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[EL CUCO]

But it isn't. The ttk is the same, and target acquisition is hardly any different. The pilgrim is a weapon for people that can't get a messenger. I don't understand why people are so fixated on the pilgrim if they happen to have a messenger.

If you don't have a messenger, then farm for a pilgrim or spare change. If you have a messenger, then you are fine.

Heh, the drop rate is so scarce on HP that I'm tempted to say its the other way around. Just a few weeks ago everyone could buy a Messenger at Brovance. Took me almost 100 strikes to get my HP. I loved my Messenger, still do. But HP is the better over all weapon hands down. Yes you can have the same result with a Messenger as you would with a HP, but with less effort.

Messenger only beats out HP in base range, but after upgrading the perks on mine, I don't even notice it anymore. The max stability allows you to easily out snipe, snipers.

 

[Definity]

Ah...the good 'ol hopscotch vs messenger debate.

Think I'm close to 100 strikes now and still nothing. I like the messenger but it does sometimes feel a bit sluggish.

 

[Lima]

I got it in like 5 strikes.

Just because HP is harder to obtain than Messenger, doesn't make Messenger a better gun.

Anyone who says otherwise is not being truthful.

5 too many.

 

[zewone]

Heh, the drop rate is so scarce on HP that I'm tempted to say its the other way around. Just a few weeks ago everyone could buy a Messenger at Brovance. Took me almost 100 strikes to get my HP. I loved my Messenger, still do. But HP is the better over all weapon hands down. Yes you can have the same result with a Messenger as you would with a HP, but with less effort.

Messenger only beats out HP in base range, but after upgrading the perks on mine, I don't even notice it anymore. The max stability allows you to easily out snipe, snipers.

Didn't know you got one. Congrats!

5 too many.

Hey, I am in dire need of weapon parts, it works out. heh.

 

[Doge]

I've used the Messenger for a long time and have all the elements, Hopscotch is better.

If people only used ttk as the only factor of what makes a weapon good/better, everyone would use The Last Word.

Hopscotch has:

- larger magazine size
- higher stability
- better Aim Assist
- better handling
- rerollable!

Sure, claim all of those are only marginally better, but they all add up. Why would you not want to use the best pulse of the two?

6 more bullets? Fine, you can argue that is potentially another kill if you can even land your shots.

Higher stability? The messenger has absolutely no recoil issues when you use perfect balance so this is a moot point for the pilgrim. How much more stable can a gun get? I do not even know how this can be looked like at as a plus when the messenger has excellent recoil control with perfect balance.

Higher aim assist? The difference is minute. It isn't as a significant as it would be with snipers.

Better handling? Messenger already has excellent recoil control, and target acquisition. Anything above that is simply minute.

Rerollable? Yes, that is superior, but just cause you can reroll it, it will not make the gun significantly better. The difference between the two is minute, and at this point it would be perk preference.

If I had both I'd definitely use Hopscotch. Do you think the superiority of it over the Messenger merits grinding dozens of hours in hopes of getting one if you already have a Messenger? Or is it more that if you happen to have both, then the choice is clear?

No.

If you have a messenger, do not farm for a pilgrim. It is not worth the grind. The differences between the two is minute.

On paper the pilgrim is a better gun, but in reality, the differences is insignificant. And if you have a messenger, there is no need to farm for a pilgrim. There is no need to grind for something when the upgrade is not even going to be substantial.

 

[EL CUCO]

Didn't know you got one. Congrats!

Thanks! Got it on Sunday. Reforged, maxed and ascended about 30 min later. Love it. I want another one so I can try to roll Outlaw/Feeding Frenzy and Reactive reload.

 

[zewone]

6 more bullets? Fine, you can argue that is potentially another kill if you can even land your shots.

Higher stability? The messenger has absolutely no recoil issues when you use perfect balance so this is a moot point for the pilgrim. How much more stable can a gun get? I do not even know how this can be looked like at as a plus when the messenger has excellent recoil control with perfect balance.

Higher aim assist? The difference is minute. It isn't as a significant as it would be with snipers.

Better handling? Messenger already has excellent recoil control, and target acquisition. Anything above that is simply minute.

