me any harm. Beyond that, other than hybperbole and bad judgement, it's not like he's guilty of anything.
But now he's suggesting shutting down a public forum because they said bad things about his game. Sure, he's got a long involved chain of reasoning, but seriously, does anyone think that came before he got his feelings repeatedly hurt on GAF? It reeks of a pasted together theory to support his screaming inner child.
Beyond the utter delusion of the idea that he has any power to shut down GAF, legal or otherwise, the answer to bad speech (which he contends) is more speech, not less speech.
Ya know, I never had anything personal against Denis. Until now.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
Puncture said:
MEATCUBE?
Anyways, I refuse to listen to 1UY, so I'm just going to assume that the article posted gloriously abused some of Dyack's quotes in order to smear him as a looney and make GAF look better.
vagabondarts
Member
I still really want to play the game.
I just hate pretentious "philosophers" masquerading as misunderstood game developers.
I just hate pretentious "philosophers" masquerading as misunderstood game developers.
lybertyboy
Thinks the Evil Empire is just misunderstood.
Struct09 said:
But of course. Dyack makes an appearance there as well.
I'm not saying anything new here.. but...
If NeoGAF is just a bunch of whiny complainers like Denis seems to think, why does he give us so much attention? He bitches that we have no way of assessing the high quality of the game, but the only thing we have to go on is his word that it isn't, in fact, a terrible mess of a game.
We've been teased with Too Human for longer than GAF has existed! I don't get it. I'm sure that in the years and years and years that Too Human has been in development Denis has become very familiar with it, he thinks it's great, he probably knows lots of cool stuff about its inner workings, and knows that the game has lots of content that hasn't been revealed yet. Yet he's acting like we ALSO know all this stuff. We've been burned like this many times before, and Silicon Knights doesn't have the legacy for us to trust him on faith alone.
A gaffer sees:
- long, tortured development
- pushed from a sony console to a nintendo console to a microsoft console
- bad e3 showing
- trailers which don't show much of the core of the game
- a studio which has made good stuff and bad stuff
and:
- Dyack praising his own game.
It's like if you were buying a car, and the paint was chipped, there were oil stains under it, the tires were a little flat and black smoke came out when you started it. Yeah, maybe it just needs a paint job and $500 in repairs and it'd be an amazing sports car. But maybe it's just a shitty car. We need to be convinced, Denis, and regardless of whether or not you've done a good job developing the game, you've done a very bad job convincing us. And since that's all we have to go on, we're going to rag on your game.
If NeoGAF is just a bunch of whiny complainers like Denis seems to think, why does he give us so much attention? He bitches that we have no way of assessing the high quality of the game, but the only thing we have to go on is his word that it isn't, in fact, a terrible mess of a game.
We've been teased with Too Human for longer than GAF has existed! I don't get it. I'm sure that in the years and years and years that Too Human has been in development Denis has become very familiar with it, he thinks it's great, he probably knows lots of cool stuff about its inner workings, and knows that the game has lots of content that hasn't been revealed yet. Yet he's acting like we ALSO know all this stuff. We've been burned like this many times before, and Silicon Knights doesn't have the legacy for us to trust him on faith alone.
A gaffer sees:
- long, tortured development
- pushed from a sony console to a nintendo console to a microsoft console
- bad e3 showing
- trailers which don't show much of the core of the game
- a studio which has made good stuff and bad stuff
and:
- Dyack praising his own game.
It's like if you were buying a car, and the paint was chipped, there were oil stains under it, the tires were a little flat and black smoke came out when you started it. Yeah, maybe it just needs a paint job and $500 in repairs and it'd be an amazing sports car. But maybe it's just a shitty car. We need to be convinced, Denis, and regardless of whether or not you've done a good job developing the game, you've done a very bad job convincing us. And since that's all we have to go on, we're going to rag on your game.
Denis has a point about how people don't realize the power a forum like this can have. The fact that guys all over the industry even read this forum and have registered accounts, tells something GAF's impact on the industry.
There is a good reason why some people choose to have ethics even when they are posting on forums. It's just sad other people can't fathom why.
