Support NeoGAF

[MaddenNFL64]

I've just listened to it, and this thread's title is taken way out of context. And I actually agree with many of the things Dyack touches upon throughout the podcast.

I agree with ya. BTW I'm fence sitting here, thinking aloud at how absurd this has all become. Seen Dyack take shit long before his post E306 rant, and it's obviously gotten worst from there. He pushes buttons, then a chunk of the forum pushes back, and it's snowballed continuously.

 

[Phthisis]

It's pretty annoying what we do to public figures in our culture. Anytime any of them says or does anything that raises the slightest bit of disagreement, or make a mistake, or display the slightest bit of emotion, we rake them over the coals for it. There is no room left for them to actually be human, to demonstrate fallibility. And so what we get instead of enthusiastic developers is PR agents that repeat safe marketing bullet points. And instead of politicians that discuss the real issues, they repeat slogans and pronounce themselves "for the environment" and "against poverty." But props to Dennis for not just being a PR bot for his product. And for leading a thoughtful discussion about internet culture and gaming.


I did think that, while most of his points are valid, there is more than a bit of a disconnect between discussing corporate culture and discussing internet forums. I think discussing sites like NeoGaf as Non-for-profits is a misnomer. It is more like a very loose social organization. A very, very loose one. In fact, even calling it a "social organization" is a bit like calling the people who scrawl things on the bathroom wall of a gas station part of an "organization." Nevertheless this doesn't undermine his essential criticisms about the way the forum functions, it just means it doesn't line up so neatly with his other ideas about changes in corporate culture (though there certainly are behavioral parallels that might indicate an underlying commonality of some form).

Ultimately, however, I try to remain optimistic that the behavorial patterns demonstrated on this forum are more about the specific demographic that posts here and less a result of the larger social phenomenon of our collective interaction with new communication technology such as the internet.

In short, my mental conception of NeoGaf is that of an illiterate 14 year old boy. I don't think its representative. Hopefully somewhere most of the idiotic posters here have parents, or teachers, or someone around them who can help beat the stupid and the obnoxious out of them before they reach true adulthood. But regardless, it's not something Denis, or 1up, or even the mods at this site, can do for them. It takes real world interaction and hopefully they get enough of it so that they don't just evolve into "manchildren" and remain there for entirety of their lives.

Great post, agree 100%

 

[LAUGHTREY]

Who's to say that John Gabriel's greater internet theory isn't a good thing? A lot of bad things come from it, but an equal amount of good comes from it as well, they just aren't paid as much attention to.


When you're on the internet, you're the full you with no restrictions. You can weed through the assholes better.

 

[EternalGamer]

If you want to see illiterate 14 year olds go post at youtube. I think mature and intelligent means not resorting to ad hominem when your position becomes untenable.

The age you place on it is somewhat arbitrary. People here don't generally act like mature, intelligent adults should and do in the real world. It is true that there is a general problem with this on the internet at large, but it is not true of every gaming forum. For example, I have been posting at Evil Avatar for years and while the community there isn't perfect (and actually seems to have degraded quite a bit over the past couple of years), you can actually have conversations there. Most people don't just communicate with memes and .gif animations. Paragraphs are the norm as are follow up posts that demonstrate an ongoing dialog, not just a series of random "drive by" comments that never do anything but attempt to draw attention to the poster.

 

[Jinko]

But this guy is on some kind of Don Quixote crusade to take down a person's right to free speech and his attitude (not opinions) smacks a bit of the brand of self-righteousness that I associate with another internet boob - Jack Thompson.

Seems you missed his point totally.

First of all think how you act towards someone face to face, if you met up with Denis to discuss his game, would you say the likes of "Dude you game is shit, it sucks balls so bad" I very much doubt it.

Yet people feel they can say that on the Internet because one there is little repercussions and they are anonymous so they aren't accountable.

