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[commish]

Additional Ammo and increased reload speeds are meaningful perks. There are also PvE vs. PvP perks and just plain wanting to have a varied amount of armor for aesthetic purposes.

You can not simply say, "Destiny is not the type of game where you min/max, collect everything and try out different gear" when plenty of people do just that. The gear has stats, so you can min/max that. Plenty of people collect every weapon under the sun. The same can be done with armor (I have a huge collection of Hunter capes in my vault because I like the various looks).

Okay, well I don't think additional ammo/reload speed has a meaningful impact on the game. My success in any encounter has never hinged on me having those perks. I consider meaningful perks to be those perks that actually do something unique, e.g., outlaw, firefly, etc. I wouldn't spend hours farming gear simply to carry 4 additional sniper rounds, but I readily acknowledge that some do. There are other games (like Diablo 3) where min-maxing is much more important and, really, possible, given the wide variety of gear/stats/perks the game gives. That's why I say Destiny isn't really that type of game. Compared to other games, there's just not much variety and impact in the differences between gear.

Disagree.

Reload speed bonus for different types of guns alone is a good reason to have 4 sets of gloves for example.

Would you farm HM week after week, all those hours, simply for increased reload speed for shotguns, pulse, etc? You crazy

 

[toastyToast]

Wow. Defiance of Yazmin with Hot Swap is the truth. Getting some completely bonkers shots off with this thing. Turned me into a crack shot sniper and I'm garbage lol

 

[Acidote]

Who wants to do a quick NF?

 

[Kyoufu]

The only thing that can save King's Fall endgame is if Challenge modes reintroduce that loot chase that kept us playing for a long time in Year 1, otherwise, I won't be playing much.

 

[ethomaz]

Raid gears RNGs could be fine if they are always above you light level.

For example I'm 308:

315 Gloves = Acceptable
306 Legs = Not acceptable
309 Chest = Acceptable

So do RNG above your light level so you will progress... not that bullshit below my light level.

 

[wanderjahr]

Wow. Defiance of Yazmin with Hot Swap is the truth. Getting some completely bonkers shots off with this thing. Turned me into a crack shot sniper and I'm garbage lol

Love me some hot swap. Susanoo got me hooked on it. Rolled an Imago Loop with it and firelfly. Waiting for a Hallowed Yazmin with hotswap to replace my regular one

 

[Trakan]

Does better already work when your super's up?

I don't think so.

 

[commish]

Raid gears RNGs could be fine if they are always above you light level.

For example I'm 308:

315 Gloves = Acceptable
306 Legs = Not acceptable
309 Chest = Acceptable

So do RNG above your light level so you will progress... not that bullshit below my light level.

That would go a long way to improving things.

 

[Acidote]

Hunter 308 looking for people for a nightfall.

 

[Takuan]

Anyone down for NM KF and/or VoG?

 

[Kor of Memory]

No because there's nothing else to chase, so if they changed it to where you got guaranteed 310/320 drops they'd have to replace that Light level chase with something else, like you know, strong loot like in Year 1 of Destiny.

So yes, if they changed it back to Year 1's endgame I'd keep playing.

Sadly, it's too late for that now. They'd have to make strong loot worth using and add it to the current loot tables and we both know that won't happen. Maybe next time.

This isn't true at all. I'd still play KF HM because I'd want to use the Raid gear to infuse into gear I actually want.

Raid gear has perks designed around the raid, but I want gear that works better with my PvP stuff. I'd like to be able to infuse that stuff up.

If infuse is going to be the work around for transmog, then there needs to be a reliable way to get the numbers we need to do it.

 

[darkistheway]

Hunter 308 looking for people for a nightfall.

I will. Already have you on friend's list.

PSN:darkistheway

 

[LiK]

The only thing that can save King's Fall endgame is if Challenge modes reintroduce that loot chase that kept us playing for a long time in Year 1, otherwise, I won't be playing much.

if their challenge modes are also RNG loot, I'm not even touching it. fuck your emblems and shaders.

