Fucking the tiny fraction of people that play PC shooters with controllers is the far lesser evil than fucking EVERYONE by letting AA'd M+K run around. There is no legal workaround for Bungie to essentially hijack your PC to rpevent this, which is basically what they would have to do.
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Destiny 2 PC Aim Assist Needs to be FIXED
- Thread starter Strakt
- Start date
Fucking the tiny fraction of people that play PC shooters with controllers is the far lesser evil than fucking EVERYONE by letting AA'd M+K run around. There is no legal workaround for Bungie to essentially hijack your PC to rpevent this, which is basically what they would have to do.
OriginalPoe
Banned
Have you played the PC beta with a controller?
Not sure why you think I need to do that in order to make the post I made? I don't even have to have played the game to talk about the logistics of the situation like I was doing (and I have, before you take the wrong point from this).
Serious Sam
Member
You'd be surprised how many PC gamers play coop shooters with controllers, especially PvE oriented ones like Destiny. It's not a tiny fraction.
Bungie doesn't need to hijack my pc. Only have to analyze what input data arrives from the player. Mouse player don't move the camera like a controller player.
Controller players are no a tiny fraction. Maybe are in games with bad controller support because they run away from them.
If a player uses a mouse like a controller, I think this doesn't remove speed and acceleration limitsof a controller, right? So how this is different of console players using mouse and keyboards addons?
Got a number? I think it's safe for literally everyone regardless of whether you play with one or not to agree that it's significantly less than play with KB+M.
On consoles it's important to leave it in because virtually everyone is playing with a controller, on the PC that is simply not the case.
See above, unless you're seriously arguing that controller players comprise even close to half of all players, they are insignificant given the choice between 'cater slightly to controller players' and 'literally destroy the integrity of the aiming in this game'
And your solution would AT BEST result in people just emulating controllers with KB+M like they do on consoles already. There's nothing Bungie can do about that kind of system level control input from the player. It's not injecting anything into the game or interacting in any way beyond sending completely expected mouse and keyboard or controller commands. The only way to actually prevent this cheating is to remove aim-assist. Period.
OriginalPoe
Banned
Because I played it after playing 50+ hours of D1 on PS4 and the aim assist is nothing to even remark about IMO. Please try it. I'm asking people to give me their examples and all that is happening is bandwagoning. Either my system isn't giving me aim assist, or people are severely overreacting. Honestly, I'm not sure why anyone would accept someone's opinion on X,Y of a game without them playing it first.
This is so frustrating. Can anyone provide something other than Inigo's Twitch clip shooting his cursor from an enemy's foot to his head? That's the ONLY thing I've seen supporting this idea that the "AA" is overpowered in this game on PC. I WISH there was better AA for me using a controller, but there isn't!
Even then though, they wouldn't need to turn it off in PVE as no-one is really going to mind (and hell, I've been playing without ADS since it's easy with a mouse to do that thank fuck). It's just PVP where an advantage can be had over other players.
I think I get your sentiment here. I don't boot up Left4Dead2 because it plays like absolute shit with a controller. Might revisit with the SteamPad at some point.
I generally don't play online anyway nowadays, so I have no real beef with this situ and most games feel like they are designed first and foremost with controller nowadays anyway.
Certainly agree that this needs addressing though.
It doesn't have to be pro level competitive for it to matter, it just has to impact the integrity and fun of the game for the players.
I don't play any shooter competitively enough, for example, to give a shit about if it destroys the competitive scene, but it also destroys the average player's scene as well if it's easy enoguh to do (and it is). This isn't a console FPS where you have to buy additional hardware and play with a different control mechanism to have an advantage, this is literally running some software and simply being twice as good (or more) than you actually are. That's no fun to play against, competitive or not.
SoulUnison
Banned
This sounds like a real problem but I hope they fix it without banning people who have their controllers plugged in but also used their mouse and such.
This game has vehicles, right?