 

[Iaido Sword]

OK, with that said - how do you feel Turok was treated here? Do I have a legitimate axe to grind in terms of that game's treatment?

Wait what you were a part of Turok's development?

Yeah I like Turok and thought all the action was great.

I did hear a Turok development was staged around the most western canuck city.

 

[X26]

It's pretty annoying what we do to public figures in our culture. Anytime any of them says or does anything that raises the slightest bit of disagreement, or make a mistake, or display the slightest bit of emotion, we rake them over the coals for it. There is no room left for them to actually be human, to demonstrate fallibility. And so what we get instead of enthusiastic developers is PR agents that repeat safe marketing bullet points. And instead of politicians that discuss the real issues, they repeat slogans and pronounce themselves "for the environment" and "against poverty." But props to Dennis for not just being a PR bot for his product. And for leading a thoughtful discussion about internet culture and gaming.


I did think that, while most of his points are valid, there is more than a bit of a disconnect between discussing corporate culture and discussing internet forums. I think discussing sites like NeoGaf as Non-for-profits is a misnomer. It is more like a very loose social organization. A very, very loose one. In fact, even calling it a "social organization" is a bit like calling the people who scrawl things on the bathroom wall of a gas station part of an "organization." Nevertheless this doesn't undermine his essential criticisms about the way the forum functions, it just means it doesn't line up so neatly with his other ideas about changes in corporate culture (though there certainly are behavioral parallels that might indicate an underlying commonality of some form).

Ultimately, however, I try to remain optimistic that the behavorial patterns demonstrated on this forum are more about the specific demographic that posts here and less a result of the larger social phenomenon of our collective interaction with new communication technology such as the internet.

In short, my mental conception of NeoGaf is that of an illiterate 14 year old boy. I don't think its representative. Hopefully somewhere most of the idiotic posters here have parents, or teachers, or someone around them who can help beat the stupid and the obnoxious out of them before they reach true adulthood. But regardless, it's not something Denis, or 1up, or even the mods at this site, can do for them. It takes real world interaction and hopefully they get enough of it so that they don't just evolve into "manchildren" and remain there for entirety of their lives.

Looks like Dyack isn't the only drama queen around here

 

[SickBoy]

Really? Was you around when Assassins Creed was getting ready to launch? GAF was utterly shitting on the game from video's we had seen and it was pretty much like Too Human.

Yes, I were around before Assassin's Creed launched. Perhaps I could have made it clearer, but read the whole passage you quoted:

I think GAF has been unfair to the game based on the videos (especially cutscene videos - who cares?). I don't think it's possible yet to say the game is terrible. That said, from the gameplay videos I've seen I'm kind of leery about the game. Plus, it's not like this is some special treatment applied only to Too Human... although Dyack is amplifying it with his reactions.

 

[BocoDragon]

The age you place on it is somewhat arbitrary. People here don't generally act like mature, intelligent adults should and do in the real world. It is true that there is a general problem with this on the internet at large, but it is not true of every gaming forum. For example, I have been posting at Evil Avatar for years and while the community there isn't perfect (and actually seems to have degraded quite a bit over the past couple of years), you can actually have conversations there. Most people don't just communicate with memes and .gif animations. Paragraphs are the norm as are follow up posts that demonstrate an ongoing dialog, not just a series of random "drive by" comments that never do anything but attempt to draw attention to the poster.

And how are you commincating now, son? Yeah this forum is all about memes and .gifs all right.

 

[Superfrog]

Looks like Dyack isn't the only drama queen around here

:lol

 

[Haunted]

Bish shows how it's done. Dyack could learn a few things. Derek Smart, Derek Smart, DEREK SMART.

Spoiler

although I thought Viscen's quip in the Turok thread was pretty funny

So he was perm'd? I know which site he posts on right now, but thats not what I was asking

He was perm'd afaik. Don't know the exact reason, though. End result's the same - he won't post here anymore.

