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[Dec]

If someone is threatening to use an exploit to impact the enjoyment of someone's play, I have no issue with them being affected by said exploit themselves.

Clearly the situation was hypothetical, but my interpretation of your post was much more petty.

I read it as:

I'd rather accept the exploiters than you get what you want (removal of AA) and feel justified.

But if my interpretation was wrong, fair enough.

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

No, I do not expect them to fix or action on an issue, but to acknowledge that a fix with a hypothesis is needed is perfectly reasonable.

No, not really. Expecting them to have collected all the data, analysed it and discussed it internally before deciding a best course of action while the beta is ongoing isnt reasonable at all.

You wouldn't expect them to publicly hypothesize a fix without doing that, surely.

 

[rocK`]

No, not really. Expecting them to have collected all the data, analysed it and discussed it internally before deciding a best course of action while the beta is ongoing isnt reasonable at all.

You wouldn't expect them to publicly hypothesize a fix without doing that, surely.

so you're saying developers shouldn't be open about potential issues in their beta process.

lol

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

so you're saying developers shouldn't be open about potential issues in their beta process.

lol

Nope, I said:

"Expecting them to have collected all the data, analysed it and discussed it internally before deciding a best course of action while the beta is ongoing isnt reasonable at all."

Before mentioning that I wouldn't expect them to publicly post about a possible solution without having done the above, especially during a beta test.

 

[rocK`]

Nope, I said:

"Expecting them to have collected all the data, analysed it and discussed it internally before deciding a best course of action while the beta is ongoing isnt reasonable at all."

Before mentioning that I wouldn't expect them to publicly post about a possible solution without having done the above, especially during a beta test.

Hypothesis = an understanding of the issue, not a solution.

I don't know what you mean by ALL the data, but the 10~ instances between here and reddit + the many streamers saying the same thing should be sufficient.

but whatever, I dont think arguing with you is very helpful at this point.

 

[martino]

Nope, I said:

"Expecting them to have collected all the data, analysed it and discussed it internally before deciding a best course of action while the beta is ongoing isnt reasonable at all."

Before mentioning that I wouldn't expect them to publicly post about a possible solution without having done the above, especially during a beta test.

It's better to react only from feedbacks of people making them tailored to draw one precise conclusion.
Please understand.

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

I don't know what you mean by ALL the data, but the 10~ instances between here and reddit + the many streamers saying the same thing should be sufficient.

They've acknowledged there's an issue. I was just saying I don't know why you'd expect them to post publicly about a possible solution for the issue before they'd looked into it properly.

 

[MaLDo]

No, just go with controller on PC with no autoaim and be at a disadvantage because it was their choice.

The problem is of your own creation

Removing AA for controllers is like removing controller support.

Let's draw an hypothetical scenario. I know the premise is not realistic.

In two months, the criticism is so strong that Bungie does a survey. The question:

Do you prefer to play Destiny 2 with a mouse or with controller?

Surprisingly 51% of players prefer controller (that's the hypothetical part XD)

Would it seem good to you that Bungie, to follow the line of mayority of players, completely eliminate the mouse support in the game? That is, you could not use the mouse.

It's crazy, isn't? Well, that's what you're asking for. As some cheaters are cheating, let's fuck a big chunk of players who just want to play as they always have.

 

[bigJP]

this thread is giving me a headache
but if that initial video is how aim assist behaves on pc, then it needs to be fixed before launch

 

[Kittehkraken]

One person replied to this as far as I can see.

So, when aiming for the head, the reticle tracks the head? Gee, that makes sense. But it doesn't SNAP to it. People are being hyperbolic in this thread. There is no SNAPPING. There is some aim assist, but there is no SNAPPING. Jebus.

I've tried, but I have yet to replicate anything that resembles the game moving any of my shots for me in either PvE or PvP. Like a Keyboard and Mouse, there go where I'm aiming. Only with the controller I am constantly making corrections because of recoil which is why you get that sudden jumping around sometimes. Perhaps 60fps isn't enough for the extreme AA.

 

[Mupod]

The aim assist combined with a lot of time playing Destiny 1 seems to have made me actually more effective on pad than M&K. That's insane to me, but whatever. If they remove the autoaim I'll switch to mouse.

