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Destiny |OT35| Time to Explain At Last

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Frenden

Banned
I don't agree. Those posts may not have been the greatest examples but I think it's OK, important even, to highlight and critique the overall tone in the thread, because it can become a bit pervasive and self-fulfilling at times.

Just my $.02.

Eh, if I think something's wrong, I'm going to talk about it. Are we not allowed to speak critically of the thing we're sinking shitloads of time into?

i don't get this. why are people surprised or mad about getting stuff near or at 310? do you not remember normal mode? stuff started at 300 there, and you eventually got more stuff to bring you closer to 310. why wouldn't you expect to get some stuff at 310 in your first hard mode runs?

Because double-leveled RNG feels bad regardless of precedent? Purple engrams turning blue sucked. Raid gear dropping on the low side? Sucks.
 
I still have 297 boots for my Titan after 2 HM runs

feel my pain

B-O43nwIgAAQ3O1.png
 
i don't get this. why are people surprised or mad about getting stuff near or at 310? do you not remember normal mode? stuff started at 300 there, and you eventually got more stuff to bring you closer to 310. why wouldn't you expect to get some stuff at 310 in your first hard mode runs?

Because it feels bad

Because after you do hard mode, it's very possible you will have not made any progress

Because when you get drops, there is a chance you will not make any progress

That isn't fun. That doesn't feel good. That doesn't make me want to play hard mode again.
 
Eh, if I think something's wrong, I'm going to talk about it. Are we not allowed to speak critically of the thing we're sinking shitloads of time into?



Because double-leveled RNG feels bad regardless of precedent? Purple engrams turning blue sucked. Raid gear dropping on the low side? Sucks.

this has been the game since it released. guess what guys? this game is heavily dependent on rng. maybe stop expecting something else?
 

Frenden

Banned

Nothing makes me like you more than your repeated use of the sad Jordan emote. #blessed

this has been the game since it released. guess what guys? this game is heavily dependent on rng. maybe stop expecting something else?

But double level RNG hasn't been in the game since release--at least not since purples stopped turning into blues because, guess what, people hated it. Previous raids didn't drop 28 or 30 versions of items. What game have you been playing?

And pay attention to my language. Regardless of precedent, it feels bad. Am I not allowed to have that opinion and share it?
 

Afrocious

Member
i don't get this. why are people surprised or mad about getting stuff near or at 310? do you not remember normal mode? stuff started at 300 there, and you eventually got more stuff to bring you closer to 310. why wouldn't you expect to get some stuff at 310 in your first hard mode runs?

Because being 310 does nothing to help you out in HM KF.

The one positive thing about NM KF was each piece of gear technically got you closer to 300, which is where Oryx was capped.
 

zewone

Member
this has been the game since it released. guess what guys? this game is heavily dependent on rng. maybe stop expecting something else?
They proclaimed they fixed the #forever29 problem but they actually made it worse by having it drop from 310-320.

Whereas to combat forever29 you just needed the drop. You didn't have to worry about the light.
 

LiK

Member
Well, I guess no Oryx for me for now. Glad the reset isn't as far away. I wanna finish this. Hoping I can do Oryx with another group over the weekend or just try again next week.
 
I can see both sides. Sometimes we vent our frustrations in a short and to-the-point manner. It doesn't help solve anything or help anyone understand truly why, but it does show the frustration level.

I think something new and frustrating usually begins with a "fuck such and such" and later expressed in more detail.

But yea it's definitely not good for the thread or our community when it's so much and reading those posts don't say why (even though most of us probably know why).

It all shows how much passion we have for the game.

Idk I think maybe each hard mode raid clear from beginning to end should open up another chest at the very end that guarantees a 320 item, completely random. You might get 320 boots again but I don't think most people would complain.

Like a card you carry that keeps track of when you cross each checkpoint. When your card is filled, you're able to open the extra chest.
 