 

[Kor of Memory]

No because there's nothing else to chase, so if they changed it to where you got guaranteed 310/320 drops they'd have to replace that Light level chase with something else, like you know, strong loot like in Year 1 of Destiny.

So yes, if they changed it back to Year 1's endgame I'd keep playing.

Sadly, it's too late for that now. They'd have to make strong loot worth using and add it to the current loot tables and we both know that won't happen. Maybe next time.

if their challenge modes are also RNG loot, I'm not even touching it. fuck your emblems and shaders.

Don't care about emblems or shader, but I need that fucking grimoire/fragments.

 

[Acidote]

I will. Already have you on friend's list.

PSN:darkistheway

Ok, I'll be starting it while we find a 3rd.

 

[iCon]

Hunter 308 looking for people for a nightfall.

I'm down PSN MrCriminal

 

[Jinjo]

Yeah, the year 1 version. I think the year 2 Trials weapons all have new names.

The Water Star (Adept)	      Hand Cannon
Doctrine of Passing (Adept)   Auto Rifle
Reflection Sum (Adept)        Pulse Rifle
The Inward Lamp (Adept)	      Scout Rifle
Glass Promontory	      Sniper Rifle
Elevating Vision	      Fusion Rifle
Binary Dawn	              Shotgun
The Tamarind	              Rocket Launcher
The Unseeing Eye	      Machine Gun

So if Luke said there's no elemental primaries why do the ToO primaries have adept versions?

 

[Kyoufu]

This isn't true at all. I'd still play KF HM because I'd want to use the Raid gear to infuse into gear I actually want.

Raid gear has perks designed around the raid, but I want gear that works better with my PvP stuff. I'd like to be able to infuse that stuff up.

If infuse is going to be the work around for transmog, then there needs to be a reliable way to get the numbers we need to do it.

There's not enough gear options in this game for me to do King's Fall every week for the next 3-6 months or even longer and use the guaranteed drops to infuse into other gear.

 

[Homeboyd]

So if Luke said there's no elemental primaries why do the ToO primaries have adept versions?

Drop at higher light level likely (and look different like harrowed)

 

[EL CUCO]

The only thing that can save King's Fall endgame is if Challenge modes reintroduce that loot chase that kept us playing for a long time in Year 1, otherwise, I won't be playing much.

Same. Keeping my Blops 3 pre order just in case.

 

[zewone]

Wow, six?! How long have you been doing it now? I've only had two drop and about a dozen bonds lol

I went 3.17 in Rumble this morning with it and the Chaperone. I want more PRs like this. It's the archetype that feels right for me.

I have probably done it for about 4 hours total now.

Got 6 Grasps and 2 bonds.

It's my favorite as well. Everything else just feels too slow to me now.

 

[purg3]

Any xbox dudes using the Elite controller? I'll finally get to use mine tonight. What setup/config are you using if so?

 

[toastyToast]

So if Luke said there's no elemental primaries why do the ToO primaries have adept versions?

They're black and have Last Resort built in

 

[ethomaz]

That would go a long way to improving things.

I don't think so... if I'm 308 the game can give me a piece of 310, 315, 320, etc... it is way better than what is now and you will need to play.

That said the pourpose of the game is not have everybody at 320 light but something between 310-320... it is fine.

 

[E92 M3]

if their challenge modes are also RNG loot, I'm not even touching it. fuck your emblems and shaders.

Don't care about emblems or shader, but I need that fucking grimoire/fragments.

I want that black/red emblem. Been desiring it since TTK launched.

 

[Blunoise]

Anyone down for NM KF and/or VoG?

Looking to do a quick big as wel

 

[commish]

I don't think so... if I'm 308 the game can give me a piece of 310, 315, 320, etc... it is way better than what is now and you will need to play.

That said the pourpose of the game is not have everybody at 320 light but something between 310-320... it is fine.

Not sure I follow. I was agreeing with you and said it would improve things...