 

[SpiceMelange]

I've tried, but I have yet to replicate anything that resembles the game moving any of my shots for me in either PvE or PvP. Like a Keyboard and Mouse, there go where I'm aiming. Only with the controller I am constantly making corrections because of recoil which is why you get that sudden jumping around sometimes. Perhaps 60fps isn't enough for the extreme AA.

The high fps = stronger AA is bullshit reddit myth from the anti AA crowd

 

[BRocknRolla]

No one cares how inept you are on the controller, that's fine - keep being you, I will just instantly dominate you when you rez thanks to the same software you use to play the game.

Do you not see what an asshole you're being right now? Are you 13?

 

[bigJP]

Removing AA for controllers is like removing controller support.

Let's draw an hypothetical scenario. I know the premise is not realistic.

In two months, the criticism is so strong that Bungie does a survey. The question:

Do you prefer to play Destiny 2 with a mouse or with controller?

Surprisingly 51% of players prefer controller (that's the hypothetical part XD)

Would it seem good to you that Bungie, to follow the line of mayority of players, completely eliminate the mouse support in the game? That is, you could not use the mouse.

It's crazy, isn't? Well, that's what you're asking for. As some cheaters are cheating, let's fuck a big chunk of players who just want to play as they always have.

well that argument is stupid. of course its going to be biased to controller. d1 was a console game. but im pretty sure if you ask most people how they play any fps on pc, they will say m/kb

 

[Kyne]

I think after a couple of months mouse+keyboard users will be at a level higher than the current 'broken' aim assist on PC for controllers.

I wonder if the devs have the same mindset which is why they thought something like this might happen, and aren't nerfing it outright.

 

[PeterVenkman]

I honestly had no idea they were bringing AA to destiny on pc. Makes me far more likely to buy it. obviously if it can be active on kb/m that's a problem, by hopefully that's fixed because more options are always welcome.

 

[Ninja Kn1ght]

I'm sure Bungie will have the stats to indicate if controller-based players have an advantage over KB&M. As for KB&M emulating controllers to get AA, well, that's cheating and removing AA isn't the answer to that.

The amount of AA offered by a weapon is one of it's defining characteristics in D1, it's makes sense to want to keep that and offer a good experience to players who want to use a controller.

 

[Razzmatazzer]

I saw Overwatch mentioned a few times, but what was the impact on the game/community when the AA was removed? I don't recall seeing threads here with controller people flipping out, but I also don't follow Overwatch closely and might've missed it. Just curious.

 

[Dec]

Removing AA for controllers is like removing controller support.

Let's draw an hypothetical scenario. I know the premise is not realistic.

In two months, the criticism is so strong that Bungie does a survey. The question:

Do you prefer to play Destiny 2 with a mouse or with controller?

Surprisingly 51% of players prefer controller (that's the hypothetical part XD)

Would it seem good to you that Bungie, to follow the line of mayority of players, completely eliminate the mouse support in the game? That is, you could not use the mouse.

It's crazy, isn't? Well, that's what you're asking for. As some cheaters are cheating, let's fuck a big chunk of players who just want to play as they always have.

Removing AA isn't the same as removing controller support.

There is no way to meaningfully further this conversation without going in the many circles I imagine this thread has already gone through, which I'm not interested in doing. No offense!

I personally think they have already handicapped the PvP with their insistence on P2P (even though I know why they did) so much that whether there is auto aim or not isn't what is going to make or break the PvP for me. It's already been broken.

I'll do it as quests/rewards demand and go somewhere else for my multiplayer.

 

[Lanrutcon]

I saw Overwatch mentioned a few times, but what was the impact on the game/community when the AA was removed? I don't recall seeing threads here with controller people flipping out, but I also don't follow Overwatch closely and might've missed it. Just curious.

I think Overwatch compensates using stupidly forgiving hitboxes. I think.

 

[gypsygib]

Needs to be turned down, not eliminated.

Mouse is like insta-aim, and you can look anywhere at anytime. Controller needs some amount of auto-aim to level the playing field.

 

[MaLDo]

well that argument is stupid. of course its going to be biased to controller. d1 was a console game. but im pretty sure if you ask most people how they play any fps on pc, they will say m/kb

So?

