Support NeoGAF

[KGKK]

:lol :lol :lol

 

[Nolan.]

After finally getting some sleep, I had another interesting thought about why Denis has gotten such a strong reaction from GAF for so long. He broke the unwritten rule of GAF developers, which is: Thou shalt minimize thy marketing.

GAF doesn't like to be sold to (well, at least no in such an open manner). It's why we frown on guys hyping their websites, and why we frown on viral marketers.

Compare Denis's behavior to other devs on GAF:

Denis only posts about Denis. He virtually never shows up in any topic that isn't about SK or TH.

Denis is always selling TH. He's been hyping the game since he's been here, and it's his primary reason for posting.

Compare that with folks like bishoptl. He was quiet enough about his connection with Turok that some users didn't even know he was connected. I don't recall him making multiple threads wherein he told us all how great and magnificent the game was going to be. In short, he didn't come here to market to us.

Or Gazunta, who, sure, puts in a joking little "Buy Party Animals" pretty frequently, but doesn't feel the need to start his own threads praising his game. More importantly, both Gazunta and bishoptl and a dozen other devs are part of the community, here as gamers, not salesmen.

Denis came to us as a salesman, and he got treated like a salesman. There's a good lesson there for other devs. We're here for our reasons, not yours. If we can help you, that's nice, but it's not our primary function. Our function is to critique, review, rip-apart, laud, abuse, and praise the games we play. Try to market through us, and the results are always going to be unpredictable.

There are so many reasons but I feel a lot will fall on deaf ears. For one the faithfuls have already decided (I feel anyway)to play victim and that there was some secret hive meeting to tear the game apart. I also feel a lot of people have already set their minds either way. As in decided to love the game reguardless or hate it reguardless for whatever reasons. I'm still undecided.

 

[nestea]

If I didn't enter threads pertaining to Too Human, I wouldn't know that he was a member.

In contrast, I only click on Too Human threads when I hear that Dyack is having another meltdown. I usually don't post because it's just fun to watch, but this particular meltdown is hard to ignore.

 

[sennin]

Actually, I agree with Ca1amity. The way Dyack carried out his supposed "experiment" should, at the very least raise suspicion. And his constant focus on NeoGaf alone does seem to indicate that this is more of a personal response buried in the guise of some more sophisticated rhetoric. Again, however, I don't think even these possible underlying intentions completely dismiss the points he was making or necessarily invalidate them. It just means his motivation for making the argument isn't exactly intellectually pure. But I wonder if any of us ever make arguments that really are completely lacking in personal affilaition in some way. Most just aren't this transparent...

Fair enough, I can agree with you on this, but I'd take the liberty of not raising specific examples as it runs the risk of entering the gossip den.

Whoa, since when does moderators demanding civility infringe upon basic human rights? Look, if you come to my house and insult my family or make disparaging racial, sexists, or homophobic remarks, I might (after several warnings), show you the door. That does not in any way mean I am infringing upon your civil rights or your free speech in particular. As was discussed earlier, freedom of speech means freedom from government intervention. The social consequences (such as being excluded from a group, asked to leave a private residence, or being banned from a forum) does not have anything to do with free speech or any other basic human rights.

1. Moderators demanding civility is a paradoxical approach to encourage evolved comprehension through an adversarial system we enjoy called debates. I believe the term used frequently is "dictator of liberty", which is an oyxmoron in principle and in deed, but if it promotes democratic practices, I'm all for it.

2. 1st Amendment protects Americans from government intervention on free speech. It was largely designed to protect the members of the press first, and later the citizens of the United States of America. Its constitutional aegis is meant to give the people a voice against corruption and exploitation by the powers that govern public resources - central banks, military budgets and unfair labor laws, to name a few generic applications.

Yes, I am fully aware of the 1st Amendment limitations. It does not protect against corporate censorship or on private properties. It does not protect against profanities. In defamation suits, it does not protect against lies (if proven beyond reasonable doubt) with intent to damage another's reputation. Free speech is a universal right governed by UN and EU recommended guidelines - 1st Amendment is simply America's interpretation of it.