This is no longer about Too Human. I think Dyack has showed time and again that he isn't afraid of what people might think about the game based on his thoughts on the industry. And I personally think it's a refreshing approach. I've been looking forward to play TH for a long time, but regardless of all that, I think we need more people like Denis Dyack.
There is a good reason why some people choose to have ethics even when they are posting on forums. It's just sad other people can't fathom why.
This is no longer about Too Human. I think Dyack has showed time and again that he isn't afraid of what people might think about the game based on his thoughts on the industry. And I personally think it's a refreshing approach. I've been looking forward to play TH for a long time, but regardless of all that, I think we need more people like Denis Dyack.
Bearillusion
Banned
"That's no space station.......it's NEOGAF!!!!!!!!!!!!"
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Gazunta said:Well done, man. Well done
It's like the exact same thing. He's got this sort of core idea I agree with. In Dave Sim's case, it was Emotion v. Reason. Which makes total sense. Modern society is completely overruled by the How People Feel, etc, blah blah blah. But then he goes and says that it's broken down as Female versus Male and, well, then he just goes completely insane, slowly, issue by issue, right before your eyes.
In this instance, Denis has some core ideas I agree with. There are flaws in the preview process, and no other medium judges any creative act at such early stages in the process. So that's valid. But now he's taken that core idea and spun it into this tirade against NeoGAF and forums and tied it into Economic theory. It's like the exact same kind of meltdown.
But, you know, at the end of the day, Cerebus is a pretty fucking amazing comic book. We'll have to see what happens with Too Human. But Sim was completely ostracized from the comic book industry, you can't find more than twelve people on Earth who read comics who will actually stand up and say they've read Cerebus and can say "Hey, you know, Dave Sim is bonkers but this comic is still good."
(Wow, a lot of people here have read Cerebus! GO GAF!)
this is somewhat depressing :lol
everyone knows Dyack has spent a decade+ trying to get this game out, but either a.) the pressure's gotten to him or b.) the game is truly terrible and he's trying to someway find a way to salvage it's place in history.
there's really no defense to this, because he's screwing things up for himself and all the employees of his company. what's he gonna do when the next game SK works on gets some bad press? which console is going to want his child-like "my toy is better than yours" antics associated with their brand?
you stop this now, sir.
go make a good game, stop trying to make a witty post for the archives.
everyone knows Dyack has spent a decade+ trying to get this game out, but either a.) the pressure's gotten to him or b.) the game is truly terrible and he's trying to someway find a way to salvage it's place in history.
there's really no defense to this, because he's screwing things up for himself and all the employees of his company. what's he gonna do when the next game SK works on gets some bad press? which console is going to want his child-like "my toy is better than yours" antics associated with their brand?
you stop this now, sir.
go make a good game, stop trying to make a witty post for the archives.
Crumpet Trumpet
Banned
It's around E3 time too!just tray said:1up
This dudes hatred for Gaf has turned into his personal religion.The jihadist wing of Silicon Knights will be launching D.O.S. attacks any time now. We need a Gaf Terror alert system
THREAT LEVEL: MIDNIGHT
Agent Micheal Scarn is on the case
I don't understand. So if/when too human flops it's going to be GAF's fault? or will it be Epic's? or how about that E3 showing? Mark MacD? Denis you get to make games for a living dude. Get the fuck out with your bitching and moaning and go make a better game. This really feels like pre-emptive damage control.
dollartaco
Member
What's this about companies and GAF getting shut down? Who gives a shit about GAF?
rollingstart
Banned
I am curious about weather Dyack is against previews or not now, because he was commending 1up for writing a un-bias review of Too Human, but I assume that is only because he liked that the preview was fairly positive with his game. I seem to remember him hating previews in 2006 when many of them said the early build of his game at E3 was bad. I guess he didn't have the thick skin or ability to accept when people say he is wrong back then. Am I to assume that Dyack will start liking gaming forums again in 2 years then? I think that Gaming coverage on television is rising up with daily episodes of X-Play and Gametrailers TV, maybe that can be the new thing to rail against when they say something negative about the next project.
I am still eager with frothing demand for the Too Human demo. My opinion of that game is less than it was 2 years ago, but if it really is good, then so be it. The actions of a slightly paranoid figure head won't cause me to like a good game when I play one.
