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[Panajev2001a]

I'm betting Epic's lawyers are overjoyed reading/hearing this stuff.

I think I hear Champagne being poured and bottles being opened... :lol.

 

[camineet]

GAF /NeoGAF, despite some issues, is the best damn videogame forum on the interwebs.
I've been lurking and/or posting for 8+ years, since just before PS2 was released in Japan.

I've never seen any forum/board or usenet newsgroup last the way GAF has. Everything else has died or changed too much. GAF has remained the most constant, consistant force in gaming message boards that I know of. There are some things about GAF I disagree with, but nothing that makes me not want to read & post.

fuck this bullshit.

Denis Dyack is full of it, and full of himself. I would rather read GAF the rest of my life than play any game he has made. I'd rather be on GAF, get banned once in awhile, come back, enjoy GAF again, than play anything by DD.

 

[just tray]

Nintendo must be praying to whatever Gods that they believe in saying

"Thank God DD didn't go through his mid life crisis while making Eternal Darkness or Twin Snakes."

 

[Flo_Evans]

I actually want that book on ethical management more than I want Too Human.

 

[gofreak]

I'm still listening through all this, but my first impression is that Dyack seems to be half-way through a thesis on this, and that if he has spent as much time on his game as he does pondering this stuff, I'm certain Too Human has nothing to worry about.

My second thought is that I hope to God on the part of the 1up crew there was a fair bit of 'nodding and smiling' going on.

Third, I've no doubt there was a lot of cringing going on, on the part of the PR person there. And for those wondering why Microsoft 'lets' him do this, he is not a Microsoft employee. They can't really gag him. Although I wonder if the PR person there was 'provided' by MS or was SK's own.

Fourth, and bearing in mind I haven't listened through the whole thing yet, I wouldn't put it past Denis doing anything at this stage, perhaps including investigating legal avenues against GAF. If I was advising GAF, I'm not a lawyer, but if I was, I'd probably advise GAF to ban all discussion of anything relating to SK. Denis shouldn't be displeased if he's so unhappy with how GAF operates.

 

[Iaido Sword]

So after hearing about the Star Wars kid...I thought hey, why not look it up myself because I was a bit curious to see if what Dy said was true. Kinda. I never knew the origins so I took a jonder of looking it up. I already posted it up on the 1UP boards but I'll post it here too. Interesting read really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_wars_kid
"On November 4, 2002 the boy made a video of himself swinging a golf ball retriever around as a weapon. The video was filmed at the studio of his high school, and the tape was left forgotten in a basement. The original owner of the videotape discovered his recorded acts and immediately shared it with some friends. Thinking that it would be a funny prank, they encoded it to a WMV file and shared it using the Kazaa peer-to-peer file sharing network.
Within two weeks, the file was downloaded several million times. An adapted version of the video was created, adding Star Wars music, texts, and lightsaber lights and sounds to his golf ball retriever.

As of 27 November 2006 it has been estimated by The Viral Factory that the videos had been viewed over 900 million times, making it the most popular "viral video" on the Internet."

In July 2003, his family filed a CA$250,000 lawsuit against the families of four of his schoolmates. The lawsuit stated, in part, that he "had to endure, and still endures today, harassment and derision from his high-school mates and the public at large." and, he "will be under psychiatric care for an indefinite amount of time."[2] Legal proceedings against one family were quickly dropped.[3] The lawsuit had been scheduled to begin trial on April 10, 2006; but on April 7, the boy and his parents reached an out-of-court settlement with the defendants.[4] Previous court proceedings had included discussions about whether the defendants had liability insurance. In 2006 the boy finally came to terms with his classmates and received CA$351,000 in a lawsuit between three of the four classmates. (Associated Sun Press).

So basically, he was like any other douche bag suer looking for money and most likely lying out of his ass to get it.

God... I hate those people. If he still endures mental stress from shit long time ago, he hasn't grown up and should be in diapers.

 

[besada]

I haven't listened to all of it yet. However I have to say this. I find it extremely funny that in his thread he desperately tries to rally people together to defend his game. Not only that but to justify his own PR for it. Then he turns around and friggin well bites them on the ass moreorless. He's not just complaining about ''negative gaf'' this is everyone, we're all in the same pool.