In fact, proponents of free speech encourage diversity, promote tolerance and above all, preach for equality. In dealing with racism and homophobia, I will argue free speech is the shower that rains enlightenment, while censorship fuels suspicion and further widens racial/sexist divides.

In Dyack's case however, he was calling for complete shut down of the forums. In his own words, as put up by 1up,

"The question I have to ask the moderators of GAF: Are you going to follow your own rules? With people making GIFs of myself that are, I would say, attacking me.... Why haven't 180 people been banned now? If I wanted to move in and shut that place down, do I have grounds under their own forum policy?"

Hypothetical it may be, its message and intent are clear for all to see. He expressed desire to shut the place down. The place in question is an internet forum on games, which as you've put it, might be largely populated by a lack of intelligent response, but is that due justification to shut the voices of a theme targeted at kids? Simply because children, who are not subject to the rule of the law until maturity, are making comments appropriate for their age, have hurled insults that may or may not be detrimental to the potential sales of Too Human, Dyack is justified in his oppressive suggestion of killing all voices on a forum?

This brings me over to the next point as well:

But I do think he has shown a great deal more emotional restraint than most of the people who responded to his posts. He made a few bad judgement calls, but that is no justification for the absurd sense of indignation which many displayed or the perverse amount of ridicule they heaped upon him thereafter.

I have to disagree. My idea of better emotional restraint is not to ignite attacks on children, or to shut them up completely. This is circumvention of growth with authoritative silence. It is counterproductive to a child's well-being and passage into maturity. In displaying a public outburst against children, I see nothing of the heightened emotional restraint you've painted him with; all I see is an adult bully who is attempting to over-exert his authority on noisy kids.

 

[besada]

First of all think how you act towards someone face to face, if you met up with Denis to discuss his game, would you say the likes of "Dude you game is shit, it sucks balls so bad" I very much doubt it.

Every two weeks I meet with three other professional writers in a critiquing session. They are talented guys, and we're brutally honest with each other.

Last week the following phrase was uttered about one of the stories: "This isn't just mental masturbation, it's you spraying all over my face."

We all had a good laugh, and the writer went and fixed his story. No one felt a need to accuse the writing group of being vicious or threatened to shut it down. That's how adults respond to criticism.

 

[Y2Kev]

Do you get there from the google?

I took N train to airport and stopped at The NeoGAF.

 

[Ether_Snake]

WHY WOULD YOU GIVE SO MUCH ATTENTION TO A FORUM?!?!?!

EA knows how to not pay attention to the net at least.

This guy doesn't seem to understand how big the market is, and how irrelevant NeoGAF is in the "video game market". We're talking MILLIONS and MILLIONS of gamers out there, how many actually visit NeoGAF, or any forums for that matter?

Geez, it's sad.

Forget the net Dyack, focus on the damn games and move on.

A video game is a product, not a life achievement!

 

[radioheadrule83]

Blood Omen, Eternal Darkness and MGS: Twin Snakes were all worthwhile affairs as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure Too Human will register as above average once it finally gets into peoples' hands as well...

so WHY Denis feels he has to behave this way is beyond me. It almost sounds like he's having a freakin' breakdown about it or something.

All this over a few nasty words, some genuine criticism, and a few animated GIFs.

This strikes me as a musician / performer coming on stage and then moaning about the crowd before he even begins to play. I want to like Dyack, but I think he should censor himself instead of talking about censoring others, and he should PERFORM, try and WIN US OVER. Not talk about getting us shut down.

 

[Fallout-NL]

A video game is a product, not a life achievement!

Bullshit. I would've been so goddamn proud and content had I been responsible for creating Doom or Half-Life.

 

[Stuneseht]

Fair enough, I can agree with you on this, but I'd take the liberty of not raising specific examples as it runs the risk ............I see is an adult bully who is attempting to over-exert his authority on noisy kids.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i don't think that the majority of NeoGaf are children.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

After finally getting some sleep, I had another interesting thought about why Denis has gotten such a strong reaction from GAF for so long. He broke the unwritten rule of GAF developers, which is: Thou shalt minimize thy marketing.