I usually use the controller in vehicles for the analog controls and then switch to mouse and keyboard whenever on foot in games that switch seamlessly.
This game has vehicles, right?
I usually use the controller in vehicles for the analog controls and then switch to mouse and keyboard whenever on foot in games that switch seamlessly.
BlitzEngineer
Member
And not "fixing" this makes the game shitty for those that prefer not getting mirked continuously by what amounts to a pseudo-aimbot.
And you guys who keep bringing up magic code detection need to gain some perspective. Bungie is not nearly the first developer to have an issue of this kind. Blizzard couldn't find a solution to make controller AA work on PC so they removed it. It's not so simple as saying "Just read the code and if XIM is running ban the player". It's way, way more complicated than that. It's not just "hard", it's a problem nobody has found a solution to yet.
Just look at how difficult anti-cheat measures are on PC. Now drastically lower the barrier to entry for people looking to use the exploit, and realize enabling AA for a mouse isn't some complicated process requiring malicious software.
I mean, it's possible Bungie does find some cheat detection solution for this. But in the likely scenario where they don't, AA needs to be removed for PvP not to be littered with unpreventable exploiting.
Serious Sam
Member
I can ask the same. You got the number that it's a tiny fraction?
Also, you might want check out Gears of War 4 crossplay developments. Coalition did extensive tests where PC players using KB+M were paired against Xbox controller users, and after lots of monitoring and data crunching they found that PC players have no advantages whatsoever. After that they implemented crossplay permanently and everyone's happy.
No, it does not. That's just one way.
Gears of War 4 is not REMOTELY the same thing as Destiny. Destiny pvp is a twitch shooter with insanely fast moving characters flying all over. Gears of Wars is about tanks slamming into a wall and remaining stationary for large periods of time and aiming at huge meatballs. I say that lovingly. If mouse and keyboard wasn't an advantage, people wouldn't use them on games like Overwatch on console specifically for an advantage.
A quick google also says that Gears 4 doesn't even have auto-aim of any sort, just some bullet magnetism, also only on consoles. Which would not matter in your example anyway: Nobody would care if Xbox One players had AA and PC had AA turned off, for example, that would be much MORE fair, you're absolutely right, but that's not the discussion we're having.
Your argument is basically stating that you think, due to Gears 4's crossplay, that Controller with no AA is totally competitive vs M+K. If that's what you think, then you should bhe just fine with them removing it.
OriginalPoe
Banned
I honestly feel like I am going insane. Can you post a clip of this aim assist in action other than that Twitch clip of Inigo/StreamerHouse? I can't get the snappy aim thing to work using any controller on my PC.
Do I need to be holding the left stick in the direction of the weak spot while hitting ADS?
I just don't get it. I can't recreate any sort of aim assist...
KingpinZero
Member
MaLDo, sorry but your persistence into using a controller it's not a good argument, it's your problem. Aim Assiste should be there for PVE content, coop stuff, not competitive or PVP.
Because it makes gamepad players happy, but at the same time it's unfair even if it's half snap.
Overwatch did the right thing; aim assist is a no go from a competitive wise perspective, it needs to go. If you keep being persistent into using a gamepad in pvp sessions, then it's your problem.
It's PC. It has a wide range of options, accessibility, devices, everything you want. It makes the platform powerful.
But since the dawn of time, PC means competitive FPS and M+K setup, period.
I have a friend like you who cannot get himself to play M+K because he doesn't compute at all buttons positioning, and has the worst even coordinantion brain/hand ever.
He put himself into some serious hard training and now he's rocking keyboard and mouse, and his first comment was "it's night and day, you were right".
That's all. Aim assist in PVP modes - at least on pc - needs to go, like other games do (GTAV as an example).
OR another solution is that their matchmaking puts controller users together and against the same breed, like some gamepad-playlists only.
Oh and just to make it clear i'm not biased toward K+M which is obviously the superior controlling mode. I do use (alot) the pad for everything else, specially with chilling PVE games, single players, racing games and such.