What I found interesting is that he asked for people "for" Too Human. Guess what? Those people are judging the game on just as little evidence as the ones saying against. If his complaint is people making judgements without playing the game, then people positive about the game are exactly as guilty of prejudging as the ones who don't like it.

Same thing with the previews. He was just fine with previewers who liked the game based on incomplete code, but was outraged that people would draw negative opinions based on incomplete code.

 

[duckroll]

Okay, I finished listening to the damn thing. Yeah, that was weird. Denis should seriously stop thinking too hard about GAF and think more about the demo. Put up the demo, or shut up.

 

[monchi-kun]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qOcRsW78WnU

seem's like a very appropriate song

"All the kids they hold a grudge their minds all logged on to the net"

man Local H was awesome!!!

 

[laceystorm]

i think dennis comes across as someone with humility (he apologizes for his mistakes and knows that he doesn't have all the answers) but at the same time he is looking out for the best interests of everyone (he points out the negative affects that an un-moderated public medium such as a forum can have on individuals, companies, and society as a whole, in the hope that that negative situation change).

i hope everybody here actually listened to the podcast and can make their own judgement...and aren't judging based on what someone said it's about...or what they imagine it's about.

http://download.gamevideos.com/Podcasts/070308.mp3

 

[Miniboss1232]

Most of what he's saying is right though.

I don't think there can be any other outcome than an implosion as long as the forum is going in the direction it is now (Which is somewhat sanctioned by the mods). And I think we will see less and less people from the industry around here.

Have fun while it lasts.

Maybe just 1 less person.

If we're lucky.

 

[CharminUltra]

Am I the only one who was going to give Too Human a honest chance before this whole mess started? Heck, I even (sort of) voted for on his damn thread.

Well, I just bought Diablo, Diablo II, LoD, TQ + expansion and will not be wasting money on this clown's games

 

[Necroscope]

Hey Dennis, you are sad. You make shitty games. Your game trailers are not enticing at all. Your shitty documentary about game design is sad because you have no game to back up what you preach. Why dont you shut up and made a great game then spew us with your design theory. Good dev team does not afraid of gaf, gaf is a great place because its collective knowledge is scary. Good dev will spend time here to lurk and listen. You take what you need to know from this forum just like any other place on the internet. Stop making excuse for your shitty game. Love, fellow game designer.

 

[NH Apache]

What I found interesting is that he asked for people "for" Too Human. Guess what? Those people are judging the game on just as little evidence as the ones saying against. If his complaint is people making judgements without playing the game, then people positive about the game are exactly as guilty of prejudging as the ones who don't like it.

Same thing with the previews. He was just fine with previewers who liked the game based on incomplete code, but was outraged that people would draw negative opinions based on incomplete code.

Thats actually a really good point.

"How can you give that game a negative review/preview with incomplete code?"

Like you said, the reverse is true as well.

 

[vareon]

Nintendo must be praying to whatever Gods that they believe in saying

"Thank God DD didn't go through his mid life crisis while making Eternal Darkness or Twin Snakes."

Leave luck to heavens, indeed.

 

[Brak]

I'd love to hear what Mark McD has to say about all this.

 

[Nolan.]

What I found interesting is that he asked for people "for" Too Human. Guess what? Those people are judging the game on just as little evidence as the ones saying against. If his complaint is people making judgements without playing the game, then people positive about the game are exactly as guilty of prejudging as the ones who don't like it.

Same thing with the previews. He was just fine with previewers who liked the game based on incomplete code, but was outraged that people would draw negative opinions based on incomplete code.

Thats what of the things I meant by us being in the same pool.

 

[gofreak]

Same thing with the previews. He was just fine with previewers who liked the game based on incomplete code, but was outraged that people would draw negative opinions based on incomplete code.

True, and the 'eternally optimistic preview' has been a big problem. On the consumer side, I think it's fair to say we dislike previews that simply hold fire on a game, glossing over the negatives, before pouring them all out in a review.

If Denis does not like people describing their impressions, as is, of preview versions of games without constant qualification that the final game might turn out completely differently, then he shouldn't send out preview versions. He's complained a lot about the mechanics of previews in the industry, but this is one instance where he hasn't taken a stand and 'put up or shut up' by refusing to participate in the process.