What fucking problem some mouse players have with controller pc players?

It's ridiculous.

If someone is cheating go for him.

 

[WillyFive]

Removing AA isn't the same as removing controller support.

There is no way to meaningfully further this conversation without going in the many circles I imagine this thread has already gone through, which I'm not interested in doing. No offense!

I personally think they have already handicapped the PvP with their insistence on P2P (even though I know why they did) so much that whether there is auto aim or not isn't what is going to make or break the PvP for me. It's already been broken.

I'll do it as quests/rewards demand and go somewhere else for my multiplayer.

People expect more out of controller support other than simply being able to navigate the menus, they also expect to be able to aim. Taking out AA is absolutely taking out full controller support for an FPS, just as how no one considers a game that you can't use the controller for menus as full controller support.

 

[bigJP]

So?

What fucking problem some mouse players have with controller pc players?

It's ridiculous.

If someone is cheating go for him.

huh?
i got no problem with it.

 

[MaLDo]

huh?
i got no problem with it.

Then why you ask Bungie to remove assists controller players need?

Why don't you ask to ban cheaters?

 

[Shake Appeal]

Why are Bungie so stubborn about weird things. This is a no-brainer on PC. Blizzard recognized this in their Overwatch beta and changed it.

 

[Dec]

People expect more out of controller support other than simply being able to navigate the menus, they also expect to be able to aim. Taking out AA is absolutely taking out full controller support for an FPS, just as how no one considers a game that you can't use the controller for menus as full controller support.

Does Siege on consoles not have controller support?

 

[bigJP]

Then why you ask Bungie to remove assists controller players need?

Why don't you ask to ban cheaters?

aim assist isnt cheating.
im saying fix it. if someone play destiny with a their tv as sound source whereas i play with a gaming headset. should i be punished because he cant hear as well as me?

same with controller on pc. that is a decision you made. if you are more comfortable with it, then good for you. but dont complain that someone is using a more optimal device for pc gaming than you.

the aim assist that was shown is ridiculous for pc gaming.

 

[ferom]

After thinking about this for a moment, I think they have to link aim assist to reduced camera acceleration. Acceleration is the most important difference between controller and mouse players.

They have to add a delay of 2 or 3 seconds between the swap of controller and mouse. This way they will avoid someone abuse the system going between mouse and controller behavior rapidly.

They have to limit the camera acceleration so a mouse masked like a controller will have aim assist but a slow enough acceleration to make the player angry.

Contrary to popular belief, that's how it is right now. You don't get native kb&m support with AA, only emulated controller, which comes with drastically reduced turn speed, increased recoil and reduced hip fire accuracy. The turn speed is even lower than on console, which makes me think they anticipated this.

I'm not sure about the delay, but the game doesn't allow any kind of simultaneus controller and m/kb input so I'm not sure how that could be exploited if you can't shoot or move while aiming for example.

 

[Kittehkraken]

Here is a video I took earlier. Again, sorry for the shit quality. I made these quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwAE9ZfdIfU

For the first kill the initial movement up his body is caused by me going up the stairs, you can see after that I held my shot just on the edge of his back. No assist.

Second kill I make my initial adjustment after almost missing and held it center mass for the rest of the kill. Again, I see no computer assistance leading me around.

Third kill I let the recoil do its thing at first without zooming. Tracking movements are my own small corrections but the recoil in all its glory was on full display. I followed that by zooming in and made the kill without any noticeable computer corrections. The exact movements I made is what was being translated in game. I pass back and fourth over him and the game follows my movements. You can clearly see my aim leaving his body, the game didn't track or hover over shit.

I just don't see this magical aim assist. Maybe I'm wrong and clearly missing it. In my eyes any of that gameplay would be identical on a keyboard and mouse (minus the epic recoil).

Edit: Only thing that looks like it might be aim assist is that one brief moment of unzoomed recoil firing. But that was a mixture of my slight input correction when I seen him coming down the stairs and beginning the unchecked recoil firing at the same time. It gave a very abrupt jumping of the gun.

 

[TSM]

Then why you ask Bungie to remove assists controller players need?

Why don't you ask to ban cheaters?