 

[xplicitone]

Yea it was a really cool feature for levelling up from 170 to 280, that we were basically forced to wear and use weapons/gear of the highest light. But when you're in the end game for weeks, you shouldn't be forced to wear raid crap. Infusing makes you drop light in most cases so it's hard to Infuse until you have multiple fodders of required light to get back to your original, for each piece of gear.

I want the high light gear for raid and keep it for the raid (armor and speed and reload in aura perks, etc), but also high light gear for other PVE and PvP activities especially for those activities where light level matters. I want loadouts! Different loadouts for different situations/content.

In the current state, it'll take forever. Especially when getting 310 Harrowed drops.

In 1 hard raid last week, I got 2x 300 normal drops and a 310 Harrowed drop. Probably terrible luck, but there's no progression in that whatsoever.

At least get 1 320 guaranteed random drop. If the perks sucks, fodder. Otherwise, great!

We have plenty of exotic gear we'd like to Infuse to get it higher and there's no other way. Or, exotic gear can be levelled higher by its own path regardless of the raid, since you can only equip 1 anyways. Plus, it should be Exotic for a reason. It's special. Different than anything else.

Also, why are helmets so damn rare? It's ridiculous. I lost count of how many raids I've done and I haven't seen a single helmet. When i do finally get one, it'll be low 300 and such a downer.

 

[ethomaz]

Not sure I follow. I was agreeing with you and said it would improve things...

Weird... I just missed the point lol I read you said not lol lol lol
Sorry.

 

[Strangelove77]

Anyone need a nightfall? Join on Vincentgrey

Edit: full

 

[lt519]

Same. Keeping my Blops 3 pre order just in case.

I swear that they have a formula for when the player base decline hits a certain slope value an exotic quest for Gjallahorn 2.0 will begin and it will involve getting a rare drop like the Crux from each of the raid bosses with "smart" loot that ensures it'll take you 4 months to get.

I'm pretty certain that a Weekly Heroic Raid with random modifiers would revitalize the games end-game content. Dunno how they'd do the loot, but it'd be super fun playing VoG with Void Burn, Juggler, and Grounded or something like that.

 

[Kor of Memory]

There's not enough gear options in this game for me to do King's Fall every week for the next 3-6 months or even longer and use the guaranteed drops to infuse into other gear.

I'm saying if the Raid bosses all had guaranteed drops at guaranteed max LL, then I'd be able to use those drops to infuse into other gear and build other full sets of armor alongside my raiding set.

As the system is currently, there is way to much chance at play, to the point that it'll take months to build a full set of Raid gear, and by that point I wont want to do it all again for a second set.

 

[Jinjo]

They're black and have Last Resort built in

So most difficult gun to obtain in the game has the most useless perk in the game built-in. Sweet. Bungie sure knows how to reward the player.

 

[Kyoufu]

I'm saying if the Raid bosses all had guaranteed drops at guaranteed max LL, then I'd be able to use those drops to infuse into other gear and build other full sets of armor alongside my raiding set.

As the system is currently, there is way to much chance at play, to the point that it'll take months to build a full set of Raid gear, and by that point I wont want to do it all again for a second set.

Yeah, I know what you're saying, but... what other gear? There's not a whole lot out there. Not enough to justify doing King's Fall for months.

 

[zewone]

Same. Keeping my Blops 3 pre order just in case.

Battlefront, man.

 

[Kor of Memory]

So most difficult gun to obtain in the game has the most useless perk in the game built-in. Sweet. Bungie sure knows how to reward the player.

It's one of those catch-22 scenarios.

How do you reward a top-tier PvP player without making their PvP experiences even easier?

It's like why we got elemental primaries at the Lighthouse.

If you give amazing PvP players even better PvP guns, then you're just going to create an even wider gap between the good and the better.

Yeah, I know what you're saying, but... what other gear? There's not a whole lot out there. Not enough to justify doing King's Fall for months.

A full Iron Banner set?
A full Trials set?
A full Dead Orbit/FWC/New Monarchy set?
A full Sublime set?
A full Crucible set?
A full Vanguard set?