GAF doesn't like to be sold to (well, at least no in such an open manner). It's why we frown on guys hyping their websites, and why we frown on viral marketers.

Compare Denis's behavior to other devs on GAF:

Denis only posts about Denis. He virtually never shows up in any topic that isn't about SK or TH.

Denis is always selling TH. He's been hyping the game since he's been here, and it's his primary reason for posting.

Compare that with folks like bishoptl. He was quiet enough about his connection with Turok that some users didn't even know he was connected. I don't recall him making multiple threads wherein he told us all how great and magnificent the game was going to be. In short, he didn't come here to market to us.

Or Gazunta, who, sure, puts in a joking little "Buy Party Animals" pretty frequently, but doesn't feel the need to start his own threads praising his game. More importantly, both Gazunta and bishoptl and a dozen other devs are part of the community, here as gamers, not salesmen.

Denis came to us as a salesman, and he got treated like a salesman. There's a good lesson there for other devs. We're here for our reasons, not yours. If we can help you, that's nice, but it's not our primary function. Our function is to critique, review, rip-apart, laud, abuse, and praise the games we play. Try to market through us, and the results are always going to be unpredictable.

I'm not sure I entirely agree, because there are reasons I find Dyack offensive that have nothing to do with his used-car salesman demeanor. But I do think you're mostly right.

He sees the community as something to use for his own ends, which is not an outright awful idea. There are surely others who do the same thing. But Dyack does it without being a part of the community. He is a Jehovah's Witness from across town interrupting your meal to tell you about the wonderful world of Too Human. And he's a huge bitch about it.

 

[sennin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i don't think that the majority of NeoGaf are children.

:lol I really won't know myself actually. I don't have hard data to say either way on this. I just think that the insults are behaviors only children will be prone to repeatedly perform, unless it is a calculated attempt to discredit via reductio ad absurdum.

 

[seattle6418]

I only read the first post, and i can already say that this is the biggest piece of crap i've ever read here.

So now he's pulling for censorship? Can't stand freedom?

Why do we bother him so much? Why can't he just leave us alone?

Shut down the forum?

SHUT DOWN THE FORUM?

I'm sorry, this is unaceptable. This is not 1800. I like to believe we've improved as society.

 

[DuckRacer]

Do you get there from the google?

I think Denis calls it "the GAF" because he's looking it as "the gaming-age forums" and not GAF as a single name.

 

[NullPointer]

A video game is a product, not a life achievement!

Theres no reason it can't be both.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Bullshit. I would've been so goddamn proud and content had I been responsible for creating Doom or Half-Life.

So? You can be proud of something and yet accept that if it's not perfect or even enjoyed, it doesn't mean you're a piece of trash and have to ask your maker for a second chance at life!

Theres no reason it can't be both.

Sure, but don't make it a life achievement if it will push you to the brink and get in a war with some random internet forum, losing sleep on the issue, etc.

Come on.

 

[Nolan.]

I think Denis calls it "the GAF" because he's looking it as "the gaming-age forums" and not GAF as a single name.

Didn't people just call it gaming-age though.?

 

[Saint Gregory]

After finally getting some sleep, I had another interesting thought about why Denis has gotten such a strong reaction from GAF for so long. He broke the unwritten rule of GAF developers, which is: Thou shalt minimize thy marketing.

GAF doesn't like to be sold to (well, at least no in such an open manner). It's why we frown on guys hyping their websites, and why we frown on viral marketers.

Compare Denis's behavior to other devs on GAF:

Denis only posts about Denis. He virtually never shows up in any topic that isn't about SK or TH.

Denis is always selling TH. He's been hyping the game since he's been here, and it's his primary reason for posting.

Compare that with folks like bishoptl. He was quiet enough about his connection with Turok that some users didn't even know he was connected. I don't recall him making multiple threads wherein he told us all how great and magnificent the game was going to be. In short, he didn't come here to market to us.

Or Gazunta, who, sure, puts in a joking little "Buy Party Animals" pretty frequently, but doesn't feel the need to start his own threads praising his game. More importantly, both Gazunta and bishoptl and a dozen other devs are part of the community, here as gamers, not salesmen.