Nothing makes me like you more than your repeated use of the sad Jordan emote. #blessed



But it hasn't. Previous raids didn't drop 28 or 30 versions of items. What game have you been playing?

And pay attention to my language. Regardless of precedent, it feels bad. Am I not allowed to have that opinion and share it?

like i said, it's different variations of the same arguments. in vog people didn't complain about getting low level stuff, they complained that they didn't get the armor piece that they needed. "what's the point in doing the raid if i never get the boots?". people keep expecting RNG to not be a factor for some reason.

you're welcome to feel bad about different things, but maybe you should move on from the game if these problems are still keeping you from having fun.
 
I think Bungie was lying about saying HM was made before NM. I can't prove it, but the changes are so random.

HM KF could've been capped at 300 and been suitable for the NM version of the raid tbqh.

Eh, I wouldn't necessarily say that. It makes sense to me for the most part.

Totems: same

Warpriest: Occulus eats a rune stone and gives that power to Warpriest. Makes sense to scale that part down so people can get comfortable the rest of the fight. It's just such a simple fight they might as well left it in, it doesn't change your strategy at all. Atheon Detain wasn't much but at least you had to change the strat slightly.

Golgi: Unstable Light... is kinda random, haha. I mean somebody in the pit should be clearing adds anyway so making one person hop out of the pool isn't really an "extra plate to spin." It just decides for you who is going to clear adds.

Daughters: Getting a breather between DPS cycles makes sense as a NM adjustment. Pacing is demanding, give players a little break.

Oryx: Light Eating Knights do feel like an extra plate but only due to under leveling making it hard to kill ogres and so easy to die. They don't make you think on your feet, they just make you die because they spawn so late.

Honestly I'm fine if this is what HM raids are like. They can't invest a ton of resources into unique content only a fraction of players will see. I just wish they wouldn't hype it as something it's not.
 

E92 M3

Member
I do like that all exotics five guaranteed 310 after 311 or higher. Happy to say that I have my Warlock and Titan both at 311 without switching weapons. If I share, one can 313 or so.

Still, Bungie, ZERO rewards for a challenging encounter is a failure.
 

Frenden

Banned
like i said, it's different variations of the same arguments. in earlier vog people didn't complain about getting low level stuff, they complained that they didn't get the armor piece that they needed. "what's the point in doing the raid if i never get the boots?"

you're welcome to feel bad about different things, but maybe you should move on from the game if these problems are still keeping you from having fun.

Dude. You aren't getting it. The problem is that you have to wade through TWO LEVELS OF RNG now.

Not only do you need the drop, ala the old boots problem, but now you need to be lucky enough to BOTH get the boots AND have it drop at the higher level. It blows. And I'm not quitting a game I like and have 1000's of hours in just because I have criticisms of the endgame content. Pfft.
 
i don't get this. why are people surprised or mad about getting stuff near or at 310? do you not remember normal mode? stuff started at 300 there, and you eventually got more stuff to bring you closer to 310. why wouldn't you expect to get some stuff at 310 in your first hard mode runs?

I'm just whining because everything has been either 310 or 311. I'm not actually mad. I don't get mad at this game for real.
 

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
I'm mad there's no rainbow Horn with 20 wolfpack rounds and 10 ammo in reserve. Every game needs an OP weapon which destroys bosses.
 

Zocano

Member
Are people managing to do Oryx more consistently now?

I'm mad there's no rainbow Horn with 20 wolfpack rounds and 10 ammo in reserve. Every game needs an OP weapon which destroys bosses.

Eeeeh.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.

This game should have a healthy item choice ecosystem and having one specific weapon mutes that outright (that's what happened with Fatebringer/VoC and Gjallarhorn).
 
I do like that all exotics five guaranteed 310 after 311 or higher. Happy to say that I have my Warlock and Titan both at 311 without switching weapons. If I share, one can 313 or so.

Still, Bungie, ZERO rewards for a challenging encounter is a failure.
Huh that's not true!