But it's not cheating. One of the strengths of the PC is that there are no limitations on the input devices. If someone wants to make a super controller (xim4) that is much more accurate than a normal controller for FPS games then that should be fully embraced. They are just taking advantage of the same mechanic that pad users are. Either the mechanic is broken or it's not. Pick one.

 

[Blackpanther25]

Why are Bungie so stubborn about weird things. This is a no-brainer on PC. Blizzard recognized this in their Overwatch beta and changed it.

What did Activision end up doing?

 

[arts&crafts]

Why are Bungie so stubborn about weird things. This is a no-brainer on PC. Blizzard recognized this in their Overwatch beta and changed it.

Well Bungie has never reallly made a real PC game before have they? PC had a Halo CE port, I am not sure if there were any others. Blizzard only makes PC games with a few console ports.

 

[MaLDo]

Contrary to popular belief, that's how it is right now. You don't get native kb&m support with AA, only emulated controller, which comes with drastically reduced turn speed, increased recoil and reduced hip fire accuracy. The turn speed is even lower than on console, which makes me think they anticipated this.

I'm not sure about the delay, but the game doesn't allow any kind of simultaneus controller and m/kb input so I'm not sure how that could be exploited if you can't shoot or move while aiming for example.

So people are crazy for a non issue. Surprise.

 

[Hyun Sai]

Contrary to popular belief, that's how it is right now. You don't get native kb&m support with AA, only emulated controller, which comes with drastically reduced turn speed, increased recoil and reduced hip fire accuracy. The turn speed is even lower than on console, which makes me think they anticipated this.

I'm not sure about the delay, but the game doesn't allow any kind of simultaneus controller and m/kb input so I'm not sure how that could be exploited if you can't shoot or move while aiming for example.

Are you sure ? Because if it's the way it is right now, why the outrage ? I'm confused.

I also hear the "more FPS = more AA" is also bullshit ?

 

[MaLDo]

But it's not cheating. One of the strengths of the PC is that there are no limitations on the input devices. If someone wants to make a super controller (xim4) that is much more accurate than a normal controller for FPS games then that should be fully embraced. They are just taking advantage of the same mechanic that pad users are. Either the mechanic is broken or it's not. Pick one.

I don't see a difference between this situation and the debate of players connecting mouses to their consoles. Those devices will not go over max speed or acceleration that controller users have.

What I'm saying is:

If you have problems with players with mouse devices in consoles, ask for removing the possibility.

If you have problems with mouse players in pc cheating the system to get aim assist, ask for removing the possibility.

But don't fuck controller players that need aim assist.

 

[MaLDo]

Are you sure ? Because if it's the way it is right now, why the outrage ? I'm confused.

I also hear the "more FPS = more AA" is also bullshit ?

Multiplayer games. Lots of people cry because think others have advantages. It's the same reason there are lots of cheaters.

You can not isolate and analyze the aim assist without looking at the rest of limitations this kind of control has versus the regular mouse.

 

[TSM]

What I'm saying is:

If you have problems with players with mouse devices in consoles, ask for removing the possibility.

If you have problems with mouse players in pc cheating the system to get aim assist, ask for removing the possibility.

On PC these are the same thing. A "pad" is whatever is reporting as a pad to the OS. Either everything reporting as a pad should be able to exploit AA or nothing should. There is no difference between the two as far as the OS, and thus the game, is concerned. Either AA is nerfed into oblivion, or people will exploit AA to the best of their abilities. That's what players have historically done even on consoles. Players will exploit anything and everything that gives them even a tiny advantage in competitive games.

 

[Ramirez]

Why are Bungie so stubborn about weird things. This is a no-brainer on PC. Blizzard recognized this in their Overwatch beta and changed it.

Because they want people who enjoy the console control experience to be able to enjoy it with the better performance. It's not them being stubborn, lol. Destiny is not a competitive game, Overwatch's entire existence is built around its competitive mode, apples and oranges.

The people who cheat with xim4 are really the only problem here. And it's such a small amount of players, asking for tons of people's enjoyment with controllers to be entirely axed like some are asking is ludicrous.

 

[Dec]

Because they want people who enjoy the console control experience to be able to enjoy it with the better performance. It's not them being stubborn, lol. Destiny is not a competitive game, Overwatch's entire existence is built around its competitive mode, apples and oranges.