And Dyack, I suggest playing your own game again (because it is apparently so awesome) to notice the quote from the intro:
Seems like you should have figured out what that meant before you started up this whole mess. Semper Fi, right?
I am still eager with frothing demand for the Too Human demo. My opinion of that game is less than it was 2 years ago, but if it really is good, then so be it. The actions of a slightly paranoid figure head won't cause me to like a good game when I play one.
And Dyack, I suggest playing your own game again (because it is apparently so awesome) to notice the quote from the intro:
Seems like you should have figured out what that meant before you started up this whole mess. Semper Fi, right?
juicyfruitas
Member
Good pre-show. Garnett sums up Denis' rants most eloquently
Garnett Lee said:
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
~Kinggi~ said:
I find it hard to believe that it wasn't. I couldn't write all this out in a month.
Drinky Crow
Banned
why did i listen to this
why
his ideas unto themselves are credible, even if he cants them as dogma; however, getting from corporate ethics to STAND AND BE COUNTED is a an epistemological rope bridge even a libertarian wouldn't cross
why
his ideas unto themselves are credible, even if he cants them as dogma; however, getting from corporate ethics to STAND AND BE COUNTED is a an epistemological rope bridge even a libertarian wouldn't cross
The dude is insane he should stop reading boards in the first place if they piss him of so much.
1-I don't think a forum like neogaf has that much impact on the industry, maybe on individuals within the industry who take comments from forums too seriously/at heart.
2-It's as if he says we are a huge hivemind. No. When you read a thread, there are significant posts and "noise", that noise can be fun, boring, offensive but it's still only noise
3-Dude stop being a drama queen because the nerds are dissing you in the back of the class room, do your job, live your life and let the games do the talk. They've been better at this than you.
1-I don't think a forum like neogaf has that much impact on the industry, maybe on individuals within the industry who take comments from forums too seriously/at heart.
2-It's as if he says we are a huge hivemind. No. When you read a thread, there are significant posts and "noise", that noise can be fun, boring, offensive but it's still only noise
3-Dude stop being a drama queen because the nerds are dissing you in the back of the class room, do your job, live your life and let the games do the talk. They've been better at this than you.
No, it's about:Endow said:
-GAF changing society
-Books explaining how the Internet and message boards influence things
-Jeff Bell "exposed" by mods
-Tags
-Business ethics
-Kittonwy getting invited to a party
-Priests, clocks, and prayer, society not taking religion as seriously but still using time, and how it relates to NeoGAF moving forward
-A bunch of other pretentious things
All thanks to Mr. Dyack.
JasonUresti
Member
I'd agree, except that Denis seems unable to approach issues in a detached manner. More simply, he gets too emotional, lets his feelings get hurt too easily, to be able to offer criticism and ideas in a coherent fashion. Denis too often comes across as angry and whiny, refers to his own work far too much when making his points. All this makes it difficult to take his points as seriously as one should, as it sounds more like a bitter man trying to defend himself and attack critics and criticisms of his games, rather than offering advice for improving the way games and the games industry work.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Dyack, bow out as gracefully and humbly as possible and then hire a community rep who isn't so close to the project nor as personally invested that they can't simply roll with the punches.
vas_a_morir
Banned
We should change the "believe" under the neogaf logo to "hurts society"
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Wow, this is like...
"Because of the 'Internet Is Serious Business' gif, we should treat it like an actual business, and hold it accountable."
*shakes head rigorously*
*blllrrrrrrr*
"Because of the 'Internet Is Serious Business' gif, we should treat it like an actual business, and hold it accountable."
*shakes head rigorously*
*blllrrrrrrr*
Azelover
Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
speedpop said:
The Wii is proof the market will decide for itself, even then we're entitled to our opinions.
It's ridiculous and sad to suggest that we're not as human beings entitled to give our impressions and voice our opinions, the previews you're putting out there are up for the judging, and previews are meant to give people impressions of the product in various levels which they're free to express. If there's damage then that should be dealt with, sure there are more serious cases like the one where the girl killed herself, but you're comparing that to a freaking game developer which was already a public figure to begin with being criticized in a message board, that's crazy. We're entitled to have our opinions expressed on a freaking product which will be up for sale, and will or will not be purchased based on previewing on various levels.