 

[HK-47]

He was perm'd afaik. End result's the same - he can't post here anymore. :/

Wow, thats weak

 

[SantaC]

wow how did I miss this thread

 

[EternalGamer]

And how are you commincating now, son? Yeah this forum is all about memes and .gifs all right.

Notice the use of the word "most" in my post:

Most people don't just communicate with memes and .gif animations.

Thoughtful communication is not impossible here. It is just harder and it certainly isn't the norm. It's pretty baffling to me that the thing about my post that most people seem to want to draw attention to is my characterization of NeoGaf.

If you guys seriously think that the majority of what goes on here could be qualified as intelligent conversation, then perhaps I actually should be worried. It means you don't even recognize what that means.

 

[Azih]

Most people don't just communicate with memes and .gif animations.

Neither do most people here. But don't let that stop you from continuing with your smarmy pseduo intellectutal pretension.

 

[gregor7777]

The man is having a meltdown, just like any other GAF'er could do on any day of the week. His next step will be insulting my mother and posting pictures of animal sex. Mark my words.

 

[Azelover]

Seems you missed his point totally.

First of all think how you act towards someone face to face, if you met up with Denis to discuss his game, would you say the likes of "Dude you game is shit, it sucks balls so bad" I very much doubt it.

Yet people feel they can say that on the Internet because one there is little repercussions and they are anonymous so they aren't accountable.

We say that to each other about a person in real life when the person is not around, we don't always talk face to face, you're ignoring that. Criticize that state of affairs all you like, but it all comes down to individual choices of saying such things or not, what he's suggesting is censoring a website based on people's right to free speech.

 

[X26]

The man is having a meltdown, just like any other GAF'er could do on any day of the week. His next step will be insulting my mother and posting pictures of animal sex. Mark my words.

"why is he wearing a wig on her bac-oh my god"

terrible terrible thread that was :lol

 

[Staccat0]

I think the points he made were mostly correct. The internet itself ischanging our culture and proabaly not for the better. I come to places like Neo GAf for the cats and meltdowns and thats about it. I think intelligent discussion here is failry rare. Gamers do have a tendency to care too much about review scores and tend to judge games before they play them

However, Dyack came off as a goon.
I said before that I'll withhold my judgement of Too Human until I play the thing (if I ever do) but this obvioulsy more personal than he made it out to be. He tried to paint himself as a crusader and failed in my eyes. Who cares anyway?

Boards/blogs DO have too much sway in these days, but I think the average person knows what we alll know. The average person who would call themselves a "hardcore gamer" is probably less informed than nearly anyone on anything other than games. on top of that they have bad taste and hate art.

this has little to do with free speech. This is an internet forum and the mods have the right to deny people for being assholes and the mods do this for them... unless its funny.Wich is fine by me, because thats the only good this place is.

 

[bhlaab]

One problem is that he certainly has a right to express himself sans limitations, but in doing so, he is calling a a both self-imposed and outside-enforced restriction of others' same right. He's excluded himself from his own argument.

That's a problematic position.

Not only that, but OF COURSE the consumer has every right to say whatever the hell he or she wants about your product. Of course the consumer does and should have a much larger claim to this right than the person making the product.

I'm also sick of this whole "you haven't even PLAYED it yet" crap. Screw that, I have something called intuition. For example, if the overwhelming reaction to the preview build is negative, the trailers all look like pseudo-anime electric sword bullshit, and the proposed feature list is lacking things like 4-player co op? Yes, I believe I can make an educated guess that your final product will be awful. It's sort of why I don't buy Barbie's Horse Adventure. That is so ridiculous saying I'm somehow "not allowed" to sound off on it.
Meanwhile, Valve shoves Portal underneath some average joe's face every 5 minutes or so, adjusts the game's quality accordingly, and wins game of the year. And it doesn't even have a single anime sword!