Denis came to us as a salesman, and he got treated like a salesman. There's a good lesson there for other devs. We're here for our reasons, not yours. If we can help you, that's nice, but it's not our primary function. Our function is to critique, review, rip-apart, laud, abuse, and praise the games we play. Try to market through us, and the results are always going to be unpredictable.

Is there anyway this can be added to the TOS? It's probably the only way DD will see it

 

[Death_Born]

I took N train to airport and stopped at The NeoGAF.

The N train doesn't go to the airport! It's the Lexington Avenue Express!

GAF doesn't like to be sold to (well, at least no in such an open manner). It's why we frown on guys hyping their websites, and why we frown on viral marketers.

This is because marketing = biased information. This forum is for *unbiased* information.

 

[Spoo]

I only read the first post, and i can already say that this is the biggest piece of crap i've ever read here.

So now he's pulling for censorship? Can't stand freedom?

I'm telling you man, it's the La Li Lu Le Lo. I don't even know why, but something in my brain is telling me to buy this game.

I don't want to buy this game, but already I feel a need inside. Deep inside.

 

[Iaido Sword]

So? You can be proud of something and yet accept that if it's not perfect or even enjoyed, it doesn't mean your a piece of trash and have to ask your maker for a second chance at life!

Sure, but don't make it a life achievement if it will push you to the brink and get in a war with some random internet forum, losing sleep on the issue, etc.

Come on.

What do you think Peter Jackson considers Lord of the Rings to be?

I'm telling you man, it's the La Li Lu Le Lo. I don't even know why, but something in my brain is telling me to buy this game.

I don't want to buy this game, but already I feel a need inside. Deep inside.

It's like Kojima foretold Denis Dyack's actions on GAF through MGS.

 

[Piper Az]

This place is becoming a farce when it comes to threads like this. Dennis shouldn't take GAF seriously.

 

[Elbrain]

After finishing listening to the podcast only one phrase was in my mind. WTF! Seriously come on now at best we have what 5k people really doubt we are hurting Society and such. Either way I hope this Forum doesn't crumble like he predicts.

 

[Big-E]

I am starting to get used to this "The NeoGAF". It makes us sound more important, like how the Buckeyes do it.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Dyack is hurting his team and their game. SK needs to hire a PR firm or some sort of publicist within the company to handle the interviews and promotion and keep Denis behind the scenes.

 

[Ether_Snake]

What do you think Peter Jackson considers Lord of the Rings to be?

The question: Would he spend hours and hours thinking about what people are writing on some forum about his work, for months and months, post replies, argue, and then go and bitch to Ain't It Cool News about one specific forum?

Seriously. Dyack is not being professional here. He could have focused on his game instead, stop worrying, they do play tests at their studio and all, they have feed back from journalists too, etc. Why can't he do like everyone else? It's not making his fucking game better to bitch about NeoGAF!

You guys have no idea what games I've worked on or what I'm currently working on, and heck you probably can't name one person who works on it either, but it's an extremely well known title here. I can tell you that the top five people in charge of the team read Gaf (and other forums) when a thread about game is made, they take the comments and react accordingly (bring adjustments to the games or not), the team talks about the feedback they read also, but they don't post here wasting their breaths. Why here and not at another random forum? Plus, all forum posters = a pin sized portion of all gamers who will play the game.

Waste.of.time.

 

[Stuneseht]

Can someone make a progress report thread on how NeoGaf is treating them? In other words, a thread where members can express their opinions on how NeoGaf is treating them so far.

I truly want to know how damaging NeoGaf really is or even if it is.

 

[Elbrain]

So I wonder one thing how come Denis thinks tags are currency? Seriously can we trade tags or something and give them out when we want, are people really offended once they get tagged with a horrible one?

 

[nestea]

Can someone make a progress report thread on how NeoGaf is treating them? In other words, a thread where members can express their opinions on how NeoGaf is treating them so far.

I truly want to know how damaging NeoGaf really is or even if it is.

I'm doing good, holding up well. Nice of you to ask.