Rerollable? Yes, that is superior, but just cause you can reroll it, it will not make the gun significantly better. The difference between the two is minute, and at this point it would be perk preference.



No.

If you have a messenger, do not farm for a pilgrim. It is not worth the grind. The differences between the two is minute.

On paper the pilgrim is a better gun, but in reality, the differences is insignificant. And if you have a messenger, there is no need to farm for a pilgrim. There is no need to grind for something when the upgrade is not even going to be substantial.

Is 2>1?

It's minute, but one is greater than the other.

 

[todd360]

2 spots on the dinosaur train

 

[D_psipher]

2 spots on the dinosaur train

About to hop on now. PSN is D-psipher.

 

[Doge]

Is 2>1?

It's minute, but one is greater than the other.

If you have the messenger there is no point in farming for something when the upgrade is not going to be substantial.

I never said the messenger is the best, on paper the pilgrim is an upgrade, but in reality the differences aren't even significant enough to warrant a person to farm for when they already have a messenger.

And if we are going to use this 2>1 one argument, then skip pulse rifles, and go straight to the thorn. Two taps to the head, dead. Three taps to the body, dead. You don't even need to be present when they die.

 

[ReignofSparrows]

I will stand by my assertion that the Messenger is objectively better than the HP. The HP has very minimal, arguably negligible, advantages in some stats but no elemental properties. This makes the Messenger superior for PvE and marginally worse for PvP, but only in the event that I want to purposefully put myself at a disadvantage by using something other than an exotic hand cannon. Like, maybe there are scout rifles out there with better stats than the Fang, but they would be a poor PvE choice and never see a match in PvP.

In short, the Messenger is better to me because it's clearly better than the HP for the situations where I'd actually use either gun.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

2 spots on the dinosaur train

You guys having better luck today than yesterday? I was quite the anchor. Felt like I had a VIP target over my head. I did some games with randoms a got "best around" twice.

 

[todd360]

We still lose a lot lol

 

[zewone]

If you have the messenger there is no point in farming for something when the upgrade is not going to be substantial.

I never said the messenger is the best, on paper the pilgrim is an upgrade, but in reality the differences aren't even significant enough to warrant a person to farm for when they already have a messenger.

And if we are going to use this 2>1 one argument, then skip pulse rifles, and go straight to the thorn. Two taps to the head, dead. Three taps to the body, dead. You don't even need to be present when they die.

Let's go back to where you got it wrong.

Is Hopscotch better than Messenger?

No it isn't.

OK, right there. You're saying 2=1 or 1>2.

2 > 1 is my whole point. You can say that 2 take a long time to get, but it doesn't mean that 2 is not greater than 1.

 

[Reluctant-Hero]

Holy crap at this Hopscotch vs Messenger debate. I (A) don't have the skills to go 9-0 in ToO and (B) would rather raid Crota or run PoE than grind Dragons.

I'm content with maxing out my Red Death and newly earned Thorn. Maybe one day I'll get an Oversoul Edict for my legendary pulse. Do any of the tower vendors sell a decent pulse?

 

[Lima]

I can confirm that 1 is better than 2. Who likes to be number 2 after all. Fuck your math.

 

[Doge]

Let's go back to where you got it wrong.




OK, right there. You're saying 2=1 or 1>2.

2 > 1 is my whole point. You can say that 2 take a long time to get, but it doesn't mean that 2 is not greater than 1.

Fair enough, and now let me reiterate. The pilgrim is a better weapon on messenger on paper, but the differences are insignificant in reality, and there is no point for farming for one when you already have a messenger. Simple as that.

 

[ocean]

I will stand by my assertion that the Messenger is objectively better than the HP. The HP has very minimal, arguably negligible, advantages in some stats but no elemental properties. This makes the Messenger superior for PvE and marginally worse for PvP, but only in the event that I want to purposefully put myself at a disadvantage by using something other than an exotic hand cannon. Like, maybe there are scout rifles out there with better stats than the Fang, but they would be a poor PvE choice and never see a match in PvP.

In short, the Messenger is better to me because it's clearly better than the HP for the situations where I'd actually use either gun.

I think it's clear the Pilgrim is only mentioned because of PvP. It's honest to say it's fantastic even if it sucks in PvE (it doesn't but that's besides the point; even then) because people clearly mean Crucible here. It's like saying Jewel is better than The Last Word because it's a lot better in PvP than it is worse in PvE.