 

[mehrmantrout]

I'm saying if the Raid bosses all had guaranteed drops at guaranteed max LL, then I'd be able to use those drops to infuse into other gear and build other full sets of armor alongside my raiding set.

As the system is currently, there is way to much chance at play, to the point that it'll take months to build a full set of Raid gear, and by that point I wont want to do it all again for a second set.

Exactly, thats what I've done with my Hunter everything is setup for PvP Gunslinger, Tier4 intellect/Discipline, pulse rifle reload Ahamkara etc etc... for raiding as a nightstalker its useless

My Warlock is just a total mess

 

[E92 M3]

So most difficult gun to obtain in the game has the most useless perk in the game built-in. Sweet. Bungie sure knows how to reward the player.

Bungie's philosophy for Y2 weapons is mediocre and balanced. Accidentally, an intern made swords strong

 

[DrDrizzay101]

For what it's worth I agree with you. I saw a post yesterday saying HM Oryx was on farm but it was getting boring and pointless because the drops weren't worth it. It's been 5 days since HM Oryx has been out and most people haven't even tried it, let alone beat Oryx. Sherpa some blind groups and have fun again. Split up your reset groups and don't run KF three times in a row for 5 hours straight and then complain it's getting stale. I don't know sometimes the 1% in this thread bother me. It's a bit insulting to be complaining about how easy and stale the raid is when someone like me hasn't beat it because I can't get on at reset time and/or find a experienced group later in the week. If I played with the same 5 people every time I'd be farming it now too. [/rant]

I know there are exceptions to the rule and a lot of people sherpa and help out but the complaining is a little much. RNG is gonna RNG, plenty of people are getting fantastic drops too, play for fun.

Not sure if you're referencing me but I did post yesterday about HM Oryx being on farm, drops were bad, and my reset group ran KF 3 times in a row for 5 hours straight.... so I could at least give a qualified response

-For me, saying something's "on farm" just means I understand the encounter. It might still be challenging and some clears could take an hour but I personally understand how the system works and what goes wrong each wipe. Its meant to be encouraging, never derogatory. I want everyone to have confidence beating it, instead of talking up the difficulty.

-HM loot tables are bad and should feel bad. They deserve criticism until Bungie at least acknowledges the issue or ideally improves it. If the topic hasn't warranted a front-page Reddit thread yet then clearly we have more work to do.

-Similar to loot tables, the raid design has issues that deserve discussion. Doesn't mean I'm not also having fun playing with friends. Fwiw NM has been out 7 weeks and I have 37 clears, HM has 14 clears in two weeks. No shortage of sherpa-derping and playing for fun, same as every other end game activity since launch.

Anyway, just some general thread clarification (whether or not you were referencing me).

 

[Namikaze1]

Anyone up for HM Oryx?

 

[Kyoufu]

It's one of those catch-22 scenarios.

How do you reward a top-tier PvP player without making their PvP experiences even easier?

It's like why we got elemental primaries at the Lighthouse.

If you give amazing PvP players even better PvP guns, then you're just going to create an even wider gap between the good and the better.



A full Iron Banner set?
A full Trials set?
A full Dead Orbit/FWC/New Monarchy set?
A full Sublime set?
A full Crucible set?
A full Vanguard set?

Is that list made for cosmetic reasons or is there a reason to have a full Crucible and full Iron Banner set? What's the point of full Faction sets?

Either way, that would take a lot less than 6 months to build when you're doing King's Fall 3 times a week with hypothetical guaranteed drops of max Light.

 

[EL CUCO]

Battlefront, man.