 

[camineet]

Guess what Dyack, after the decade or decade and a half or whatever years that Too Human has been in the works, in some form or another, PEOPLE WILL THINK IT SUCKS.

Get used to it.

 

[besada]

Am I the only one who was going to give Too Human a honest chance before this whole mess started? H

I'd still give TH a chance, and I'm one of the many who lost hope that it would be much good awhile ago. Because Denis is not Too Human. There are more than 100 other developers involved in the game. More importantly, I try not to judge the art on the artist, otherwise I'd have to give up an awful lot of the things I like. Even the craziest, meanest, scumbag can generate sublime art.

The unfortunate thing, is that Denis is taking the rest of SK along with him on his ego trip.

 

[Tetsuo9]

I'd love to hear what Mark McD has to say about all this.

Hey guys! What's going on...in......

.........

:slowly backs out of thread:

:lol

 

[StuBurns]

Thats actually a really good point.

"How can you give that game a negative review/preview with incomplete code?"

Like you said, the reverse is true as well.

I hate this whole concept about previews without opinion. What does he want them to do? They are critics. If I want to know about classes and maps I can get that from elsewhere. I want the critics opinion on the game.

He can claim the preview code is not review code all he wants, but the game can't be a month from going gold, at the very most. There is going to be no massive turn around. And if someone has preview code and says this game is shit. It's still going to be shit in a month. If he says it's great, it'll be great in a month.

I don't know where this preview system has come from, but I find it completely pointless, I want to know about the development, how the game feels at the time they are shown. Maybe scoring previews is too far, but saying the 10 hours of gameplay were 'uneven at best' is far from too 'reviewish'. I want that kind of opinion in a preview.

 

[GrayFoxPL]

This is why I think America is on the wrong side of the planet.
Whenever good shit happens and GAF meltdowns I am long asleep.

I don't want to listen to the whole thing, but please tell me one thing:

How did he justify the hilariously shitty quality of TH intro cinematic?

Because that's what we were making fun of. Well, most of us.

 

[Rlan]

I hate this whole concept about previews without opinion. What does he want them to do? They are critics. If I want to know about classes and maps I can get that from elsewhere. I want the critics opinion on the game.

He can claim the preview code is not review code all he wants, but the game can't be a month from going gold, at the very most. There is going to be no massive turn around. And if someone has preview code and says this game is shit. It's still going to be shit in a month. If he says it's great, it'll be great in a month.

I don't know where this preview system has come from, but I find it completely pointless, I want to know about the development, how the game feels at the time they are shown. Maybe scoring previews is too far, but saying the 10 hours of gameplay were 'uneven at best' is far from too 'reviewish'. I want that kind of opinion in a preview.

A preview without opinion is a press release.

 

[Rlan]

This is why I think America is on the wrong side of the planet.
Whenever good shit happens and GAF meltdowns I am long asleep.

Live in Australia. Everything is announced at around 3AM for me

 

[timetokill]

Oh, Denis... Denis... Denis...

 

[StuBurns]

This is why I think America is on the wrong side of the planet.
Whenever good shit happens and GAF meltdowns I am long asleep.

I don't want to listen to the whole thing, but please tell me one thing:

How did he justify the hilariously shitty quality of TH intro cinematic?

Because that's what we were making fun of. Well, most of us.

preview code.

 

[NH Apache]

I hate this whole concept about previews without opinion. What does he want them to do? They are critics. If I want to know about classes and maps I can get that from elsewhere. I want the critics opinion on the game.

He can claim the preview code is not review code all he wants, but the game can't be a month from going gold, at the very most. There is going to be no massive turn around. And if someone has preview code and says this game is shit. It's still going to be shit in a month. If he says it's great, it'll be great in a month.

I don't know where this preview system has come from, but I find it completely pointless, I want to know about the development, how the game feels at the time they are shown. Maybe scoring previews is too far, but saying the 10 hours of gameplay were 'uneven at best' is far from too 'reviewish'. I want that kind of opinion in a preview.