What people mean is that, however marginal, HP is better than Messenger in crucible. And considering people look for God rolls, max AA snipers and whatever, minute advantages are certainly recognized and optimized around in this community.

I really fear I wrote a lot and it doesn't make any sense - after drinks GAF is confused GAF?

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

If I had the choice id use the messenger for PvE (element permitting) and a HC or scout for PvP.

If I wanted to use a pulse rifle I'd use Red Death.

There's no exotics in the special or heavy category that is rather use over an exotic primary for PvP, minus maybe Truth, but with a perfect Radeghasts Fury that's good enough.

Edit: Why is the black theme on mobile so fucking ugly compared to my laptop?

 

[PrivateWHudson]

We still lose a lot lol

That sucks. Pulling in all the heavy hitters with a group of six.

 

[ocean]

I can confirm that 1 is better than 2. Who likes to be number 2 after all. Fuck your math.

""- Hand Cannons while reading about Pulse Debates. Like: why?

 

[Lima]

Yeah if I were to use a pulse it would be the red death. For the reason that WYL uses one over Messenger etc.

To cancel the Thorn DOT.

 

[Trakan]

I will stand by my assertion that the Messenger is objectively better than the HP. The HP has very minimal, arguably negligible, advantages in some stats but no elemental properties. This makes the Messenger superior for PvE and marginally worse for PvP, but only in the event that I want to purposefully put myself at a disadvantage by using something other than an exotic hand cannon. Like, maybe there are scout rifles out there with better stats than the Fang, but they would be a poor PvE choice and never see a match in PvP.

In short, the Messenger is better to me because it's clearly better than the HP for the situations where I'd actually use either gun.

We're strictly talking PVP. Nobody uses the Pilgrim in PVE.

 

[zewone]

If I had the choice id use the messenger for PvE (element permitting) and a HC or scout for PvP.

If I wanted to use a pulse rifle I'd use Red Death.

There's no exotics in the special or heavy category that is rather use over an exotic primary for PvP, minus maybe Truth, but with a perfect Radeghasts Fury that's good enough.

Edit: Why is the black theme on mobile so fucking ugly compared to my laptop?

If I wanted to be a try hard all the time, I'd only use TLW or Thorn.

I like to play to enjoy myself (and still able to win) and that includes variety of primaries. My KD/R would be best if I only used hand cannons and blink shotguns and final round snipers, but I don't want to play like that.

And Messenger and Pilgrim are better than Red Death as they both provide consistent 2 shot kills.

Yeah if I were to use a pulse it would be the red death. For the reason that WYL uses one over Messenger etc.

To cancel the Thorn DOT.

That's a fair point, but having used the Red Death to escape Thorn a few times, I'd prefer the user to be dead in 2 shots rather than a slow health regen that might save me.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

We're strictly talking PVP. Nobody uses the Pilgrim in PVE.

In which case why not use Red Death?

There no point in using an exotic in any other slot apart from primary for PvP.

 

[Trakan]

In which case why not use Red Death?

There no point in using an exotic in any other slot apart from primary for PvP.

Red Death is significantly worse than Pilgrim or Messenger. Stability is the most important stat on a pulse.

 

[ocean]

I have respect for people who use something other than Hand Cannons in PvP or PvE too for that matter. They're like vegans, it makes sense on paper but it just sounds so weird. Bonus: AR users are hardcore.

 

[ReignofSparrows]

I think it's clear the Pilgrim is only mentioned because of PvP. It's honest to say it's fantastic even if it sucks in PvE (it doesn't but that's besides the point; even then) because people clearly mean Crucible here. It's like saying Jewel is better than The Last Word because it's a lot better in PvP than it is worse in PvE.

What people mean is that, however marginal, HP is better than Messenger in crucible. And considering people look for God rolls, max AA snipers and whatever, minute advantages are certainly recognized and optimized around in this community.

I really fear I wrote a lot and it doesn't make any sense - after drinks GAF is confused GAF?