Its simple: it doesnt have a place in FPS on PC. That's all.
Whether you can get it to work or not is somewhat irrelevant (perhaps it's tied to very high framerates and you have it locked to 60) when it is super easy for anyone using m/k to play with it and basically enable an aimbot where you only right click and it tracks the target for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-U0ZAPpIXY
Lanrutcon
Member
I went into Youtube. Typed "destiny 2 aim assist pc". Very first result had slowed down frame by frame examples of the dude landing shots when his reticule wasn't even touching the target's model.
There was a video just back a page on YouTube showing it too. Specifically 4:40 or so. Sadly I'm on mobile but I tried to make a gif.
This is someone playing with KB and M but emulating a controller.
Kittehkraken
Member
My XB1 controller reacts almost identically to what you posted. I haven't noticed anything as extreme as what other people have been showing. If I had tracking like that my kills would be through the roof. Barely missing a lot of head shots with the scout rifle goes against everything that one video showed.
OriginalPoe
Banned
Okay, I don't think that is aim assist. His reticle isn't snapping to enemy's weak points. I see what you mean about some shots hitting without the reticle being on the enemy's body, but that doesn't seem like aim assist rather than P2P hosting/latency issues.
It's absolutely relevant, and I'm running the game at 100fps on average on a 144hz Gsync monitor. Again, I would love some video proof of aim assist (not poor tracking due to P2P or low tick rates)
First of all, I never mentioned "magic code detection". I clearly said I'm not a developer and that I don't know would such a thing be possible, so let's not twist words.
Secondly, how many people do you expect to go out and spend $160 on XIM4 or search reddit for tutorials on how to enable this? Millions will buy this game and believe me, most people will be completely unaware on how to do this. Even if Bungie removed AA, those so desparate to cheat will find a way to do so without XIM4 and without "legal" programs.
If you want Bungie to fight cheaters by telling controller players "we are making your preferred way to play Destiny 2 completely useless in PVP, better switch to mouse and keyboard unless you like being frustrated", you should be aware that you just made the game shitty for many people while combating only ONE method of potential cheating.
Lanrutcon
Member
There's a difference between injecting malicious code into the game to cheat and using things to fool windows to believe it's a controller. One can be seen and the other can not.
Literally just aiming in something's general direction. I just went in, plugged in my xbox controller, and recorded some video since you seem unconvinced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8hhRyv_4Dc&feature=youtu.be
Apologies for the very low framerate on the video itself, obs has been a problem, but it's still VERY obvious.
That entire video I did not move the right stick AT ALL (after the initial moment when I turned to face where the mobs were going to spawn). Literally walk towards the door - slight shift right to track the dude. step backwards - slight shift back left to track again. Back past the previous guy - EXTREME swing to the right to track that fat ass. None of that is me, that's just regular ass aim assist while I move ONLY the left stick (no buttons, no right stick, nothing).
EDIT: I recorded twice, the first time I forgot to change the bitrate from "trash can" but it does have the proper framerate and you can still tell what is going on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TpdCHItI9k&feature=youtu.be
Literally the only movemenjt I made in that video with the right stick is the obvious 180 I make at 9.5 seconds. The dramatic swing right before that was auto-aim. The DRAMATIC following of the dude after that? auto aim.
Now, will you stop pretending it doesn't exist? That second video I linked the auto-aim turns me almost 90 freaking degrees to keep me on target.
Making one program that does it automatically while being undetectable would probably not take a good programmer very long. Hopefully they will fine tune the Aim Assist before the final release or after so it wont be a huge advantage.
How would you know what kind of input device they used in your games to make that judgement?
The video I linked is proof of the aim-assist you can enable even as a m/k-player. He doesn't have to move his mouse at all to maintain the sight on them when they move. He only needs to slightly adjust the sight up and it tracks the head instead of the chest.