I saw unstable decrypt an exotic helm @ light 313 and the helm became a 290 knucklehead radar.
 
Dude. You aren't getting it. The problem is that you have to wade through TWO LEVELS OF RNG now.

Not only do you need the drop, ala the old boots problem, but now you need to be lucky enough to BOTH get the boots AND have it drop at the higher level. It blows.

nope, i get it.

why is 320 so important to you if nobody else is getting there for a while either?
 
i'm siding with Zoba as well.

He's not wrong that the end game is worse compared to VoG. I remember Hawkian, many moons ago, making an excellent post saying that we shouldn't depend on RNG drops in order to progress through our level.

And now? That's all we have. RNG on top of RNG in order to progress. There is no safety net progression for people that don't raid. Read Hawkians post-It's sad that we don't have that option anymore.

Huh that's not true!

I saw unstable decrypt an exotic helm @ light 313 and the helm became a 290 knucklehead radar.

Mhm, I was there.
 

Dante316

Member
1% of 1% are never satisfied. Game is based on RNG and people are shocked they haven't reached highest lvl possible in less than 12 hours.

The game is designed to play weekly and hoping you get what you want as you are having fun. Don't think of it as a job!
 
nope, i get it.

why is 320 so important to you if nobody else is getting there for a while either?

It takes every item to be 320 to be 320. It's not about getting every single item 320 right now, it's the fact that people are not only getting little to 1 drop, but the drop(s) have been typically low 310s. That means at that rate (which of course is hard to tell after 1 character clear but it's all we have to judge on it atm), it'll be until Destiny 2 that we can be 100% 320
 

lt519

Member
I know it gets negative in here but if you set expectations that you aren't going to beat content 10-15 levels lower than you are supposed to be it was a pretty enjoyable raid. got the majority if the people it was the same deal with NM, it took a few weeks.

NM was really stale because it got too easy, at least this is a new challenge. I may have gotten lucky with my drops but we decided to not even attempt Oryx and just run the raid a couple times up to him because we knew we were under leveled. I took two characters from 307/308 to 312 each, pretty stoked about that and I know in 1-2 weeks I'll be taking down Oryx with ease. It at least isn't cheap, the new mechanics aren't necessarily hard but they are new things to juggle that are fair.
 
Truly the darkest time. I don't see some/most of the criticisms of HM. I agree most of the weapons suck (scout is good, sniper okay, machine gun awesome, shotgun is a shotgun ) but I think people are looking back more fondly on VOG HM because of the weapons they were chasing. Totaling it up I would bet Kings Fall made more changes in HM than Vog. This increases the amount of hardship to get through content. Main difference being that the weapons you were chasing were iconic and awesome. Now you are chasing a level which will mostly just be useful for the raid. They desperately need more endgame content. If that's just old raids raised to current light levels along with revamped weapons in each that would be awesome. Throwing in taken enemies along with it would be great

HM VoG wasn't terribly different but it wasn't hyped as such either which is the main issue here (along with the lack of compelling new loot like you said).

Speaking of Taken in raids, I'm confused why there are so many Hive and so few Taken in KF. I enjoy the varied Taken abilities and it feels like a real missed opportunity to not have more engagements designed around them. I killed enough Thralls, Knights, Wizards and Ogres in Crota's End to last me a life time.
 

Frenden

Banned
nope, i get it.

why is 320 so important to you if nobody else is getting there for a while either?

It's not so much that reaching max is SO important, though that is the natural endgame of, well, the game. It's that double RNG feels bad and sucks and shouldn't be how the endgame loot table works if you want drops to feel good.

Imagine playing VoG as a vanilla player. You defeat HM Atheon. You finally get your helm after your ninth attempt.

It dropped at 28. Get fucked! (That sucks.)
 