Nah, it makes perfect sense, but I am trying to cut through the optimization talk and look at the bigger picture. For instance, go back a few months and you will see post after post talking about the LGH, even when people were asking for good Trials snipers. You can talk about AA or fire rate all you want, but you can't put an objective value on the ability to one shot through revive, so you have to examine the use case. I stood by it being a terrible Trials sniper for that reason despite people gushing over its stats.

I think the same is true here. There is no legitimate argument that the Messenger is better than the HP in terms of its possible perks/stats. However, we're talking about guns that are worse than other options in their slot. So it seems to be much ado about nothing from my perspective.

 

[igordennis]

Bonus: AR users are hardcore.

Lmao so true. I still see some S U R O S R E G I M E sometimes in pvp.

 

[zewone]

I have respect for people who use something other than Hand Cannons in PvP or PvE too for that matter. They're like vegans, it makes sense on paper but it just sounds so weird. Bonus: AR users are hardcore.

Say you love pizza. Do you want to eat pizza everyday?

I wouldn't. I'd get bored if I only used the same primary every time I loaded up Crucible.

 

[ocean]

In which case why not use Red Death?

There no point in using an exotic in any other slot apart from primary for PvP.

Red Death has a theoretically better TTK because it's also a 2 shot and has better RoF. But stability is paramount to actually getting a 2-shot since it has to land the crit. RD might get a double tap more quickly, but HP/Measenger crucially get those double taps more consistently.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

If I wanted to be a try hard all the time, I'd only use TLW or Thorn.

I like to play to enjoy myself (and still able to win) and that includes variety of primaries. My KD/R would be best if I only used hand cannons and blink shotguns and final round snipers, but I don't want to play like that.

And Messenger and Pilgrim are better than Red Death as they both provide consistent 2 shot kills.



That's a fair point, but having used the Red Death to escape Thorn a few times, I'd prefer the user to be dead in 2 shots rather than a slow health regen that might save me.

I'm the same. I like to use different weapons. Hell I'll use sidearms in PvP all game for lols

But although RD is statistically worse, it can and will cancel out the Thorn DoT, which like everyone uses nowadays.

Red Death is significantly worse than Pilgrim or Messenger. Stability is the most important stat on a pulse.

See above. Yes technically it is, but it can also technically stop you from dying when you need it most.

 

[Namikaze1]

Fuck this asshole! Guy is clearly cheating.

He's taking C from across the map.

He's shotgunning everyone after being shotgunned dozens of time.

 

[PedroLumpy]

In which case why not use Red Death?

HP is more stable. Easier to land those headshot bursts. Obviously Red Death has the regen, but I'd still give the edge to HP. Your mileage may vary however.

 

[zewone]

Red Death has a theoretically better TTK because it's also a 2 shot and has better RoF. But stability is paramount to actually getting a 2-shot since it has to land the crit. RD might get a double tap more quickly, but HP/Measenger crucially get those double taps more consistently.

If a player is running max armor, it takes 3 shots to kill with Red Death.

HP/Messenger are still 2 shot kills against max armor.

 

[todd360]

Guy we just fought couldn't be killed and he locked special ammo somehow. I'm so salty right now.

 

[lt519]

anyone for a quick NF? psn rarbusto

 

[ReignofSparrows]

Guy we just fought couldn't be killed and he locked special ammo somehow. I'm so salty right now.

XO, Noomi, and I were in a group where one Warlock was just hanging out around B the whole game with a lag shield. Couldn't be damaged. Just chillin' and killin.'

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

Red Death has a theoretically better TTK because it's also a 2 shot and has better RoF. But stability is paramount to actually getting a 2-shot since it has to land the crit. RD might get a double tap more quickly, but HP/Measenger crucially get those double taps more consistently.

HP is more stable. Easier to land those headshot bursts. Obviously Red Death has the regen, but I'd still give the edge to HP. Your mileage may vary however.

Ultimately I think it all comes down to play style more than anything.

I am comfortable enough to control the recoil on RD well enough to consistently land the shots I need so the stability/recoil doesn't bother me as much.

Some people would prefer the stability and consistency of HP instead.

For me RD beats out HP. Both are 2 burst kills but RD has a faster RoF with a quicker TTK IF you can control the recoil.

Although I'd rather use a scout rifle or HC. Which brings me to a new point, exotic scout rifle in TTK? Has to be eh?