What's in that video has absolutely nothing to do with "poor tracking due to pvp or tickrates", that's another issue completely and I think it does feel a bit off when you shoot people and my kills can often be slightly delayed after I have finished shooting all my bullets and then they die half a second later.
BlitzEngineer
Member
This angle of your argument is incredibly poor. Do you think cheating is an issue in multiplayer FPS games generally on PC? I do. Consider that this spoofing method is significantly easier to set up and essentially impossible to detect when compared with the software required to cheat in say, CS:GO. A game that still has issues with cheating after years of support from the developers.
Millions of people don't need to use it. One person in my match needs to use it, and my experience is diminished. All in the name of leveling the playing field for controller users.
And you want Bungie to cater to the needs of controller devotees by diminishing the experience for the ENTIRE playerbase. You should be aware you just made the game shitty. Period.
Kittehkraken
Member
My apologies for the crappy quality (ipod). But this was taken in PvP using my XB1 controller at 60fps. If you zoom in you will find it must easier to see what is going on.
With my Scout Rifle I get virtually zero tracking. I tried just barely missing his head, and I succeeded. Not he best video I know, but I don't get that head shot tracking the other videos are showing. If I don't aim for the head, I don't hit it.
With my Scout Rifle I get virtually zero tracking. I tried just barely missing his head, and I succeeded. Not he best video I know, but I don't get that head shot tracking the other videos are showing. If I don't aim for the head, I don't hit it.
My apologies for the crappy quality (ipod). But this was taken in PvP using my XB1 controller at 60fps. If you zoom in you will find it must easier to see what is going on.
With my Scout Rifle I get virtually zero tracking. I tried just barely missing his head, and I succeeded. Not he best video I know, but I don't get that making head shot tracking the other videos are showing. If I don't aim for the head, I don't hit it.
If you aim near the body, you get body shots, if you pull up to aim at the head, it'll keep tracking the head. I was getting this in my very first test just doing pve, my 'recoil' just holding the right click was PERFECTLY tracking mobs heads once I hit them with an initial headshot. So basically, it autolocks to their body, you flick up, and now you're autolocked to their head. It's ridiculous. if you're intentionally trying to aim 'near' their head you're going to be shooting 'near' their head, the autoaim is primarily for tracking not flat out target acquisition. Look at my videos above, it doesn't just instnatly lock on, but rather once I pass my reticle over them it tracks flawlessly.
It's a common sense. Mouse will always turn faster and will be on target faster than controller. Even with autoaim, you have to position the aiming reticle on your target or very close to it. Mouse player will always be on target faster, specially in situations where twitch reaction is needed.
You have no idea what's possible and what isn't, so try not to talk like you do. Only Bungie knows if they can or cannot detect stuff like this. Besides you just proved my point, if this is removed and people still want to cheat, there is always a way. But, by removing AA, you make the controller completely useless in PVP. So there is still cheating but you fucked over controller users. How pointless.
I guess your experience is the only one that matters. Me and the rest of people that prefer to use controllers can go fuck ourselves so BlitzEngineer's experience won't suffer since he/she might once in a while encounter a player using AA with M/KB.
Entire playerbase suffering means that every single person will encounter people using AA+M/KB combo in PVP. Are you sure that this is going to be so widespread or are you just spreading pointless panic?
Kittehkraken
Member
Doesn't matter what I do, I don't get tracking that comes even close to some of stuff that has been posted. Even some of that I think might be recoil being a bit wonky. Point of the video I posted is that where I shoot is where my shots are landing. People are acting like anyone with a controller can just lazily aim in another players direction and the computer does the work for you because it'll track the player and snap onto them. That just isn't happening for me.
Edit: I just tried another game, same results. Like I said before, where I aim is where my shots land. If I try and let the game track or snap on target with or without zooming on any part of the body, the sheer amount of recoil sprays wildly unless I personally correct it. If I track a target myself through slightly correcting the recoil and moving with them, I shoot where I aim with no noticeable computer correction going on. The game isn't doing the work for me.