 

[mentalfloss]

The age you place on it is somewhat arbitrary. People here don't generally act like mature, intelligent adults should and do in the real world. It is true that there is a general problem with this on the internet at large, but it is not true of every gaming forum. For example, I have been posting at Evil Avatar for years and while the community there isn't perfect (and actually seems to have degraded quite a bit over the past couple of years), you can actually have conversations there. Most people don't just communicate with memes and .gif animations. Paragraphs are the norm as are follow up posts that demonstrate an ongoing dialog, not just a series of random "drive by" comments that never do anything but attempt to draw attention to the poster.

1. Gifs are funny - nothing is wrong with funny
2. Paragraphs != intelligent discourse
3. Drive by comments add flavour to a thread and can simply be ignored


Just food for thought, but your pretense on 'forum etiquette' does not necessarily equate with anything of beneficial value over NeoGAF. These forums are still about games, first and foremost. If you're of the garden variety Watson and need your threads to ebb and flow like some classical piece of articulate discussion then it might not be the place for you.

 

[Azih]

Boards/blogs DO have too much sway in these days

No they don't.

 

[gofreak]

Garnett's final thoughts... "How much does this matter?" :lol

Much respect, G.man

Pretty much.

I wonder if Denis got how much of Garnett's closing comments about taking all this too seriously were actually directed at him.

 

[Jinko]

We say that to each other about a person in real life when the person is not around, we don't always talk face to face, you're ignoring that. Criticize that state of affairs all you like, but it all comes down to individual choices of saying such things or not, what he's suggesting is censoring a website based on people's right to free speech.

...

 

[Iaido Sword]

No they don't.

Yes they do.

Spoiler

Only on Dyack.

 

[SapientWolf]

The age you place on it is somewhat arbitrary. People here don't generally act like mature, intelligent adults should and do in the real world. It is true that there is a general problem with this on the internet at large, but it is not true of every gaming forum. For example, I have been posting at Evil Avatar for years and while the community there isn't perfect (and actually seems to have degraded quite a bit over the past couple of years), you can actually have conversations there. Most people don't just communicate with memes and .gif animations. Paragraphs are the norm as are follow up posts that demonstrate an ongoing dialog, not just a series of random "drive by" comments that never do anything but attempt to draw attention to the poster.

I guess it's all relative, because Neogaf is like Harvard compared to N4G, Gamerankings, Gamespot/Gamefaqs, forumplanet and most of IGN. If you avoid the obvious meltdown threads (like this one, or NPDs) you will find that there are plenty of opportunities to participate in intelligent discourse. The broken quote system is probably more culpable for hindering an ongoing dialogue than the posters.

The fact is, trolling can bring out immaturity in everyone, and I'm sure Dyack is well aware of that by now.

 

[Azih]

Yes they do.

Spoiler

Only on Dyack.

Touche.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

It's pretty baffling to me that the thing about my post that most people seem to want to draw attention to is my characterization of NeoGaf.

It shouldn't be baffling to you - for all intents and purposes you're 'attacking the tribe' in your assertions and directly contradicting the groupthink.

The fact that some people are taking an 'attack' on NeoGAF as a personal attack against themselves says volumes about how territorial internet users can get about things.

 

[EternalGamer]

1. Gifs are funny - nothing is wrong with funny
2. Paragraphs != intelligent discourse
3. Drive by comments add flavour to a thread and can simply be ignored


Just food for thought, but you're pretense on 'forum etiquette' does not necessarily equate with anything of beneficial value over NeoGAF.

Gifs and "Drive By" comments may be funny and have the appeal of instant gratification, but they are not examples of meaningful conversation. And when the majority of the discourse on a forum is composed of such, then, like all instant gratification, the law of diminishing returns beings to apply.

Also, paragraphs most certainly do indicate intelligent discourse. They demonstrate organized thought, and that the person has self edited and reflected on what they wish to say before exposing others to a bunch of verbal diarrhea without coherance or relevance.