 

[Reluctant-Hero]

Just watch a video on the Fang Ir Yut. Shit, man, I need one. My VoC is cool and all, but Third Eye is too good. Also I found that I've become lazier with the VoC. Just holding down the trigger for auto fire instead of placing my shots.

I used a Badger CCL up until HoW and I loved the shit out if it with Hammer Forged. Fang of Ir Yut will be a good upgrade.

 

[PuMa]

I am Hopscotch Pilgrim.

Wait, I thought you were Warlock?

 

[ReignofSparrows]

Just watch a video on the Fang Ir Yut. Shit, man, I need one. My VoC is cool and all, but Third Eye is too good. Also I found that I've become lazier with the VoC. Just holding down the trigger for auto fire instead of placing my shots.

I used a Badger CCL up until HoW and I loved the shit out if it with Hammer Forged. Fang of Ir Yut will be a good upgrade.

Fang is fucking awesome. Solid all around and best primary to use in PoE in the game, imo.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

Just watch a video on the Fang Ir Yut. Shit, man, I need one. My VoC is cool and all, but Third Eye is too good. Also I found that I've become lazier with the VoC. Just holding down the trigger for auto fire instead of placing my shots.

I used a Badger CCL up until HoW and I loved the shit out if it with Hammer Forged. Fang of Ir Yut will be a good upgrade.

Yeah fang is awesome. Second best CE weapon, after BH. (Soon to be first unless Necro becomes a monster )

Totally destroys enemies on Arc burn weeks too for us Fatebringerless peasants.

 

[Doge]

Red Death has a theoretically better TTK because it's also a 2 shot and has better RoF. But stability is paramount to actually getting a 2-shot since it has to land the crit. RD might get a double tap more quickly, but HP/Measenger crucially get those double taps more consistently.

If you want to look at it from a PvP perspective, the red dead will be the better gun because it can keep you in the fight longer, unlike the messenger, and pilgrim. Even if you land the double tap, who is to say you will survive the next battle? Red death increases your odds in surviving the next battle if you finish the first because of regen.

 

[ocean]

If a player is running max armor, it takes 3 shots to kill with Red Death.

HP/Messenger are still 2 shot kills against max armor.

34 per crit pellet? 3 in a burst. So double tap is 34*3*2=204.

Should be enough for anyone not wearing The Ram no?

 

[zewone]

If you want to look at it from a PvP perspective, the red dead will be the better gun because it can keep you in the fight longer, unlike the messenger, and pilgrim. Even if you land the double tap, who is to say you will survive the next battle? Red death increases your odds in surviving the next battle if you finish the first because of regen.

Yes, but you have to get the kill first.

You're more likely to lose a firefight with the Red Death and it's 3 shot kill vs the other two's 2 shot kill.

 

[ReignofSparrows]

If you want to look at it from a PvP perspective, the red dead will be the better gun because it can keep you in the fight longer, unlike the messenger, and pilgrim. Even if you land the double tap, who is to say you will survive the next battle? Red death increases your odds in surviving the next battle if you finish the first because of regen.

Come on, man, I threw you a bone by purposefully shifting the discussion. The Messenger/HP are going to give you a significantly better chance to win your first encounter. You can't stay in the fight when you are dead. And how many people win a one on one and then tear ass into another encounter with half health? It's simply better to have a weapon that lets you get the first kill as opposed to one that lets you re-engage with another enemy, which is why the max range, low fire rate shotguns are so good and TLW is so good despite it being very tough to get two kills without needing a reload.

 

[zewone]

34 per crit pellet? 3 in a burst. So double tap is 34*3*2=204.

Should be enough for anyone not wearing The Ram no?

My bad, I was looking at the data from before the pulse buff where it did 32*3*2 = 192

 

[Lima]

34 per crit pellet? 3 in a burst. So double tap is 34*3*2=204.

Should be enough for anyone not wearing The Ram no?

It does 36 with aggressive ball. Kills anyone but a ram max armor warlock in 2 bursts. I have no idea what he is talking about.

 

[deadduck]

I prefer the HP (reddot, braced frame, feeding, headseaker) over messenger, but they are both top tier. Very, very little in it.