My Twitch login wasn't working yesterday, but I made a twitch clip 3 YEARS AGO during the D1 Beta about how generous the AA is. In this clip I'm not adjusting my aim at all between both targets I kill here. It just switches from one target to the other:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/48049245
Edit:
Also here is a thread over at the OW forums with someone requesting AA on PC:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749035263
It goes over with the players about as well as you'd expect.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/48049245
Edit:
Also here is a thread over at the OW forums with someone requesting AA on PC:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749035263
It goes over with the players about as well as you'd expect.
Exactly. Cheaters gonna cheat. Fight them.
Controller players are not guilty. Respect them/us.
That's not snap-on AA. He shoots the first bullet at his feet and it doesn't hit, recoil takes the reticle to the head an he hits his second shot. I've yet to see any evidence of snap aim assist in this game, someone prove me wrong.
Exactly, there is no snap, I've tried 2 matches yesterday and not once I had reticle snap on target.
Played the Beta yesterday on my machine with a controller. Didn't play competitive but I did play the intro mission and a raid with a buddy (who was using KBM).
I agree that for skill based modes like Competitve, it needs to be dialed back or even monitored in game so that players who are making aim-bot like movement are more heavily penalised. There is going to be opportunities for abuse - but even without AA people who want to cheat will find a way to do so, regardless if Bungie give them the tools to do so.
They shouldn't remove it though. AA made the game far more enjoyable for me - and certainly put it on par with the console experience. It says a lot that the enemies and engagement seem perfect designed for this too.
I agree that for skill based modes like Competitve, it needs to be dialed back or even monitored in game so that players who are making aim-bot like movement are more heavily penalised. There is going to be opportunities for abuse - but even without AA people who want to cheat will find a way to do so, regardless if Bungie give them the tools to do so.
They shouldn't remove it though. AA made the game far more enjoyable for me - and certainly put it on par with the console experience. It says a lot that the enemies and engagement seem perfect designed for this too.
It stays on targets and is known to switch to nearby moving targets within close proximity. I posted a clip a few posts up of my camera completely centered cycling between multiple targets. I didn't record it but I also had a few instances where I'd be aiming at someone and the AA would pull my reticle to a person running right by said target. Snapping isn't an accurate description but it certainly tracks (aggressively so)
martino
Member
there are no good reasons why somme people are quick to react with poor data sample and don't want to wait more for of them to take decision.
Exactly this. If you find a target it doesn't let go. I think people are getting caught up on the use of the word "snap" when it's more of a "hold". I agree that it isn't the best way to describe what's taking place, but there is still some aggressive tracking once a target is found.
BlitzEngineer
Member
You've got a complete knowledge of my software development experience, then? You have no idea what I know or don't know. This is what I meant by the "magic code" quip earlier, buddy. It's not arcane knowledge only accessible to those who walk the hallowed halls of the Bungie offices. They're playing by the same rules the rest of us are. They aren't going to make pigs fly.
Come off it man. KB/M is the vast majority of the playerbase. I want the game to be good, and fair. Having AA implemented in this way makes it less good, and less fair. Why do you think your experience is more valuable than mine?
Did you even read my point? Playing against cheaters sucks. It's widespread even in games that actively curb it, and where the barrier to entry is higher. Here they will not be able to curb it, and the barrier to entry is extremely low. Now, do you think it will be more or less widespread than in a game like CS:GO?
Yea, it has slowdown and adhesion assist, but it's not "snapping to heads" like a lot of people claim. FWIW, I do think the AA should be reduced across the board, both console and PC. I thought the PS4 beta had less AA than PC, but that could just be the increased responsiveness and temporal resolution inherent to 60+ fps on PC.
Lanrutcon
Member
hmmm will a virtually undetectable aimbot be popular in an online shooter...
Sorry, couldn't resist.
It's more about not knowing what everyone uses so not being able to say if they were better or not. There is no question that kb/m will always lead to better results (excluding AA like here obv).