I kind of agree with you here, but to play the flip side, you can not tell how good a movie is going to be from a trailer

Spoiler

except for The Dark Knight

.

Most of the time, a preview is one or two levels. An rpg is different of course.

Denis says, over and over again, that 1up was the only site that gave a nuetral preview to his game.

With a 10 hour preview (not really a preview, almost a playthru), I would expect an impression of the game, maybe not a scathing negative.

Spoiler

Don't kill me, I'm just playing the other side!

 

[noonche]

I actually thought Denis Dyack had some interesting (if very scatterbrained) things to say. Perhaps he should write an essay/article/thesis so that he can coagulate his thoughts better.

I'll probably still give Too Human a chance, the combat system and setting intrigues me.

 

[Cold-Steel]

I really think he needs to stop promoting his games. He honestly makes too many mistakes that reflect negatively on the studio he runs.

Get a change of PR in Silicon Knights stat.

My real beef comes from the fact that I own both Eternal Darkness, Twin Snakes and I'm looking forward to Too Human but the guy insists that people are not ALLOWED to have a negative opinion of his game so he insists on taking action similar to censorship?

Is he fucking retarded? I think he's a decent guy but he's fallen off the deep end this time.

 

[no angel]

you know, before he did this I kinda felt a bit sorry for dyack, and to a certain extent I still do.he has been treated a little harshly by some forum members and I truly believe there are people here that would slate too human no matter how well it turns out but this is Some serious playground shit.I'm still going to give th a shot but it will be despite dyack's mouthings not because of him.

That being said I do think he quality of this forum has degenerated in recent years.

 

[noonche]

I really think he needs to stop promoting his games. He honestly makes too many mistakes that reflect negatively on the studio he runs.

Get a change of PR in Silicon Knights stat.

My real beef comes from the fact that I own both Eternal Darkness, Twin Snakes and I'm looking forward to Too Human but the guy insists that people are not ALLOWED to have a negative opinion of his game so he insists on taking action similar to censorship?

Is he fucking retarded? I think he's a decent guy but he's fallen off the deep end this time.

I think part of the problem is that he is mixing his own opinions on how his game is being treated with some interesting (if not particularly original) ideas about anonymous communication. It's not clear where one ends and the other begins.

 

[StuBurns]

I kind of agree with you here, but to play the flip side, you can not tell how good a movie is going to be from a trailer

Spoiler

except for The Dark Knight

.

Most of the time, a preview is one or two levels. An rpg is different of course.

Denis says, over and over again, that 1up was the only site that gave a nuetral preview to his game.

With a 10 hour preview (not really a preview, almost a playthru), I would expect an impression of the game, maybe not a scathing negative.

Spoiler

Don't kill me, I'm just playing the other side!

That's cool, but an opinionated preview doesn't not give an opinion on the retail full game.
I can play a demo, and could 'review' the demo. Which is a preview of the whole game.

You can't say Too Human is shit based on preview code. But you can say the preview code build of Too Human is shit. If you see what I mean?

The Mark McD thing was the perfect example. 1up were reviewing the material shown at E3. So Mark had to review the demo. In his opinion the demo met the criteria for the 'terrible' rank. That's cool, his opinion matters, and that's what he thinks of that demo. But, that doesn't mean he thinks that about the final game. This is what Dyack didn't understand. reviewing a demo showing, is not reviewing the final game. A game can massively change, so can someone's opinion.

 

[iamblades]

He does have good points, but obviously his delivery of those points is...different...But there are 2 points that everyone seems to be ignoring in amongst all the personal insults.

1 GAF does matter, it is widely regarded as the place where industry and gamers mingle meet and call each other "Twat's" why do you think we have so many virals? :lol

2 It is a Mod led culture, whereby if you say something about one game its cool but in others it’s an issue. Which would lead to the impression that the biases of people (cause mods are people too) are the things which control opinion in this place.

I'm not saying there is some big conspiracy or anything, but you can see how it might look a little bad?

I love this place, Lurking here is like listening to my geeky college friends rip each other, but it’s got to be equal, it can’t be one rule for one game and change that rule for another.