 

[Ether_Snake]

So I wonder one thing how come Denis thinks tags are currency? Seriously can we trade tags or something and give them out when we want, are people really offended once they get tagged with a horrible one?

Delusion.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The question: Would he spend hours and hours thinking about what people are writing on some forum about his work, for months and months, post replies, argue, and then go and bitch to Ain't It Cool News about one specific forum?

Seriously. Dyack is not being professional here. He could have focused on his game instead, stop worrying, they do play tests at their studio and all, they have feed back from journalists too, etc. Why can't he do like everyone else? It's not making his fucking game better to bitch about NeoGAF!

You guys have no idea what games I've worked on or what I'm currently working on, and heck you probably can't name one person who works on it either, but it's an extremely well known title here. I can tell you that the top five people in charge of the team read Gaf (and other forums) when a thread about game is made, they take the comments and react accordingly (bring adjustments to the games or not), the team talks about the feedback they read also, but they don't post here wasting their breaths. Why here and not at another random forum? Plus, all forum posters = a pin sized portion of all gamers who will play the game.

Waste.of.time.

Wasn't it you who went nuts in that Ubisoft thread

 

[Stuneseht]

I'm doing good, holding up well. Nice of you to ask.

This is what i'm talking about. You'll never know until you ask

 

[jax (old)]

an aversion to dyack's lecturing style is not 'anti-intellectual' -- his parody of scholarship poses more of a threat to the intellect than stupid gaf one-liners. he gleans a shallow idea or two from each of several books he's recently read -- this drucker seems to yield the idea that organizations must do good -- and applies them in some questionable way to his ongoing apology for himself. and he does this with indecent volubility. this method doesn't inspire thought or assent or dissent; it inspires stupefaction. i haven't read the books he's got his hands on now, so i can't evaluate his grasp of them, but in the past he's revealed a poor acquaintance with the names he drops.

after listening to that podcast, though, i'm unsure whether he behaves this way out of a desire to impress or just an eccentric kind of enthusiasm -- reading his interviews, i was sure it was entirely the former

really enjoyed your input in this thread. Something quite grounded/pointed about your posts.

 

[Atrophis]

Dennis Dyack...the new Derek Smart?

Perhaps a tad too harsh :lol

 

[NoirYuki]

He's right about forums being cesspools, but I certainly don't see that changing.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Wasn't it you who went nuts in that Ubisoft thread

Didn't went nuts tho, just tried to shed some light on how long it takes for a "plan" to turn into results. I never resorted to philosophy or who knows what to prove my point And most of what I said was echoed by other posters anyway.

 

[heliosRAzi]

GAF can affect a person's life. There was a user on the OT who got embarrassed because of the internet detectives going too far. That is when EviLore made that announcement.

Before that was aztrex who decided to make a thread stating that he would like to try sucking dick once. He ended up doing it and thanked his partner for the hospitality and napkins. A few months after that, aztrex was talking about his girl or some such and we found out that he likes the big ones, a miniscule kind of thing. But then it blew up, got dugg, and the OT managed to bring all of the NEOGAF down to its knees with 500 errors.

This is the thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246732&page=11&highlight=aztrex

Apparently, he sent a folder of shemale porn to a girl he likes by accident... and then hilarity ensued.

The internet can affect people in real life, but it's rare because most people have to sense to leave.

 

[Iaido Sword]

GAF can affect a person's life. There was a user on the OT who got embarrassed because of the internet detectives going too far. That is when EviLore made that announcement.

Before that was aztrex who decided to make a thread stating that he would like to try sucking dick once. He ended up doing it and thanked his partner for the hospitality and napkins. A few months after that, aztrex was talking about his girl or some such and we found out that he likes the big ones, a miniscule kind of thing. But then it blew up, got dugg, and the OT managed to bring all of the NEOGAF down to its knees with 500 errors.

This is the thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246732&page=11&highlight=aztrex

Apparently, he sent a folder of shemale porn to a girl he likes by accident... and then hilarity ensued.

The internet can affect people in real life, but it's rare because most people have to sense to leave.