 

[SMZC]

We say that to each other about a person in real life when the person is not around, we don't always talk face to face, you're ignoring that. Criticize that state of affairs all you like, but it all comes down to individual choices of saying such things or not, what he's suggesting is censoring a website based on people's right to free speech.

He's not suggesting such a thing, at least I never got that impression. Listen more carefully to the podcast.

 

[Xater]

I am still fascinated that Dyack thinks tags affect the posters here deeply. I always thought people want to get one and it doesn't matter if it is negative or positive.

 

[bhlaab]

...

Look, none of us are Dennis Dyack's mom. And he's a big boy, we have no obligation to hang his crayon drawing up on the fridge just to be nice.

 

[minkydash]

We say that to each other about a person in real life when the person is not around, we don't always talk face to face, you're ignoring that. Criticize that state of affairs all you like, but it all comes down to individual choices of saying such things or not, what he's suggesting is censoring a website based on people's right to free speech.

Is that really what he's saying? Perhaps I'm enforcing my own perspective on his points, but I felt that he wasn't so much supporting censorship, but more supporting the injection of a sense of humanity into the things we talk about on the internet. And let's not pretend we have total free speech here - this site is controlled by moderators who can change the content of posts and ban members. That is not free speech. I'm not making judgments here - I think any community of people has to be moderated in some way - but some form of control and censorship is already in place.

 

[Azih]

It shouldn't be baffling to you - for all intents and purposes you're 'attacking the tribe'

For all intents and purposes he's making a statement that he can't defend. That's something that gets you called out on GAF. A big reason why Dyack's comments get ripped apart here actually.

 

[EternalGamer]

He's not suggesting such a thing, at least I never got that impression. Listen more carefully to the podcast.

Moreover, "free speech" has absolutely nothing to do with what a website would do. "Free Speech" only guarentees you the right to say something without the government intervening. People who run a forum, are free to do anything they want to your speech and it has absolutely no bearing on your "Right to Free Speech."

 

[Iaido Sword]

So who thinks we're going to get a Too Human demo? :lol

"Denis Dyack is all for a demo." - Dyack himself.

The way he speaks it doesn't sound like there is going to be one.

 

[RiskyChris]

This is the craziest, most pathetic meltdown in GAF history.

 

[change4no1]

I think that if anything, this thread merely proves Dyack's point. Have you people even listened to the interview? In my opinion, the vast majority of what he says is not only understandable, but completely correct. I suggest you all listen to the interview and give his comments some thought as opposed to taking a couple comments out of context and looking like fools.

 

[rollingstart]

That was the first 1up-related thing I've listened to since the Che days. That was pretty good. I think you guys should bring Dyack in every week as a sort of Howard Beale-esque videogame industry prophet.

I can totally see that happening.

 

[bhlaab]

Moreover, "free speech" has absolutely nothing to do with what a website would do. "Free Speech" only guarentees you the right to say something without the government intervening. People who run a forum, are free to do anything they want to your speech and it has absolutely no bearing on your "Right to Free Speech."

Dennis isn't the one running the forum

 

[Xater]

So who thinks we're going to get a Too Human demo? :lol

"Denis Dyack is all for a demo." - Dyack himself.

The way he speaks it doesn't sound like there is going to be one.

Demo after release believe!

 

[Jinko]

Look, none of us are Dennis Dyack's mom. And he's a big boy, we have no obligation to hang his crayon drawing up on the fridge just to be nice.

That has nothing to do with being mature about your opinions and not resorting to name calling and childish behaviour, unless of course you feel childish and rude behaviour to be a good thing.

Edit:-

You stealth edited me >.>

 

[Turk]

1)numbers
2)science
3)social reform
4)???
5)profit

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

For all intents and purposes he's making a statement that he can't defend. That's something that gets you called out on GAF. A big reason why Dyack's comments get ripped apart here actually.

Except he did defend his viewpoint, rather eloquently I believe. The only questioning he is getting is on his perception that the 'GAF collective' is akin to an illiterate 14 year old boy.