1. Well the industry is retarded for thinking that way. Why should a web forum (which is just really an extension of you and your friends hanging around talking about games) have to be all serious just because people from the outside don't understand it? I've heard some ridiculously stupid shit from my friends about games, and someone could've overheard what they said and assumed it was true. Doesn't mean everyone should only talk about things that either can be 100% objectively proven though. If my friends ask me what I think about game x that is coming out, I should be free to say that I think it looks like shit if I think it does, no matter who might hear what I have to say and assume I have real knowledge about the game when in reality I just think it looks like shit. Now if someone was acting like they played it when they didn't, that is different. But trust me, if someone was shown to be giving false information like that, they would get one epic tag/ban/ridcule from the masses.

2. Goes to the first point, forums like this are supposed to be an informal setting, just as if you and some friends were sitting around bullshitting about games. It doesn't need to be 'managed' so it can provide some 'social good'. The mods are supposed to be a substitute for the 'if you make fun of my mom I'll kick your ass' aspect of real life. They aren't supposed to guide the discussion into some fully enlightened utopia where everyone is nice to each other and everyone respects everyone's opinions, nor are they supposed to be the final arbiters of truth and justice. I also fail to see how the mods 'lead' the culture around here, sure the tag some people or changes a stupid post title or ban some asshats, but for the most part, the mods here are the most invisible mods of any big moderated forum I've spent a lot of time. Maybe this is what Denis doesn't like though. Ultimately because of the restricted nature of posting access here, the mods can relax and let things run wild a bit, maybe even join in on occasion, with the knowledge that they can always reign things in if they need to.

Forum moderation is a hard topic though. There is no real good solution to it. I prefer mods to be just active enough to keep the forums functional, ie. preventing crapflooding, threats/intimidation/harassment, illegal activity, etc. I could really care less if someone get's call an idiot in an argument or something. Sure personal attacks are against the rules, but generally as long as they don't get to vicious (going into the threat/intimidation/harassment area) I don't think they harm the forums.

And to be honest some people just are idiots, and you have to call a spade a spade. :lol :lol

 

[Nolan.]

True, and the 'eternally optimistic preview' has been a big problem. On the consumer side, I think it's fair to say we dislike previews that simply hold fire on a game, glossing over the negatives, before pouring them all out in a review.

If Denis does not like people describing their impressions, as is, of preview versions of games without constant qualification that the final game might turn out completely differently, then he shouldn't send out preview versions. He's complained a lot about the mechanics of previews in the industry, but this is one instance where he hasn't taken a stand and 'put up or shut up' by refusing to participate in the process.

I just kind of give up to a degree when it comes to Dyack. If you criticise or even expose wholes in his ''armour'' you immediately verge on coming across as ''haters''. As pointed out by some of them on 1up yours. I'm not interested in standing on the side and laughing at anyone. I am interested however in trying to get him to see what he's doing blatantly wrong and correct it. I want his studio to be among the best but personally I feel like he single handedly damages their image.

 

[Flo_Evans]

How did he justify the hilariously shitty quality of TH intro cinematic?

Because that's what we were making fun of. Well, most of us.

He touched on that outsourcing was unethical, so why can't they hire an in-house animator? I don't really think it unethical to hire out someone to do a job that you are not very good at.

Its funny when I started my company we would try and do everything in house, wasting our time and delivering an inferior product instead of focusing on what we are good at we tried to handle all the technical aspects and it was a disaster.

Is Dennis going to design the cover and press the discs too? :lol

 

[GrayFoxPL]

preview code.

Ahh! Can't wait to see "the amazing version" of it in final build.

I'm sorry, but I just don't belive in a turnover of this caliber.

 

[besada]

I kind of agree with you here, but to play the flip side, you can not tell how good a movie is going to be from a trailer

Except people make decisions on seeing movies based on trailers all the time. That's why they exist. Trailers, previews, demos -- they're all marketing material. They are the publisher attempting to show you only the best parts of the game, in an attempt to get you to purchase it.

The hypocrisy here is just overwhelming. Dyack agreed to the release of all of this promotional material, knowing that it's function was to convince people to buy a game they had not played, but gets outraged when there's a grassroots response to the promotional material.

 

[NH Apache]

That's cool, but an opinionated preview doesn't not give an opinion on the retail full game.
I can play a demo, and could 'review' the demo. Which is a preview of the whole game.