IMO, people with no shame deserves to be humbled and ridicule.

It's funny how Dyack thinks the anonymity is a problem for accountability, but on the internet, there are people publicly making a fool out of themselves and want to be known.

 

[Kade]

Don't mess with the Dyack.

He will shut you down.

 

[way more]

So I wonder one thing how come Denis thinks tags are currency? Seriously can we trade tags or something and give them out when we want, are people really offended once they get tagged with a horrible one?

Because they have value. They separate the massive unknown that post here from the colorful characters. Also by looking at them we can tell if the poster is revered, despised, smart or just a twat. Given the size of the user base here tags are the one thing that denotes a value among posters.

 

[NinajHeartless]

Just finished listening...
Props to Garnett for defending the realm of The NeoGAF (to an extent...kinda...or just props to him for offering a counterpoint instead of Shane's "uh huh yes Mister Dyack" bullshit)

 

[Tamanon]

Dennis Dyack...the new Derek Smart?

Perhaps a tad too harsh :lol

He's trying to pull a Kevin Smith, but doesn't quite have the fan cred to do it.

 

[Zombie James]

GAF can affect a person's life. There was a user on the OT who got embarrassed because of the internet detectives going too far. That is when EviLore made that announcement.

Before that was aztrex who decided to make a thread stating that he would like to try sucking dick once. He ended up doing it and thanked his partner for the hospitality and napkins. A few months after that, aztrex was talking about his girl or some such and we found out that he likes the big ones, a miniscule kind of thing. But then it blew up, got dugg, and the OT managed to bring all of the NEOGAF down to its knees with 500 errors.

This is the thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246732&page=11&highlight=aztrex

Apparently, he sent a folder of shemale porn to a girl he likes by accident... and then hilarity ensued.

The internet can affect people in real life, but it's rare because most people have to sense to leave.

Oh shit :lol

 

[GameGamer]

A video game is a product, not a life achievement!

I am very proud of some of the code I've written.

 

[rollingstart]

GAF can affect a person's life. There was a user on the OT who got embarrassed because of the internet detectives going too far. That is when EviLore made that announcement.

Before that was aztrex who decided to make a thread stating that he would like to try sucking dick once. He ended up doing it and thanked his partner for the hospitality and napkins. A few months after that, aztrex was talking about his girl or some such and we found out that he likes the big ones, a miniscule kind of thing. But then it blew up, got dugg, and the OT managed to bring all of the NEOGAF down to its knees with 500 errors.

This is the thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246732&page=11&highlight=aztrex

Apparently, he sent a folder of shemale porn to a girl he likes by accident... and then hilarity ensued.

The internet can affect people in real life, but it's rare because most people have to sense to leave.

In the case of the napkins/shemale guy, he started those threads on his own. I mean, maybe he didn't understand the consequences of his actions, but he did that to himself.

 

[eve241]

Seriously. Dyack is not being professional here. He could have focused on his game instead, stop worrying, they do play tests at their studio and all, they have feed back from journalists too, etc. Why can't he do like everyone else? It's not making his fucking game better to bitch about NeoGAF!

Dyack likes to be a pro-active member when it comes to the evolution of the industry. I think people don't give him enough credit for having no problems in putting his work's popularity on the line so that he can comment on some of these issues (previews, message boards, E3, importance of story).

This is not just about TH.

 

[PuppetMaster]

GAF can affect a person's life.

He affected his own life! He had no one to blame for his embarassment but himself.

Just like Denis has no one else to blame but himself if his game is an embarassment.


Blaming GAF for thier social suicides is like blaming the ground for someones death when they intentionally jump off a building.

 

[Zerachiel]

roflcopter.

I love Denny D. Don't ever change.

You too, NeoGAF. This shit is too entertaining.

 

[heliosRAzi]

He affected his own life! He had no one to blame for his embarassment but himself.

Just like Denis has no one else to blame but himself if his game is an embarassment.


Blaming GAF for thier social suicides is like blaming the ground for someones death when they intentionally jump off a building.

true

 

[goku3000]

why do most people on gaf trash too human while they never play it yet?