Free thinking, not always suitable to Dyack's ego, that's what we're entitled to and that's what bothers him, therefore he needs to bring a whole bunch of topics down with him so he can look like he has a "case", what a clown.
Endow said:
Here's the thing though... NeoGAF is NeoGAF because it is NeoGAF. If we all became self-correcting and overly concerned about not hurting feelings, we'd end up as castrated as the gaming media.
People read NeoGAF because we are honest... brutally so. You put one Enter the Matrix screen out where a car has square tires, we tell you your game looks like shit from day one. We don't go the IGN/1up/Gamespot route and write endless, pointless hopeful previews that withhold judgment and essentially parrot PR. We call it like we see it. THAT is why the industry reads NeoGAF. . . Just the same, if a game looked shitty & improves, we'll admit it and will become the best salesmen for a game you could possibly imagine. We are passionate about games, either way. People, including the industry, respond to that.
We can't and shouldn't try to change what we are. We are valuable as we are. Let other websites try to live up to Dyack's idealism. Let us be us.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
GhaleonQ said:
Like I said. His core idea is spot on. But ascribing it to gender is ludicrous.
_leech_ said:
Seriously.
Just watched the pre-show vid on 1UP Yours and I have to say that Garnett is quickly becoming one of my favorite people in the gaming industry. He doesn't beat around the bush and he says exactly what he means.
As for Denis, why would you start this shitstorm in the first place? You ask us what we think with little or no info to go on....and yet you come back and berate us for giving you an answer.
A better time for his thread would have been after we had a demo to work off of.
I'm still stupified. Seriously. He is fighting a losing battle.
Okay I just read through most of this thread. The question that keeps coming up in my mind is "why do we even give Denis any attention?".
He made Eternal Darkness which was the same stage 13 times over with a different character, different setting and a pretentious story.
He then took a classic like MGS, promissed the world with it over and over at the IGN boards and instead delivered something out of a shitty John Woo movie with easy gameplay.
Finally, after 10 years in the making, Too Human is finally set to release and instead of having some masterpiece, we get a normal length game that's split into three short 10 hours games (and called a trilogy) and according to the early reviews, its as mediocre as his past game.
So GAF, really, why are we even giving him the time of the day? It's not like we ever pay attention to all those devs that create other bland games over and over.
He made Eternal Darkness which was the same stage 13 times over with a different character, different setting and a pretentious story.
He then took a classic like MGS, promissed the world with it over and over at the IGN boards and instead delivered something out of a shitty John Woo movie with easy gameplay.
Finally, after 10 years in the making, Too Human is finally set to release and instead of having some masterpiece, we get a normal length game that's split into three short 10 hours games (and called a trilogy) and according to the early reviews, its as mediocre as his past game.
So GAF, really, why are we even giving him the time of the day? It's not like we ever pay attention to all those devs that create other bland games over and over.
KefkaTaran
Member
Son of Godzilla said:
Did the best I could trying to explain a long and fairly complex argument in a short news piece. But, then, you refuse to listen to 1UY, so I probably am wasting my time.
I agree, I think Garnett is pretty switched on indeed, but have you heard the podcast? He does calls Dyack on the Bell thing, but mostly he sits back with everyone else. I think that was lame. They should have called him on virtually everything he said. It's all mostly bollocks.NH Apache said:
Iaido Sword
Banned
Wtf wtf wtf! :lol :lol :lolHunahan said:
BobTheFork
Member
He's spent a shit load of time on this project and has in that time blamed several different sources for the apparent problems and delays. This really could just be a mountain of frustration he's unloading.
Jesus Carbomb
From Water into Guinness
I'm listening to this and I'm sincerely concerned about this guys mental well-being. Oh.My.God
VeritasVierge
Member
I am in awe. I thought this was some kind of joke post. Excuse me while I remove my jaw from the floor. Some people really do need to let go (this coming from someone who can seriously hold a grudge).
OnWarmerMusic
Member
I applaud Garnett for being the only one of the group to even attempt to call Dyack out during the show.
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