The people who cheat with xim4 are really the only problem here. And it's such a small amount of players, asking for tons of people's enjoyment with controllers to be entirely axed like some are asking is ludicrous.

It isn't only the xim4. There is free software that does the same thing.

It seems inevitable to me that it will become a widespread issue over the life of the game.

 

[Spartancarver]

Kinda shitty that they locked out all 3rd party monitoring / OSD (Afterburner, RTSS) in the name of cheat prevention but then this slipped through. Hopefully it's fixed ASAP

 

[Shake Appeal]

Well Bungie has never reallly made a real PC game before have they? PC had a Halo CE port, I am not sure if there were any others. Blizzard only makes PC games with a few console ports.

It's been a while, but Bungie were once a pedigree Macintosh/PC developer. I think Marathon 2 was on PC, so were the Myth games, so was Oni.

 

[ferom]

Are you sure ? Because if it's the way it is right now, why the outrage ? I'm confused.

I also hear the "more FPS = more AA" is also bullshit ?

Yes I'm sure. Also the only way to get mouse aim even somewhat approximating 1:1 is to get a xim. They use machine learning to counter the response curves and deadzones of the controller aim mechanics specific to each game. Someone using one of the current software solutions will have to deal with wonky deadzones and response curves that are highly accelerated.

"More FPS=more AA" might have some merit if the AA samples every frame, so it could technically work better even if the values were the same. But really it's anyones guess, only Bungie knows.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Why are Bungie so stubborn about weird things. This is a no-brainer on PC. Blizzard recognized this in their Overwatch beta and changed it.

Overwatch is a different beast altogether because bliz wanted it for esports. If bungie wants to go that route, fine. If bungie wants an inclusive and accessible game for everyone, then what happened in overwatch doesn't matter.

But it's not cheating. One of the strengths of the PC is that there are no limitations on the input devices. If someone wants to make a super controller (xim4) that is much more accurate than a normal controller for FPS games then that should be fully embraced. They are just taking advantage of the same mechanic that pad users are. Either the mechanic is broken or it's not. Pick one.

Is xim AA baked into the game or does it require specific out of game workarounds to get it to work? Don't be obtuse.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Because they want people who enjoy the console control experience to be able to enjoy it with the better performance. It's not them being stubborn, lol. Destiny is not a competitive game, Overwatch's entire existence is built around its competitive mode, apples and oranges.

Destiny literally has a mode called "Competitive" in it, but okay. Aim assist should not exist in any form in a PC FPS that has PvP. It's really that simple from the point of view of just about anyone who plays PC shooters. If you want to play a multiplayer PC shooter with a controller, good luck to you.

 

[jett]

No, just go with controller on PC with no autoaim and be at a disadvantage because it was their choice.

The problem is of your own creation

What?

People in this thread are the fucking worst.

 

[Woo-Fu]

I think after a couple of months mouse+keyboard users will be at a level higher than the current 'broken' aim assist on PC for controllers.

I wonder if the devs have the same mindset which is why they thought something like this might happen, and aren't nerfing it outright.

And people with m&k+aim assist will be higher than everybody else.

Not sure why people are ignoring this, and/or downplaying it by saying it won't be very many people. It doesn't matter how many people it is. Knowing that there are people doing it tarnishes every match played. Knowing people are doing it and how easy it is to do will compel more people to do it if they want to keep playing. Also not sure why people keep saying XIM when you don't need a XIM, don't need any additional hardware or money.

I've seen it in other games, I don't know why people think Destiny 2 will be any different.

Separate lobbies for aim assist or remove it entirely from PvP, only solutions I see. Don't think Bungie will do anything, though, based upon their response. The logic is pretty straightforward, no need to "monitor" what vocal minorities post on forums to figure it out. If they can't see the problem then it effectively doesn't exist until it tangibly affects their bottom line.

 

[Cyanity]

Holy shit, there are actually people in here arguing that this is acceptable? How is headshotting moving people from across the map with little effort acceptable? Someone please explain this to me.

 

[Dec]

Edit: Not worth it, going to move on.

 

[SpiceMelange]

Funny how the anti AA crowd dont address ferom's points at all lol