I had a lot of fun with the beta, but I don't trust EA/DICE to buy day one and dont like how they have more content in their DLC season pass than the launch game. I'll wait till I can buy the complete package all together

 

[stb]

Re: loot/progression:
- Just reinforcing the notion that recursive RNG, especially when one of those options is literally "nothing" is not good design, and appears to be a misguided attempt to artificially/"lazily" extend longevity
- I put "lazily" in quotes because I don't intend to imply that Bungie is "lazy", but that it's the low-hanging fruit compared to designing even more perks, weapons, armor, etc.
- It's just super frustrating to run a HM raid for a few hours and make literally no progress. Last night we did totems through Golgoroth, and while I did get one decent drop (312 ghost), I also got a handful of "shit" drops.
- I say "shit", because they're of ALMOST no use to me. My 6th set of gloves, at 300 light is only useful as infusion fodder. The problem is that my inventory and vault is so full of such fodder at this point, that I have to keep being more selective at what is kept for that purpose. I'm now fully back into the vault/inventory sliding puzzle, especially when it comes time to decode engrams. (Keep in mind that I'm only running my main at this point.)
- Kor's suggestion of something like mini etheric light seems like it'd be a good option. If I was confident that I'd *probably* get 1-2 of those, and could nudge my light level up even 1-2 points with each raid, I'd feel better about investing the time in it.
- The other suggestion of having HM armor and weapons be fixed at 320 and NM fixed at 310 seems reasonable, too. I'd rather know that when/if that piece of armor dropped, it'd be viable for whichever tier I was at OR infusing something to that level.

tl;dr: RNG that includes "nothing" isn't fun. RNG that has a high chance (50%+) of giving you stuff that offers no, or very little, progression isn't fun. Don't "extend" the game with stuff that isn't fun. Extend the game with horizontal progression, like the said they were intending to do. Honestly, if they just DID the stuff that they said or implied they were doing, the game would be fun AND have legs. I wish we knew where the disconnect was.

EDIT: I left out that I understand that light level doesn't matter, mechanically, very much between 310 and 320. The problem is that if you even have the possibility of hitting a new threshold, people are going to want to hit it and be disappointed when they don't make progress toward it. If it doesn't matter very much to the game, why bother with it? Just make everything that would be 311-319 roll at 320 instead. Take out that one RNGs, and you do no damage to the balance but make people feel better about drops. I don't think this would hurt longevity except for the small subset of people that are ONLY playing til they hit max light and don't care about perks, aesthetics, etc.

 

[LTWood12]

Anyone up for HM Oryx?

I will be in about 50 min.

 

[Dante316]

I will try to do oryx after work today. Not expecting great drops but hopefully is fun.

 

[toastyToast]

It's one of those catch-22 scenarios.

How do you reward a top-tier PvP player without making their PvP experiences even easier?

It's like why we got elemental primaries at the Lighthouse.

If you give amazing PvP players even better PvP guns, then you're just going to create an even wider gap between the good and the better.

In this instance there's the very very verrrry minor chance that someone can swing an elimination comeback due to Last Resort (lol). In a way the elemental primaries were more balanced for pvp

 

[Kyoufu]

Step 1, and this should be in a patch ASAP, is to take out the "nothing" drop chance from the raid.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY enjoys getting nothing from a boss.

 

[MagnetoWasRight]

So if Luke said there's no elemental primaries why do the ToO primaries have adept versions?

Drop at higher light level likely (and look different like harrowed)

Also they're showing up in the Bungie Armory with two fixed perks and one random one, for a total of three! The regular weapons have one fixed perk and one random, but they're not finalized on the Bungie Armory. The stats were all deleted.

 

[Kor of Memory]

Is that list made for cosmetic reasons or is there a reason to have a full Crucible and full Iron Banner set? What's the point of full Faction sets?

Either way, that would take a lot less than 6 months to build when you're doing King's Fall 3 times a week with hypothetical guaranteed drops of max Light.

I feel like you're missing the point.

The point is that the option should be there for anyone that wants to do it. Not that the system should be built around every players wanting a full max set of each possible armor configuration.

 

[LiK]

Don't trust EA/DICE to buy day one and dont like how they have more content in their DLC season pass than the launch game. I'll wait till I can buy the complete package all together

exactly, i'll be waiting for a BF sale instead or the GOTY edition.