You're slipping into the logic that begs the question "Why play videogames?"

not really. people always expect things to be handed to them immediately in this game, even though it's been obvious fromday 1 that this a game where you grind and grind and grind.

there's always been a weird sense of entitlement with the fanbase of this game. it's kind of like the people who rage about some like NTTE being time-gated, even though they didn't know the weapon was in the game an hour earlier. then the same people complain about having nothing to do when they get all the stuff they want.

i just wish people could be more honest about with themselves about this game. you grind the same content over and over to get loot, so you can grind the same stuff at higher levels.
 
I'll just throw in my 2 motes.

The end game in The Taken King is missing three crucial things from year one - challenge, gear chase, and payoff.

Challenge: When you hit light 300 (which is not that difficult if you've raided a few times), you are overleveled for everything in the game except the Raid. In Year One, most of the content was at max level, so reaching Level 30 was desirable to benefit from the damage resistance. In Year Two however, Weekly Strikes and Daily story missions are not max level. The only encounter we are leveling up for is Hard Mode. This means that if you do not run the Raid, there is no reason to hit the level cap; consequently, there is no reason to organize a group run the Raid with.

Why do we play Halo on a higher difficulty? We want challenge. We want to outsmart puzzles and overcome insurmountable odds. We play the challenging content in Destiny for the same reason, and it is through overcoming that challenge that we are rewarded with better gear to prepare us for the next challenge - gear that could even change the way we play the game.

Gear Chase: We used to share checkpoints for weapon drops - that's how coveted weapons from Year One were. Take away their elements and they are still coveted because their base stats were really fucking good - absolutely too good, but that's why the content was replayed as much as it was. Vault of Glass in itself is fun, but it's not 12 months worth of replayability fun without the weapons that were part of it and the stories of obtaining them. Almost every weapon was worth getting from that Raid.

We are running the most difficult content over and over because we want the best guns in the game. We want the best guns to feel powerful and get ready for the next challenge. We celebrate those moments when RNG blesses us with what we want, and throw ourselves into the dark corners of time when it doesn't. That equates to replay value week after week by our own volition - not through arbitrary time gates - and we know that the reward is worth it because the guns are fucking amazing.

Why level up for the most difficult content to run the most difficult content for guns that are not amazing? The satisfaction of beating Oryx dissipates when you open the chest week after week and either find nothing or a weapon that may as well be a doorstopper.

There can still be good weapons in the game without trivializing the encounters - certainly not anymore than they already are by being overleveled. A well designed and mechanically intensive encounter is not going to fall apart when we bring good weapons to the battle. Our good weapons are going to make the encounter more fun because we feel powerful after putting in the work to get there.


Payoff: And that's the root of these problems. The work we put in is disproportionate to what we're getting out of it. Destiny needs something that makes players hungry. It does not need exotic quests that roll out every week for one day only before disappearing again. It does not need lengthy quests that reward the player with a gun they'll use once. And it absolutely does not need less of the materials to upgrade the weapons when we want to try them out.

Variety is an illusion because people will always seek the best guns; Destiny does not need variety, because that gives the player too many choices and consequentially introduces mediocrity when those choices are distilled to be balanced similarly to one another. What is the difference between Vendor weapons and Raid weapons? One looks like a slab of meat, and the other is something you actually use.

Destiny needs direction and it needs focus. Give players builds to chase after and then make the content difficult as fuck so that those builds are way more desirable. I want to see Oryx drop the most bad ass Solar hand cannon, and then level 42 Nightfall with Solar Burn every other week. Boom, now people are replaying the Raid because they want to blow through that Nightfall.

In laymen's terms, removing elemental damage from weapons dropping from the most difficult content in the game (and by extension, making the base stats on those weapons complete trash) is almost single-handedly responsible for the problem with the end game. The other problem is again - the payoff of running the Raid, seeing gear drop that isn't your level, and feeling like you wasted time when you realized you were chasing after something you don't even need.

At the end of the day, we're using guns, not armor. It's more fun to shoot an OP gun than it is to wear stronger armor.