You can't say Too Human is shit based on preview code. But you can say the preview code build of Too Human is shit. If you see what I mean?

The Mark McD thing was the perfect example. 1up were reviewing the material shown at E3. So Mark had to review the demo. In his opinion the demo met the criteria for the 'terrible' rank. That's cool, his opinion matters, and that's what he thinks of that demo. But, that doesn't mean he thinks that about the final game. This is what Dyack didn't understand. reviewing a demo showing, is not reviewing the final game. A game can massively change, so can someone's opinion.

^^Totally agree

Edit:

Except people make decision on seeing movies based on trailers all the time. That's why they exist. Trailers, previews, demos -- they're all marketing material. They are the publisher attempting to show you only the best parts of the game, in an attempt to get you to purchase it.

The hypocrisy here is just overwhelming. Dyack agreed to the release of all of this promotional material, knowing that it's function was to convince people to buy a game they had not played, but gets outraged when there's a grassroots response to the promotional material.

You are right. What I meant to say was, in general, people do not review a movie based on a trailer.

 

[PuppetMaster]

Thank you GAF for bringing the crazy in Denis Dyack out into the open for all to see!

 

[Zeenbor]

That being said I do think he quality of this forum has degenerated in recent years.

You're just saying that.

Before there was way, way more trolling and joke characters. We're actually in a stable period in GAF history. No new hardware releases, Nintendo dominating the market, it's not Sales-Age anymore, E3 really not being there (so less flaming), etc. Think about it... GAF adapts to the industry.

Sure, there are more silly GIFs and photoshops and maybe some of the newer members are not posting as much substance as they should, but who cares? You still get valuable substance on this forum and I think it will always be there.

Besides, GAF is about pure entertainment.

 

[GrayFoxPL]

He touched on that outsourcing was unethical, so why can't they hire an in-house animator? I don't really think it unethical to hire out someone to do a job that you are not very good at.

Its funny when I started my company we would try and do everything in house, wasting our time and delivering an inferior product instead of focusing on what we are good at we tried to handle all the technical aspects and it was a disaster.

Is Dennis going to design the cover and press the discs too? :lol

You're kidding me, right?

You nailed it thou. He should design the cover too.

 

[Panajev2001a]

"and (after being to symposiums and finishing simulatenously two books) I went over at NeoGAF and thought "umph" this site needs reform!"

What a pretentious ...

Sigh...

 

[Nolan.]

I swear I can hear someone breathing with their mouth open .


(sorry that annoys me a lot for some reason).

 

[[Nintex]]

Mods, I've got one simple request, just lock every thread with anything Too Human in it.

This is just one big PR stunt to try and get some more sales for that game. If it wasn't for GAF's overreaction Too Human wouldn't be a subject in this podcast. Instead they would be talking about good games. Just let Denis Dyack live in his fantasy world in which Too Human is the best game created by mankind but leave us out of it.

 

[Cold-Steel]

BTW for those of you who think these forums are on the decline, you're completely wrong and really haven't been here long enough to witness some of the worst of GAF to come out. Heck, we even have an evil twin forum!

Spoiler

(they aren't actually evil, just different)

As for Dennis' comments, I give them 4/5 Maxim Stars.

 

[cw_sasuke]

publicity stunt....poor guy...

 

[Flo_Evans]

You're kidding me, right?

You nailed it thou. He should design the cover too.

Nope. Too be fair they did try and outsource their engine and it didn't go so well so I can sort of understand his current POV that they need to do everything in house.

And really what the fuck is he doing reading 3 books at once and preparing outlines of how to fix societies problems? Fix Too Human!

May I suggest some reading for you Dennis if you have time?? http://www.amazon.com/dp/0066620996/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Specifically the chapters dealing with finding your focus and doing that ONE thing as well as you can. You can not be all things to all people.

 

[Rolf NB]

Too Full Of Himself

Spoiler

trilogy to be concluded on the Yaris 540, if the first one doesn't implode on itself; ha, I made you highlight that!

 

[Starchasing]

So... if bitching about a thread is a ban.... what is bitching about neogaf?!?!