I personally don't think that that is a wholly unfair comparison. I also don't believe that it is also necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Staccat0]

No they don't.

Bullshit. Major newspapers have been critisized for citing blogs as sources and plenty of game developers are living in fear of boards. Its stupid. When a person doesnt have to stand beside the ignorant oppinions that they throw around an can hide behind an avatar they should not be held in the same regard as a person who has to stand beside those oppinions.
Hell there was an episode of "studio 60" about this. Its very much in the consiousness this election as it was last election. It permeates our society wether we like it or not.

We've all seen minor stories start as a rumor on some board and get spread to major sites. Then things turn out to have been fabricated. Fact checking is almost dead.

It would honestly take me a lot of research and hours of typing to prove my point in an intelligent manner, but this is gaf and the "group think" is strong with this place. I'm just a lazy internet troll. I cant be boithered with that shit.
You know I'm right, but the power of the internet would drag this out into a bunch of bullshit and back pedeling.

I'm sleepy.

I think that if anything, this thread merely proves Dyack's point. Have you people even listened to the interview? In my opinion, the vast majority of what he says is not only understandable, but completely correct. I suggest you all listen to the interview and give his comments some thought as opposed to taking a couple comments out of context and looking like fools.

this.
It sounds like none of you listened to it.
He sounds overly emotional and defensive, but the points themselves stand up pretty strong. Unfortunately, it has been quoted poorly.

again, I question his motivation, but he's got GAF and game jounalism pegged.

 

[Iaido Sword]

Demo after release believe!

After the reviews are out.

:lol :lol :lol

I think that's what Dyack doesn't want.

 

[Azih]

Have you people even listened to the interview?

Yes, quite a few have. There have been a few point by point rebuttals that highlight Dyack's extremely sepcious reasoning and completely confused understanding of the facts. The best is really Evilore's rebuttal. Here:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11827869&postcount=1021

 

[Superfrog]

Gifs and "Drive By" comments may be funny and have the appeal of instant gratification, but they are not examples of meaningful conversation. And when the majority of the discourse on a forum is composed of such, then, like all instant gratification, the law of diminishing returns beings to apply.

Also, paragraphs most certainly do indicate intelligent discourse. They demonstrate organized thought, and that the person has self edited and reflected on what they wish to say before exposing others to a bunch of verbal diarrhea without coherance or relevance.

You're right, but for me, it's the mixture of gifs and one-liner comments and the amount interesting 'paragraph posts' that make GAF stand out. Most of the time, the latter add the juice to a topic while the former make for the fun. There are so many threads posted on GAF that it doesn't hurt much if one gets (funnily) derailed by the use of gifs from time to time.

 

[Azih]

Bullshit. .

Bullshit back to you. If internet boards were important Kane and Lynch would have tanked and we would be playing God Hand 4 and Okami 2 right now. The only game developers living in 'fear' of boards is freaking Dyack. Everybody else either ignores it or uses it for some free publicity.

Your examples are an implication of the sorry state of mainstream journalism and has nothing to do with how people behaving on VIDEOGAME MESSAGE BOARDS ON THE INTERNET.

Edit: And again http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...postcount=1021

 

[SapientWolf]

Except he did defend his viewpoint, rather eloquently I believe. The only questioning he is getting is on his perception that the 'GAF collective' is akin to an illiterate 14 year old boy.

I personally don't think that that is a wholly unfair comparison. I also don't believe that it is also necessarily a bad thing.

His viewpoint was that Denis Dyack was "leading a thoughtful discussion about internet culture and gaming." and that Neogaf gave him the overall impression of a stupid, obnoxious, illiterate 14 year old boy. I don't see how you can defend that after looking at Dyack's post history. I don't see how you could defend that after reading through the better threads here, where both devs and posters act civilly. As Dyack and Eternal will eventually learn, you can't poke a bear and then act innocent when it gets angry.