Luke, I've disagreed with your philosophy for Year Two ever since I got the Touch of Malice and realized that it was only worth using for 5 minutes a week. I hope the team reconsiders these decisions, otherwise I can't see Year Two's longevity coming anywhere close to that of Year One. It hasn't for me.

Perhaps we are no longer chasing after max level and strong builds because there is no longer an expansion with more difficult content on the horizon. But I wouldn't imagine that Bungie would want to design the game to encourage players to play it less than they did before, because that's exactly what The Taken King is doing.

Also, I play Halo on Heroic when I want to enjoy myself and Legendary when I want to be a masochist. If you guys think being underleveled in Destiny is bad, play Halo 2 on Legendary.
 

KanameYuuki

Member
Popcorn.gif

it's not me that's salty for once, glad I don't have that much desire to do HM besides only once for the trophy.

I feel the same way, and being honest there is no point in being 310+ for the rest of the content, but I would have really liked if I completed HM today, stuck on all 3 characters :
 
It's not so much that reaching max is SO important, though that is the natural endgame of, well, the game. It's that double RNG feels bad and sucks and shouldn't be how the endgame loot table works if you want drops to feel good.

Imagine playing VoG as a vanilla player. You defeat HM Atheon. You finally get your helm after your ninth attempt.

It dropped at 28. Get fucked! (That sucks.)

well if you defeat hm oryx for your 9th time and still are only getting 310 stuff, then feel free to complain.
 

Mindlog

Member
I know it gets negative in here but if you set expectations that you aren't going to beat content 10-15 levels lower than you are supposed to be it was a pretty enjoyable raid.

NM was really stale because it got too easy, at least this is a new challenge. I may have gotten lucky with my drops but we decided to not even attempt Oryx and just run the raid a couple times up to him because we knew we were under leveled. I took two characters from 307/308 to 312 each, pretty stoked about that and I know in 1-2 weeks I'll be taking down Oryx with ease. It at least isn't cheap, the new mechanics aren't necessarily hard but they are new things to juggle that are fair.
The amusing consecutive Golgoroth kills with only 2 people alive doesn't hurt.

Got both my Warlock and Titan to 311+ (punk f'n rock) so I'm happy with that. Now all of my exotics can reach 310 without wasting shards and precious weapon parts. Hard mode was fun. I've grown too complacent with the cakewalk that is normal mode and have to break a few bad habits that kept getting me killed unnecessarily. With the 310 Raid Scout and 311+ light I can kill most enemies in the final encounter fine, but we just couldn't stagger. All in due time.
 

Kensuke

Member
Got the triple clear. Final run was sloppy because everyone was tired and rapidly losing focus. Overall I'd say HM was a disappointing because it wasn't adventurous enough. Why not put pistons in surprising spots? Put enemy snipers on the ship jumping puzzle? Anything really to keep players on their toes and to surprise them with some twist. Now NM strats mostly worked perfectly well and the few extra elements were easy to deal with. Only the Oryx fight felt like it really evolved a little because you need even tighter teamwork and pacing.

Can't say I mind the way Bungie is doing loot now. Sure, it's a bummer if you get a new drop between 310-314 light, but this last step is supposed to be a grind. At this point raising the light level is just for prestige, because the extra damage is hardly noticeable. You can't get to 320 anyway, because there is no 320 artifact yet.
 
It takes every item to be 320 to be 320. It's not about getting every single item 320 right now, it's the fact that people are not only getting little to 1 drop, but the drop(s) have been typically low 310s. That means at that rate (which of course is hard to tell after 1 character clear but it's all we have to judge on it atm), it'll be until Destiny 2 that we can be 100% 320

my point is that getting over 310 is only relevant compared to other players. you can be 310 for HM, and if going from 310-320 is as hard as everyone thinks it will be, then you won't have to worry about facing many people close to 320 in trials.
 
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